Making sense out of verses 2:183 to 188
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Looking at verse 2183
If Siam is no food, no fluids, no sex from sunrise to night time for 3 days or 10 days or 30 days or 60 days or if it is not talking for any length of time...
MY QUESTION is How does the act of not eating, not drinking, not having sex from dawn to night or not talking (as some believe) lead a person to becoming a muttaqi?
I don't get it. How does not having sex result in tattaqun? How does going without food and water for one month out of the year make one tattaqun?
Ok - if such abstention make you muttaqi then shouldn't we be doing that everyday of our lives?
Why only one specific month out of the year?
I am very surprised at such questions.
However, I do think GS asked a good question "Could you tell me please what is muttaqui and tataqun?".
From my studies, "taqwa" (which is the word those words you mention is derived from) means God-conciousness, conscientiousness, piety, righteousness, forethoughtfulness. If your view is to the contrary, please let us know.
Assuming my understanding of "taqwa" is in the right area, let's continue...
MY QUESTION is How does the act of not eating, not drinking, not having sex from dawn to night or not talking (as some believe) lead a person to becoming a muttaqi?
I don't get it. How does not having sex result in tattaqun? How does going without food and water for one month out of the year make one tattaqun?
Firstly, 2183 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=183#(21831) says "may become tattaqna" or "may have/be tattaqna". It does NOT state it will make one X as a statement of fact.
This is important to understand. If you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it forth.
Secondly, sawm/abstinence, is only for those accepting/upholding Quran, wishing to be or consider themselves mumin/believer etc.
So, knowing this, let's move onto your questions...
Let's start with some basics...
If one is not engaged in the activities we are meant to abstain from, based on the common understanding of sawm, then this will give us more time for other things FACT.
If one is not satisfying their physical needs/desires, this usually shifts one's time/thoughts to other things, e.g. satisfying their mental/spiritual needs.
If one is not eating/drinking then this usually makes one experience thirst/hunger, thus likely making one empathetic/considerate of those who are poor who may experience this feeling regularly.
So, we can reasonably conclude a few things for one undergoing sawm
more time to do other things - certainly more time to think
there will likely be a shift in time/thoughts to non-physical desires
a likely increase in empathy for those in needIf we couple the above with the reasonable expectation that a mumin having more time will likely spend such time for productive efforts, we can clearly see some of the meanings of taqwa coming through, i.e.
God-conciousness, conscientiousness, piety, righteousness, forethoughtfulnessAnd as for why not undergo sawm/abstinence all the time, well there is no reason why one cannot, do so if you wish, but it is not an obligation. Bear in mind, there are other instances in Quran where undergoing sawm/abstinence is advised, for expiation etc.
Undergoing sawm/abstinence is trying to attain a result, and that is taqwa. People do many things in order to attain a result, whether it be exercise, meditation, change in diet etc etc and if they achieve the desired result they could continue with it to maintain it but there may be no reason to. It all depends.There are many things in Quran that will aid one's development of taqwa, sawm is just one of those things. Simple.
And as for why one specific time of year - bearing in mind sawm/abstinence is discussed at other times also - why not at a specific time of year? If others are undergoing sawm at the same time, it seems to make it easier, it seems to have a communal effect, and it may be helpful if certain events are being held, e.g. the hajj/symposium, when food provision for guests of the mumin hosts may be needed etc.
What interests me about your question is that you seem to imply you cannot think of any way in which the aim mentioned in 2183 could be attained. Put simply if one had to go without food/drink could this make one think more about others in such a situation and be more conscientious? If you answer yes it could do, then there is a possible reason/answer right there.
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What is the point of fasting? (Read the caps)
The month of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the month shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, THAT YOU MAY BE THANKFUL.
From my experience, the primary reason is so that we can be thankful and appreciate necessities we otherwise take for granted. Anyone who has fasted and gone without food and water, understands that feeling you get during the final hour of your fast, and that gratitude you feel when you finally get to feel the satisfaction of food and the replenishment of water. Things we otherwise don't appreciate.
Why not do it year round if it's good for us?
Because it's not natural to go without food and water all day. It's a challenge, a sacrifice. It's not supposed to be easy.Why is the Muslim world in bad condition despite following Gods command?
Most of them are doing it out of societal pressure. Not because they fear Allah and the day of judgment. If you're doing it without a purpose or reward, you're more likely to let it affect you negatively. It's not a divine challenge, it's just a pain in the ass you have to deal with if you don't believe in the day judgment. -
Peace @justamuslim,
If it took you 20+ years of study and reading, and you still do not get clear understanding, what hope there is for the rest of us who still did not engage in thus thorough examination?
It took me years to reject hadiths. When you are programmed and conditioned to think and believe in somethings and living a certain way, it is hard especially when people who have more knowledge than you telling you that you are committing shirk, following satan, lost, etc. But there are teenagers who came to reject and see the Truths just like that!
Could you tell me please what is muttaqui and tataqun?
I don't know what Saum is but whatever it is, Saum is something that you do which MAY (as wakas pointed out) result in you becoming tattaquna.
Tattaqun in verse 2183 has been translated by
Asad conscious of God
Y. Ali self restrain
Pictkhall ward of evil
Ahmed Ali righteous
Freeminds righteous
Corpus quran righteous
Islamicstudies.info righteousI go to the website islamicity.com often. You can search by word, topic, phonetic, verses. I try to understand what a word means by looking where the same word was used and thinking about it. I am not arabic speaking and never was good in grammar but I can think for myself if tattaquna is an action like "ward of evil" or characteristic like righteous.
Plugging in righteous and conscious in the word search, I go with Asad's translation that tattaquna means "conscious" relating to being conscious of God.
The Koran really explains itself and in verse2177, a person who is conscious of God (muttaqi) is described.
Tattaquna is also mentioned in 2187 and 189.
Whatever Saum is, the result is that it may make you conscious of God. when you are conscious of god, you can achieve a happy or peaceful state not just within yourself but also in society. Makes total sense.
So the emphasis and importance is on tattaquna. Saum is a method or means of becoming conscious of God.
@wakas,
The act of not eating, drinking, having sex from dawn to night or not talking (as some here say) in of itself DOES NOT result in tattaquna. This is my point.Sigh. I have to once again cut short and stop here for how.
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The act of not eating, drinking, having sex from dawn to night or not talking (as some here say) in of itself DOES NOT result in tattaquna. This is my point.
You still seem to be making the same error. I, nor Quran, said it will result in "tattaquna". I said "may".
IF you are trying to make a point and this point rests upon your view of Quran saying it will result in "tattaquna" - then please prove this first.
Do you not understand this simple point?Further, let's actually get some evidence/information so we can assess your claim to see if it holds weight. Simply saying something does not make it true.
If you are implying "tattaquna" specifically means "concious of God" - i.e. you are tying this word to "God" can you prove this via Quran? You may find chapter 9 useful for this.
For example someone might say the meaning of the word "muslim" is "submitter to God" - i.e. they are tying this word to "God" - but can they prove this via Quran?Can you provide some examples of things/ways if one did may result in "tattaquna". List 5 for example.
This will hopefully give us some insight on this issue.
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(...) Also, many terms are already defined in the Quran, but beginners usually don't notice this.
Example read 22-4. In 22 Quran uses the word Muttaqeen. Many people don't realise but in 23-4 the exact definition is given of the word Al muttaqeen.
Another example 245. In this verse the Quran uses al khashiAAeen. Again, if you read closely, you notice the Quran defined this term in 246.
Yet when you ask people who Al muttaqeen are, or who Al Khashieen are, they will give you a definition they sucked from their thumb.
Every once I repeatedly see people, again and again, trying to define Quranic terms which are already fully defined in the Quran.
In 23-4 we read the definition of al muttaqeen
Al Muttaqeen are those who
- believe in the unseen
- aqama al salat
- spend in what God gave us
- believe in what is sent down (to our messenger)
- believe in what was sent down (to our previous messengers)
- who are sure of the hereafter
How does Al syaam make us muttaqeen? There are two theories, it actually depending on how one define salat. For me, salat can have two meanings, and I am still not sure which is correct, or maybe both.
If salat does not mean prayer, then it must refer to betterment, living in according to God's law, etc. Therefore, al syaam is part of our salat, just like all the other Laws.
If salat mean prayer, then I do not see any possibillity to fit al syaam here, other than that "those who believe in what is sent down" means, not only believe, but also to uphold it's law. However, this seems streange, because the same wording is also used for the previous Books after it, and I think all muslims agree the previous are now corrupted.
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salaam
taqqy is from this root
( ة
.
so root mean exchange something with other.
wiqaya means prevention from bad things.( ة
.
islam is from root slm wich mean health, apart from illness.( ة
.
...so zakat is also of meaning growth and purification
may roots help thinkers.
Peace
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Peace all.
Verse 263.A person can be called muttaqin if they "uphold for what Allah sent down to us and remembering what lies within It"
Easy right?? Even an elementary kid will understand the meaning taqwa from Quranic teology just by reading verse 263.
So we can became a muttaqin and how to became tattaqun is by following Allah's messages (Quran Al Kareem).Sawm is Allah's commandmet, if we claims we're muttaqin meant we must did that fasting.
And as for why not undergo sawm/abstinence all the time, well there is no reason why one cannot, do so if you wish, but it is not an obligation.
Peace Wakas, can you explaining about that blue word, bro?
may roots help thinkers.
Yes norshirk, you're true, I think it's the one of the reason for why Arab language is one of the difficult language in this world.The proof is the word's meaning can easily change just only in different from.
The proper example is sujud and masjid have different meaning.
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It took me years to reject hadiths. When you are programmed and conditioned to think and believe in somethings and living a certain way, it is hard especially when people who have more knowledge than you telling you that you are committing shirk, following satan, lost, etc. But there are teenagers who came to reject and see the Truths just like that!
I don't know what Saum is but whatever it is, Saum is something that you do which MAY (as wakas pointed out) result in you becoming tattaquna.
Tattaqun in verse 2183 has been translated by
Asad conscious of God
Y. Ali self restrain
Pictkhall ward of evil
Ahmed Ali righteous
Freeminds righteous
Corpus quran righteous
Islamicstudies.info righteousI go to the website islamicity.com often. You can search by word, topic, phonetic, verses. I try to understand what a word means by looking where the same word was used and thinking about it. I am not arabic speaking and never was good in grammar but I can think for myself if tattaquna is an action like "ward of evil" or characteristic like righteous.
Plugging in righteous and conscious in the word search, I go with Asad's translation that tattaquna means "conscious" relating to being conscious of God.
The Koran really explains itself and in verse2177, a person who is conscious of God (muttaqi) is described.
Tattaquna is also mentioned in 2187 and 189.
Whatever Saum is, the result is that it may make you conscious of God. when you are conscious of god, you can achieve a happy or peaceful state not just within yourself but also in society. Makes total sense.
So the emphasis and importance is on tattaquna. Saum is a method or means of becoming conscious of God.
@wakas,
The act of not eating, drinking, having sex from dawn to night or not talking (as some here say) in of itself DOES NOT result in tattaquna. This is my point.Sigh. I have to once again cut short and stop here for how.
Thank you so much for the answer.
Peace
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If you are implying "tattaquna" specifically means "concious of God" - i.e. you are tying this word to "God" can you prove this via Quran? You may find chapter 9 useful for this.
I posted a list of translators and how they translated "laAAlallakum tattaquuna." Some translated tattaquuna as "righteous" and Asad translated it as "conscious of God". Looking at verses where tattaquoona is mentioned, I agree with Asad's translations of Conscious of God. "Salih" is used in reference to righteous. Correct me if I am way out in the left field.
Looking at the context of the verse and understanding the core message of the Koran and looking at other verses where tattaquuna is used, Asad's translation "conscious of God" seems to fit better.
If I become God conscious, I will be righteous. If I become God conscious, I will remember God when i am sad, happy, frustrated, distressed, hungry or stuffed, dehydrated or replenished, rich or poor, etc. If I am God conscious and i see injustice, I will stand up. If I am God conscious, I would not oppress, repress, suppress, abuse, hurt, say things that are not true, etc. if I am God conscious, I will do what God tells me to do. I will be conscious of myself, my actions, my behavior, my speech, etc.
Hence, why I agree with Asad's translation in this verse.
Now,if tattaquuna is not God conscious then what kind of "conscious" is it? "Saum" is prescribed so we may become "conscious" but of what? In the context of 2183?
Is there another alternative meaning of tattaquuna in this verse? I would be most interested in hearing and learning. And seeing how that definition would fit in this verse and context.
However tattuquna is translated "conscious, conscious of God or righteous" (pick anyone), ALsiyam is prescribe that MAY lead to tattaquuna.
IF you are trying to make a point and this point rests upon your view of Quran saying it will result in "tattaquna" - then please prove this first.
Do you not understand this simple point?I stand corrected. Ok let me rephrase my question how does the act of not eating, drinking, having sex all day or talking (as some here state) for x number of days out of the year in of itself MAY result in tattaquna?
Not eating may result in feeling hunger.
Not drinking may result in feeling thirsty.
Not having sex may result in ? (Not sure what affect if any this may have).How may abstaining from food, water and sex result in tattaquuna?
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I also don't understand that notion "it was ordered to those before you" since to my knowledge Xtians and Jews did not ever had that kind of fast lasting a whole month...
If ALsiyam is no food, water, sex all day in the month of Ramadan which in verse 2183 God says ALsiyam was prescribed before that means people before also had lunar calender? confused
So confused
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Re taqwa ~ concious of God
If your evidence is a translator said it can mean "concious of God" and that makes sense to you, then I do not consider that evidence. If you do, that is fine.
Personally, until I see solid evidence that this word is tied specifically to God then I cant accept that. However, I have less of an issue if one says that in the context of usage with believers it can mean "concious of God".In any case...
how does the act of not eating, drinking, having sex all day or talking (as some here state) for x number of days out of the year in of itself MAY result in tattaquna?
I already answered that, quote
Let's start with some basics...
If one is not engaged in the activities we are meant to abstain from, based on the common understanding of sawm, then this will give us more time for other things FACT.
If one is not satisfying their physical needs/desires, this usually shifts one's time/thoughts to other things, e.g. satisfying their mental/spiritual needs.
If one is not eating/drinking then this usually makes one experience thirst/hunger, thus likely making one empathetic/considerate of those who are poor who may experience this feeling regularly.
So, we can reasonably conclude a few things for one undergoing sawm
more time to do other things - certainly more time to think
there will likely be a shift in time/thoughts to non-physical desires
a likely increase in empathy for those in needIf we couple the above with the reasonable expectation that a mumin having more time will likely spend such time for productive efforts, we can clearly see some of the meanings of taqwa coming through, i.e.
God-conciousness, conscientiousness, piety, righteousness, forethoughtfulnessIf you found my answer unsatisfactory, that is fine, simply state so.
In case you found it unsatisfactory, that is why in my post I said
Can you provide some examples of things/ways if one did may result in "tattaquna". List 5 for example.
This will help us determine what kinds of things and how they may give us the desired effect...... according to you.
As a side note, I forgot to add that by resisting one's physical desires/needs/temptations this will likely build self-discipline/restraint/impulse.
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Salam!
Let me share some thoughts and experiences.
I think that there may be benefit in fasting (assuming we mean no food n drink n sex), but that it is not at all a given that we'll obtain or sense this benefit. I must admit that for most of the years I've been fasting, it was only another ritual. No food n drink, experience some hunger, some tiredness, then come home after work and eat at sun-down. I cannot recall any special benefits in those days, except perhaps that the body adjusted to the lack of food n water and experienced renewed energy. This often happens from different types of fasting, but I don't regard this as a benefit of sorts, as it is not a long lasting effect.The last 3 years, I have however made use of the fasting by special praying, special focus on purifying the mind, meditation/visualisation and similar stuff. I experienced that the lack of food n water makes it much, much easier to work on the "inner world", the mind, prayers etc. It's also my experience that it is these very kind of activities that actually create permanent change and benefit in your life. It seems to me that the lack of food n drink makes it easier to bypass your mind and "connect" to God (or whatever I should call it). It seems easier to get more effect n result. This is what I have felt and what I believe.
These last 3 years have given me infinitely much more improvement and benefit that all the fastings prior to that, so it is obvious to me that one can either benefit from or totally waste ones fasting. As usual, it doesn't start from outside with external activities, rather all is determined by our inner intentions, directions and activities. Everything works inside out. Not outside in. It also seems to me that SIMPLY fasting is virtually useless. Just doing a physical activity won't give you anything. Sometimes I feel we are dissecting the text of the quran in a too materialistic and dead way. We employ and apply our intellectual mind to it, analyzing and turning the words up and down, but insight and understanding will come by ease if God will give it too us. So, we should perhaps shift our focus from "conquering the quran" and "breaking the code" and "reaching a solution", and instead pray to God to let us OPEN UP and soften enough to relax and LET IN the correct understanding. The God Consciousness talked about in this thread, to me, is the same as this openness and softness. We cannot force it. We have to let go, in order to achieve it. We should let go of the shaytan in us that leads us astray by fanciful words and ideas. Our shaytan bolsters our ego and hardens our heart and let's us understand nothing of what we should learn.
We should ask ourselves how we can get closer to God through fasting. One way, as per my experience, is that we should pray alot and ask God for forgiveness and help. It is CRUCIAL and IMPERATIVE that we admit and realize that we are indeed HELPLESS and LOST without God's guidance and mercy. It doesn't matter who we are and what we have achieved in life, we are still helpless. It is not easy for the shaytanic ego to accept this. The ego will resist and insist that "we can take care of ourselves". We cannot. If we can really realize this it would be wonderful. Only intellectual understanding is useless. You can quote the entire wisdom of the world and still not get it. You may understand it, intellectually, but it won't be real to you. Also, when I say 'pray', I exclude all choreographed physical movements and habitual/ritual/automatic recitation of mantras/ayahs/words/spells/formulas/whatever. I talk about dua-style, an actual talk directed at God, words with meaning and intention. I don't expect my knees or elbows, nor someone else's ready-made script, to improve my spiritual level or to communicate with God for me. Pray means pray.
cheers
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Salam!
Let me share some thoughts and experiences.
I think that there may be benefit in fasting (assuming we mean no food n drink n sex), but that it is not at all a given that we'll obtain or sense this benefit. I must admit that for most of the years I've been fasting, it was only another ritual. No food n drink, experience some hunger, some tiredness, then come home after work and eat at sun-down. I cannot recall any special benefits in those days, except perhaps that the body adjusted to the lack of food n water and experienced renewed energy. This often happens from different types of fasting, but I don't regard this as a benefit of sorts, as it is not a long lasting effect.The last 3 years, I have however made use of the fasting by special praying, special focus on purifying the mind, meditation/visualisation and similar stuff. I experienced that the lack of food n water makes it much, much easier to work on the "inner world", the mind, prayers etc. It's also my experience that it is these very kind of activities that actually create permanent change and benefit in your life. It seems to me that the lack of food n drink makes it easier to bypass your mind and "connect" to God (or whatever I should call it). It seems easier to get more effect n result. This is what I have felt and what I believe.
These last 3 years have given me infinitely much more improvement and benefit that all the fastings prior to that, so it is obvious to me that one can either benefit from or totally waste ones fasting. As usual, it doesn't start from outside with external activities, rather all is determined by our inner intentions, directions and activities. Everything works inside out. Not outside in. It also seems to me that SIMPLY fasting is virtually useless. Just doing a physical activity won't give you anything. Sometimes I feel we are dissecting the text of the quran in a too materialistic and dead way. We employ and apply our intellectual mind to it, analyzing and turning the words up and down, but insight and understanding will come by ease if God will give it too us. So, we should perhaps shift our focus from "conquering the quran" and "breaking the code" and "reaching a solution", and instead pray to God to let us OPEN UP and soften enough to relax and LET IN the correct understanding. The God Consciousness talked about in this thread, to me, is the same as this openness and softness. We cannot force it. We have to let go, in order to achieve it. We should let go of the shaytan in us that leads us astray by fanciful words and ideas. Our shaytan bolsters our ego and hardens our heart and let's us understand nothing of what we should learn.
We should ask ourselves how we can get closer to God through fasting. One way, as per my experience, is that we should pray alot and ask God for forgiveness and help. It is CRUCIAL and IMPERATIVE that we admit and realize that we are indeed HELPLESS and LOST without God's guidance and mercy. It doesn't matter who we are and what we have achieved in life, we are still helpless. It is not easy for the shaytanic ego to accept this. The ego will resist and insist that "we can take care of ourselves". We cannot. If we can really realize this it would be wonderful. Only intellectual understanding is useless. You can quote the entire wisdom of the world and still not get it. You may understand it, intellectually, but it won't be real to you. Also, when I say 'pray', I exclude all choreographed physical movements and habitual/ritual/automatic recitation of mantras/ayahs/words/spells/formulas/whatever. I talk about dua-style, an actual talk directed at God, words with meaning and intention. I don't expect my knees or elbows, nor someone else's ready-made script, to improve my spiritual level or to communicate with God for me. Pray means pray.
cheers
Agreed, except the the end of last paragraph
peace
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We should ask ourselves how we can get closer to God through fasting. One way, as per my experience, is that we should pray alot and ask God for forgiveness and help. It is CRUCIAL and IMPERATIVE that we admit and realize that we are indeed HELPLESS and LOST without God's guidance and mercy. It doesn't matter who we are and what we have achieved in life, we are still helpless. It is not easy for the shaytanic ego to accept this. The ego will resist and insist that "we can take care of ourselves". We cannot. If we can really realize this it would be wonderful. Only intellectual understanding is useless. You can quote the entire wisdom of the world and still not get it. You may understand it, intellectually, but it won't be real to you. Also, when I say 'pray', I exclude all choreographed physical movements and habitual/ritual/automatic recitation of mantras/ayahs/words/spells/formulas/whatever. I talk about dua-style, an actual talk directed at God, words with meaning and intention. I don't expect my knees or elbows, nor someone else's ready-made script, to improve my spiritual level or to communicate with God for me. Pray means pray.
Peace Zulf,
Agreed! handshake Specially this quoted paragraph
May Allah bless you and increase our knowledge pr
mmKhan -
We should ask ourselves how we can get closer to God through fasting. One way, as per my experience, is that we should pray alot and ask God for forgiveness and help. It is CRUCIAL and IMPERATIVE that we admit and realize that we are indeed HELPLESS and LOST without God's guidance and mercy. It doesn't matter who we are and what we have achieved in life, we are still helpless. It is not easy for the shaytanic ego to accept this. The ego will resist and insist that "we can take care of ourselves". We cannot. If we can really realize this it would be wonderful. Only intellectual understanding is useless. You can quote the entire wisdom of the world and still not get it. You may understand it, intellectually, but it won't be real to you. Also, when I say 'pray', I exclude all choreographed physical movements and habitual/ritual/automatic recitation of mantras/ayahs/words/spells/formulas/whatever. I talk about dua-style, an actual talk directed at God, words with meaning and intention. I don't expect my knees or elbows, nor someone else's ready-made script, to improve my spiritual level or to communicate with God for me. Pray means pray.
cheers
Peace Zulf,
I would also like to say I really agree with this. Especially the last part about using our own words and not a ritualistic approach. I just wrote about this on a thread by Mayass. All the prayers of the Prophets, believers and so on are heartfelt words and very personal and that helps our personal relationship with Allah swt.
