Social Research and the Implications of Generated Data; Beards and Scarfs
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I just conclude that on the long term traditionalism as we know it, will be completely extinct. I don't see any alternative, or scientifically put, data does not show significant relevant factors which leads to another conclusion. It is possible that traditionalism as we know it (which is again, a heterogeneous term), will transform into something else like the transformation we have seen in Catholicism. But as you know, for dogma which claims absolute truth, this is a death sentence. As for my remark on Catholicism, I dont think this will apply for sunnism, cause the structure of sunni theology is essentially different).
"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed.
As a result of being long accustomed to their religious denomination, as days passed and it became a habit. Because they were deluded by the beards of the goats, who sit in ranks in their councils, straining their throats in recounting lies, senseless myths and "so-and-so told us in the name of so-and-so?
Eventually there will be a universal disaster and they would perish in the mutual hostilities and fighting. Indeed, many people have perished in this way, as we can see."
-- Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi, 865-925 AD
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605454.0
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Hi peepz!
At our university we have learned that if you want to research a certain subject, you will have to pin-point this in carefully formulated main-, and subquestions. After that, by using a scientific framework (a tested theory of some kind, to help to place the data into understandable and verifiable form), you will continue the research cycle to lead your work to a conclusion.
One of the principles herein is that if you have a presumption, u could create a hypothesis which you will subject to the test of your research. During your research, the hypothesis will almost certain be subject to transformation due to new insights, new relevant data, etc.
What we have learned, is that a hypothesis should be reduced to a form as simple as possible, to reduce all kind of less relevant factors and get to the core of the hypothesis (this principle is called Ockham's razor). This of coarse, doesn't guarantee clarity or a superior explanation above others, but it does help scientists to make their research more efficient.
In the case of the social phenomena of beards and scarfs, I hypothesize that these can be used fairly well to predict the degree of adherence to sunni doctrine.
Again, I do not state that its a clear cut demarcation which seperates sunni believers from non-sunnis, it is perfectly demonstrable that this is nonsense; many sincerely believing sunnis (and shia for that matter) do not wear beards or in lesser degree among the women, headscarfs, some even never will.
But it does show, in my hypothesis, the presence of an inclination or susceptibility to a well definable social preference (with cultural, religious, psychological and other implications, which can all be treated in research, one by one).
I think, here comes, that most muslims IN THE WORLD, show a clear inclination and susceptibility towards modernism, secularism and eventually rationalism.
I dont say most muslims are sola-scriptural muslims, but what I do say and which has major implications, is that most muslims are inclined to and susceptible towards the sola-scriptura methodology.
It is not logical to assume that a traditionalist (umbrella term; could be any of the madhhabs or sufi orders or pseudo-political sects, or whatever), does with great content accept the bulk of liberal social principles, most aspects of modern science and modern life, and still uphold 'classical theology'.
Of coarse, as is an absolute necessity in social research, social behavior can be divided in different classifications, think about a girl with a headscarf who doesnt accept the sunna, or a non-bearded man who is a vehement extremist. But these 'anomalities', end up in sections which naturally represent exceptions (except in countries where social factors make it difficult to prove this, like places where the scarf is obligatory, or the beard forbidden, but again, these are exceptions and should be the subject of seperate research).
I just conclude that on the long term traditionalism as we know it, will be completely extinct. I don't see any alternative, or scientifically put, data does not show significant relevant factors which leads to another conclusion. It is possible that traditionalism as we know it (which is again, a heterogeneous term), will transform into something else like the transformation we have seen in Catholicism. But as you know, for dogma which claims absolute truth, this is a death sentence. As for my remark on Catholicism, I dont think this will apply for sunnism, cause the structure of sunni theology is essentially different).
It is up to us muslims, to decide what to replace it with.
What are ur thoughts?
Take care
elektro
Havew you ever heard of wishful thinking? Seems that even in science wishful thinking works out scientifically. If you make enough wars to Muslims, yes they will eventually get angry.
Salaam, very scientific salaam
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"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed.
As a result of being long accustomed to their religious denomination, as days passed and it became a habit. Because they were deluded by the beards of the goats, who sit in ranks in their councils, straining their throats in recounting lies, senseless myths and "so-and-so told us in the name of so-and-so?
Eventually there will be a universal disaster and they would perish in the mutual hostilities and fighting. Indeed, many people have perished in this way, as we can see."
-- Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi, 865-925 AD
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605454.0
Hi Jafar!
A very interesting quote, were it not that the person of Zakariya al Razi is subject to lots of controversy. We can't be sure this is from him.
Greetings
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Havew you ever heard of wishful thinking? Seems that even in science wishful thinking works out scientifically. If you make enough wars to Muslims, yes they will eventually get angry.
Salaam, very scientific salaam
Hahaha nice one
Its perfectly 'normal' (by which I mean, logical) for u to approach scientific methodology with cynicism (provided the factors your way of thinking is subject to are responsible for your reaction).
Science is very careful to eliminate 'wishful thinking' (which falls under bias), while conducting research or forming hypotheses. Reasoning which shows bias, does not pass p2p review and will never be publicized by an academic institution, which leaves the writer who wasted his time choose what to do with all his paper, throw it in the stove, or the cooking fire,use it as wallpaper or in the toilet.
Greetz
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Hi Jafar!
A very interesting quote, were it not that the person of Zakariya al Razi is subject to lots of controversy. We can't be sure this is from him.
Greetings
Regardless, it's irrelevant anyway who actually said those thing..
Because what's being said perfectly make sense...
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Regardless, it's irrelevant anyway who actually said those thing..
Because what's being said perfectly make sense...
Actually, its very relevant if we do not only want to analyze the words, but also its impact on islamic philosophical and cultural discourse.
Very very very very very very relevant.
That it makes sense or not (its content), is irrelevant. 'Sense' in this specific case (commenting on social reality) is a relativistic judgement and may not be valid in other circumstances.
It only becomes relevant when it becomes subject to research and its impact can be measured. Standing alone, its not more than a statement.
A message can be clothed in a medium and it can make sense, but it only becomes relevant when it becomes utilized.
A wise word which isn't utilized (correctly), is like gold deep under the ground.
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As can be plainly seen in today's middle east, they're very good at starting war themselves among themselves..
Certainly they don't need help for starting a war..Salam / Peace
This principle is universal and is valid for all organisms. Its a Darwinian principle. Attack, and u will very likely get a violent reaction cause the organism is trying to keep up his survival chances which it feels or thinks have been compromised.
When the reaction is not violent, it again is explainable in Darwinian terms. Diverting danger in stead of attacking, is because of the lack of means to react in a similar way.
There are always exceptions of coarse, perhaps even countless, but the above mentioned ones are the norm, and no phenomenon can escape the laws of nature.
There where human social organization is subject to instability, the chance for (violent) conflict to emerge is higher. Logics.
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Actually, its very relevant if we do not only want to analyze the words, but also its impact on islamic philosophical and cultural discourse.
See the link that i've given above if you want to discuss Razi.. we can discuss about him on that thread.
And there's no such thing as 'islamic philosophical and cultural discourse', the more appropriate terms will be "MIDDLE EAST philosophical and cultural discourse".
Sectarianism, Tribalism has a very loong history in middle east / semitic culture.. it's comparable only with the Balkans..
"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers"
Such attitude also apparent within "Street Gangs" in many urban cities worldwide.
When there's a vacuum in social justice performed by a 'neutral party' (e.g. The Police), people will look for protection from their own group, the group can be formed based on the similarity of kin-ship, religion, ethnicity or in case of 'street gangs' the location of home / street / district.The 'war' between street gangs usually started because a member of a street gang being harassed / mistreated by the member of another street gang. And every other member of each gang are compelled to fight for the honor of their gang, regardless who is right or wrong in the case. They don't seek justice they seek 'retaliation' to defend the honor of their gang.
Such attitude is actually not recommended in the Quran.
Citing the story of "Moses killing an egyptian because the egyptian was fighting with somebody from his own people" (2815-20)If the attitude continues it's not a rocket science to predict that those gangs will eventually annihilate each others..
For those who are not involved in such insanity, this might be seen as a 'good riddance'..
Salam / Peace
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The use of the terms 'islamic philosophical and cultural discourse' is perfectly sound and usable.
It simply points out to philosophy and culture, which takes a plethora of concepts of 'islam' as a dominant source of inspiration.
The term 'middle east' is absolutely useless, because of
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Middle East is a biased term, based upon European geographical perception, and this perception is loaded with its own corpus of concepts and ideas.
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Culture and philosophy are never related to geography, but to human societies. Humans can travel, so do ideas, cultures and thoughts. Or do you count Europe and South America as Middle Eastern because of the dominance of christianity in those areas? It is not geography which influences humans, its humans who determine their view of the outside world.
I trust you dont mix up geography with climate.
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The use of the terms 'islamic philosophical and cultural discourse' is perfectly sound and usable.
It simply points out to philosophy and culture, which takes a plethora of concepts of 'islam' as a dominant source of inspiration.
I think you should rethink your own perception of the word islam.
islam is an attitude/character it lies in the same domain as "honest"...
islam (originally) not a social identity or a name given to the group of people.Thus you think that "honest philosophical and cultural discourse" is perfectly sound???
honest does not philosophy or invented a specific culture.. people does..
When a group of people named their own group / gang as "Honest", only then the word honest has been distorted into a name which refer to a specific group of people.
And only then "Honest philosophical and cultural discourse" will make sense, which means THE philosophy and culture OF a group of people who labeled themselves as "Honest".Although "The Honest" is not truly honest, they perform lies and deceit yet they still refer to themselves as "Honest". And other people who hates them will refer to them as "Those Honest bastards!".
Soon afterward people will forget the true meaning of the word 'honest'...Which is the situation at the moment with the word "islam".
Salam / Peace
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Salaam,
What is this thread really about?
Research about beards and the headscarf?Anyway muslim-majority countries are not only in Middle East but outside ME too such as Albania, Kosovo, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan etc. So research in Middle East is not really accurate.
Women wear hijab simply because they BELIEVE that it is compulsory.
When I was still a Sunni at the age of 14 years old, I was confused whether to wear the head-barrier or not because I was scared of being tortured in hell but at the same time I did not like it at all.
When I was 14, I thought my death was just around the corner so I decided to wear it.
But I took it off 1 months after that
In national schools in this country I live, the head-towel is mandatory for Muslim female students.As far as I know, according to extremists 'Muslims' such as the Taliban monsters, they belittled men who don't have beards.
Men do not receive pressure from their fellow Muslim men for not having beards but women receive pressure from their fellow Muslim women for not wearing headscarves.In some semi-religious countries, there are hijab fashion (they call it Muslima fashion). The models wear heavy make-ups and their dresses including the headscarves are highly attractive and ORNAMENTED.
They are considered 'Muslima' models as long as they are veiling, no matter how attractive they dress.
nope''Hijab is the sign of modesty''
''Hijab is more than a piece of cloth on a woman's head''
"Hijab can prevent rape"
"Hijabi women are more pious"
BS
http//woodturtle.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/sexy_burqa.jpg?w=584 -
Salam Jafar
U have changed this into a game of semantics, it doesnt mean anything anymore
Semantic is important,
Communication is supposed to be an exchange of thought and not words.
When words are interpreted differently then mis-communication shall happens..IF what you meant is actually "philosophical and cultural discourse of the people who claimed/labeled themselves as member of the religion named Islam" then it does make sense. Thus the Greco-Roman philosophy and culture + the Chinese philosophy and culture is out of scope of your predefined boundary.
But certainly it's not "philosophical and cultural discourse which teach people to show or possess islam character"
islam character / muslim / the attitude of being peacefully submit to God's will doesn't have border / boundary of social identity / religion / groups / gangs or place and time.
Salam / Peace
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Salam,
How a child can grow into an adult within 1 year?
How to grow into timber trees from seeds within 24 hours?
It is not the Sunnatullah and there is no target for becoming a Muslim.
Hijab is not the actual requirement in the Qur'an.
The actual requirement in the Qur'an is for human beings to learn, understand, and reform continuously for the better (istiqamah - changes from within ourselves comes first - roots of a tree).
It is the process of understanding that matter, not the end results (comparison - how can one expect to be free from shirk within a short period of time? Impossible!). Therefore it doesn't matter or less relevant to Islam if peoples wear Hijab or not, since it is not the real issue in Islam. In fact, it is the most irrelevant issue to the society (it is personal issue - 5105).
Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah
are the deaf and dumb
who do not use reason <- The importance of reason, and not becoming a robot (blind follower)
(822) (trees without roots - how long can it hold straight on the ground?)Surely Allah is with those who guard (against evil)
and those who do good
(1612O children of Adam!
if there come to you messengers from among you
relating to you My communications
then whoever shall guard (against evil)
and act aright
they shall have no fear
nor shall they grieve
(735)And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy
And this is a confirming Book
in an Arabic tongue
to warn those who have wronged
and as good tidings to the doers of good <- Compare and relates this statement to reality,
(4612) True or false? If false, why?Peace