How is taking usury unjust, cheating, inequitable etc. ?
-
When reading discussions about taking usury, everyone seem to assume that taking usury is unjust, cheating, inequitable, etc.
However, how can people accept such premisses? What if paying even 50% interest is beneficient to me, it is me who is accepting to pay this extremely high interest.
Traditionalist translation 2282
O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.
summarizing, according to 2282, when we are about to contract a debt we must
- write it down
- writing it in fairness
- not to refuse to write it
- dictate it
- be carefull
- not diminsh anything
- if the debter is unsound or weak, let a guardian dictate in fairness
- call two male witnesses, or one male and two female witnesses
- the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned
- be not averse to writing it, whether small or large
- have witnesses when barter with one another
This is to
- be more equitable
- assure accuracy
- to not attain doubts afterwards
- have witnesses
- have no harm done to the witnesses or scribe
I can not remember a verse on the Quran that is so full of warnings, advices, information and details as this verse. Also note how this verse (2282) is followed right after the verses about Riba (2275-281).
Lets assume that "Riba = usury" is true. So my questions are
-
How can taking usury contradict any of the great amount of above mentioned advices, warnings and information?
-
How is taking usury against Quran's morals / standards (to be unjust, cheating, inequitable, etc.), when both parties have created an agreement, with witnesses, a scribe, and a contract, that follows all points mentioned in 2282 ? Did the debtor not know and accept all the risks? How can this be the fault of the creditor?
-
Also, knowing that Riba is haram, and assuming that Riba = Usury/interest, can anyone tell me, WHY does this verse not warn, or even mention Riba at all? Why does this verse warn for all kinds of things, but does not warn against Riba, or warn for any practice that has any relation with taking usury/interest?
Please remember that this verse, 2282 follows RIGHT AFTER a group of verses warning against riba 2275-281.
-
What if paying even 50% interest is beneficient to me, it is me who is accepting to pay this extremely high interest.
- How is taking usury against Quran's morals / standards (to be unjust, cheating, inequitable, etc.), when both parties have created an agreement, with witnesses, a scribe, and a contract, that follows all points mentioned in 2282 ? Did the debtor not know and accept all the risks? How can this be the fault of the creditor?
Hey,
So, I'm reading the translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali for this verse but this is what it says
"That which ye lay out for increase through the property of (other) people, will have no increse with God but that which ye lay out for charity, seeking the countenant of God, (will increase) it is these who will get a recompense multiplied." Qur'an 30-39
In both indexes of the two Qur'ans I own, this verse is pointed to as one discussing interest. One of my translations uses the word interest outright, I like this translation because it DOESN'T. That doesn't mean I think it doesn't discuss usury though, I just think it sets up my comment on your post nicely.
First let's look at this verse... Interest is indeed an increase in wealth through the property of other people. Take my student loans for example. Before I converted to Islam, I took out TONS of loans because my family just doesn't have the money to send us to college, but they still wanted us to go. It was a big mistake and a waste of time, but that's for another post. Anyways, I took out loans, and when I get the bill for them in the mail, I see the original sum that I agreed upon. That sum has tripled in size though due to interest. So, with interest, you agree on a loan for $3,000, but over time you pay well more than $3,000. They "double dip" you.
So, now you respond to me with, "Well, you knew about it. You "wrote it down" and were aware of it." per the verse that you quoted. That's true, but just because I "wrote it down" doesn't make it just. The verse you quoted are tenets and conditions by which an agreement is made morally legal, but they are not the end all be all of the topic. The train doesn't just stop there.
In Islam, we are instructed to be charitable and to not love money and wealth. We are told to only take what is rightfully ours, and to not exploit the needs and situations of other people. Like the orphan's property that we are told to never touch unless it is to increase it, so should it be with the rest of our interactions with people as Muslims.
The rest of the verse I have showed you backs this up that what you increase in charity and good will are good in the site of God. What's funny about the verse, at least in this translation, is that good deeds seem to have a kind of interest of their own, a divine interest, one that is controlled by God. I think a good word for it is "karma".
We have to also looks at the long term and macro level effects of interest. While some people prosper from interest and others may have no issue paying interest off, by and large interest creates huge problems for a society when it comes to economic equality and social justice. America is reaping the vile fruit of a credit, mortgage, and student loan industry that has consumed our society. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer is largely due to interest. The modern day American economic crisis is probably the best example I can think of concerning the sin of interest. Interest is bad because it creates a larger situation of social injustice, and it creates situations that poor people are both dependent on for every day life (credit industry, student loans) and at the same time will never escape from due to wages that cannot pay off interest rates. (Inflation, lack of a living wage, poor job market)
I think when you deal with morality of any kind you have to look at the Qur'an on a macro level. Interest is a huge example of that, and I strongly do believe the verse I provided you with, short as it is, makes it clear that interest is wrong, especially when taken in light of Islamic values at large.
Money truly is the root of all evil.
The verse you quoted deals with the legal level of making an agreement writing it down, and making the terms clear. It DOES NOT discuss WHAT TERMS ARE MORAL AND IMMORAL. Essentially, the verse you quoted is not talking about the moral contents contained WITHIN the agreement, it is simply discussing the moral contents of "What an agreement ought to be" or "How and agreement ought to be carried out." The contents of the agreement on a moral level are not discussed, since the contents of an agreement can range from interest rates, me selling you a tomato, me selling drugs, me buying an atomic weapon, or me buying a garden hose, all of which carry different moral implications according to Islam.
-
When reading discussions about taking usury, everyone seem to assume that taking usury is unjust, cheating, inequitable, etc.
However, how can people accept such premisses? What if paying even 50% interest is beneficient to me, it is me who is accepting to pay this extremely high interest.
Traditionalist translation 2282
summarizing, according to 2282, when we are about to contract a debt we must- write it down
- writing it in fairness
- not to refuse to write it
- dictate it
- be carefull
- not diminsh anything
- if the debter is unsound or weak, let a guardian dictate in fairness- call two male witnesses, or one male and two female witnesses
- the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned
- be not averse to writing it, whether small or large
- have witnesses when barter with one another
This is to
- be more equitable
- assure accuracy
- to not attain doubts afterwards
- have witnesses
- have no harm done to the witnesses or scribe
I can not remember a verse on the Quran that is so full of warnings, advices, information and details as this verse. Also note how this verse (2282) is followed right after the verses about Riba (2275-281).
Lets assume that "Riba = usury" is true. So my questions are
-
How can taking usury contradict any of the great amount of above mentioned advices, warnings and information?
-
How is taking usury against Quran's morals / standards (to be unjust, cheating, inequitable, etc.), when both parties have created an agreement, with witnesses, a scribe, and a contract, that follows all points mentioned in 2282 ? Did the debtor not know and accept all the risks? How can this be the fault of the creditor?
Peace
Not to forget that it is the debtor who has right to dictate in fairness the terms of the debt/loan ......and in fairness and let him who owes the debt dictate.
Now think of a situation where the one who owes has been given the chance to dictated the terms of repayments in fairness and the creditor agrees with it.
salaam