Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers
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And what exactly should he make public? And to who? And does an anknowlegement of that/those person(s) make him a momin? And to who did they (=the ones to who he had to make it public to validate his imam) make it public?
One should scream "I'M MOMIN" in every public library...until they throw you out. Or one could whisper "I'm Batman" but doubt it would have the intended effect. -
Salam Mazhar,
I was away for a while so could not follow this topic. Sorry about that.
Continuing ...
Can I ask why you have conveniently avoided answering the key question in post # 50?
From post # 50
I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual.The traditional translation of 1187 is
They said, "O Shu'ayb, does your prayer command you that we should leave what our fathers worship or not do with our wealth what we please? Indeed, you are the forbearing, the discerning!"
How does "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" or prayer ritual command Shuaib to involve himself in other's affairs?
If Salat is to be performed by Shuaib as a ritual 5 times a day, it should have no bearing on the lives of the Madyan people.
Just peruse the text where AsSallat is discussed and you will find all such reformative instructions alongwith it prescribed for People of Book, and believers.
Shouldn't that ring a bell then that salat is much more than a ritual?
Also please provide real world examples of how ritually praying 5 times a day by an individual helps with reforming a society?
And can you do me a favor and not overuse the rules of grammar as arguments in your posts. At the end of the day, salat is a noun and we are trying to assign meaning to this word based not only on rules of grammar but also the words (that have their own meaning) that surround this noun.
Thanks
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And can you do me a favor and not overuse the rules of grammar as arguments in your posts. At the end of the day, salat is a noun and we are trying to assign meaning to this word based not only on rules of grammar but also the words (that have their own meaning) that surround this noun.
Ayahs are quoted in the Article which show all the words related to this noun.
Grammar is needed for the parsing of the sentence to know inter relationship of words and their role for determining semantics of the sentence. -
Pl visit page 6.
People are addressing the Messenger and are talking about what is expected from them according to Messenger's message. He is demonstrating in his Salat absolute and sole allegiance to one Sustainer Lord.
Peace Mazhar,
I am not sure where you are asking me to look??
In any case, you have initiated this thread with a very confrontational title and yet you continue to avoid a direct question that I have asked you more than a few times concerning Shuaib's salat. This is very unfortunate (
I have also looked at your article and I can see you have added your own understanding of salat in many places that has absolutely no support from words in Quran verses you have quoted. An example, in your article, you translate the verse below as
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/023.%20Al%20Momenoon/23.009a.gif
And the true believers who have attained perpetual success are those who remain vigilant for regularly performing their Sala'waat Five time bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance.
Even a layman like me can see that the verb used with noun alawtihim is to guard. There is no verb that equates to "to perform" yet you have chosen to extrapolate your own understanding to translate this verse. To repeat the only action on the noun Salat in this verse is to guard and NOT to perform prayers 5 times a day as you suggest in your article. Why someone who has a very strong grasp of the Arabic language would choose to translate the verse in this way is completely beyond me?
You have also not addressed 1187 in your article which makes it an incomplete document in which you liberally add the verb "to perform" in the english translation even though it does not exist in the arabic text to support your case that salat is a ritual to be "performed" 5 times a day.
To conclude, you have answer the following 2 questions (for now as I have many more) for the title you have given this thread to have some merit.
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From post # 50
I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual. -
Where is the equivalent word for "to perform" that you keep using in your translations to be found in the Quran?
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Ayahs are quoted in the Article which show all the words related to this noun.
Grammar is needed for the parsing of the sentence to know inter relationship of words and their role for determining semantics of the sentence.Quoting the rules of grammar are meaningless if you avoid a direct question I have asked you multiple times.
peace.
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Even a layman like me can see that the verb used with noun alawtihim is to guard. There is no verb that equates to "to perform" yet you have chosen to extrapolate your own understanding to translate this verse. To repeat the only action on the noun Salat in this verse is to guard and NOT to perform prayers 5 times a day as you suggest in your article. Why someone who has a very strong grasp of the Arabic language would choose to translate the verse in this way is completely beyond me?
Do you think that "alawtihim" is some sunstance-object which they have to guard upon?
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You have also not addressed 1187 in your article which makes it an incomplete document in which you liberally add the verb "to perform" in the english translation even though it does not exist in the arabic text to support your case that salat is a ritual to be "performed" 5 times a day.
If it is not so, then what is that which is related to five times of the day with verb "to establish"?
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Do you think that "alawtihim" is some sunstance-object which they have to guard upon?
Once you see Salaat as something other than a ritual, perhaps things may become a littler clearer. However, my main concern with your translation is why are you using additional verbs that do not exist in the arabic text just so that the meaning conforms to your belief system?
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What is signified by "more"?
This is not the answer I was looking for (
It should be clear by now I am opposed to the idea of Salaat being a ritual. That is what 'more' alludes to. -
If it is not so, then what is that which is related to five times of the day with verb "to establish"?
Are you suggesting to perform = to establish? That is the problem I have with those who believe Salaat is a ritual. They invent their own meanings of the words when the original meanings of those words are well established.
The bottom line is Aqimu does NOT mean to perform. It is a figment of your imagination and its erroneous presence forms an integral part of the misleading article you wrote on Salaat suggesting it is some kind of ritual
Apologies if I sound a little abrupt.
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But what is that "something"? Unless one knows "something" how one can become more clearer instead of becoming more of an idiot?
Once you agree that the title of your thread is inconsistent with what is stated in the Quran maybe we can focus on the meaning noun itself. Till then I have to focus on the verbs and meaning of those verbs because it is the meaning of those verbs you are changing to fit the ritualistic concept of salaat in your belief system
Do you agree that there is no verb "to perform" associated with the the noun Salaat? If you do not, please provide evidence on what basis you use "to perform" in your translations.
thanks.
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god1quran1
Salam,Sorry you move quickly slipping on all sides of the floor. Why not you say in simple words what is As-Salat if it is "something" in your perception; and is not a Protocol ? What is its substance-solid, liquid, or air or of black matter?
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Dear all,
May peace be upon you.
God has assured us the protection of the 'dhikr' (reminder) in the Quran (159). This implies both the 'words' of the Quran and an appropriate ability to discern its 'meanings'. Otherwise, the 'dhikr' would be meaningless.
The evidence of the word 'salat' to mean the 'contact prayer' is overwhelming from my point of view, and no other meaning fits better than what is commonly understood by the word 'salat'.
The various aspects of salat
? The details of ablution (443; 56)
? A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ?believers? (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
? Garments (731)
? Allusion of times (4103; 11114; 1778; 2458; 3018; 2238 205
? That prayers must be observed on time (4103)
? Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu?mins) their own Qiblah (2145)
? Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4102; 4829)
? There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2238 )
? There is a general form to prayer (2238-39).
? Standing position (339; 4102)
? Bowing down and prostrating (4102; 2226; 3824; 4829)
? Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2239)
? A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (629)
? A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (1958-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
? The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6162; 2014)
? Prayer involves utterance (443)
? The purpose to protect from sins (2945)
? What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4101)
? Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (731)
? The tone of prayer (17110)
? There is a leader of prayer (4102)
One of the meanings of the English word 'establish'
Verb
Initiate or bring about (contact or communication).Therefore, I don't see why should someone think that the word 'establish' cannot go along with the word 'prayer/connection with God'.
Regards.
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Once you agree that the title of your thread is inconsistent with what is stated in the Quran .........
What is stated in the Qur'aan signifies that the proven believers are only those who are steadfast about As-Salat.
Examine the Ayahs and rebut the thread of title with some argument
aforementioned are the proven and established believers amongst claimants of belief 804
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god1quran1
Salam,Sorry you move quickly slipping on all sides of the floor. Why not you say in simple words what is As-Salat if it is "something" in your perception; and is not a Protocol ? What is its substance-solid, liquid, or air or of black matter?
Peace Mazhar,
It is not me who is "slipping on all sides of the floor". So far you have avoided answering all of my questions. It is clear you have no answers to the questions below
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Do you agree that there is no verb "to perform" associated with the the noun Salaat? If you do not, please provide evidence on what basis you use "to perform" in your translations.
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From post # 50
I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual.
Since you initiated this thread with a very confrontational title implying that those who do not 'perform' your version of ritualistic salaat are non-believers, the onus is on you defend the claims you are making as well as your article on Salaat. Instead of providing direct answers to the questions above, you are replying by asking me what I think Salaat means. Why don't you provide a clear response to my questions first and then we can focus on the noun Salaat?
Peace.
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I think either you do not know the difference between substance and accident or you are slippery aimlessly on the entire floor. As-Salat is not a substance while it is the direct object of verb "establish" whereby it is a Protocol which you designate by ritual.
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I think either you do not know the difference between substance and accident or you are slippery aimlessly on the entire floor. As-Salat is not a substance while it is the direct object of verb "establish" whereby it is a Protocol which you designate by ritual.
And in your salaat article the verb 'establish' magically changes to 'perform' and you have the gall to tell me "I am slipping aimlessly on the entire floor"
it is clear you have no intention to engage in a meaningful debate. )
In a separate post, I will summarize my earlier posts in this thread later.
peace.