If "Only Allah", then "Allah Alone" is our watchword
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Peace,
No it doesn't.
No it doesn't.
No it doesn't.
No, it's exactly about distribution of inheritance.
What is there to answer you for your simple "one word dismissal" without substantial back up with your view points?
None of that is mentioned in verses.
That is my view. You can clearly see that as a paragraph separated from the verse.
Yes we are waiting. Why post above assertions without first carefully translating the verses?
You are interested in arabic language that you go for literal translation. I am being careful in getting at the translation to reform and transform. We are poles apart. It is better we stay polarised.
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Peace drfazl,
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Allah enjoins you concerning your offsprings
The God of the worlds warns you to fear Him concerning the state of your weak offsprings if you die leaving them orphans at such tender age. If we take the admonition seriously, then here is what you shall do concerning the similar status of other orphans before you. "And test the orphans until they attain maturity - then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether from touching it, and whoever is poor, let him use it reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner."
- The male shall have the equal of the share of responsibility of two females.
411 directs you the god in/concerning children yours lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)...
Case deceased leaves property 72 gold coins; son age 2, two daughters ages 5 and 10
Question what responsibility are you assigning to each underage child?
Question upon maturity how person in whose care distribute 72 coins?- Then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds responsibility of the responsibilities the deceased has left behind; and if there is one, she shall bear the half.
If there are only females as near relatives of the deceased, then their share of responsibilities go as above depending on their numbers.
- And as for his parents, each of them shall bear the sixth of what he has left if he has a child.
Since his parents have reached above the earning age, it is enough if they each bear a sixth of responsibility. How justified could it be to take away a child's property earned for it by its father?
411 ... so if are (f/p) nisan/women above two (f) falahunna/so for them (f/p) thulutha/third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/she is whidatan/one (f/s) so for her the half
and to parents his/deceased to each one from them both the sixth from what left if kana/he is (m/s) for him/deceased walad/born (if ?he is? to person male child born i.e. a son)
Case deceased leaves property 72 gold coins; mother, father, son age 2, two daughters ages 5 and 10
Question who has responsibility for whom and for how much?
Question how to distribute 72 gold coins immediately and when each child reaches maturity?- But if he has no child and his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall bear the third.
His father, the male shall bear twice the share of what the mother shall bear.
411 ... so if not was for him/deceased walad/born (if no child) and heirs parents his (if only parents are heirs) so to mother his/deceased the third
Case deceased leaves 72 gold coins; mother and father
Question who has responsibility for whom and how much?
Question how should 72 coins be distributed immediately?- But if he has brothers, then his mother shall bear the sixth
And his father shall bear one third, twice that of the mother.
411 ... so if he is (m/s) for him/deceased ikh'wat/brethren (if to person was a male sibling i.e. brother) so to mother his/deceased the sixth from after a will have made in it or judgment
Case deceased leaves 72 gold coins; mother, father, and brother age 20
Question who has responsibility for whom and how much?
Question how should 72 coins be distributed immediately?Case deceased leaves 72 gold coins; mother and brother age 10
Question who has responsibility for whom and how much?
Question how should 72 coins be distributed immediately and when brother reaches maturity?412 follows next
411, 412, and 4176 give exact inheritance distributions (not responsibilities) for all combinations.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.0
Peace
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Peace drfazl,
411 directs you the god in/concerning children yours lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)...
Case deceased leaves property 72 gold coins; son age 2, two daughters ages 5 and 10
Question what responsibility are you assigning to each underage child?
Question upon maturity how person in whose care distribute 72 coins?Peace noon,
47 to 410 is the prelude before entering 411. Please read post 137. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg333602#msg333602
And 48 needs special mention. Msg# 145
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg333637#msg333637Where is the question of assigning responsibility to the weak offsprings? Wherefrom in 411 you got this?
It is the duty of all the near relations to come together to settle the debts and fulfil the Will of the deceased, in whatever and every means possible. Then you shall sit together and take account of the necessary financial assistance on daily or monthly basis and pour in your contributions as per shares prescribed. And wealthy among you can give more for Allah's sake, and among them who have not much finance to support there is no blame on them if they can only contribute less. Allah is sufficient as Reckoner. Even the distant relations and all those who wish to take part and spend in Allah's case however poor they are, they shall be given permission to do so. "Those who spend benevolently in ease as well as in straitness, and Allah loves the doers of good to others."
411 says regarding those poor families with little children whose deceased father was earning every day for their livelihood and their livelihood is straitened with the debts in addition. Wherefrom you got 72 gold coins? This imaginary case has no standing here. They have nothing left with them like what you say according to 411.
drfazl
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Before going to 412, we shall keep in mind the general rule stated in 47 - Men shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, and women shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, whether there is little or much of it; a stated portion.
Here the men and women are the grown ups and are not children. They have slated portion to carry on the duties left behind by either their parents or their near relatives. Among the duties the first to be done is to settle the will and the debts of the deceased.
412
This verse begins by addressing the community as a whole comprising of men and women. Here it goes
- And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child.
Since the husband has already been looking after her all along, it is addressed to the near relatives of the wives with regard to any settlement by way of her will or debt which is truly an extra burden. Here referring to child does not mean small children but grown up by then had they had them in time after marriage. In such situation the near relations of wife shall bear half the responsibility, until such a period, the situation in the family is normalised.
- But if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after payment of any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt.
But if they have the child, then he shall bear too the duties to his mother, and they shall bear the fourth of it. The rest of a fourth shall be borne by the near relatives of wife.
- This apart, they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child.
There might have been forced expenses from unforeseen circumstances for which had the husband gone in for debts on account of the deceased - then upon her relatives a fourth is due if you have no child.
- But if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after payment of a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt.
If you have child, then their share is even halved.
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And if a man or a woman leaves commitments to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he or she has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth.
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But if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after payment of any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt.
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But it shall not cause loss to any.
While thus sharing the responsibilities, Allah is always compassionate on whom there is financial restrictions. They shall never be forced to take part. Surely Allah will not put to test any one beyond his scope to bear. In the path to salam compulsion is prohibited.
- This is an ordinance from Allah and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.
fazlur rahman
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Peace -- drfazl
Wherefrom you got 72 gold coins? This imaginary case has no standing here. They have nothing left with them like what you say according to 411.
OK make 5 coins and a donkey or anything of value in their possession at time of death.
Likewise when it says don't eat their wealth and hand over their properties when they reach maturity -- what is that talking about other than their inheritance?
410 surely the ones eating wealth the orphans injustice of only eating in bellies theirs fire of and will be burning a blaze
411 directs you the god in children yours...Please answer the questions posted earlier; what happens to inheritance/property of deceased rich or poor?
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412
This verse begins by addressing the community as a whole comprising of men and women. Here it goes
- And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child.
Since the husband has already been looking after her all along, it is addressed to the near relatives of the wives with regard to any settlement by way of her will or debt which is truly an extra burden. Here referring to child does not mean small children but grown up by then had they had them in time after marriage. In such situation the near relations of wife shall bear half the responsibility, until such a period, the situation in the family is normalised.
What?
412 and for you half what left azwjukum/spouses yours if not was for them (f/p) walad/born (if no child)
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Peace -- drfazl
OK make 5 coins and a donkey or anything of value in their p handshakessession at time of death.
Likewise when it says don't eat their wealth and hand over their properties when they reach maturity -- what is that talking about other than their inheritance?
410 surely the ones eating wealth the orphans injustice of only eating in bellies theirs fire of and will be burning a blaze
411 directs you the god in children yours...Please answer the questions posted earlier; what happens to inheritance/property of deceased rich or poor?
Peace noon
I have given account of 411 regarding the poor in all my previous posts and what the responsibilities are with regard to the near relatives of the deceased. In the first place there is no question of having any personal property such as donkey and 5 coins when the family needs to settle their debts.
And again you shall understand there is no way even thinking of inheriting the properties by any of the relatives other than the members of the deceased family.
drfazl
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Peace noon
I have given account of 411 regarding the poor in all my previous posts and what the responsibilities are with regard to the near relatives of the deceased. In the first place there is no question of having any personal property such as donkey and 5 coins when the family needs to settle their debts.
And again you shall understand there is no way even thinking of inheriting the properties by any of the relatives other than the members of the deceased family.
drfazl
Peace drfazl, yes inheriting properties by close members family of deceased.
Again, I ask you who gets the deceased property and how much?
inheritors mother, father, spouse, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers
Again, I ask you what is wealth of orphans not to be eaten and given them?
46 and test yeh the orphans until when attained they the marriage so if perceive you from them rational so deliver yeh to them wealth theirs and not eat/consume it wastefully and hastily that grow up they (i.e. consume it before they come of age) and from he is rich so should refrain and from he is in need of so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when deliver you to them wealth theirs so witness yeh over them and sufficient in the god reckon-er
410 surely the ones eating wealth the orphans injustice of only eating in bellies theirs fire of and will be burning a blaze
411 directs you the god in children yours...No need to get into 412 and 4176 for your interpretation has so many contractions it makes absolutely no sense which you are not translating rather writing your own book using your own words according to some weird Marxist communist anti-inheritance philosophy saying it's about poor tenants living in low housing flats.
Let?s stick to words used in the book apply them accordingly otherwise not wasting any more time.
Peace
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Peace drfazl, yes inheriting properties by close members family of deceased.
Again, I ask you who gets the deceased property and how much?
inheritors mother, father, spouse, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers
Again, I ask you what is wealth of orphans not to be eaten and given them?
Peace noon,
46 is not to be applied here for the ayat is concerning the orphans who have no relatives at all; or in other words abandoned by the relatives because of such misinterpretation of 411.
411 is not concerning with orphans but either of the parents and all the near and far relatives are bonded together. If you follow this ayat, there cannot be orphans at all. The ayat is all about the indebted family as the earning member, male dies. The relations of the husband play major role in streamlining the family affairs. Their first duty is to pay debts.
Make it clear a family in debt has no property. They are to be sold or to be mortgaged to settle debts. In addition they are to be helped by the near ones. The family members such as spouse, sons and daughters are very young and financially weak and they have no role. But father, mother, brothers, sisters of the deceased do have a role.
Unless you get this there is no seeing each other eye to eye, for fruitful discussion.
I am not ambiguous in my take. I respect your take if your understanding is original, uncontaminated by Hadiths.
drfazl
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Hadith of Allah & Hadith of Buhari
Which is true and which is satanic? What do we understand by the following ayat?
- God - save whom there is no deity - will surely gather you all together on the Day of Resurrection. Which is beyond all doubt? And whose Hadith could be truer than God's?
Only if we discard Buhari's Hadiths as comprising of doubts, mischiefs and falsehood, there is no way a word of Quran could be understood in the right direction. If we are to read Quran, we have to seek from Allah the revelation of what every ayat, words mean pertaining to each of our situation at any given point of time. Quran is not Arabic language. Quran is Wahi given in Arabic syllables. Such as Alif, Laam, Meem, Raa, Noon, Kaf, Ha, Ya, Ain, Saad etc. every syllable of Quran has meanings which Allah alone could reveal and teach. But we believe in Arabic language and derive the mundane meanings as Allah's revelation. This amounts to pride and prejudice. It is surely a manner of association to Allah's Hadiths.
If we are humble before Allah and wait in patience to totally surrender to the Revelation of His Hadiths, then we shall be elevated with Revelation as and when it reaches us as Wahi. Only now 411 is easy to get at.
drfazl
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Hadith of Allah & Hadith of Buhari
Which is true and which is satanic? What do we understand by the following ayat?
- God - save whom there is no deity - will surely gather you all together on the Day of Resurrection. Which is beyond all doubt? And whose Hadith could be truer than God's?
Only if we discard Buhari's Hadiths as comprising of doubts, mischiefs and falsehood, there is no way a word of Quran could be understood in the right direction. If we are to read Quran, we have to seek from Allah the revelation of what every ayat, words mean pertaining to each of our situation at any given point of time. Quran is not Arabic language. Quran is Wahi given in Arabic syllables. Such as Alif, Laam, Meem, Raa, Noon, Kaf, Ha, Ya, Ain, Saad etc. every syllable of Quran has meanings which Allah alone could reveal and teach. But we believe in Arabic language and derive the mundane meanings as Allah's revelation. This amounts to pride and prejudice. It is surely a manner of association to Allah's Hadiths.
If we are humble before Allah and wait in patience to totally surrender to the Revelation of His Hadiths, then we shall be elevated with Revelation as and when it reaches us as Wahi. Only now 411 is easy to get at.
drfazl
7750 Then in what Hadidths after this (the Hadidth of Allah - Quran) will they believe?
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Which is true and which is satanic? What do we understand by the following ayat?
- God - save whom there is no deity - will surely gather you all together on the Day of Resurrection. Which is beyond all doubt? And whose Hadith could be truer than God's?
Only if we discard Buhari's Hadiths as comprising of doubts, mischiefs and falsehood, there is no way a word of Quran could be understood in the right direction. If we are to read Quran, we have to seek from Allah the revelation of what every ayat, words mean pertaining to each of our situation at any given point of time. Quran is not Arabic language. Quran is Wahi given in Arabic syllables. Such as Alif, Laam, Meem, Raa, Noon, Kaf, Ha, Ya, Ain, Saad etc. every syllable of Quran has meanings which Allah alone could reveal and teach. But we believe in Arabic language and derive the mundane meanings as Allah's revelation. This amounts to pride and prejudice. It is surely a manner of association to Allah's Hadiths.
If we are humble before Allah and wait in patience to totally surrender to the Revelation of His Hadiths, then we shall be elevated with Revelation as and when it reaches us as Wahi. Only now 411 is easy to get at.
drfazl
Quran Only (22) This the Book
442
On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the messenger will wish that the earth Were made one with them But never will they hide which single Hadith from Allah!7185
Have they not considered the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and what things Allah hath created, and that it may be that their own term draweth nigh? In what Hadidth (Other Than Hadidth of Allah ) after this will they believe?5234
Let them then produce a Hadith like Quran if they are truthful. -
Peace
Welcome to this forum johnson )
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Peace noon,
47 to 410 is the prelude before entering 411. Please read post 137. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg333602#msg333602
And 48 needs special mention. Msg# 145
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg333637#msg333637Where is the question of assigning responsibility to the weak offsprings? Wherefrom in 411 you got this?
It is the duty of all the near relations to come together to settle the debts and fulfil the Will of the deceased, in whatever and every means possible. Then you shall sit together and take account of the necessary financial assistance on daily or monthly basis and pour in your contributions as per shares prescribed. And wealthy among you can give more for Allah's sake, and among them who have not much finance to support there is no blame on them if they can only contribute less. Allah is sufficient as Reckoner. Even the distant relations and all those who wish to take part and spend in Allah's case however poor they are, they shall be given permission to do so. "Those who spend benevolently in ease as well as in straitness, and Allah loves the doers of good to others."
411 says regarding those poor families with little children whose deceased father was earning every day for their livelihood and their livelihood is straitened with the debts in addition. Wherefrom you got 72 gold coins? This imaginary case has no standing here. They have nothing left with them like what you say according to 411.
drfazl
Inheritance or Responsiblity
My sons after graduating from medical college , they are running an outpatient clinic in my city. Yesterday my son was discussing with my daughter in law who is also a doctor about a hospital nursing staff. I enquired about it , this is about my nursing staff , Mrs.Daisy 50 yr old, working in our hospital for the past 15 years. My son said that she was crying whenever she was alone, unable to concentrate on her job, she is very much disturbed and very sad. He came to know that she is having lots of debts and unable to pay the money.
Actually i didnot know about her personal and family life after the demise of her husband last year. Many times i tried to convince her not to worry about the loss of her husband and beyond that i did not know about her life. But today i wanted to enquire about her and family situation, so i called her over phone. I asked her , " how are you managing your family". She is having a bachelor son who joined a private company afetr the completion of school education. He was working in a nearby city. Her daughter finished engineering graduation and joined as an assistant prof in a college and got married. It all happened when her husband was alive. Now her daughter also wasnt living with her. Her husband who was a tailor used to earn 500-600 rupees per day had heart attack 2 years before, for which her husband was admitted in a hospital. She spent 55000rupees for hospital stay and 30000rupees for medicines. After the discharge they did angiogram for which she spent 30000 rupees. So nearly she borrowed 400,000 rupees while her husband was alive. Suddenly her husband died last year.
She was able to pay the interest money when her husband was alive. After his demise she couldnt pay the interest money with what she earned. She is having brothers, sisters and lot of relatives. She says all the relatives after her husband's death didnot turn up to take responsibility or atleast reduce the burden of my debt. So im praying all the time at my home. Im unable to answer the money lenders who is coming to my house daily. I couldnt sleep easily, my son or daughter is not here. Im unable to control my emotions. Im believing in god and only he has to help me to come out of the crisis. My only daughter is not at all coming to my house to see me, i helped a lot for her education and marriage. None of my brothers or sisters turned up to visit me after my husband's death. Even my younger sister who is living close to my house doesnt come to see me.
I told her, " You had great regards for your near and distant relatives. Now see what happened when you are grieving and in debt. Nobody is there to help you out. So now you believe in god alone. Dont depend on your relatives. Dont have any doubt on god's grace ". She has got money from us too and for that we were deducting 1000 Rs per month from her salary. I told her hereafter we wont deduct that money. That much help i can do for you.
Actually after reading dr.fazl's posting in about inheritance and responsibility in the family of deceased , i realised that i should contact that staff and enquire her status. Thank allah for conveying this good message through dr.fazl.
Dr.R.Kanagasabapathy
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dr.rks
Since you followed 411 in its prestine sense and essence, Allah had guided you till the end of your life. Allah shall not waste a bit even, of what they had understood from any ayat of Quran. Sister Daisy has been your hospital staff since 15 years and you have become one with her as her brethren. Until you came to know of 411 you were deducting 1000 rupee from her salary but having come to know how you should treat an orphan immediately you waived the deduction. If everybody follows 411 in this manner there cannot be orphans. The following is the ayat to which Allah had guided you and He would guide you till the end of your life and its fruits would reach far and wide, till the end of the world. Clearly Buhari and co were the mischief makers to destroy such great guidance to mankind concerning orphans.
- They ask thee concerning orphans, Say till the end "The best thing to do is what is for their good; if ye mix their affairs with yours, they are your brethren; but Allah knows the man who means mischief from the man who means good. And if Allah had wished, He could have put you into difficulties He is indeed Exalted in Power, Wise."
drfazl
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Inheritance or Responsiblity
I told her, " You had great regards for your near and distant relatives. Now see what happened when you are grieving and in debt. Nobody is there to help you out. So now you believe in god alone. Dont depend on your relatives. Dont have any doubt on god's grace ". She has got money from us too and for that we were deducting 1000 Rs per month from her salary. I told her hereafter we wont deduct that money. That much help i can do for you.
Actually after reading dr.fazl's posting in about inheritance and responsibility in the family of deceased , i realised that i should contact that staff and enquire her status. Thank allah for conveying this good message through dr.fazl.
Dr.R.Kanagasabapathy
Peace Dr.R.Kanagasabapathy -- it's great that you helped out although has nothing to do with inheritance 411
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Peace drfazl, was tied up and still traveling although wanted to reply...
46 is not to be applied here for the ayat is concerning the orphans who have no relatives at all; or in other words abandoned by the relatives because of such misinterpretation of 411.
411 is not concerning with orphans but either of the parents and all the near and far relatives are bonded together. If you follow this ayat, there cannot be orphans at all. The ayat is all about the indebted family as the earning member, male dies. The relations of the husband play major role in streamlining the family affairs. Their first duty is to pay debts.
No, verse 46 ties to 411 which you are not reading in context are concerning children orphans and non-orphans. Your translation of luck/fortune/share as "responsibilities" makes no sense...
An Arabic-English Lexicon By Edward William Lane
, sec. pers. , (S, K,) aor. , (S,) inf. n. , (K,) He was, or became, fortunate, or possessed of good fortune...
Fortune; or particularly good fortune; syn. (S, Nh, Msb, K) and (Nh and a share, portion, or lot (S, Msb, K or particularly a share, portion, or lot, of something good or excellent...3176 ... that not he make for them share of (responsibilities?) in the afterlife and for them punishment mighty
410 surely the ones eating wealth the orphans injustice of only eating in bellies theirs fire of and will be burning a blaze
411 directs you the god in children yours lildhakari/to the male likeness share al-unthayayni/the two (f) so if kunna/are (f/p) nisan/women above two (f) falahunna/so for them (f/p) thulutha/third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/she is whidatan/one (f/s) so for her the half ...2879... said the ones desiring the life the world O would that for us like what was given Qrnu surely he owner luck/fortune/share/portion (responsibilities?) mighty
What were they envious above -- his responsibilities?
Make it clear a family in debt has no property. They are to be sold or to be mortgaged to settle debts. In addition they are to be helped by the near ones. The family members such as spouse, sons and daughters are very young and financially weak and they have no role. But father, mother, brothers, sisters of the deceased do have a role.
Unless you get this there is no seeing each other eye to eye, for fruitful discussion.
I am not ambiguous in my take. I respect your take if your understanding is original, uncontaminated by Hadiths.
What you write is not in the book; inheritance left is distributed after will and debts settled.
OK let's see who is using hadith; perhaps tell us how much responsibilities these situations?A) father and brother?
B) mother and sister (1/6 or 1/2)?
C) 2 brothers and 4 sisters?412 ... from after a will made they in it or judgment
and if he is (m/s) a man inherited kalalah or im'ra-atun/lady
and to deceased a brother or a sister so to each one from them both the sixth
so if were they greater from that so they partners in the third
from after a will is recommended in it or judgment...4176 they seek ruling yours say the god gives a ruling you in al-kalalah
if person perished is not to deceased walad/born (if no child)
and to deceased a sister so for her half what left
and he inherits it if not was for her walad/born (if no child)
so if kanata/were (f) two (f) so to them both the third dual (2/3) from what left
and if were they ikh'watun/siblings rijlan/men wanisan/and women
falildhakari/so to the male like share/fortune al-unthayayni/the two (f) -
Peace Dr.R.Kanagasabapathy -- it's great that you helped out although has nothing to do with inheritance 411
Peace noon
After reading and understanding the verse 411 it inspired me to do the help to my staff. But you are saying me it has nothing to do with 411. So what else you think inspired me other than 411?