Spiritual stories and Symbolism
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The God's signs are ongoing, they do not stop. Are there still seas spiltting and sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY?
Do you want to believe literally or that that your knowledge is incapable of reaching - in other word the unseen? This is what the reading reminds you of.
Yet there are still people using debates of truth to eat up all falsehoods, there are still people making there way through unstabable socieities/governments (sea was split into two "mountains").
The whole world was against strike on Iraq, including the chief inspector Hans Blix and the UN. They all spoke the truth of "no war" against the faslehood and the pretexts of bush and blair. The truth was eatenup by the pharoas. Nearly one and half decade of debates to uphold the truth was defeated by arrogance. The similitude of what you say does not exist, world wide.
Do you mean to say the two mountains to be understood as one being bad and the other good? What is that you want to convey about the state before its split. Mutual co-existence? If so, why should it divide now?
So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.
The reading is based on the truth, the belief in the unseen, yet to be revealed as wisdom against the knowing process - the debate with the existing knowledge.
Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory". These stories are POINTING us to a certain REALITY, one that can be VERIFIED so we can know it is TRUTH, not so we can have doubt and say "MAYBE it will literally happen in the future", even though no one living can attest to such an event.
Finger is the knowledge and glory is the truth; knowledge is similitude whereas the wisdom is the truthand heavenly glory.
Yes, we cannot denounce thier dreams, but we CERTAINLY do not blindly accept them, thats the point.
Dream is surely blind to the eyes but not to the insight. Insight cannot be experimented literally/laboratory means to believe through the eyes. Your point suffers there.
Yes, the instruction is to have faith in the Unseen, NOT the unknown. Thats what you are missing.
You see through your literal eyes only what you know in the literal mind; if you want to believe in the 'unseen' you must believe what your mind does not know, i.e. the unknown. Still am i missing ? what is your say?
Give me one good reason why I should have faith that a stick has/will be turned into a LITERAL snake.
To improve your faith in the unseen and unknown; and to discard the "believing literally/symbolically"
The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understanding
Give me a break. Are you trying to tell us here that the information you are writing is some divine wisdom, while anyone who disagrees with you is only presenting wordly knowledge? Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate. I would like you to provide evidence, not hearsay.
The Reading is not hearsay for your information. And iam talking to you alone beacuse I am replying to your points. Others may be reading and watching this. That does not mean you shall include them on your side when you say "Are you trying to tell us?"
I am not saying anything about any one disagreeing with me or agreeing with me. When you say " Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate ", I will not ask you back, ' if iam illogical?' BTW, You need an evidence that has no proof. Here it is "the dream". None can give you evidence about the dream as a proof. But you have to believe in the unseen and unknown.
KNOWLEDGE does not evolve, theories evolve. Knowledge is KNOWING. Belief is what evolves until it reaches KNOWING (Knowledge), that is why the God says for us to say "My Lord, increase my KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING" He wants us to get out of mere believing which can be blind faith. He wanst us to be like scientists and to KNOW!
If you say you are speaking theories/knowledge I fully agree. You say 'knwledge will not evolve'. But in your signature you say "O Lord increase me in my knowledge!" Why did not you say 'O Lord increase me in my knowing?' There is bracket there in your reply knowledge/(knowing). Now you have started a new topic
Has knowledge evolved into knowing or knowing has evolved into knowledge?
- knowledge is knowing
- knowing is knowledge
- knowledge is not knowing
- knowing is not knowledge
We will take any of these 4 until we are settled about what is what?
He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen.
WHAT???? shockUnseen will be 'shock'ing, until the wisdom dawns upon.
Unseen means that which is not even felt
No brother, that would be NOT FELT.
tasted
That would be NOT TASTED."Unseen" not involves your eyes alone. The word means "that you do not know of your knowledge". Do not believe the 'ears' beacuse what you hear is nothing but hearsay except that is spoken to you in your mind when you ponder over. What you feel through your skin is tangible and the wind is part of it. All tangible is seen and all that in intangible is unseen is what we should imbibe. this is wisdom, ie. total belief in the "intangible unseen". Our knowledge is audo-visual which involves tangibility to the eyes and ears in "functional sense".
What is seeing? Seeing the shape and size of an object. Matereal of an object does not enter our eyes but the image of it. Only the source of the image we can feel but not the image as it enters our pupils When we see the intangible image is in our mind not the object. And we also get the truth that only the image of the objects triggers the thought process, never do the objects. This divulges the fact that the eyes have no value over the inner sensibilities. Like wise, the sensibilities of hearing shall become alive when you hear from a tangible source. Smell and taste like wise.
Now the biggest visible source is the skin. The skin is the only source that reflects our sensitivity and sensibility as the reality descends upon our hear as revelation. Even the hairs on the skin stand straight as the truth descend upon us. The skin feels both ways, ie. it feels the tangible wind from the source external to us too. Feeling through the five special sense of our body is always from a source. Like we feel the smell from a source, say a flower. We feel the hearing from a source; taste like wise from a food source. The wind is from a source like wise; the knowledge is so poor that we have not yet identified, the relatively tangible source in the atmosphere through the literal eyes.
When Allah says "You can never see Me!" it does not mean we can touch Him; smell Him; taste Him. The word "Unseen" is an example, given for the sensible application of mind so as not to include any of the senses of man given to him 'which only feels' the external sources. The Unseen is what you are revealed from inside as Allah speaks; that as you feel the nearness of Him, your fear and worry vanishes from your heart; that you get cured from your diseases and successfully come out of the adversities through the strength of invisible faith and belief unseen and unheard of; that too when all the external, including human sources of help have been exhausted and all doors are closed for you in this world.
Thus the unseen is not image oriented but also feeling oriented if you apply your mind.
We can enter into a separate discussion if you feel you want further information on this.
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
I am glad that you are aware that he did not discover America, I hope that you can bring that clear understanding to this debate.
For once you have understood my awareness. I am glad too.
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What if the changing of sticks into snakes is within the system? Can you prove it is not?
No, but what you should be asking is why would I need to prove something I have no knowledge of? The God told me not to pursue that, so how would I look trying to prove that is doesn't happen? My argument is that we have no knowledge that these things happen...
Au contraire... are you denying that you have been given knowledge of it through the great reading? That it has an existence? I think you are selectively defining symbolism according to your tastes.
There is no harm in positive and beneficial symbolism that may show us deeper or higher moral lessons. However you must not sever what God has declared to be joined (227). You cannot have the symbolism without the reality. The intangible taste of the cake cannot be enjoyed unless the physical matter is in one's mouth.
I want to draw your attention to the event of the 'big-bang' or the initiation of the universe. It is an event that for us occurred ONCE.
It has not repeated itself - and none of us did witness it - nor will we witness another event like it in our lifetimes. Does that mean that it never occurred? Because it happenned ONCE only does that invalidate it as being a part of God's system?
No, it did occur and we are told about it and all science points to it. Yet it is not part of a SYMBOLIC STORY. That is one of the Literal verses. Please understand the difference. The God gives us the STORIES as life lessons so we can use the examples to find our way through this book(life).
I had not referred to this in the context of a verse - however I will demonstrate why your arguments are largely arbitrary in the next section.
But while we are still on the big-bang I do not share your lack of enthusiasm as it relates to symbolism. As the initial great event it represents a moment that is profound as far as God's power goes.
It is the initial cause for the universe and ultimately our own selves, initiated by the One who is uncaused. I see in it the symbolism related to the spreading of truth - the spread and expansion of the universe is akin to the inevitable spread of the truth of God.
See - the "miracles" that are described in the Quran are described to us in literal ways - you may see the symbolic idea in them - good for you - but you have not proven or even come close to showing that they are not within God's system.
The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
In actual fact the symbolism is much deeper than the stories of prophets and messengers.
4111 Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come both of you together, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
Is this reality or symbolism? Do the earth and firmament really speak words like this nowadays?
There is a reality in this verse insofar as the sky and earth have indeed come together and stay together willingly - but there is also a deeper symbolism unrelated to the story of a prophet or messenger. It demonstrates the futility of resisting God - whether one is willing or unwilling all matters are finalised by Him.
The truth is to always come willingly - to hear and to obey - to submit - to believe and then to be inspired.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
Do we not agree the meaning is based on the context of the verses? Can example not do throughout, being further refined by the context of the verses?
They actually are examples, but the question is are the LITERAL examples, or Symbolic(similitude)? If it is a LITERAL example, lets say, that when one is being chased(oppressed) by a "firaun" and one reaches a sea, that one should take a stick and touch the sea and should expect the sea to spilt? How often do you expect that type ofGUIDANCE to be needed?
EVERYDAY we need people who are capable of crossing the unstable sea by creating a stable path by using the God's philosophy.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
idolfree1 wrote
The God's signs are ongoing, they do not stop. Are there still seas spiltting and sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY?Do you want to believe literally or that that your knowledge is incapable of reaching - in other word the unseen? This is what the reading reminds you of.
Its not a matter of if I WANT TO believe literally, it is not LOGICAL to believe such stories as literal because we have no knowledge of such events happening literally and we are not told CLEARLYthat they are literal stories, INSTEAD we are told that the God does NOT shy from similitudes, WHY are we told that? Because so many people DEPEND on this physical illusion, and they NEED these events to be true, but when you rise to the hieghts and start to think more abstractly (this is needed to understand ONENESS), you can see CLEARLY the wisdom in this similitudes. It is the right side of the brain that brings things together and scientists have "discovered" that pictures and metaphorical stories are recieved by this part of the brain and it is easier to digest and remember. So YES, visualize these events as they are recited, but KNOW what these SIGNS, or we can say SYMBOLS are POINTING TO. D
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Yet there are still people using debates of truth to eat up all falsehoods, there are still people making there way through unstabable socieities/governments (sea was split into two "mountains").The whole world was against strike on Iraq, including the chief inspector Hans Blix and the UN. They all spoke the truth of "no war" against the faslehood and the pretexts of bush and blair. The truth was eatenup by the pharoas. Nearly one and half decade of debates to uphold the truth was defeated by arrogance. The similitude of what you say does not exist, world wide.
Perhaps you need to clarify what part of the story you are witnessing. Did not "firaun" do great damage before he drowned in the sea(unstable society)? Certainly you don't equate John Kerry as Musa, do you? You end your statement with "world wide" as if the same event is suppossed to be going on at the same time. How man "Firauns" were being drowned in the time of Musa? The whole world? How do you reason that?
What about the Africans sold into slavery? Did they not "cross the sea"? And the Jews from hitler? Weren't they greater atrocities than the present, and the people "crossed the sea"? What about the girl who grows up getting molested but is able to maintain her mind state and grows up to be successful and justice comes to the molester? Did she not "cross the sea"? You say I should have patience to see these events literally, I say you should have patience to see these events unfolding in front of your eyes. The Guidance is for our spiritual cultivation RIGHT NOW, the signs are from the horizons to within your minds(nafs).
Do you mean to say the two mountains to be understood as one being bad and the other good? What is that you want to convey about the state before its split. Mutual co-existence? If so, why should it divide now?
I am saying clearly that large bodies of water represnet unstable societies. Musa touched the sea with his stick, that which he leaned on and directed his flock with(the philosophy of Monotheism), and it SPILT into two "MOUNTAINS". Mountains represent stability, they stabilize the Earth, and they symbolize governments(that which is menat to stabalize a community). Remember when Noah built the STABLE ark becuase the UNSTABLE flood was coming to drown everyone? His son said;
(1143) He said, "I will take shelter/refuge to a mountain (that) protects/shelters me from the water." He said "(There is) no protector/shelterer today, from The God's order/command except who He had mercy upon." And the waves/surges came in between/intervened between them (B), so he was from drowned/sunken.
Isnt it true that the "red states" in america have followed the path of Noah's son? Haven't they taken refuge to some GOVERNMENT which will not be able to help them against the flood (Unstable society runing rampant) that is fast approaching?
But you can continue your path of waiting for these events to happen again just like others are waiting for thier "messiahs" to return, I am walking the CLEAR PATH of KNOWING, peacefully, cause that is the protection. D
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So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.The reading is based on the truth, the belief in the unseen, yet to be revealed as wisdom against the knowing process - the debate with the existing knowledge.
I don't know what you mean, could you be more clear, give some verses, and relate this to everyday life please?
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Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory". These stories are POINTING us to a certain REALITY, one that can be VERIFIED so we can know it is TRUTH, not so we can have doubt and say "MAYBE it will literally happen in the future", even though no one living can attest to such an event.Finger is the knowledge and glory is the truth; knowledge is similitude whereas the wisdom is the truthand heavenly glory.
Yes, knowledge points you to wisdom, thats correct.
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Yes, we cannot denounce thier dreams, but we CERTAINLY do not blindly accept them, thats the point.Dream is surely blind to the eyes but not to the insight. Insight cannot be experimented literally/laboratory means to believe through the eyes. Your point suffers there.
The key word being "inSIGHT". You KNOW it when you SEE it.
So is your argument that Musa had a DREAM that he threw a stick and it became active?
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Yes, the instruction is to have faith in the Unseen, NOT the unknown. Thats what you are missing.You see through your literal eyes only what you know in the literal mind
That is your assumption, which is clearly wrong.
; if you want to believe in the 'unseen' you must believe what your mind does not know, i.e. the unknown. Still am i missing ? what is your say?
If you are saying that one can "believe" something that what does not KNOW(have knowledge about), then YES, you are still missing. Do you believe in "iutidkowhdpid"? Of course not, how could you believe in something you don't have knowledge of? It is said that Jesus is coming back to kill the pigs and break crosses, are you saying we should "believe" what we have no knowledge of?
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Give me one good reason why I should have faith that a stick has/will be turned into a LITERAL snake.To improve your faith in the unseen and unknown; and to discard the "believing literally/symbolically"
No, so I can be a slave, no thanks.
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The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understandingGive me a break. Are you trying to tell us here that the information you are writing is some divine wisdom, while anyone who disagrees with you is only presenting wordly knowledge? Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate. I would like you to provide evidence, not hearsay.
The Reading is not hearsay for your information
What do you mean this reading(quran) is not hearsay? EVERYTHING is hearsay until you VERIFY it as TRUTH? Didn't the God tell you to look for contradictions so you can know if a reading is from the God or not? You mean to tell me that someone just gave you a book and said that it was from some "object" called "God" and you just believed it? What was the DISTIGUISHING FACTOR from you "believing" in THIS reading(quran) as oppossed to another like the Bible, or the Book of Scientology, or The Hindu books, etc? Please answer.
. And iam talking to you alone beacuse I am replying to your points. Others may be reading and watching this. That does not mean you shall include them on your side when you say "Are you trying to tell us?"
I practice the thought of ONENESS, so I include YOU in "US" as well.
I am not saying anything about any one disagreeing with me or agreeing with me. When you say " Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate ", I will not ask you back, ' if iam illogical?' BTW, You need an evidence that has no proof. Here it is "the dream". None can give you evidence about the dream as a proof. But you have to believe in the unseen and unknown.
A dream is SEEN with INSIGHT. And it is this INSIGHT that is required to see the SYMBOLISMS. The God tells us that it is not the blindness of the eye, but the blindness of the heart that is the problem. We can all see clearly that these STORIES are going on everyday. But we do not have the INSIGHT that allows us to see that these events are not literal, but symbolic.
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KNOWLEDGE does not evolve, theories evolve. Knowledge is KNOWING. Belief is what evolves until it reaches KNOWING (Knowledge), that is why the God says for us to say "My Lord, increase my KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING" He wants us to get out of mere believing which can be blind faith. He wanst us to be like scientists and to KNOW!If you say you are speaking theories/knowledge I fully agree.
Then you do not agree because theories(guessing) is not equal to knowledge(truth).
You say 'knwledge will not evolve'. But in your signature you say "O Lord increase me in my knowledge!" Why did not you say 'O Lord increase me in my knowing?' There is bracket there in your reply knowledge/(knowing).
We say , "My Lord, increase my knowledge/knowing" so that we can continue to KNOW MORE AND MORE THINGS! If you have one coin, and you ask your boss for an increase in coins, do the coins in your pocket EVOLVE? Or Do you get more coins? Please be patient brother so that you can understand me clearly.
Now you have started a new topic
We have already clarified this above, but I will answer the questions for clarity.
Has knowledge evolved into knowing or knowing has evolved into knowledge?
Knowledge IS knowing. D
- knowledge is knowing
- knowing is knowledge
- knowledge is not knowing
- knowing is not knowledge
We will take any of these 4 until we are settled about what is what?
I pick both 1 & 2.
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He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen.
WHAT????Unseen will be 'shock'ing, until the wisdom dawns upon.
Ok.
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Unseen means that which is not even felt
No brother, that would be NOT FELT.
tasted
That would be NOT TASTED."Unseen" not involves your eyes alone.
Correct, but it certainly does not involve hearing, tasting, feeling as you tried to imply.
The word means "that you do not know of your knowledge". Do not believe the 'ears' beacuse what you hear is nothing but hearsay except that is spoken to you in your mind when you ponder over. What you feel through your skin is tangible and the wind is part of it. All tangible is seen and all that in intangible is unseen is what we should imbibe. this is wisdom, ie. total belief in the "intangible unseen". Our knowledge is audo-visual which involves tangibility to the eyes and ears in "functional sense".
What is seeing? Seeing the shape and size of an object. Matereal of an object does not enter our eyes but the image of it. Only the source of the image we can feel but not the image as it enters our pupils When we see the intangible image is in our mind not the object. And we also get the truth that only the image of the objects triggers the thought process, never do the objects. This divulges the fact that the eyes have no value over the inner sensibilities. Like wise, the sensibilities of hearing shall become alive when you hear from a tangible source. Smell and taste like wise.
Why did you say all of the above?
Now the biggest visible source is the skin. The skin is the only source that reflects our sensitivity and sensibility as the reality descends upon our hear as revelation. Even the hairs on the skin stand straight as the truth descend upon us. The skin feels both ways, ie. it feels the tangible wind from the source external to us too. Feeling through the five special sense of our body is always from a source. Like we feel the smell from a source, say a flower. We feel the hearing from a source; taste like wise from a food source. The wind is from a source like wise; the knowledge is so poor that we have not yet identified, the relatively tangible source in the atmosphere through the literal eyes.
When Allah says "You can never see Me!" it does not mean we can touch Him; smell Him; taste Him. The word "Unseen" is an example, given for the sensible application of mind so as not to include any of the senses of man given to him 'which only feels' the external sources. The Unseen is what you are revealed from inside as Allah speaks; that as you feel the nearness of Him, your fear and worry vanishes from your heart; that you get cured from your diseases and successfully come out of the adversities through the strength of invisible faith and belief unseen and unheard of; that too when all the external, including human sources of help have been exhausted and all doors are closed for you in this world.
Thus the unseen is not image oriented but also feeling oriented if you apply your mind.
We can enter into a separate discussion if you feel you want further information on this.
Yes, please start a thread so no one if confused.
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
I am glad that you are aware that he did not discover America, I hope that you can bring that clear understanding to this debate.
For once you have understood my awareness. I am glad too.
D Peace.
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Peace be upon you Truth,
No, but what you should be asking is why would I need to prove something I have no knowledge of? The God told me not to pursue that, so how would I look trying to prove that is doesn't happen? My argument is that we have no knowledge that these things happen...
Au contraire... are you denying that you have been given knowledge of it through the great reading?
Knowledge of what? Seas splitting? Sticks turning into snakes? Please clarify the question.
That it has an existence? I think you are selectively defining symbolism according to your tastes.
That what has an exsistence? I cannot answer these questins because it is not clear to me what you are asking. Please clarify. Give me clear examples of how I am being selective.
There is no harm in positive and beneficial symbolism that may show us deeper or higher moral lessons. However you must not sever what God has declared to be joined (227). You cannot have the symbolism without the reality. The intangible taste of the cake cannot be enjoyed unless the physical matter is in one's mouth.
You said "you cannot have the symbolism without the reality". I will ask you , don't we have real seas, sticks, snakes, mountains, birds, pigs, etc?
Exactly what "reality" is missing? It is the EVENT that we place these symbolisms on so we can understand what is going on NOW.
The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
In actual fact the symbolism is much deeper than the stories of prophets and messengers.
4111 Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come both of you together, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
Is this reality or symbolism? Do the earth and firmament really speak words like this nowadays?
There is a reality in this verse insofar as the sky and earth have indeed come together and stay together willingly - but there is also a deeper symbolism unrelated to the story of a prophet or messenger. It demonstrates the futility of resisting God - whether one is willing or unwilling all matters are finalised by Him.
Yes, you are correct, which means that it is not just the stories of the prophets that are allegorical, thank you for the clarification.
Now that we have seen yet another instance of metaphor/similitude/allegory/symbolism etc. Will you still reject that the stories are also symbolic?
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Peace,
We are the creatures of the creator. When the God spoke to Moses directly (4164) and when one of us speaks to another, this are two levels of communication and not comparable.The humans have their languages of comunication in the same way for the other creatures (the ants, the birds..). All these communications are real and not symbolic.
The God speaks to us through His messages. The God speaks to all His creation with different level of communication.
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Peace Kyle,
Now that the word can be taken as 'example', and one can take it as literal is dispensed with
One of the reasons for my disagreement is that one part, the literal first level of the reading (events literally happening in history) is then taken to be false...I have an issue with this as per the verses below
1149
Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous.12.102
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots.- In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
2099
Thus do We relate to you (some) of the news of what has gone before; and indeed We have given to you a Reminder from Ourselves.2344
Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not believe!3419
And they said O our Lord! make spaces to be longer between our journeys; and they were unjust to themselves so We made them stories and scattered them with an utter scattering; most surely there are signs in this for every patient, grateful oneNow these verses and their stories spread throughout the reading and the context appear pretty literal to me, a society existed, went astray, got it's just desserts and was made an example...and as per 12111...it is not an invented narration, it is an authentication of what transpired in history to which we were not witnesses. Thus if we have faith in God and the reading, we don't need to verify if moses' stick turned into a snake as we can't, we were not present then ( though we should follow up on the science to try to know how), God tells us that it did and that should be enough, God is enough for a witness yes?
There needs to be a starting point, and this is faith in this reading as being an authentication of what happened before, the truth on all levels, not an invented reading...an invented reading would be something based on false premises...even one slight error would make it inaccurate...we all accept that the quran is truth, then how can it be telling us of events which never took place literally in history as it tells us they did? When so many examples tell us that these ppl lived among us, we see their ruins etc etc?
If it is a LITERAL example, lets say, that when one is being chased(oppressed) by a "firaun" and one reaches a sea, that one should take a stick and touch the sea and should expect the sea to spilt?
When we are learning from an actual event, we learn more than just to expect the same things to happen to us...we take it and try to adjust accordingly...let's say a deeper approach is necessary in most cases...we adjust accordingly to our circumstances...that does not prove your case that the actual example never happened.
EVERYDAY we need people who are capable of crossing the unstable sea by creating a stable path by using the God's philosophy.
Er, sure...thats called learning from an example, we don't expect us to go through the same stuff literally that happened once to moses...but we can learn from his example...it does not prove your point that the actual example did NOT take place.
Nadia
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The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
In actual fact the symbolism is much deeper than the stories of prophets and messengers.
4111 Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come both of you together, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
Is this reality or symbolism? Do the earth and firmament really speak words like this nowadays?
There is a reality in this verse insofar as the sky and earth have indeed come together and stay together willingly - but there is also a deeper symbolism unrelated to the story of a prophet or messenger. It demonstrates the futility of resisting God - whether one is willing or unwilling all matters are finalised by Him.
Yes, you are correct, which means that it is not just the stories of the prophets that are allegorical, thank you for the clarification.
Now that we have seen yet another instance of metaphor/similitude/allegory/symbolism etc. Will you still reject that the stories are also symbolic? D
Peace Kyle,
You are being overly defensive with what I am pointing out. I do not disagree with the symbolic nature of the stories and in fact say that it is the spiritual/moral/symbolic nature of the story that communicates to "those with intelligence" as the reading points out many times.
It's your dodging of the arguments with ambiguity that is problematic. You ended your post with "also symbolic". I don't think anyone would deny that they are ALSO symbolic. People seem to understand that you do not actually hold that they are ALSO symbolic - but that they are ENTIRELY symbolic.
What I was pointing out to you in the post above was that the symbolic rests upon the real. A flag for instance - you can't just say - OK let's have this symbol of our nation that represents blah blah blah and is couloured thus because of blah blah blah... and not have the actual piece of material coloured to represent those things. Another example is the symbolism in George Orwell's "Animal Farm" where animals represent classes of society and individual pigs represent characters in real life. The symbolism is nothing without the link to real situations.
The symbolism therefore cannot be entirely mental or manufactured- similiarly the stories of the Quran have a symbolic representation but they rest upon the truth of reality. What you are disagreeing with is not so much their roots in real objects - but in real historicity.
God surely does not shy away from similitudes but the symbols are constructed in truth just as the underlying reality is - you cannot accuse God of 'making something up' in order to teach us. The truth is on both levels - the historical events are truth - and the symbolism is truth - God's truth pervades all levels.
Nothing is "made up" - even the similitude of the sky and earth joining - is not merely made up to show a scenario of symbolic joining - the underlying reality occurred and is real on both counts.
Your stance takes God the creator, the shaper, the bestower of forms and turns it into God 'the storyteller'. I'll repeat that the truth of God's Quran is pervasive and is present at every level. Falsehood cannot enter it from any side.
You cannot cut off what is joined. The symbolism and the historicity are joined such that the symbolism cannot exist without the reality. I hope I've made this clear now.
Peace.
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Its not a matter of if I WANT TO believe literally, it is not LOGICAL to believe such stories as literal because we have no knowledge of such events happening literally and we are not told CLEARLY that they are literal stories
So you have half heartedly just glanced "The Reading" as if it were written by some tom, dick and harry. Who do you accuse when you say you were not told clearly they were real happenings? Did you care to read a few references sister nadia gave from The Reading? You are yet to read and re-read The Reading with belief first. "Belief" in the unseen and unheard of is the only way for improving one's logic. Unbelievable stories are all real; but if we reject them, the message of it is going to be real soon.
Because so many people DEPEND on this physical illusion
Illusion is self-erasable and self-destructible. You cannot depend on that is the message from the Book. Come out of it.
, and they NEED these events to be true, but when you rise to the hieghts and start to think more abstractly
How can you raise anything above the truth, the reality and actual happening - to the heights of pride as to make the reality into abstractness and invent similitudes? You land up as a result, in confusion as you are now in.
(this is needed to understand ONENESS), you can see CLEARLY the wisdom in this similitudes.
Wisdom is real, lively and practical. Inventing similitude is conjecture, lacking all practical sense, unfit for life.
It is the right side of the brain that brings things together and scientists have "discovered" that pictures and metaphorical stories are recieved by this part of the brain and it is easier to digest and remember.
These brainless scientists/idiots have never ever proved making any of their medical theories/symbolism/research a reality. None of these medical morons ever improved the memories and the digestion of realities in actual life. Digestion of truth and imbibing the reality is not in the brain at all, for brain is such a dunce. It is in the heart where you remember, recite and it is the heart that gives induction into life not the brains as these mental imbeciles called neurophysicians say.
So YES, visualize these events as they are recited, but KNOW what these SIGNS, or we can say SYMBOLS are POINTING TO.
Events are recited and the recited events are enough visual reality and clear signs themselves. What is that then the visualzation you speak about? Severe yourself from the reality and clear signs and enter the falsehood allegories?
What about the Africans sold into slavery? Did they not "cross the sea"? And the Jews from hitler? Weren't they greater atrocities than the present, and the people "crossed the sea"?
Now do you believe the above "crossing the sea" as "visual reality" or you want to cross away from the reality and believe only in the illusion, the symbolism?
I am saying clearly that large bodies of water represnet unstable societies. Musa touched the sea with his stick, that which he leaned on and directed his flock with(the philosophy of Monotheism), and it SPILT into two "MOUNTAINS". Mountains represent stability,
Utter confusion as you try to answer the questions below
If mountains represent stability, why should a stable mountain being split in to two then? Large bodies of water split into two mountains-like by Musa? why? What is the symbolism of Musa? You say as a whole the 'body' of water is unstable or the mountainous society as a whole is unstable. In such a case what does he gain by splitting it? Liquid unstable society is turned into rigid stable two mountains like governments is what you say? If all people are turned into two goverments where are the liquid people then ?
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You can continue your path of waiting for these events to happen again just like others are waiting for thier "messiahs" to return, I am walking the CLEAR PATH of KNOWING, peacefully, cause that is the protection. D
Who said I am waiting for these events to happen again? Again your symbolic conjecture? None can boast his own path is clear guidance.
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So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.Not just snakes. I am waiting for the event when even the mountains can be flown like cotton wool just by a wave of a command from inside the heart of a believer. I do not even need a stick or a finger to move to realize the unbelievable. Mashaallah!
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And you (O, free-minds!) see the mountains, you think them to be solid, and they shall pass away as the passing away of the cloud-- the handiwork of Allah Who has made every thing thoroughly; surely He is Aware of what you do.So do not conjecture. Believe as it is for the reality to happen as per your wish, through a mere command "Be!"
here is idolfree translation
And you see the mountains/governments, you think them to be solid/powerful, and they shall pass away/change of governments as the passing away/changing of the cloud/dissolving-- the handiwork of Allah/symbolism Who has made everything thoroughly/imrpoving in knowing; surely He is Aware of what you do.
The reading is based on the truth, the belief in the unseen, yet to be revealed as wisdom against the knowing process - the debate with the existing knowledge.
The reading is based on the truth in the unseen, yet to be revealed as wisdom The truth of believing is believing in the ultimate of all thoughts, the dreams that spring up in our hearts as inspiration - the wisdom.
Wisdom against the knowing process The knowledge is 'each one's present process of knowing'. Wisdom is the ultimate truth beyond which there is only absolute belief and reap; there is no imagining in vain things according to the level of understanding at any given time.
Finger is the knowledge and glory is the truth; knowledge is similitude whereas the wisdom is the truthand heavenly glory.
Yes, knowledge points you to wisdom, thats correct.
Poor! I paste again what your Boss, Bruce Lee says Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger/knowledge or you will miss all of that heavenly glory".
Dream is surely blind to the eyes but not to the insight. Insight cannot be experimented literally/laboratory means to believe through the eyes. Your point suffers there.
The key word being "inSIGHT". You KNOW it when you SEE it.
"inSIGHT"! wow! "in" is symbolism of INSIGHT!
So is your argument that Musa had a DREAM that he threw a stick and it became active?
No, it is not dream but real! Musa was spoken to, by Allah. HE asked musa to throw the stick/knowledge away when musa replied to Allah about the limited use/knowledge of the stick he had. Beyond the knowledge is the wisdom. So Allah asks musa to throw away the knowledge sothat the wisdom may enter his heart. "First sign of wisdom" to musa is the turning of his stick into terrifying snake as musa submissively threw away his knowledge. Surely, Allah bringsforth living from the dead! Then comes to musa the second sign from allah that removed his fear, as he was asked to catch the moving the deadly snake. Allah showed musa that "He bringsforth the dead from the living".
Later, when musa forgot the instruction given to him by Allah, 'His Wisdom' that he paved for his community to march past the sea by creating a dry path in the sea as firaun chases him and his community Since musa held on to his existing stick/knowledge, deprived him of the wisdom, pushing his back against the sea. Shaitan made musa forget Allah's sign that he should throw away the knowledge to open the sea of wisdom before him. At this point, the command from Allah comes to musa to throw the knowledge into sea by beating the sea with his stick thus making the knowledge drown into the water. There the sea water splits into two making the dry path in between. Thus, the greatest Sign thus far came to musa.
The stick of musa brings us the lesson that we bring alive what we imagine, dream, aspirations by His Leave. So fear Allah and Follow Allah.
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Peace drfazl,
The truth of believing is believing in the ultimate of all thoughts, the dreams that spring up in our hearts as inspiration - the wisdom
Surely, the ultimate wisdom springs from the lord, it's brought to us as signs at different levels. This ultimate wisdom is only reflected in the sayings and acts of those whose hearts are purified from falsehood.
Indeed, it's falsehood that springs from our-selves, not the wisdom. We acquire wisdom from the god, he is the one who teachs.
Both knowledge and wisdom are from the god.
Kownledge is the knowing of "the-how-to... of things?", as how when man learned how to produce special sounds for specific concepts, he has then created a tool (language = compilation of words) to express ideas, be it truthful ideas or complete non-sense. Wisdom is related to the "what to do with such a knowledge?", to do as the god wills or otherwise?
Knowledge allows access to wisdom, but also opens the gate for falsehood.
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Surely, the ultimate wisdom springs from the lord, it's brought to us as signs at different levels. This ultimate wisdom is only reflected in the sayings and acts of those whose hearts are purified from falsehood.
What is expected of you as a dweller in The Reading? Purifying? Or dirtying your hearts?
Both knowledge and wisdom are from the god.
Kownledge is the knowing of "the-how-to... of things?", as how when man learned how to produce special sounds for specific concepts, he has then created a tool (language = compilation of words) to express ideas, be it truthful ideas or complete non-sense. Wisdom is related to the "what to do with such a knowledge?", to do as the god wills or otherwise?
Knowledge allows access to wisdom, but also opens the gate for falsehood.
brother someone,
Just think again and tell me if wisdom is pristine pure and does not have the 'negatives' of knowledge. Wisdom is pure and knowledge is tainted; one does not fit in the other for good and bad can not not mix as they are not the same; wisdom is righteous whereas knowledge is crooked. knowledge involves process towards good or bad, the direction of which you will never know until too late; that you are driven so deep sometimes to the point of no return.
You said Knowledge creates tool to express "complete nonsense!" agree. What a smaeful waste of time and horrible loss of lives in such a process of evolving. Coming to the "truthful ideas" there is a seroious mistake in the expression of the knowledge through language truth is always the truth; can not be truthful ideas. Whereas "truthfully" is unmistakingly the greatest word, the lesser-word "idea" carries the expression of "doubtfulness". There are two ways alone. Wisdom protects you from knowledge. Knowledge leads you astray.
Choice is yours.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
We are the creatures of the creator. When the God spoke to Moses directly (4164) and when one of us speaks to another, this are two levels of communication and not comparable.The humans have their languages of comunication in the same way for the other creatures (the ants, the birds..). All these communications are real and not symbolic.
The God speaks to us through His messages. The God speaks to all His creation with different level of communication.
Yes, I understand that there are different levels of communication, but when we see the statement that the God spoke to Musa, we must realize that the God can and will also speak to us. These symbolic stories are sent as EXAMPLES.
A big error that we must correct is the thinking that the God only spoke to a man named "Musa" many years ago, this reading(quran) clarifies the fact that there was not just one single man who talked to the God and recieved direct intuition.
(2253) Those are the messengers, We preferred some of them over some, from them who spoke/conversed/talked (with) God, and He rose some/part of them steps/stages/degrees...
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Peace be upon you Sister Nadia,
Now that the word can be taken as 'example', and one can take it as literal is dispensed with
One of the reasons for my disagreement is that one part, the literal first level of the reading (events literally happening in history) is then taken to be false...I have an issue with this as per the verses below
Let me say this again clearly first before I start responding. As I have said MANY TIMES, there is no possible way that ANY OF US can know if these events happenned literally or not. I will say that again, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that ANY OF US can know if these events happenned or not. Do you agree to that?
The next step then is to look at the insturction that states that we do NOT pursue that which we have no knowledge of, that which we don't KNOW(cannot prove).
So when we read theses stories, should we pursue the direction that these events DID happen, based on blind faith? Or should we envision these stories in our minds and by those VISIONS (which are easily REMEMBERED) relate the LESSONS to our lives? What I am arguing is that one way is useless and against the instuctions of the God, and the other is Logical and agrees with the God's instructions. Lets continue and look at the verses you gave.
1149
Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous.Yes, stories of the unseen, meaning stories you DID NOT WITNESS. You can only KNOW that which you See/Experience. Do you think that you will eventually SEE these stories Literally? Then how will they remain as "UNSEEN"?
12.102
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots.Yes, here is what I was just explaining, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT.
- In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
Yes, in thier stories is a LESSON! D No, it is not invented because these CONCEPTS that the stories symbolize are very real REALITIES.
2099
Thus do We relate to you (some) of the news of what has gone before; and indeed We have given to you a Reminder from Ourselves.Yes, these stories happen over and over again. They are a reminder so we can apply the LESSONS and do not make the same mistakes.
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Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not believe!Again, all of these events CONTINUE to happen. A story was made from these CONTINUING EVENTS of life to instruct. But the inner proccesses involved were PERSONIFIED to allow better rememberance of the story, therefore the lesson.
3419
And they said O our Lord! make spaces to be longer between our journeys; and they were unjust to themselves so We made them stories and scattered them with an utter scattering; most surely there are signs in this for every patient, grateful oneSame as above.
Now these verses and their stories spread throughout the reading and the context appear pretty literal to me
Sticks into snakes and seas splitting seems literal to you? How so? People riding around in Whales and people magically healing the blind seems literal to you?
a society existed, went astray, got it's just desserts and was made an example...and as per 12111...it is not an invented narration, it is an authentication of what transpired in history to which we were not witnesses.
Yes, I agree, these events ALWAYS happen, and they HAVE been made into a story, but the EVENTS of the story contain SYMBOLISM, clearly.
Thus if we have faith in God and the reading, we don't need to verify if moses' stick turned into a snake as we can't, we were not present then ( though we should follow up on the science to try to know how), God tells us that it did and that should be enough, God is enough for a witness yes?
Yes, the God is certainly enough for a witness. But to leave it at that would be to only follow a portion of the book, when we are to follow the WHOLE(Oneness). The God says not to pursue that which you have no knowledge of. You have no knowledge of those "miracles".
Further, you say the God is enough of a witness, but how do you know this is from the God? How? Did you verify if it was from Him? The christians have a book that they also say you should just believe is from him and don't question anythin in it. Does the God suffice as a witness for that as well? You are using this term as a defense incorrectly. Please be patinet and listen towhat I am saying respected sister.
There needs to be a starting point, and this is faith in this reading as being an authentication of what happened before, the truth on all levels, not an invented reading...an invented reading would be something based on false premises...even one slight error would make it inaccurate...we all accept that the quran is truth
How does one know it is Truth? By blind faith or by logical reason?
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then how can it be telling us of events which never took place literally in history as it tells us they did? When so many examples tell us that these ppl lived among us, we see their ruins etc etc?Yes we do se the ruins of those before us and that contains great wisdom. Yes the SIMILITUDE of these events DID happen and will continue to happen. What we are discussing is the STORY by which the EVENTS that did happen are conveyed to us. They are conveyed to us in a manner that allows us to overlay these stories on ANY situation and be able to see the clear way through. The are not given to us so we might WAIT FOR A SAVIOR to spilt the sea or change sticks to snakes.
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If it is a LITERAL example, lets say, that when one is being chased(oppressed) by a "firaun" and one reaches a sea, that one should take a stick and touch the sea and should expect the sea to spilt?When we are learning from an actual event, we learn more than just to expect the same things to happen to us...we take it and try to adjust accordingly...let's say a deeper approach is necessary in most cases...we adjust accordingly to our circumstances...that does not prove your case that the actual example never happened.
I am not trying to prove something that cannot be proven, why cant you see that the other way around? That you cannot prove that this DID happen LITERALLY? You say a "deeper approach" is necessary in most cases. I ask you to show me a case where the a deeper approach is NOT necessary. You cant do it because these things DO NOT HAPPEN. They were not meant to be taken literally, only symbolic/allegorical/metaphorical, whichever of those words fits.
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EVERYDAY we need people who are capable of crossing the unstable sea by creating a stable path by using the God's philosophy.Er, sure...thats called learning from an example, we don't expect us to go through the same stuff literally that happened once to moses...but we can learn from his example...it does not prove your point that the actual example did NOT take place.
If you have the lesson, why do you even care if it really happenned?
(2051-52) He said "So what (about the) affair/condition (of) the first/beginning generations? He said "Its knowledge (is) at my Lord in a Book , my Lord does not misguide and nor forgets."
So whay are you worrying about if it really happenned? Take the LESSON, and there is no LESSON if youtake the stories as literal. If you take the story of a stick turning into a snake literal, then show me how good of a student you are and make a stick turn into a snake.
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Peace be upon you Truth,
You are being overly defensive with what I am pointing out. I do not disagree with the symbolic nature of the stories and in fact say that it is the spiritual/moral/symbolic nature of the story that communicates to "those with intelligence" as the reading points out many times.
Agreed.
It's your dodging of the arguments with ambiguity that is problematic.
What argument have I dodged? I try to answer every post piece by piece so that it can be seen that I am NOT dodging. In fact, I just accepted your correctin above, how is that dodging?
You ended your post with "also symbolic". I don't think anyone would deny that they are ALSO symbolic.
Some say they agree to that with the lips, but thats as far as it goes because they are really still waiting to have these literal events proven. The God says that some say they have faith while they really do not, they try to decieve the God and those who have faith, but only decieve thier minds.
People seem to understand that you do not actually hold that they are ALSO symbolic - but that they are ENTIRELY symbolic.
I am not sure what you just said, please elaborate.
What I was pointing out to you in the post above was that the symbolic rests upon the real. A flag for instance - you can't just say - OK let's have this symbol of our nation that represents blah blah blah and is couloured thus because of blah blah blah... and not have the actual piece of material coloured to represent those things. Another example is the symbolism in George Orwell's "Animal Farm" where animals represent classes of society and individual pigs represent characters in real life. The symbolism is nothing without the link to real situations.
Agreed, so do you think the REAL SITUATION was that a man stood at the side of a Sea and touched it with a stick and it split in two mountain sized portions? The Symbolisms are based on the real SYMBOLS. There are mountains, seas, sticks, snakes, all of these things are real and thier NATURE should be studied so we can better understand the SYMBOLIC STORIES. But please answer the above question, do you think the REAL SITUATION was that a man stood at the side of a Sea and touched it with a stick and it split in two mountain sized portions?
The symbolism therefore cannot be entirely mental or manufactured- similiarly the stories of the Quran have a symbolic representation but they rest upon the truth of reality. What you are disagreeing with is not so much their roots in real objects - but in real historicity.
God surely does not shy away from similitudes but the symbols are constructed in truth just as the underlying reality is - you cannot accuse God of 'making something up' in order to teach us.
No, I am not accusing the God of making something up, REAL EVENTS were made into Symbolic Stories so that they can be applied to all situations. These stories are not just talking about events, but PROCCESSES that go on in creation. It is easier for a human to remember a story about "angels" and devils than to sit in a class and learn about thoughts and the Super Ego, and the ID and al kinds of scientific statements, do you see what I am getting at?
The truth is on both levels - the historical events are truth - and the symbolism is truth - God's truth pervades all levels.
So you are saying that there once was a man who threw a stick and it turned into a snake?
Nothing is "made up" - even the similitude of the sky and earth joining - is not merely made up to show a scenario of symbolic joining - the underlying reality occurred and is real on both counts.
No , not made up, but a reality made symbolic. The "reality" was not that the God sat down and had a conversation with the Skies, was it? So why would you think the reality of Musa's story was that he turned a stick into a snake?
Your stance takes God the creator, the shaper, the bestower of forms and turns it into God 'the storyteller'.
Yes, the stories come from the God. Scientists will confirm that Stories go to the right side of the brain because they form VISIONS in the mind. This is why the Egyptians used Heiroglyhics(Divine writings). I was taught when I was young that the best way to REMEMBER different things was to VISUALIZE all of these things in on picture in my mind. The God is the TEACHER.
I'll repeat that the truth of God's Quran is pervasive and is present at every level. Falsehood cannot enter it from any side.
Agreed.
You cannot cut off what is joined. The symbolism and the historicity are joined such that the symbolism cannot exist without the reality. I hope I've made this clear now.
Very clear as it already was. I hope I have clarified my position. I think the more we discuss the LESSONS, the more clear this will become.
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Peace be upon you Mr Fazl,
So you have half heartedly just glanced "The Reading" as if it were written by some tom, dick and harry.
Nonsense.
skipped parts that I do not wish to keep repeating
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It is the right side of the brain that brings things together and scientists have "discovered" that pictures and metaphorical stories are recieved by this part of the brain and it is easier to digest and remember.These brainless scientists/idiots have never ever proved making any of their medical theories/symbolism/research a reality. None of these medical morons ever improved the memories and the digestion of realities in actual life. Digestion of truth and imbibing the reality is not in the brain at all, for brain is such a dunce. It is in the heart where you remember, recite and it is the heart that gives induction into life not the brains as these mental imbeciles called neurophysicians say.
The medical profession verifies many facts because they are GREAT at EXTERNAL thinking, but they cannot apply them because they are not WHOLISTIC. They love to tear apart and undeerstand, but not put back together. Thus you have to go to a SEPERATE doctor for each part of your body. A better way to say it is they have KNOWELDGE, but no WISDOM, or at leats they are only sharing the wisdom with a few who use it for EVIL.
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So YES, visualize these events as they are recited, but KNOW what these SIGNS, or we can say SYMBOLS are POINTING TO.Events are recited and the recited events are enough visual reality and clear signs themselves. What is that then the visualzation you speak about? Severe yourself from the reality and clear signs and enter the falsehood allegories?
Please say again, I could noy understand you.
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What about the Africans sold into slavery? Did they not "cross the sea"? And the Jews from hitler? Weren't they greater atrocities than the present, and the people "crossed the sea"?Now do you believe the above "crossing the sea" as "visual reality" or you want to cross away from the reality and believe only in the illusion, the symbolism?
I have faith that it was a true event. I do not KNOW because I did not SEE it, but I have FAITH that it happened because hese things CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. Sudan would be an example. Are you saying that the AFricans had a leader who went to a PHYSICAL SEA and spit it into two mountains? Is that what you are saying? How about the Jews? Did someone come to Hitler and throw a stick and make it turn into a snake literally? Please tell me.
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I am saying clearly that large bodies of water represnet unstable societies. Musa touched the sea with his stick, that which he leaned on and directed his flock with(the philosophy of Monotheism), and it SPILT into two "MOUNTAINS". Mountains represent stability,Utter confusion as you try to answer the questions below
I have not answered them yet, but you have already stated "utter confusion". You are blind before you even start to read. Ihope you wil have patience as you read my responses.
If mountains represent stability, why should a stable mountain being split in to two then?
The mountain was not split in two, the SEA was split in two, please re read the story.
Large bodies of water split into two mountains-like by Musa? why?
Because large bodies of water represnt unstableness. Go to the beach and walk into the water, see how the waves push you around and beat you on your back and sides. Observe as you fall in the water and stand up spitting sea water out of your mouth. It is UNSTABLE. You you go back to dry land and regain your stability. So if you want to cross the sea, you must create a DRY PATH (stability) with which to cross through. Think of the story of Noah, didn't he build a stable boat so he could ride out he flood(large water)? Think of Jonah, wasnt he riding in the large fish in the large body of water, and after he turned to the God , was put on DRY LAND(stability)? Is this clear? Do you see how the God confirms these symbolisms so they cannot just be arbitrary? There is no confusion on my part.
What is the symbolism of Musa?
You can think of Musa as the CONSCIOUSNESS that comes to understand the laws and leads its thoughts (children of Isreal) on a journey through this unstable environment. But als realize that one must stay VIGILANT with thier thoughts, because as soon as consciousness leaves the thoughts, they go back to thier old ways. The above explanation of Musa I do not claim to be 100% on point,but this gives you an idea of my understanding.
You say as a whole the 'body' of water is unstable or the mountainous society as a whole is unstable
No, I did not say that, I said large bodies of water represent unstableness, therefore unstable society is understood from it. And mountains represent that which is MEANT TO stabilize. I say MEANT TO, because we don't have an example of a government that is stabilizing the people as it should. Please continue.
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In such a case what does he gain by splitting it?I explained above, I hope you see your error.
Liquid unstable society is turned into rigid stable two mountains like governments is what you say? If all people are turned into two goverments where are the liquid people then ?
Are you purposely not trying to see what I am sayinig? Liquid people? Where did you get that?
Understanding coes from OBSERVATION OF THE PAIRS. To understand temperature you have to understand hot and cold. Do we learn lessons from the battle of one government against the other? Do we not get many lessons from the battle of U.S. and Iraq? I hope that you can make the connections. I hope that you are making your way through all of this,not getting drowned by either side.
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Peace bro Kyle,
Let me say this again clearly first before I start responding. As I have said MANY TIMES, there is no possible way that ANY OF US can know if these events happenned literally or not. I will say that again, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that ANY OF US can know if these events happenned or not. Do you agree to that?
And as i've said many times before, why insist they never did and it's purely symbolic? God tells us they happened, God is enough for a witness...have faith in the reading...
The next step then is to look at the insturction that states that we do NOT pursue that which we have no knowledge of, that which we don't KNOW(cannot prove).
What knowledge have you that ALL of this reading is from God? Have you personally verified all of it? Can it be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt? Brother if it could have been something that is as sure as that, we would have no atheists today...u apparently think faith is another name for seeing something then believing in it...please explain to me your definition of faith... Do we go down the vicious circle of first we must verify the ALL of the reading then we believe in it?? How do you verify that some will go to hell and some to heaven after death?
So when we read theses stories, should we pursue the direction that these events DID happen, based on blind faith?
God tells us they did in no uncertain terms...if you don't want to take God's word for it, it's your choice really.
Or should we envision these stories in our minds and by those VISIONS (which are easily REMEMBERED) relate the LESSONS to our lives? What I am arguing is that one way is useless and against the instuctions of the God, and the other is Logical and agrees with the God's instructions. Lets continue and look at the verses you gave.
How is believing that they actually happened and learning from their example against the instructions of God? Are you telling me that God's instructions tell us not to take His word for a fact?
Yes, stories of the unseen, meaning stories you DID NOT WITNESS. You can only KNOW that which you See/Experience. Do you think that you will eventually SEE these stories Literally? Then how will they remain as "UNSEEN"?
SO? God already tells us that we did not witness them...thats why He is telling us about them so that we hear about them and learn from the actual event...what IS your point here?
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Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots.Yes, here is what I was just explaining, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT.
Er, did you perhaps read on? God is telling us something we did NOT witness...
- In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
Yes, in thier stories is a LESSON! No, it is not invented because these CONCEPTS that the stories symbolize are very real REALITIES.
In their stories is an example...it is not an invented narration, meaning God did not make up these stories without a real example of it actually happening in reality...meaning like in brother truth's post, symbolism does not exist without the reality. Truth on all levels...made up stories are NOT truth on ALL levels.
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Thus do We relate to you (some) of the news of what has gone before; and indeed We have given to you a Reminder from Ourselves.Yes, these stories happen over and over again. They are a reminder so we can apply the LESSONS and do not make the same mistakes.
News of what has gone before? Brother are you not paying attention to the verses? God is telling us about what happened in history before us, so that we learn from their example...no doubt they happen again and again, but these stories are based in reality and real history...
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Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not believe!Again, all of these events CONTINUE to happen. A story was made from these CONTINUING EVENTS of life to instruct. But the inner proccesses involved were PERSONIFIED to allow better rememberance of the story, therefore the lesson.
Eh? Mystical man on the mountain talk? It's a simple verse...God made these people examples...
Sticks into snakes and seas splitting seems literal to you? How so? People riding around in Whales and people magically healing the blind seems literal to you?
Sure, whatever is written in God's book apparently is what it is....far be it from me to twist it around to suit what i think is common sense today or what i think it says instead of what it ACTUALLY says...and risk overlooking the fundamental truth on ALL levels.
Yes, I agree, these events ALWAYS happen, and they HAVE been made into a story, but the EVENTS of the story contain SYMBOLISM, clearly.
Indeed? Have i ever and i mean ever disagreed with the notion that they contain symbolism? There is no reason why the actual event did not take place in history.
Yes, the God is certainly enough for a witness. But to leave it at that would be to only follow a portion of the book, when we are to follow the WHOLE(Oneness). The God says not to pursue that which you have no knowledge of. You have no knowledge of those "miracles".
Excuse me? Only a portion of the book? Yes we are to follow the whole...meaning truth on ALL levels indeed...I have knowledge of these SIGNS...God told us in the reading.
Further, you say the God is enough of a witness, but how do you know this is from the God? How? Did you verify if it was from Him? The christians have a book that they also say you should just believe is from him and don't question anythin in it. Does the God suffice as a witness for that as well? You are using this term as a defense incorrectly. Please be patinet and listen towhat I am saying respected sister.
I call it faith respected brother, taking Gods word as truth. The reading is indeed truth. Truth on ALL levels...many times we have unearthed evidence that such and such community indeed got vanquished off the face of the earth in just a manner as was described in the reading...Just because it was discovered makes it literal and all the others which have not been discovered uptil now are symbolic apparently.....
How does one know it is Truth? By blind faith or by logical reason?
Either one of these options are not your relative 'symbolism' i'm sorry to say... )
They are conveyed to us in a manner that allows us to overlay these stories on ANY situation and be able to see the clear way through. The are not given to us so we might WAIT FOR A SAVIOR to spilt the sea or change sticks to snakes.
You are disputing that they ever took place literally in history...
That you cannot prove that this DID happen LITERALLY?
What are you on about? We have evidence of these cities that have been discovered...
You cant do it because these things DO NOT HAPPEN.
God tells us they did repeatedly.
They were not meant to be taken literally, only symbolic/allegorical/metaphorical, whichever of those words fits.
That's your opinion, it's not what the reading says....
If you have the lesson, why do you even care if it really happenned?
Look, i'm not the one who has an issue with it actually happening...that would be you! roll
So whay are you worrying about if it really happenned? Take the LESSON, and there is no LESSON if youtake the stories as literal.
Once again bro, i don't have an issue with it happening, i see it as truth on ALL levels and take the literal along with the symbolic...I don't insist on one way is the only right way.
If you take the story of a stick turning into a snake literal, then show me how good of a student you are and make a stick turn into a snake.
Brother, i take it as actually happening in history to one prophet of God called Moses...I ain't that person in that particular time in history thus what i must do is take the example and adjust it according to my relative circumstances as should any sane rational person...not to insist that God made up this story and it never really actually literally happened....
Nadia
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Peace be upon you Mr Fazl,
idolfree1 wrote
You can continue your path of waiting for these events to happen again just like others are waiting for thier "messiahs" to return, I am walking the CLEAR PATH of KNOWING, peacefully, cause that is the protection.Who said I am waiting for these events to happen again? Again your symbolic conjecture? None can boast his own path is clear guidance.
(1210 Say "This (is) my path I call to The God, on (an) evidence/clear sightedness, me and who followed me, and glory (to) The God, and I am not from the sharers/takers of partners (with God)."
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So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.Not just snakes. I am waiting for the event when even the mountains can be flown like cotton wool just by a wave of a command from inside the heart of a believer. I do not even need a stick or a finger to move to realize the unbelievable. Mashaallah!
Hmmmm, so it is not just snakes you are waiting for but mountains to be flown like cotton? But above you JUST SAID "Who said I am waiting for these events to happen again? Again your symbolic conjecture?"
Nope not conjecture, your actual words.
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And you (O, free-minds!) see the mountains, you think them to be solid, and they shall pass away as the passing away of the cloud-- the handiwork of Allah Who has made every thing thoroughly; surely He is Aware of what you do.The God is addressing Free -Minds forum? Not the humanity?
So do not conjecture. Believe as it is for the reality to happen as per your wish, through a mere command "Be!"
here is idolfree translation
My translation? Lets see what you have.
And you see the mountains/governments, you think them to be solid/powerful, and they shall pass away/change of governments as the passing away/changing of the cloud/dissolving-- the handiwork of Allah/symbolism Who has made everything thoroughly/imrpoving in knowing; surely He is Aware of what you do.
Please refrain from making statements/translations in my name.
I am sure you can see how the God is the true GOVERNMENT, not some president and senate, etc.
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So is your argument that Musa had a DREAM that he threw a stick and it became active?No, it is not dream but real! Musa was spoken to, by Allah. HE asked musa to throw the stick/knowledge away when musa replied to Allah about the limited use/knowledge of the stick he had. Beyond the knowledge is the wisdom. So Allah asks musa to throw away the knowledge sothat the wisdom may enter his heart. "First sign of wisdom" to musa is the turning of his stick into terrifying snake as musa submissively threw away his knowledge. Surely, Allah bringsforth living from the dead! Then comes to musa the second sign from allah that removed his fear, as he was asked to catch the moving the deadly snake. Allah showed musa that "He bringsforth the dead from the living".
Later, when musa forgot the instruction given to him by Allah, 'His Wisdom' that he paved for his community to march past the sea by creating a dry path in the sea as firaun chases him and his community Since musa held on to his existing stick/knowledge, deprived him of the wisdom, pushing his back against the sea. Shaitan made musa forget Allah's sign that he should throw away the knowledge to open the sea of wisdom before him. At this point, the command from Allah comes to musa to throw the knowledge into sea by beating the sea with his stick thus making the knowledge drown into the water. There the sea water splits into two making the dry path in between. Thus, the greatest Sign thus far came to musa.
The stick of musa brings us the lesson that we bring alive what we imagine, dream, aspirations by His Leave. So fear Allah and Follow Allah.
Yes, you are getting close, but you are trying to fit your theory of "No knowledge" into the story. Let me give it a try,
Musa removed his shoes (not a physical journey) and spoke to the God. The God told him to throw his staff, thatwhich represented his old philosophy because it was STIFF /RIGID/NOT BENDING (rock heart). When Musa THREW his old phiosophy, the God made it active (not rigid/formable/active not passive). Once Musa controlling capability was purified (hand became white/very clean), he was able to pick up the NEW PHILOSOPHY and guide the children of israel (his own thoughts and the thoughts of his people). When they got to the Sea, Musa was not told to THROW this NEW PHILOSOPHY AWAY. NO! Why would the God correct it for him then tell him to do away with it? Do you see where you philosophy of no knowledge leads you? Please understand that THINKING is not KNOWING(Knowledge). Yes, if it was mere thinking that Musa had, I would agree with you,but Musa had KNOWLEDGE. So again, he was not told to THROW this Knowledge/new active philosophy in the water to be drowned, he was told
(2663) So We inspired to Musa that "SEPERATE( idrib) with your stick the sea/large body of water ." So it split open, so each part was as the the great huge mountain.
Do you see how well that fits brother Fazl? Why would the God tell you to seek increase in Knowledge(Ilm) just for you to throw it away? Knowledge and THINKING is not the same.
If you disagree, then it is your turn to throw wink
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Peace be upon you respected sister Nadia,
I will try to cut out my statement as these posts are getting long D
And as i've said many times before, why insist they never did and it's purely symbolic? God tells us they happened, God is enough for a witness...have faith in the reading...
I do not INSIST it never happenned, please understand that, but it SOUNDS like it never happenned literally, and since the God told US ALL not to pursue that which we have no knowledge of, why should we pursue it? Do you have knowledge that sticks turn into snakes? Yes or no.
You are saying "just have faith in the reading", what do the christians say"just have faith that Jesus died for your sins". Please tell me the difference.
What knowledge have you that ALL of this reading is from God? Have you personally verified all of it? Can it be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt?
I have faith based on the information that i sin the reading. You are right, I am still verifying it. There are still parts I dont understand. So at this point I have FAITH it is from the God based on EVIDENCE, but I do not KNOW, not yet anyway. Faith is based on evidence, not just becausae someone brings you a message and says "believe".
Brother if it could have been something that is as sure as that, we would have no atheists today...u apparently think faith is another name for seeing something then believing in it...please explain to me your definition of faith
I just did above D
... Do we go down the vicious circle of first we must verify the ALL of the reading then we believe in it?? How do you verify that some will go to hell and some to heaven after death?
We verify piece by piece, that is why we recieve inspiration in STAGES.
God tells us they did in no uncertain terms...if you don't want to take God's word for it, it's your choice really.
Thank you.
How is believing that they actually happened and learning from their example against the instructions of God? Are you telling me that God's instructions tell us not to take His word for a fact?
I am telling you that unless you verify information, you don't even know its from the God. Didn't the God say to study for contradictions?
SO? God already tells us that we did not witness them...thats why He is telling us about them so that we hear about them and learn from the actual event...what IS your point here?
The point is that you only KNOW that which you SEE/EXPERIENCE. The God is saying you did not SEE the stories that He gave you , so don't make them literal, especially when the God tells you that He does not shy from allegory and that the stories are SYMBOLIC.
Yes, here is what I was just explaining, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT.
Er, did you perhaps read on? God is telling us something we did NOT witness...
Please be patient sister, it is right underneath your nose. Please do not go home and think "that Kyle is crazy", Go home and reflect on my argument. Please.
Yes, in thier stories is a LESSON! No, it is not invented because these CONCEPTS that the stories symbolize are very real REALITIES.
Yes, very real realities, like the enslavement of Africans and Jews, and the mismanagement of funds like the people of Shuiab, etc. Not realities of REAL STICKS turning into REAL SNAKES. Do you not see that ONE POSITION you can verify and one you cant? You can SEE/EXPERIENCE ne position and you cannot SEE/EXPERIENCE the other, do you see this?
In their stories is an example...it is not an invented narration, meaning God did not make up these stories without a real example of it actually happening in reality...meaning like in brother truth's post, symbolism does not exist without the reality. Truth on all levels...made up stories are NOT truth on ALL levels.
And I agree, sticks, seas, snakes, all these objects are real. Enslavement of people, mismanagement of resources, people taking a stand on truth, all these are real. But sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY is not real.
News of what has gone before? Brother are you not paying attention to the verses?
Yes, sister, I am. The news of what has gone before, and will continue to happen is that people HAVE and DO enslave others, people HAVE and DO mismanage resources, people HAVE and DO take a righteous stand. Yes, they ARE stories of what has gone before! D Just not "miracles" of what has gone before. Do you see the difference?
God is telling us about what happened in history before us, so that we learn from their example...no doubt they happen again and again, but these stories are based in reality and real history...
You have no knowledge of those LITERAL events, do not pursue that course.
Sure, whatever is written in God's book apparently is what it is....far be it from me to twist it around to suit what i think is common sense today or what i think it says instead of what it ACTUALLY says...and risk overlooking the fundamental truth on ALL levels.
Respected. You wait for the stick to turn into a snake. Be sure your gandparents never saw such a thing in thier lives. Nor thier grandparents.
I call it faith respected brother, taking Gods word as truth. The reading is indeed truth. Truth on ALL levels...many times we have unearthed evidence that such and such community indeed got vanquished off the face of the earth in just a manner as was described in the reading...Just because it was discovered makes it literal and all the others which have not been discovered uptil now are symbolic apparently.....
You mean to say that because you unearthed a previous civilization that this means that there was a man in that civilizatin that coud split seas? What acheological evidence have you unearhted that is being kept from the rest of us? Please share this convincing evidence.
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How does one know it is Truth? By blind faith or by logical reason?Either one of these options are not your relative 'symbolism' i'm sorry to say...
That is your opinion, I am sorry you see it that way sister.
You are disputing that they ever took place literally in history...
I am disputing that it does not make sense to follow that path that it DID literally take place.
If millions of years from now one unearthed Mecca and found the black stone called Kabba, should they believe that all of the hadiths of Buckari were real? Should they just believe?
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That you cannot prove that this DID happen LITERALLY?What are you on about? We have evidence of these cities that have been discovered...
Please elaborate on this evidence. Lets take one story and I want you to explain the archeological evidence to me and what it means to you.
Once again bro, i don't have an issue with it happening, i see it as truth on ALL levels and take the literal along with the symbolic...I don't insist on one way is the only right way.
These means that you are afriad to throw YOUR stick and let the God correct your position. You are straddling the fence. I have been there and this is no disrespect.
Brother, i take it as actually happening in history to one prophet of God called Moses...I ain't that person in that particular time in history thus what i must do is take the example and adjust it according to my relative circumstances as should any sane rational person...not to insist that God made up this story and it never really actually literally happened....
Does the God change his way of doing things? Why did the children of Isreal get help from a large sea to drown its oppressors, but the Africans and Jews had to find another way "through the sea"? Is that the SAME or DIFFERENT? Please answer.