Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaam Dear sister,
I did not have the slightest intention of being SARCASTIC in my post. I just wanted to let WRKMMN to know that, according to verses of The Qur?aan, I have the same understanding regarding RAMADZAN, i.e. the MONTH OF FASTING. I wanted to confirm that ALLAAH, swt, has ordained for us to FAST the WHOLE month of RAMADZAN, i.e. from the NEW MOON CRESENT of the NINTH month of Islamic LUNAR calendar-year to the NEW MOON CRESENT of the TENTH month, i.e. to fast either 29 or 30 consecutive days through the WHOLE month of RAMADZAN. The Qur?aan is straightforward regarding this issue. Exotic and philosophical interpretations are nothing but innovative conjectures.
And I agree with you 100% when you say ?... Allah swt is the Most High in Majesty, if He wills it anyone can understand however much they need to of the Quran - even if they only grasp a small out of Arabic...?
Our degree of Guidance doesn?t have anything to do with our academic, linguistic, theological, and whatnot knowledge.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace brother,
I wasn't really referring to you. I was also mentioning it because I've seen the sentiment expressed elsewhere on here or other places. People are free to express that, I'm just saying, it makes me wonder a little.
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It's called the Ego... or Uncontrolled Mind. It jumps at statements we hear, being very very defensive... interpreting so many things as threats against us(itself). Useless bickering, debates and arguments are a sign of the uncontrolled mind... running the show while our real selves are at it's mercy due to "unconsciousness"....
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You can see the meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab as I quoted earlier on this thread or summarized here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
Salam.
Most of your articles can no longer be seen/read in the new free-minds website. Where can we find them; especially the ones dealing with shahr ramadhan and salah/learning connection?
Alhamdulillah.
Ramon
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Peace Ramon,
Most of your articles can no longer be seen/read in the new free-minds website. Where can we find them; especially the ones dealing with shahr ramadhan and salah/learning connection?
01 - Far In The Horizon
02 - Know Thy Enemy
03 - Rules Of Engagement
04 - Free Choice
05 - The Natural Republic
06 - The Trust
07 - The Hidden Side
08 - Magic!
09 - What's In The Name
10 - Blind Dating VS Perfect Timing
11 - Language Barrier
12 - Idiot's Guide To Code 19 + The Code 19 Debate
13 - How Did It Come To This_Part 1
14 - How Did It Come To This_Part 2
15 - Introduction To PeacefulnessAbdelilah
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peace brother Ayman, all,
I finally read your article.
Firstly, thanks for sharing your research, it is appreciated.
With regard to the timing discussion, I agreed with many, not all, points in your article, as it is quite a lot to digest. I'd need to think over it some more. One question that came to my mind about your understanding was the following
2185 says whoever witnessed the shahr/full-moon should abstain it
---> you take this to mean a number of days 3-10 (if I have understood you correctly)2217 asks about the inviolable shahr/full-moon is there fighting in it
---> how long a time do you take this as?IF there is any discrepancy between the two parts in red - can you clarify/explain why, thanks.
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Peace brother Wakas.
2185 says whoever witnessed the shahr/full-moon should abstain it
---> you take this to mean a number of days 3-10 (if I have understood you correctly)As far as I know brother Ayman refers this back to 2183 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg220451;topicseen#msg220451
2217 asks about the inviolable shahr/full-moon is there fighting in it
---> how long a time do you take this as?Here we have the preposition "fi", which we do not have in 2185. Therefore I think it denotes the period delimited by those four full-moons and this is period of 3 months.
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peace brother Timur,
Thanks, I was unaware of the alternative "hu" reference. It seems theoretically possible.
In 2217 inviolable shahr is singular so to me "in it/full-moon" doesn't sound ideal. I will see what bro Ayman has to say.
As a side note, I read most of this thread today. I should have made a list of the key points I wanted to highlight but it was quite a laborious task reading all of it as it was. In any case, a few thoughts from memory
We can all (or most) agree that the traditional present-day timing system would be very difficult (perhaps impossible) to prove as per Quran.
It would have been much better if those opposed to Ayman's view presented a couple of their strongest points in a clear and concise manner - this may have prevented the thread being so long. Some did get better at doing this however.
There were a few interesting/reasonable arguments against, but most of these were clarified - thus, the original article really needs an up to date write-up to reflect this.
There was some discussion about days of abstinence being 3-10, and one thing that came to my mind is that perhaps a fixed number is not given because not everyone will witness the start/end points the same. "10 complete" in 2196 (if it is related) may be indicating that since there is no fixed number, 10 may have been the average hence it is reassuring the reader/believer that 10 is complete for them.
truthseeker171 thinks it meant 3 but one would think if it was 3 why doesn't Quran just say 3. Also, one can have witnessed the full-moon but only have one day left of it to abstain, thus I think of the options, this seems the weaker one.
There was another issue brought up by Nun/Pseudo about the weaning+bearing = 30 shahr. Even though possible explanations were given, each Nun and Ayman had their own, there seems to be another option I did some cross-reference and it seems the bearing is referring to carrying the burden, so it likely at least refers to when a bump is visible, and this about 2-4 months for most.
There were some aspects not discussed much - at least I don't think they were, e.g. how the ahilat fit into the hajj timing 2189, the issue I raised with 91-5 (see here). I also think the finding related to "al masjid al haram" may help clarify things.
Overall, I'm not entirely convinced by the full-moon theory but it does seem to be the strongest option so far. It will be much better if an updated write-up is done. It is possible it can be fine-tuned further.
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Peace all.
Wakas I would be interested to read your theory on Shahr Ramadan, if you would be so kind as to comment on what you have so far, I would really appreciate it. -
peace SD,
I haven't studied the timing, or terms, in much detail, so I don't have any strong view at the moment.
Overall, I'm not entirely convinced by the full-moon theory but it does seem to be the strongest option so far. It will be much better if an updated write-up is done. It is possible it can be fine-tuned further.
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Peace Wakas.
Thank you. I look forward to your views. -
In the middle east the moon appears more dramatic due to the dusty atmosphere of the desert which refracts the moon light even more and gives it more red appearance. The Arabs must have been fascinated by this red hot moon that signals the hot time of the year and this is why they called it the scorching full moon/"shahr ramadan". Please post pictures if you can. You can use websites such as http//tinypic.com/ to upload the pics and share the links here.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
salam,
Excuse me for my English
When I read the work of Dr. AYMAN, I ask the question of the exact date of the fasting period, despite are explanation I assumed "layl qadr" was refers to the Equinox of September and not to the summer solstice, but reading the verse 10/5 my open mind on something else.
Being that give ?manazil? means a backward step, as for the moon with one as starting with a full moon, why the Sun which is also involved in this verse would not also this specificity?
But how to measure it, since there is no system of Crescent?
It remains more than his race in the sky which allows to determine these backward steps "manazil.
so to respect the principle of ?manazil? we measure it in are the highest step to start the calculation.
still us more than the solstice the Sun highest summer before descending.
Another verse States that persons who complete the "hajj" can once again hunt. This implies that they come out of the 4 moons restrictive and that the last restricted Moon is linked to the "hajj" and not to the young.
When do you think?
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peace all,
Perhaps we can also consider
Classical Arabic usage clearly gives us the meaning of "shahr" as moon (in all its phases it seems) and month. The meaning of month is inextricably linked to moon.
Thus, does "shahr" simply mean "moon", and we must use logic/context to determine when it means "moon" and when it means "month" in Quran?
From my studies, use of logic/context to determine which meaning is meant is relatively common in Quran.Just a thought.
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When I read the work of Dr. AYMAN, I ask the question of the exact date of the fasting period, despite are explanation I assumed "layl qadr" was refers to the Equinox of September and not to the summer solstice, but reading the verse 10/5 my open mind on something else.
Peace Bachton..
I also debated this question for a very long time. This question of whether the fasting time begins with the Equinox of September or the Solstice of June. After many months of pondering, I have come to accept the Solstice theory (around June 21-23) as the most viable one. Let me explain to you why, very briefly
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat, while "shahr" means "that which is the clear mark or announcement of something". The Arabs used to call the moon "shahr" when it became fat and neared fullness (because it became clear and apparent). Hence, "Shahr Ramadan" is that moon which annouces / makes clear the period of heat.
The reason why September was fitted into the equation is because the term "Ramdhiyy" was given to the rain when it fell upon the hot ground. They assumed that because we have rain mixing with hot earth, this must mean that we are in autumn. But this is only from the point of view of those who live in climates where the rain season happens to start in September. But this is not so in many areas of the world. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the rainy season is during March/April. That marks the end of the cold season there. It never rains there in September. (Those members who live in Saudi Arabia can confirm this). In many parts of Europe and North America, the rainy season is in summer, where the most savage of thunderstorms and torrential rain can be witnessed in June or July, when the earth is hot from the summer. So their Ramdhiyy comes in June.
As you can see, inserting rain into the picture will only serve to confuse matters. Simply stick to the original meaning of the root "Ra-Mim-Dad", which means "HEAT". And what better marker (shahr) we have to announce the begining of the heat season than the full moon of the summer Solstice, when the moon is exceptionally large over the horizon, and assumes a distinct orange hue?
Isn't this better than blindly following Sistani or the Mufti of Saudi Arabia, or Hassan Fadhlallah, and the other so-called "marja3s", who resort to their esoteric "calculations" and often reach contradicting results for no better reason than to spite each other and increase the sectarian division among their followers, to achieve their own worldly ends?
Now since the moon is measured in descending stages ("manazil", until it assumes the appearence of a thin, curved sheath, this means that if you count 10 days from the occurence of the super full moon of the Solstice, you arrive at the "hilal" (crescent), which marks the end of your fast.
So far, I think this is the most logical and convincing formula put forth.
Another verse States that persons who complete the "hajj" can once again hunt. This implies that they come out of the 4 moons restrictive and that the last restricted Moon is linked to the "hajj" and not to the young.
When do you think?
Yes, there is clearly a period of restirction from hunting, which the Quran states is 4 "ashhur". Even if we translate this as 4 months, it would still contradict the mockery being practiced today in Makkah, where they put on their so-called "Ihram Dress" and abstain for a mere 4 or 5 days while they are conducting their rituals. Is this really the "ihram" mentioned in the Quran?
Although I am certain that Ramadhan comes in summer, I am inclined to believe - for now - that the period of Hajj may be the spring months which end immediately before Ramadan. Hence late February until the Solstice of June is the period when hunting game is prohibitted.
Thanks for your input.
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Salam Wakas ,
In my understanding the answer to your below question
Thus, does "shahr" simply mean "moon", and we must use logic/context to determine when it means "moon" and when it means "month" in Quran?
From my studies, use of logic/context to determine which meaning is meant is relatively common in Quran.
Just a though
lies on your same post in first statement below
The meaning of month is inextricably linked to moon.
Salam Pazuzu ,
The word "Ramadhan" means the time/condition of heat.
I believe too that rmdh is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below
Salam Dear All ,
Some Arabic linguistic illustration from The Qur'an
Difference between Al-Rahman & Al-Rahim
Al-Rahman is under the pattern Fa3lan
Al-Rahim is under the pattern Fa3ilThe Pattern Fa3lan indicate
- Incidence ( )
- Regeneration ( )
- Fullness ( )
- Reaching the Maximum of the description ( )
Ex Ghadban / Angry , Mean he was full of anger , the anger regenerate that it reach its maximum .
Mean that the rmdh has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
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Salam Wakas ,
In my understanding the answer to your below question
lies on your same post in first statement below
Salam Pazuzu ,
I believe too that rmdh is to indicate a seasonal period , but i personally do not see that is about the period of maximum heat , the word ramdhaan is following too the pattern fa3lan explained below
Mean that the rmdh has accrued and expended to reach it's maximum , then the rmdh will finish after reaching the stage of its fullness . So yes the term shahr Ramadan is pointing to the period where the rmdh has reached its maximum.
This thread theory believe that Ramadhan is the scorching heat period , i personally don't think so and i will inshaA allaah try to prove that from the Quran and connected to other evidence .
The whole theory of the period of Ramadan and the concept and nature and the length of the fast is not consistent according to this thread and need major reviewing so we come inchaA allaah to the better understanding , with respect to the sincere effort ,study and research of who contributed to uncover the veils about this topic , and may allaah reward them for their sincere effort and guide us all to what is nearer to this in comprehension .
peace,
HelloSorry for my English
Verse 10/5 uses "manazil' for the Moon and the Sun, so if ?manazil? is a backward step, this explains clearly that for the Moon that begins with the full moon as the stress Dr. Ayman, but also to the Sun and it cannot start with the summer solstice since (c) its highest point in a year.
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
Which confirms the theory of Dr. Ayman in explaining that the year begins with the summer solstice.
What do you think.
do you speack french??????
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peace,
So when verse 10/5 use them term following 'Sun and Moon', why link only the Moon and not the Sun which is also measured in backward step.
See
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=10&verse=5#(1051)Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan wa alqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila...
red = feminine
blue = masculine
hu = masculine singular"...qaddara/determined hu/it manazila/phases..."
