Children of Israel, Pharaoh and Egypt
-
Peace Bender,
So where do you believe/or think its likely that the events in the Quran regarding Moses and the Children of Israel took place? I'm interested in all views so feel free to elaborate - as I mentioned in my opening post.
-
In this time in Egypt or wherever, would the Children of Israel have been widely known as the Children of Israel?
Of course not, perhaps the Egyptian has different name for them..
From the Egyptian perspective; they have a whole bunch of slave looking to escape...I'm not sure the Children of Israel, as we know them right now would have practiced any religion/way in Egypt if they could. Since Moses leads them out of Egypt (or wherever we believe they were) they come to know about the oneness of God through the Signs that Moses had been given. Just like the people of Egypt (or whichever country/area) had their particular Signs through Moses and other things.
There's also great possibility that those "Canaanites Slave" retain their old traditions, culture and religion.
Based on archeological findings, the ancient egyptian are quite 'liberal' in terms of religion, that's also part of the reason why they have hundreds if not thousands of deities.. Everybody are free to worship any deities, as long as they accept that the King/Sultan/Pharaoh is among the deities.. And of course never late to pay their taxes to the King/Sultan/PharaohI don't see any remarks whether in the Quran or the Bible that the "Egyptian's Polytheism" is considered as problem.
The problem being mentioned both in the Quran or Bible is that the Egyptian Pharaoh is a mean, evil and arrogant SOB, who thinks that he himself is The God. And they enslave some part of their own society (the israelites).In the Bible, there's a reminder to the israelites to "Treat the alien, foreigners who lived among you in the best possible manner, as you all were slaves in foreign land before". Which act as a reminder of not repeating the same mistakes as the Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
Salam / Peace
-
Of course not, perhaps the Egyptian has different name for them..
From the Egyptian perspective; they have a whole bunch of slave looking to escape...Or could they have been known by another name to most Egyptians, just a displaced people or even included different ethnicities? So was it possible that only when Moses spoke to Pharaoh that their lineage (Israel/Jacob) became more known?
Peace,
That's why I asked that follow up question. I already stated that they could have had another name for them, so your answer is a restatement of my follow up question. What I was asking in that follow up question is if anyone else knows about these possibilites and savage_carrot has referred a link about Pazuzu's books that looks very helpful.
The Egyptian Polytheism thing - I have a response to, but it will require much more time with verses and all, and I'm really, really not looking for a debate. If that's your opinion and interpretation, that's ok with me. I'd just like to get responses on this and agree to disagree if needs be.
-
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603137.0
Huruf has provided this link when I PMed about this thread - thanks Huruf! - I'd like to leave it here in case anyone else is interested in it.
-
This recent news might shed some light..
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359396/Archaeologists-baffled-ancient-Egyptian-sphinx-discovered-northern-Israel.html
Perhaps 'the israelites' was commonly addressed as a 'sub ethnicity' within Egypt during that time, and not totally different people.
-
Peace Bender,
So where do you believe/or think its likely that the events in the Quran regarding Moses and the Children of Israel took place? I'm interested in all views so feel free to elaborate - as I mentioned in my opening post.
Salaamun alayki sister,
sorry for the late post.
First I want to make myself clear that when I said "the country Egypt does not exist in The Quran" I did not mean that the events didn't happened somewhere in Egypt but that the word "misr" in AlQuran does not mean the land Egypt.
Where it happened I really don't know, but we can find some clues in The Quran.
This is how the land looked like
A- 2659
A- 2660This phenomenon has to be somewhere near that land
1860
So I think a place like in the middle of Russia or Africa can be excluded.This place has also AlYam (not sure what it means)
287This AlYam is near AlBahr because of
A- 2661
A- 7136
A- 7138The direction Musa went was this
2660
So there is at least an AlYam and AlBahr at this side of the land.
edit I even believe that the phenomenon described in 1860 is the place of 7138There are more hints but at the moment I can only think of this, when I remember again something I will post it inshaAllah.
by the way I guess nature changes with time so I think this makes it even more difficult.Salaam,
Bender -
...I'm not sure the Children of Israel, as we know them right now would have practiced any religion/way in Egypt if they could. Since Moses leads them out of Egypt (or wherever we believe they were) they come to know about the oneness of God through the Signs that Moses had been given. Just like the people of Egypt (or whichever country/area) had their particular Signs through Moses and other things...
highlight above is from me.
2132,
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the faith for you; then die not except in the state of being Muslims."
2133,
Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons "What will ye worship after me?" They said "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathersof Abraham, Isma`il, and Isaac,the one and only God, and onto Him we submit ourselves."
Also, chapter 12 of The Qur?aan in its entirety is essential in learning about the children of Israel, their origins, and their migration to MISR/Egypt.
Peace,
Khalil -
This recent news might shed some light..
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359396/Archaeologists-baffled-ancient-Egyptian-sphinx-discovered-northern-Israel.html
Perhaps 'the israelites' was commonly addressed as a 'sub ethnicity' within Egypt during that time, and not totally different people.
Interesting find and its very recent as well. Thanks for sharing it! There could be other reasons other than that stated in the article as well.
-
Salaamun alayki sister,
sorry for the late post.
First I want to make myself clear that when I said "the country Egypt does not exist in The Quran" I did not mean that the events didn't happened somewhere in Egypt but that the word "misr" in AlQuran does not mean the land Egypt.
Where it happened I really don't know, but we can find some clues in The Quran.
This is how the land looked like
A- 2659
A- 2660This phenomenon has to be somewhere near that land
1860
So I think a place like in the middle of Russia or Africa can be excluded.This place has also AlYam (not sure what it means)
287This AlYam is near AlBahr because of
A- 2661
A- 7136
A- 7138The direction Musa went was this
2660
So there is at least an AlYam and AlBahr at this side of the land.
edit I even believe that the phenomenon described in 1860 is the place of 7138There are more hints but at the moment I can only think of this, when I remember again something I will post it inshaAllah.
by the way I guess nature changes with time so I think this makes it even more difficult.Salaam,
BenderPeace brother,
Not to worry. Thanks for this, you've raised some good points and I'll need some more time to check all these verses. I'm not sure what AlYam is either but the same terminology appears to be used in other parts of the Quran and the translations either say sea or river... I'm not sure which one its meant to be or maybe its meant to be something else.
That's true about the way nature changes, so whatever conclusion we come to its good to look back at the core message of the story and anyone who does it with sincerity - that's what matters. It's like fasting to me, if someone is being truly sincere then whatever they do, if it's out of love for Allah swt then I don't believe Allah swt will reject that. He loves those who turn to Him and seek Him with sincerity, Subhan'Allah.
-
highlight above is from me.
2132,
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the faith for you; then die not except in the state of being Muslims."
2133,
Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons "What will ye worship after me?" They said "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathersof Abraham, Isma`il, and Isaac,the one and only God, and onto Him we submit ourselves."
Also, chapter 12 of The Qur?aan in its entirety is essential in learning about the children of Israel, their origins, and their migration to MISR/Egypt.
Peace,
KhalilPeace brother,
Appreciate your input. I meant more the people at the time who were considered Children of Israel who did not live through Jacob's lifetime. Interestingly though, I'm not sure the Quran mentions a scripture given to Jacob which would be a 'verification of those past Signs' - albeit the message could still have experienced corruption like the Torah, Gospel. Although, that doesn't mean he wasn't given one or whether the living conditions of the children of Israel and other workers would have allowed for much religious discourse that studying a scripture would entail.
-
Reading back Pazuzu's thread and book I have come to another dog that didn't bark and which is plain indicative that there is no Egypt at all in Musa's story, if there was any doubt left, which for me there was not
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
?What is this? A great farao, who was if not the most powerful, one of the most powerful rulers of the most powerful states of the world with a territory beyond grasp for most peopla at that time of thousands of kilometers of extension, with whole armies, legions of burocrats, ashtonishing and enormous temples, institutions and yes ENORMOUS and ashtounding pyramids, a gigantic agriculture, fishing and shipping, and what does he boast of some rivers under his palace. ?What just one palace? Pitiful. And a simple man heading a mere gang, as he says, Manages to get to his presence and not to the presence of a middle level public employee who would have dispatched him just like that. What kind of mighty king is that?
Seriously in an extremely and populated kingdom like old Egypt would ever a wretch, as fir3awn diescribes him, ever get to be reeived by the King, the might pharao, would he ever get past the quantity of public employees would would deal with him adequately and assure him that his message owuld be faithfully transmitted to the king? Just to hink of it is preposterous. What, somebody who is coming to teach him a new religion? To the pharaoh?
And the pharaoh would feel cornered to defend himself saying that there are rivers under his palace... and that for that reason... whatever.
He doesn't even say that through his enourmous domains flows the mightyriver, bringer of life and riches, the magnificent Nile.
It does makes sense if he is merely the lord of a misr, an enclave or small domain, which by size allows him to keep track of every happening our of the ordinary in his territory, not, for God's sake, the king of Egypt.
Salaam
-
Peace huruf,
I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm remaining open minded about as I look into it more. One thing though about Moses going to Pharaoh was that he was already within the family of Pharaoh before - a possible hint that the two ethnicities were not so hugely different in looks etc if he could be brought up and raised as one of another 'tribe' or 'group'. So, from the other perspective, we could say it was easier for someone like Moses to go in front of Pharaoh? I'm not saying that means its Egypt, but its just part of the story. That he doesn't mention the Nile though - that's a good point, either the Quran wants to leave it open ended if it is Egypt or it's not Egypt.
Thanks for your help.
-
Salam and peace,
here are my thoughts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599235.0to summarise I think all the stories come from the region of Mesopotamia, cradle of humanity.
This region could cover from Irak, Jordania, North Arabia, what is called the fertile crescent.Peace
-
Peace herbman,
I greatly appreciate the link and its looks very interesting.
I personnaly think that in the Reading God is intentionnaly vague on geographical location and these stories are but (real) examples for humanity, these stories can be translocated anywhere on earth where any king/governor could oppress people for their origin/religion e.g. Hitler and nazism in Germany, Appartheid in South Africa, Arabs in Palestine etc...
I'll go through it in more detail later but I particularly liked this post you made. That's an important part of the message I believe. We can try to place the story in a location if we want but the core of the message and lessons remain the same.
-
Peace huruf,
I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm remaining open minded about as I look into it more. One thing though about Moses going to Pharaoh was that he was already within the family of Pharaoh before - a possible hint that the two ethnicities were not so hugely different in looks etc if he could be brought up and raised as one of another 'tribe' or 'group'. So, from the other perspective, we could say it was easier for someone like Moses to go in front of Pharaoh? I'm not saying that means its Egypt, but its just part of the story. That he doesn't mention the Nile though - that's a good point, either the Quran wants to leave it open ended if it is Egypt or it's not Egypt.
Thanks for your help.
Fir3awn is boasting, which obviously he loved to do. If he really was the ruler of Egypt he would not boast like that, however he might know Musa. With a country like Egypt you certainly you can boast far, far higher than what he did. Also if he was the ruler of Egypt even if he knew Musa, it would not be likely that he would entertain with him such kind of interview being what he was. But it might be thinkable if he was just a lesser tribal or city ruler.
Salaam
-
I personnaly think that in the Reading God is intentionnaly vague on geographical location and these stories are but (real) examples for humanity, these stories can be translocated anywhere on earth where any king/governor could oppress people for their origin/religion e.g. Hitler and nazism in Germany, Appartheid in South Africa, Arabs in Palestine etc...
There is no intentional "vagueness" on the part of the Quran. The problem is with the understanding of the future generations. The audience of the Quran (Muhammad and his people) knew exactly where the theater of the events was. And I still maintain, to this day, that the names Misr, Badr, Yathrib, Midyan, al-Ahqaf, Bakkah, and Tur Seena are actual places, not symbols in a vacuum.
However, I do agree with you that the message of those stories may very well be translocated as examples all over the world. The Pharaohs, Hamans, and Qaroons exist all around us today, and have succeeded in dumbing down and enslaving humanity all across the globe, with their corrupt system of politics-religion-finance and "magic" (trickery) of their deceitful media. So, yes, we can understand the Quranic message even if we do not care to know where the events took place.
The importance of discovering the theater of the events serves other purposes
1- Determine where and when the Quran was revealed, and who was Muhammad? (I think we have the right to now this).
2- Expose the crimes of the hijackers and counterfeiters of history.
3- Expose a fraudulent methodology in dealing with the signs of the Quran, and how the Muslims resort to their "acrobatics", as they twist and distort the meanings of the passages to make them fit with pre-established creeds.
4- Expose the racial and ideological interpretations of those who use the religious texts to impose their imperialist ideas.If I didn't think these reasons were important, I would not have gone through the trouble of compiling these books, and dedicating 9 years of my life to this research.
Regards.
-
If anyone's interested about the Nile and how it was known in Ancient Egyptian language, I did a search and apparently wikipedia says "In the ancient Egyptian language, the Nile is called 'p or Iteru, meaning "great river", represented by the hieroglyphs shown on the left (literally itrw, and 'waters' determinative). In Coptic, the words piaro (Sahidic) or phiaro (Bohairic) meaning "the river" (lit. p(h).iar-o "the.canal-great" come from the same ancient name." https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile
This whole thing is very curious. In researching this, it is still best to remain open minded to the possibility it isn't Egypt, otherwise then there is no point in looking into it further as our mind would already be made up.
There is definitely value in looking into this further if we wish to do so, though.
Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.
-
Well, in my case there would be no point to continue writing because I am fully convinced it is NOT Egypt.
As far as I know the Nile in Arabic is now Nil and I do not have any news that it has ever been anything else.
There is an Arabic root n-y-l but I wouldn't know by what way it might have come to the name Nil, a more likely one as to meaning, would be n-w-l which means to gift, give, present, etc. since it is said that Egypt is a gift of the Nile. May be some crack in Arabic con enlighten us.
Salaam
-
Salaam supportpeacenotwar and all.
Like I said in your another thread if I'm not too interested in history, but I found some clues for this
- Pharoah is the ruler who want to saw the God by created the tall building.
4036-37 And Pharaoh said ?O Haamaan, build for me a high platform that I may uncover the secrets.? ?The secrets of the heavens, so that I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is a liar.? Thus the evil works of Pharaoh were adorned for him, and he was blocked from the path. And the planning of Pharaoh brought nothing but regret.
As far as I know, the ruler who want to did this is Namrudz of Babilonia during Ibrahim era.But you may search another ruler who did similiar.
- We may see the corpse of Pharaoh this day.
1092 ?This day, We will preserve your body, so that you become a sign for those after you.? But most of the people are unaware of Our signs!
This means Pharoah's body was survived until this day for our sign or lesson.
How to identify which one is this pharaoh's corpse, read this ayat.
1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But
when he was certain to drown, he said ?I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I
am of those who have submitted.?See.The Pharaoh killed by drowning, so this means his corpse contain mineral of waters such like salt etc.
And there is discovery of the Pharaoh's mummies which founded in Red Sea and his body was contains salt, and possibility he is that Pharaoh of Exodus, see http//www.ezsoftech.com/giknowledge/firaun.mummy.asp
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjvpAbtHs8Hope this help.