Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers

Mazhar

Peace,

Does 4/102 describe a physical prostration or something else?
Is 4/103 incumbent upon Mumins (49/15) and not upon Muslims (49/14) to observe the physical Salat?
Does 2/43 refer to physical bowing or obeisance?

God bless

peace

Salamun alaika,

In relation to As-Salat it signifies nothing else but prostration.

The meanings of its Root described in lexicons and its use in different relational and semantic fields is elaborated in this compilation

Affectionate surrender of one's will and freedom/liberty-Forehead on the ground

It is also covered in the following sub topic of compilation on Assalat

It is Gesture-speech, highest communicative dynamism Sublime submission of servitude and allegiance;

hawk99

Peace Mazhar,

"This fact alone suffices to portray that is a physical protocol. The basic perception infolded in the Root Root " " and Verbal Noun is of standing; straight position on feet as distinct from sitting, reclining or lying; or walking. In physical terms it is the most stable, established state of strength, alertness and equilibrium which other postures of sitting, reclining and lying flat lack. This state grants an ability to quickly react and respond to a sudden threat/attack.

Balance and equilibrium strengths a thing and grants stability, prominence and durability. Balance and equilibrium also create a stationary state. This Root thus also conveys the meaning of staying somewhere. And the point of staying becomes a place of gathering. Balance and equilibrium yields state of peace and tranquility. In whatever shade the words derived from this Root are used the; perception of balance and equilibrium, which is the primary condition of standing erect, shall remain predominant/prevail."

Does this mean that because standing is a physical act, what follows is also done physically
i.e., bowing then prostrating?

God bless

savage_carrot

The point in time in human history when Salaat was prescribed and ordered to be institutionalized

Point #2? Which verse/s therein are you using for proving that salat wasn't present in any way, shape or form prior to 'institutionalisation' of salat as you put it?

Why is 'institutionalising' salat taken to mean the origination of a new and special concept which wasn't present previously before Ibrahim rather than it being something that points towards community wide establishment, instead of salat suddenly dropping down from the sky out of the blue? It would be like one person cleaning the litter from their sidewalk everyday (voluntarily/because they believe it is required of them personally) moving to lots of people cleaning the litter from their sidewalks everyday; the community requires it. Does that mean cleaning the litter from their sidewalks is a new and original concept that did not exist prior to it being required of/established within the community?

peace

ansmeh1998

Salam,

Brother Mazhar has blatantly ignored the fact that Sunnatullah exist from time immemorial and never changes. He has chosen to wishfully ignore the verses - 684 and 4213. He has conveniently put Prophet Idris(PBUH) mentioned in 1956 before Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) in the timeline. He is nurturing biased understanding with respect to 1958-59. I don't know why he is hell bent to seal the fate of the prophets and their followers prior to Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) to dwell in the Hell for not being observant of Salat (obviously) with respect to 7442-43 and 530-31.

It is a lecture without support.

Alas! I could qualify to deliver a lecture to you. But wait till your chest is opened by the grace of Allah(swt).

Salaam!

Mazhar

Salam,

Brother Mazhar has blatantly ignored the fact that Sunnatullah exist from time immemorial and never changes. He has chosen to wishfully ignore the verses - 684 and 4213. He has conveniently put Prophet Idris(PBUH) mentioned in 1956 before Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) in the timeline. He is nurturing biased understanding with respect to 1958-59. I don't know why he is hell bent to seal the fate of the prophets and their followers prior to Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) to dwell in the Hell for not being observant of Salat (obviously) with respect to 7442-43 and 530-31.

Alas! I could qualify to deliver a lecture to you. But wait till your chest is opened by the grace of Allah(swt).

Salaam!

What Sunnatullah has to do with Salat?
Where did I place Idris alahissalam in timeline before Ibrahim alahissalam. Rather it was specifically asked and I replied in some post.

You have not quoted a Messenger before Ibrahim alahissalam who prescribed Salat for his nation while whatever they said to their nations is recorded in Qur'aan in their episodes.

Mazhar

Point #2? Which verse/s therein are you using for proving that salat wasn't present in any way, shape or form prior to 'institutionalisation' of salat as you put it?

Why is 'institutionalising' salat taken to mean the origination of a new and special concept which wasn't present previously before Ibrahim rather than it being something that points towards community wide establishment, instead of salat suddenly dropping down from the sky out of the blue? It would be like one person cleaning the litter from their sidewalk everyday (voluntarily/because they believe it is required of them personally) moving to lots of people cleaning the litter from their sidewalks everyday; the community requires it. Does that mean cleaning the litter from their sidewalks is a new and original concept that did not exist prior to it being required of/established within the community?

peace

Salamun alaiki,

Not to quote Arabic grammar; only to say that in English sentences one takes care of the timeline when time adverbs are used therein to perceive the point in time a promulgation was enforced. Ignoring it, one might take liberties and eventually pay for it.

The first Ayah 2125 quoted in the sub topic about institutionalization or origination of Salat begins with time adverb and then is the point in time when it was enforced.

The point in time when We had We appointed and declared "The House" as the place of pilgrimage-return-assembly for the people and as a place of safety-shelter-amnesty
We had ordered to the effect "you people adopt a part of standing place of Iebra'heim around the House; where he stood while raising it, as assembly place of As-sa'laat Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance".

Mazhar

Peace Mazhar,

"This fact alone suffices to portray that is a physical protocol. The basic perception infolded in the Root Root " " and Verbal Noun is of standing; straight position on feet as distinct from sitting, reclining or lying; or walking. In physical terms it is the most stable, established state of strength, alertness and equilibrium which other postures of sitting, reclining and lying flat lack. This state grants an ability to quickly react and respond to a sudden threat/attack.

Balance and equilibrium strengths a thing and grants stability, prominence and durability. Balance and equilibrium also create a stationary state. This Root thus also conveys the meaning of staying somewhere. And the point of staying becomes a place of gathering. Balance and equilibrium yields state of peace and tranquility. In whatever shade the words derived from this Root are used the; perception of balance and equilibrium, which is the primary condition of standing erect, shall remain predominant/prevail."

Does this mean that because standing is a physical act, what follows is also done physically
i.e., bowing then prostrating?

God bless

Salamun alaika

You are directed to kneel and to prostrate.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.043/180.%20Warkauo%20Ra%20Kaaf%20Ain/2.gif They perform the act and remain for sometime in the state signified by the Verbal Noun . Classical Arabic lexicons state its basic perception as bending and curving on knees with palms of hands resting on them. The Root also denotes humility and self-abasement .

In this posture the Spinal Cord is in submissive and humble posture. The spinal cord is termed as the pathway-a bridge between the human brains and various organs of the body. However, the spinal cord can function on its own at times without the brain coming into picture. Notwithstanding the speed of information travel from the body to brain and back is very fast, it is not enough at times. In certain situations information needs faster travel to coordinate reflexes when the spinal cord takes the matters into its own hands.

Such overtake of authority by the spinal cord is usually in threat and danger situations. Allah the Exalted has taken care of this "dictatorial function" of the spinal cord and has granted relaxations and modifications to cope with such circumstances.

savage_carrot

Not to quote Arabic grammar; only to say that in English sentences one takes care of the timeline when time adverbs are used therein to perceive the point in time a promulgation was enforced. Ignoring it, one might take liberties and eventually pay for it.
I asked how institutionalisation of x is giving credence to the idea that x is non existent in any way/shape/form prior to whenever said institutionalisation takes place. I'm not asking about 'time adverbs' nor am I arguing about things that may have been institutionalised or whatever. New law doesn't mean that no one practised/knew of x before x was made into a new law. Once again, a person can choose to be a teetotaler for whatever reason, doesn't mean that the concept of abstaining from alcohol (x) once made into a law is a new concept. It can be a new law, sure... even the concept of laws for a community can be new, doesn't mean that the concepts of x that are made into laws are new/unknown previously.

The first Ayah 2125 quoted in the sub topic about institutionalization or origination of Salat begins with time adverb and then is the point in time when it was enforced.

"

The point in time when We had We appointed and declared "The House" as the place of pilgrimage-return-assembly for the people and as a place of safety-shelter-amnesty
We had ordered to the effect "you people adopt a part of standing place of Iebra'heim around the House; where he stood while raising it, as assembly place of As-sa'laat Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance".
"

Mazhar

I asked how institutionalisation of x is giving credence to the idea that x is non existent in any way/shape/form prior to whenever said institutionalisation takes place. I'm not asking about 'time adverbs' nor am I arguing about things that may have been institutionalised or whatever. New law doesn't mean that no one practised/knew of x before x was made into a new law.

Anything done that becomes a practice has its originator who performed it for the first time. So every act has point in time of its first occurrence and a performer. Qur'aan associates its first performance to Ibrahim alahisalam and to the point in time when the House of Allah had been built.

Bender

Anything done that becomes a practice has its originator who performed it for the first time. So every act has point in time of its first occurrence and a performer. Qur'aan associates its first performance to Ibrahim alahisalam and to the point in time when the House of Allah had been built.

Salaamun alayka,

Are you referring to " "?
If so do you mean that whenever is used that act happened for the first time?
If so, then I think it is interesting, I have to check that.

Salaam,
Bender

savage_carrot

Anything done that becomes a practice has its originator who performed it for the first time. So every act has point in time of its first occurrence and a performer. Qur'aan associates its first performance to Ibrahim alahisalam and to the point in time when the House of Allah had been built.

Can you please give me the verse/s where the Qur'aan associates the first ever salat performance in the history of the world to Ibrahim? Is it 1440? 2125? Or perhaps another? Or like Bender asked...is it something particular you are basing this on within the verses themselves?

hawk99

Peace,

My question is, did any prophet make this request before Abraham?

Recall that Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me
and my children from worshiping idols.

"My Lord, they have misled so many people. As for those who follow me, they
belong with me. As for those who disobey me, You are Forgiver, Most Merciful.

"Our Lord, I have settled part of my family in this plantless valley, at Your Sacred
House. Our Lord, they are to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), so let throngs of people
converge upon them, and provide for them all kinds of fruits, that they may be appreciative.

"Our Lord, You know whatever we conceal and whatever we declare- nothing is
hidden from GOD on earth, nor in the heavens.

"Praise be to GOD for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac.
My Lord answers the prayers.

"My Lord, make me one who consistently observes the Contact Prayers (Salat),
and also my children. Our Lord, please answer my prayers.

Which prophets/messengers asked God to have them consistently observes the Contact
Prayers before Abraham.

God bless

peace

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 024254 PM
Anything done that becomes a practice has its originator who performed it for the first time. So every act has point in time of its first occurrence and a performer. Qur'aan associates its first performance to Ibrahim alahisalam and to the point in time when the House of Allah had been built.

Can you please give me the verse/s where the Qur'aan associates the first ever salat performance in the history of the world to Ibrahim? Is it 1440? 2125? Or perhaps another? Or like Bender asked...is it something particular you are basing this on within the verses themselves?

Further be informed At the point in time We appointed and declared "The House" as the place of pilgrimage-return-assembly for the people; and as a place of safety-shelter-amnesty
We had ordered to the effect "you people adopt a part of standing place of Iebra'heim around the House; where he stood while raising it, as assembly place of As-sa'laat Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance".
Moreover, We had imposed a pledge-enjoined duty upon Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile .
The assigned responsibility was "You both manage and maintain the cleanliness-sanctity of My House for those people who walk around it; and for those who stay around it; and for those who perform act of kneeling coupled with the trait as performers of prostration".

Recommencing/ Conjunction particle---It is discourse coordinator.
Adverb of time. It indicates the point in time

What had happened; in Arabic parsing same English grammar is described and it is told Verb Perfect Doubly transitive; First person; plural + Suffixed Subject Personal pronoun, in nominative state. We had declared

Declared what Two objects of the verb. "The House" as the place of pilgrimage-return-assembly for the people; and as a place of safety-shelter-amnesty

And We had ordered to the effect "You people adopt a part of standing place of Iebra'heim around the House; where he stood while raising it, as assembly place of As-sa'laat Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance".

At that point in time in history it was also enjoined upon the masons of the House

Moreover, We had imposed a pledge-enjoined duty upon Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile .
The assigned responsibility was "You both manage and maintain the cleanliness-sanctity of My House for those people who walk around it; and for those who stay around it; and for those who perform act of kneeling coupled with the trait as performers of prostration".

savage_carrot

Further be informed At the point in time We appointed and declared "The House" as the place of pilgrimage-return-assembly for the people; and as a place of safety-shelter-amnesty
We had ordered to the effect "you people adopt a part of standing place of Iebra'heim around the House; where he stood while raising it, as assembly place of As-sa'laat Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance".
Moreover, We had imposed a pledge-enjoined duty upon Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile .
The assigned responsibility was "You both manage and maintain the cleanliness-sanctity of My House for those people who walk around it; and for those who stay around it; and for those who perform act of kneeling coupled with the trait as performers of prostration".

Recommencing/ Conjunction particle---It is discourse coordinator.
Adverb of time. It indicates the point in time

What had happened; in Arabic parsing same English grammar is described and it is told Verb Perfect Doubly transitive; First person; plural + Suffixed Subject Personal pronoun, in nominative state. We had declared

Declared what Two objects of the verb. "The House" as the place of pilgrimage-return-assembly for the people; and as a place of safety-shelter-amnesty

And We had ordered to the effect "You people adopt a part of standing place of Iebra'heim around the House; where he stood while raising it, as assembly place of As-sa'laat Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and allegiance".

At that point in time in history it was also enjoined upon the masons of the House

Moreover, We had imposed a pledge-enjoined duty upon Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile .
The assigned responsibility was "You both manage and maintain the cleanliness-sanctity of My House for those people who walk around it; and for those who stay around it; and for those who perform act of kneeling coupled with the trait as performers of prostration".

Are you saying whenever wa-idh is used, that's the first time for anything involved in that verse? If so, please explain/prove. If not, then this is just a repetition.

Mazhar

Are you saying whenever wa-idh is used, that's the first time for anything involved in that verse? If so, please explain/prove. If not, then this is just a repetition.

In languages every word signifies specific meanings. "Iz" time adverb refers to the point in time when an act-incident-accident-happening-command-promulgation surfaces for the people. It does not refer to the timeline prior to it. It is not a time adverb of frequency-how often. It is specific and exclusive to information about what happened after that point in time.

You will not find this time adverb used in any other manner in Qur'aan.

First occurrence in 230
Know the history of the point in time when your Sustainer Lord had said to the Angles;
"Be informed; I am placing-declaring Adam in the Earth as self-governor enjoying freedom-discretion-free will of self rule-decision-governance".

Bender

In languages every word signifies specific meanings. "Iz" time adverb refers to the point in time when an act-incident-accident-happening-command-promulgation surfaces for the people. It does not refer to the timeline prior to it. It is not a time adverb of frequency-how often. It is specific and exclusive to information about what happened after that point in time.

You will not find this time adverb used in any other manner in Qur'aan.

First occurrence in 230
Know the history of the point in time when your Sustainer Lord had said to the Angles;
"Be informed; I am placing-declaring Adam in the Earth as self-governor enjoying freedom-discretion-free will of self rule-decision-governance".

Saaamun alayka,

I like to fully understand what you are claiming regarding 230.

a) Allah for the first time in history said something.
b) Allah for the first time in history said something to almalaikat.
c) Allah for the first time in history said to almalaikat that he is plaing a khalifa on earth.
d) something else

if d then please clarify.

thank you,
Bender

Mazhar

Saaamun alayka,

I like to fully understand what you are claiming regarding 230.

a) Allah for the first time in history said something.
b) Allah for the first time in history said something to almalaikat.
c) Allah for the first time in history said to almalaikat that he is plaing a khalifa on earth.
d) something else

if d then please clarify.

thank you,
Bender

a) Allah the Exalted when-a certain point in time said the narrated particular information to Angels they had responded saying---------.
It does not mean that He the Exalted spoke for the first time in history or spoke for the first time to Angels. But that particular statement is said for the first time. It is one time solitary occurrence in history.

savage_carrot

In languages every word signifies specific meanings. "Iz" time adverb refers to the point in time when an act-incident-accident-happening-command-promulgation surfaces for the people. It does not refer to the timeline prior to it. It is not a time adverb of frequency-how often. It is specific and exclusive to information about what happened after that point in time.

You will not find this time adverb used in any other manner in Qur'aan.

First occurrence in 230
Know the history of the point in time when your Sustainer Lord had said to the Angles;
"Be informed; I am placing-declaring Adam in the Earth as self-governor enjoying freedom-discretion-free will of self rule-decision-governance".

A time adverb about time, will wonders never cease. How does that relate to 'act-incident-accident-happening-command-promulgation' happening for the 'first time ever' in the history of the universe?...At the most one could say the event is unique, as is every event really...but the content itself? Very difficult to prove given all the occurrences in the quran of said phrase, unless one believes that lack of mention anywhere else is somehow evidence/proof.

4326 And when Abraham said to his father and his people, "Indeed, I am disassociated from that which you worship"

one part of this is the content, one part is the 'unique' event etc. Prove that it was the first time ever in the history of the universe a guided person/prophet/whatever said this content? Just because one claims it isn't mentioned anywhere else does not mean proof. Just because wa idh is used doesn't make it a first time ever occurrence, it simply means 'and when' x happened, y was said/done/etc. There is no need to complicate things using one phrase as a font pouring out wisdom by the bucketloads on everything else in the same sentence; one can read and understand it as is. Everyone can understand 'And when Mazhar created the thread about salat, many people posted on it'...instead of wa idh being the end all be all of everything that one wants to wring out of a verse to suit their fancy = it was the first/only time Mazhar ever created a thread about salat in the history of the universe, and many people posted on it. It is an assumption, not proof.

But that particular statement is said for the first time. It is one time solitary occurrence in history.
Wa idh isn't proving that it was the first time ever in history that Allah spoke a particular statement for the only time ever, God help us. It is simply stating 'and when x happened'.

ansmeh1998

Salam,

(i) Only Deen approved in the sight of Allah(swt) is Islam for all times (Quran ? 319 refers)
(ii) Whatever in the heavens and the earth follows the approved Deen. (Quran ? 383 refers)
(iii) The same Deen which was enjoined upon Prophet Nuh(PBUH) was re-directed to Porphet Ibrahim, Moosa, Eissa and finally Prophet Ahmad (Peace be upon them all) (Quran ? 4213 refers)
(iv) The guidance bestowed upon Prophet Noah (PBUH) was alike to Prophet Ibrahim and others (PBUT) (Quran- 684 refers)
(v) Those who are among the observant of Salat and Zakat are among the fraternity of the approved Deen. (Quran ? 911 refers)
(vi) Everybody in the past had been commanded to serve Allah, with utter sincerity, devoting themselves exclusively to Him, and observe Salat and Zakah, as that is the approved Deen. (Quran ? 985 refers)

Given the above, to the best of my acumen I understand that Salat was enjoined upon all the Prophets and not only starting from Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH).

Salam!

Mazhar

savage_carrot At the most one could say the event is unique, as is every event really...but the content itself?

The content of the issue under discussion is about a unique event. And unique means being the only one of a kind; limited to a particular person or thing.

If it is not accepted as unique, then positive evidence is required to show it did happen or was practiced in timeline before Ibrahim alahissalam. In the absence of such evidence; its uniqueness cannot be challenged.
Hadith mongers are the exception who imagine Ka'aba was raised by Nuh alahissalam.