Salat According to the Quran and a Critical Remark

[cleanfox5982]

Salam

The purpose of this post is simply a slight pinch for the so called academician so he may act less arrogantly , even if i am doubting that he will re-appear in this forum , even if i am sure he is using and will still using comparatively the research and the study of many knowledgeable , humble , and unassuming members in this forum . In his case i'll be ashamed to show up again , only if he change his pseudo or simply change his exaggerated disgusting arrogance

Sounds arrogant? So be it. I find it as arrogant as stating the world is round. It may insult a lot of people, that then is their problem.

Some hint you may re-think about your academic methodology and your professors

Arguments n?1

• Salat exists out of 3 physical postures; qiyam (standing), ruku3 (bowing), sujud (kneeling down) which are implemented 4 times qiyam-ruku-qiyam-sujud.

ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this position

http//imageshack.us/a/img23/3199/b7rk.jpg
The wrong position of ruk3/ there should be a knelling down on the ground not a 90 degree inclination .

3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .

The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr

1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)

http//imageshack.us/a/img138/3908/hpnb.jpg

Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?

3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)

Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?

So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground

http//imageshack.us/a/img692/6801/idp7.jpg
The position of ruk3/ there is a knelling down on the ground

The word ruk3/ contain the key element of this position , which are the two sounds / letters r and k ruk3/

http//imageshack.us/a/img834/9408/ypo7.gif
The root rk / in the action of ruk3/ are indicating the movment of the kneel /al-rkbatyen the single of rkbah / one single knee

This root rk we find it an all action that need the movement of the kneel /al-rkbatyen ex

rakd / to run ...as you are uzing mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to run
rakl / to kick . ... as you are using mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kick something or somebody
ruku3 / to kneel .... as you are using your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kneel down

@Godsubmitter , have patient and do not tolerate arrogance in any case

To be continued

[hafeez_kazi]

Peace Brother Alkitab

Excellent

First time explained in words, drawings and images.

Frankly speaking I do not believe, that in the Quran, all the occurences of the word Ruku and Khirr are pertaining to physical movements and my belief is based on the following verses.

And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall (PHYSICALLY) upon them deaf and blind 2573

I believe that the word FALL is used as a metaphor.

O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277

Is success guaranteed against simply physical bowing and prostrating?

In the above verse I believe that Ruku is Humbleness and Sujud is Submission

O you who have believed, be HUMBLE and SUBMIT (to the will of your Lord) and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277

Your ally is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed. Those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they are those who bow down 555

The bowers are those who establish the prayer and give Zakat. Do you find any logic in this interpretation? Bowing is a part of the Ritual Salat then why a separate command for BOWING? It means that those who do not give Zakat (commonly poor people and women) do not bow down. What Zakat has to do with the physical bowing? All those who bow in prayers do establish the prayers and give Zakat? Really confusing?

I want to know your views. Do you believe what I believe or you have your own definition of these words.

Thanks.

[unknownuser]

Salam

The purpose of this post is simply a slight pinch for the so called academician so he may act less arrogantly , even if i am doubting that he will re-appear in this forum , even if i am sure he is using and will still using comparatively the research and the study of many knowledgeable , humble , and unassuming members in this forum . In his case i'll be ashamed to show up again , only if he change his pseudo or simply change his exaggerated disgusting arrogance

Some hint you may re-think about your academic methodology and your professors

Arguments n?1

ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this position

http//imageshack.us/a/img23/3199/b7rk.jpg
The wrong position of ruk3/ there should be a knelling down on the ground not a 90 degree inclination .

3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .

The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr

1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)

http//imageshack.us/a/img138/3908/hpnb.jpg

Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?

3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)

Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?

So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground

http//imageshack.us/a/img692/6801/idp7.jpg
The position of ruk3/ there is a knelling down on the ground

The word ruk3/ contain the key element of this position , which are the two sounds / letters r and k ruk3/

http//imageshack.us/a/img834/9408/ypo7.gif
The root rk / in the action of ruk3/ are indicating the movment of the kneel /al-rkbatyen the single of rkbah / one single knee

This root rk we find it an all action that need the movement of the kneel /al-rkbatyen ex

rakd / to run ...as you are uzing mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to run
rakl / to kick . ... as you are using mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kick something or somebody
ruku3 / to kneel .... as you are using your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kneel down

@Godsubmitter , have patient and do not tolerate arrogance in any case

To be continued

Very sharp research, thank you brother for providing this.

[cleanfox5982]

Peace Brother Alkitab

Excellent

First time explained in words, drawings and images.

Frankly speaking I do not believe, that in the Quran, all the occurences of the word Ruku and Khirr are pertaining to physical movements and my belief is based on the following verses.

And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall (PHYSICALLY) upon them deaf and blind 2573

I believe that the word FALL is used as a metaphor.

O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277

Is success guaranteed against simply physical bowing and prostrating?

In the above verse I believe that Ruku is Humbleness and Sujud is Submission

O you who have believed, be HUMBLE and SUBMIT (to the will of your Lord) and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277

Your ally is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed. Those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they are those who bow down 555

The bowers are those who establish the prayer and give Zakat. Do you find any logic in this interpretation? Bowing is a part of the Ritual Salat then why a separate command for BOWING? It means that those who do not give Zakat (commonly poor people and women) do not bow down. What Zakat has to do with the physical bowing? All those who bow in prayers do establish the prayers and give Zakat? Really confusing?

I want to know your views. Do you believe what I believe or you have your own definition of these words.

Thanks.

Salam Brother ;

I expressed some of my views while studying this matter in some of my previous post linked below

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604025.

The example you give regarding the verb / action khr / fall down in 2573 is metaphoric , but in 1626 and 3414 and 3824 and 1990 and 7143 and 17107 and 17109 and 1958 and the the verb/ action of khr / fall down the meaning is literal or objective , there is a physical khr / fall down that was taken place .

Yes true too in many verses the verb / action of Sujd / to porstrate , ruk3 / to kneel , 9iym / to stand up , are metaphor , being metaphoric do not mean virtual or abstract , the word when it is used metaphorically it keeps the innate indication .

The innate indication of the Arabic verb / action is unattached and inherent through all its stages of development from the very simple elementary interaction level (1) between the human and the nature through the indication of the natural sounds to the usage on the social rural level (2) , and then finally to the urban level (3)

logically speaking the literal meaning of a word is always preceding the metaphorical usage of the same word , and that the metaphorical meaning certainly always hold the innate indication of the literal physical usage of that word

The key to distinguish when the verb / action is used literally or metaphorically is through 1-the indication of the words and 2-the context of the speech for ex the verb action Sujd / to prostrate

***1- the indication of the words ***

the verb / action in the verses below is literal or physical , because the verb used is "tla , yatlo , tilawah / recite , recitation" , which literally mean to recite , the verb "tla / to recite" is different then the verb " QarA / to read ) the first one is physical level it is about pronouncing the qur'an only , while the verb " QarA / to read ) is about linking the meaning , about getting to the understanding which is a intellectual level

***exemple 1

17107 (Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before it - when it is recited to them / ytla , they fall upon their chins in prostration,)

The prostration / Sujd her is physical because the verb used is with a physical indication recited to them / ytla , notice also the word chins which is a extra physical indication .

***exemple 2

1958 (Those were the ones upon whom Allah bestowed favor from among the prophets of the descendants of Adam and of those We carried with Noah, and of the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Merciful were recited to them / ytla , they fell in prostration and weeping.)
1958

The prostration / Sujd her is physical too because the verb used is with a physical indication recited to them / ytla , notice also the word weeping which is a extra physical a indication .

***exemple 3

3113 (They are not the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing , reciting / yatln the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating ).

Also The prostration / Sujd her is physical because the verb used is with a physical indication reciting / yatln . aloso the mentioning of during periods of the night which is a the physical aspect is a extra indication that The prostration / Sujd is physical too.

Conversely when the word The prostration / Sujd is mentioned with the verb " QarA / to read ) do not indicate a physical action but a intellectual prostration

** exemple 1

8421 (And when the Qur'an is read to them / QrA , they do not prostrate)

** exemple 2

7204 (When the Qur'an is read / QrA , listen to it and pay head that ye may receive Mercy.)

Also The prostration / Sujd her is intellectual because the verb used require intellectual work , so the prostration here is at the level of the heart , they listen to the reading / QiraAh( the linking between the words to form the meaning wanted ) , the verse didn't say they listen to the recitation / tilawah as they are with different meaning .

** exemple 3

7518 (And when We read it / QrAnah, follow thou the reading / QrAnh)

The messenger was asked to follow the reading , if someone follow the reading then he is about prostration intellectually to the one who read it ( in this case the reader al-QarA / is Allah )

***2-the context of the speech ***

** exemple 1

4102 (And when you are among them and lead them in prayer ( salah ) , let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.)

From the context of the speech the prostration / sujd here is physical as it is talking about a war situation when if the believers prostrate down they will miss and lose attention of what is going around , so they verse is asking another party to watch their back .

** exemple 2

4137 (And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah / asjud l allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.)

From the context of the speech the command here about the prostration / sujd is about a physical prostration because the context of the speech do explain that , the verse in the beginning talk about the moon and the sun and forbid prostrating to them , it is clear that the prostration to the sun and the moon is physical because neither the sun or the moon have a intellectual commands or a speech so people will intellectually prostrate to it , so it is evident that some people use to prostrate physically to the sun , we read that also from the story of Abraham / abraheem ( s) apparently they used to prostrate to the sun the moon ..contently specking the command that come after that context is about physical prostration .

http//imageshack.us/a/img10/5467/vlfr.jpg
Babylonian sun-god Shamash

http//imageshack.us/a/img32/1155/703v.jpg
Egypt

To be continued ...

[god1quran1]

ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this position

3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .

The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr

Peace,

This is the only verse you have mentioned where both 'khr' and 'rkian' are mentioned. The active participle 'rkian' further explains how he fell.

The action of someone falling can occur in many ways. A person may fall from a standing position or by bending/bowing. There is no reason to doubt he fell bowing forward. It is certainly possible if one is in a conscious state of mind.

1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)

Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?

This verse only mentions 'khr' and does not provide any information on how the building fell. It just fell. We cannot extract any information regarding 'rukuh' from this verse, unfortunately (

3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)

Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?

Again we cannot make any conclusions regarding the 'rukuh' by simply looking at 'khr' in this verse simply because there is more than one way to fall to the ground. In this case Solomon was in a state of unconsciousness therefore, he will fall differently from someone who is in a conscious state.

So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground

Not necessarily. We cannot arrive at the meaning of 'rukuh' from these verses as verses that ONLY contain 'khr' do not provide us with any information about 'rukuh'.

Man A fell to the ground. --> This does not provide any information about how the man fell.
Man B bowed and fell to the ground --> The sentence provides information on how the man B fell.

It will be illogical to assume from the 2nd sentence than man A also fell to the ground bowing.

[cleanfox5982]

Peace,

Salam ,

I am not trying to convince you because you already did your choice regarding this subject as i read through your post , and that wasn't your purpose anyway.

This is the only verse you have mentioned where both 'khr' and 'rkian' are mentioned.

So what ? Is there any connection between being mentioned once and the understanding i presented ? in fact it is being mentioned exactly only once and in that particular place and event for one major point is to show us that ruk3/ is kneeling down on the ground not 90 ? inclination . This is the only verse on teh whole qur'an if you want to examine , understand how physically is the movement of ruk3/ . I personally choose the understanding provided through this unique mentioning of khr = fall down and ruk3 = kneeling .

The active participle 'rkian' further explains how he fell.

There is nothing such as 'rkian' in that verse 3824 , the word is written like this / raki3 , do you see any n , this n is a tune fabrication added during the Abbasid era http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunation

The action of someone falling can occur in many ways. A person may fall from a standing position or by bending/bowing. There is no reason to doubt he fell bowing forward. It is certainly possible if one is in a conscious state of mind.

Honestly I do not see any valid arguments here man , what your wrote is about a choice not an argument , you choose to understand that the term khr / fall down mean a modest gentle inclination , in your choice its a movement of bowing 90?.

Study the whole qur'an about the usage of the verb khr fall down if you are certain that it mean a gentle inclination not a fall down in the ground then we are simply wasting our time with this discussion, and in my modest opinion it will be about a personal choice not a argumentation justification

This verse only mentions 'khr' and does not provide any information on how the building fell. It just fell. We cannot extract any information regarding 'rukuh' from this verse, unfortunately

If this "unfortunately " you expressed is for me ? then you do not need to as i do not feel so ...i feel )

Anyway , here it is how the building fell , stated in the same verse

1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)

http//imageshack.us/a/img443/4426/hqhh.jpg
This building was distracted from it's foundations , what will happen to the roof ? you sure you cannot extract any link between the roof fall down and Solomon fall down using the same verb khr ?

http//imageshack.us/a/img841/9796/96z4.jpg

A building taken from its foundations , does it look like is inclining in a 90?( bowing ) or fell down on the ground ( kneeling ) ?

Again we cannot make any conclusions regarding the 'rukuh' by simply looking at 'khr' in this verse simply because there is more than one way to fall to the ground. In this case Solomon was in a state of unconsciousness therefore, he will fall differently from someone who is in a conscious state.

For more precision you better use I instead of WE ....so you should write ( I cannot make any conclusions regarding....)

Where did you read in 3824 that Solomon was in unconscious state ?
Look when Moses was in a unconscious state how the qur'an described the fall down ( khr)

7143 (And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me that I may look at You." said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell down in a swoon / khr sa3iQa. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."

Not necessarily. We cannot arrive at the meaning of 'rukuh' from these verses as verses that ONLY contain 'khr' do not provide us with any information about 'rukuh'.

Because you choose to not formulate the connection , What you are saying here is a choice , your choice . I studied and then learned a evident connection between the verb 'khr' fall down and the command of ruk3 in 3824 , i saw the connection convincing then i choose this way of analyzing , and i believe nowhere in the qur'an you can get to a even slight hint regarding the physical way of the movement of ruk3 except the key word which is khr / fall down and the connection with the verse 3824 and 1626

Lets not waste time and energy unless you have a solid studied valid arguments , and finally lets study together friendly

[god1quran1]

Salam ,

I am not trying to convince you because you already did your choice regarding this subject as i read through your post , and that wasn't your purpose anyway.

There is no need to get personal, mate. I am not sure which of my post you read but you are right. I disagree with the basic premise of your post as I do not believe in ritual prayers. The primary reason I chose to reply is to demonstrate how illogically developed arguments can lead to wrong conclusions.

So what ? Is there any connection between being mentioned once and the understanding i presented ? in fact it is being mentioned exactly only once and in that particular place and event for one major point is to show us that ruk3/ is kneeling down on the ground not 90 ? inclination . This is the only verse on teh whole qur'an if you want to examine , understand how physically is the movement of ruk3/ . I personally choose the understanding provided through this unique mentioning of khr = fall down and ruk3 = kneeling .

I will keep this discussion focused and demonstrate the logical fallacy of your argument.

The discuss is about the act of bowing down in ritual prayers. Lets take this verse

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_43.png 243

Everyone who has any interest in the subject of salat is aware of this verse. Does this verse contain the word 'khr' or any derivative of 'khr'? NO

Is there any verse that talks about salat and 'rukuh' also contains the word 'khr'? NO

So there is no act of falling down with respect to the word 'rukuh' being used solely in the verses that talk about ritual prayers. Again, to reiterate the word 'KHR' is not used in these verses.

In 3824, David is doing both one after the other and the words explain his actions. He first http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503 and as a consequence http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58502 happens. The words clearly explain the events and the causality of falling down which is http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503

There is nothing such as 'rkian' in that verse 3824 , the word is written like this / raki3 , do you see any n , this n is a tune fabrication added during the Abbasid era http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunation

OK but I don't think it affects the discussion we are having here.

Honestly I do not see any valid arguments here man , what your wrote is about a choice not an argument , you choose to understand that the term khr / fall down mean a modest gentle inclination , in your choice its a movement of bowing 90?.

Study the whole qur'an about the usage of the verb khr fall down if you are certain that it mean a gentle inclination not a fall down in the ground then we are simply wasting our time with this discussion, and in my modest opinion it will be about a personal choice not a argumentation justification

NO you are missing the point. I take issue with your use of 'KHR' to explain 'RUKUH' in verses that talk about ritual prayers such as 243. 'KHR' and 'r kf ayn' ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS HAVING DIFFERENT MEANINGS. You simply cannot extrapolate back your understanding of 3824 because 2 actions happen in this verse as opposed to only 1 in verse 243. KHR means falling down but that does not mean http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=660 should now be interpreted as falling down in 243.

If this "unfortunately ( " you expressed is for me ? then you do not need to as i do not feel so ...i feel )

Anyway , here it is how the building fell , stated in the same verse

1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)

http//imageshack.us/a/img443/4426/hqhh.jpg
This building was distracted from it's foundations , what will happen to the roof ? you sure you cannot extract any link between the roof fall down and Solomon fall down using the same verb khr ?

http//imageshack.us/a/img841/9796/96z4.jpg

A building taken from its foundations , does it look like is inclining in a 90?( bowing ) or fell down on the ground ( kneeling ) ?

And how is this related to a verse like 243 that talks about ritual prayers? Show me a verse that contains the word 'KHR' and also talks about ritual prayers?

For more precision you better use I instead of WE ....so you should write ( I cannot make any conclusions regarding....)

No need to get personal )

Where did you read in 3824 that Solomon was in unconscious state ?
Look when Moses was in a unconscious state how the qur'an described the fall down ( khr)

Please read my post carefully. I am referring to 3414. Focus on the word http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=55256

It is clear Solomon is in an unconscious state. You need to think through this more carefully. Did Solomon fall down after 'r kf ayn'? NO.

So this verse should be irrelevant to the discussion of discussing what 'r kf ayn' is in ritual prayers.

Ritual prayers are performed by living people. This verse does NOT contain the word 'r kf ayn'. Also, there is no verse that talks about ritual prayers mentions the word 'KHR'.

Do you now see the logical fallacy of your argument?

7143 (And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me that I may look at You." said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell down in a swoon / khr sa3iQa. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."

What does this verse have to do with 'r kf ayn' and ritual prayers? You simply do not get that 'KHR' and 'r kf ayn' are two distinct root words that have their own meanings.

Because you choose to not formulate the connection , What you are saying here is a choice , your choice . I studied and then learned a evident connection between the verb 'khr' fall down and the command of ruk3 in 3824 , i saw the connection convincing then i choose this way of analyzing , and i believe nowhere in the qur'an you can get to a even slight hint regarding the physical way of the movement of ruk3 except the key word which is khr / fall down and the connection with the verse 3824 and 1626

Lets not waste time and energy unless you have a solid studied valid arguments , and finally lets study together friendly

Again, in 3834 David http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503 and as a consequence http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58502 happens. 'r kf ayn' leads to a fall which is what is being depicted in 3824. THAT DOES NOT MEAN 'r kf ayn' IN ISOLATION should now be understood as falling down.

In 243 there is ONLY bowing. No fall occurs. Why? Simply because the word for fall 'KHR' DOES NOT EXIST.

I cannot be any clearer than this.

[Mazhar]

What does this verse have to do with 'r kf ayn' and ritual prayers? You simply do not get that 'KHR' and 'r kf ayn' are two distinct root words that have their own meanings.

Again, in 3834 David http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503 and as a consequence http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58502 happens. 'r kf ayn' leads to a fall which is what is being depicted in 3824. THAT DOES NOT MEAN 'r kf ayn' IN ISOLATION should now be understood as falling down.

In 243 there is ONLY bowing. No fall occurs. Why? Simply because the word for fall 'KHR' DOES NOT EXIST.

I cannot be any clearer than this.

The accusative active participle is the circumstantial clause for the subject of verb. This signifies that the fall was neither sudden, nor caused by external factors, but conscious move towards the Earth taking the posture of bowing.

People also deliberately fall to ground as those who prostrate

Falling of a dead body on the ground is totally a different thing.

[hafeez_kazi]

Peace all

Those who turn repentant (to Allah) (ALWAYS), those who serve (Him) (24 HOURS), those who praise (Him) (MORE OFTEN), those who fast (IN THE MONTH OF RAMADHAN) / move in the cause of Allah (WHEN NECESSARY), those who bow down (NO IDEA WHEN and WHY), those who prostrate (NO IDEA WHEN and WHY) those who enjoin the right (ALWAYS / MORE OFTEN) and who forbid the wrong (ALWAYS / MORE OFTEN) and those who keep the limits (ordained) of Allah (ALWAYS) - And give glad tidings to believers! 9112

There is no word SALAT in the above verse but only PHYSICAL BOWING and PHYSICAL PROSTRATING. CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN WHAT IS MEANT BY PHYSICAL BOWING AND PROSTRATING. Is there any command by Allah to bow and prostrate in the SALAT? Thanks there is no STANDING, SITTING, DANCING AND JUMPING. OTHERWISE the SALAT would have been like this yay and our SALAM would have been like this brickwall

Your ally is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed. Those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they are those who bow down 555

The bowers are those who establish the prayer and give Zakat. Do you find any logic in this interpretation? Bowing is a part of the Ritual Salat then why a separate command for BOWING? It means that those who do not give Zakat (commonly poor people and women) do not bow down. What Zakat has to do with the physical bowing? All those who bow in prayers do establish the prayers and give Zakat? Really confusing?

When the BELIEVERS will wake up from their ZOMBIE SLEEP? When they will apply their minds? The Ritual Salat is not validated by the Quran, then on what basis the believers are performing this irrational vigorous action or movement of the body in the SLAT?

Thanks

[cleanfox5982]

There is no need to get personal, mate.

ah no no fine dear this is just script typing software's interaction , we do not know each other how can be something personal between us ? anyway...

I disagree with the basic premise of your post as I do not believe in ritual prayers.

You said it ! you choose to not see the connection i made because you

do not believe in ritual prayers.

Your pre-believe set up regarding this subject is preceding any other "logical developed arguments demonstration" , anything out of your pre-believe set up in this matter will be a

The primary reason I chose to reply is to demonstrate how illogically developed arguments can lead to wrong conclusions.

And

I will keep this discussion focused and demonstrate the logical fallacy of your argument.

So your primary reason why you chose to reply is not

The primary reason I chose to reply is to demonstrate how illogically developed arguments can lead to wrong conclusions.

But because you

do not believe in ritual prayers .

Can you kindly show us using your logical developed argumentative demonstration that leads you to get to the right conclusions of

I do not believe in ritual prayers.

and

as there are some who do not consider salat to be ritual prayers?

Also what is the English term " ritual" and " prayer" mean for you ? how would you describe them ?

[god1quran1]

^By saying I do not believe in ritual prayers I am being intellectually honest by admitting my bias. However, note that I have given a point-by-point response to your post by using evidence from the Qur'an instead of writing a general post criticizing your understanding of what 'rukuh' means. If you think you have a strong case, reply with a point-by-point response instead of claiming I am biased towards your understanding. Saying 'your pre-believe setup is not making you see the connection' is really not an argument.

My suggestion would be for you to focus on words of the Qur'an and respond to my post by providing evidence from the The Reading. Convince me by providing an intelligent response instead of saying my mind is made up. That is really not an argument.

See post 45 as well. Mazhar who actually believes in ritual prayers has issues with your understanding as well.

It was you who wrote the post claiming a different interpretation of 'rukuh' I did not initiate a post about what I think salat is. For argument sake, if I gave you my explanation of salat , how does that make your understanding of 'rukuh' right?

Do you see the logical trap you are setting up for yourself?

Even those who believe in ritual prayers do not agree with your understanding so you have your work cut out. )

[sword_of_tashayyu]

How about Haj according to the Quran?

LOL

You guys are Nuts.

[god1quran1]

How about Haj according to the Quran?

LOL

You guys are Nuts.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

I guess in your case, the truth is still in the early stages so you have to cover a lot of ground to catch up!

[sword_of_tashayyu]

It is not sufficient that Quran mentions about Haj, Allah commanded the Prophet (sawa) to demonstrate to the people how it is done.

Only in Ahadith you can understand how Hajj is performed.

[hafeez_kazi]

Peace tashayyu

First of all you prove from the Quran that Abraham, Ismail and Hajar ever came to Mecca. This is the NUT which the traditionalist (SUNNI) and the fanatics (SHIA) tried to break but are still unsuccessful. Every minute detail of Abraham is mentioned in the Quran except the biggest story which is ultimately one of the (so called) PILLARS OF ISLAM.

Prove that the FIRST HOUSE in verse 396 is KAABA

According to verse 396 The FIRST HOUSE (BAYT) is WUDAI (PLACED / SETUP)

For your kind information your esteemed KAABA is not WUDAI (PLACED / SETUP) but constructed by MANKIND

You TRADITIONAL NUTS do not know what Allah Has

And cups set in place 8814

And the earth; He set up for the creatures 5510

And the sky, He raised; and He set up the balance 557

And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the book will be placed, / set up and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged 3969

We will set up the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so that no soul will suffer the least injustice. And even if it be the weight of a mustard-seed, We will bring it up. Sufficient are We as Reckoners 2147

And the book will be placed, and you will see the sinners fearful of its contents. And they will say, ?Woe to us! What is with this book that leaves nothing, small or big, but it has enumerated it?? They will find everything they had done present. Your Lord does not wrong anyone 1849

Do you still believe that the KAABA like EARTH is SETUP / PLACED by Allah?

According to verse 2125 the BAYT (house) is (APPOINTED / MADE)

Prove that your esteemed KAABA is WUDIA (placed / setup by Allah) 396 and then JA ALNAA (APPOINTED/ MADE) by Allah 2125

You people are only following conjectures

The FIRST HOUSE is BLESSED for MANKIND and a GUIDANCE for ALL PEOPLE

Prove what BLESSINGS are there in the KAABA and what type of GUIDANCE is available from the KAABA

WHAT YOU ARE FOLLOWING IS A BLIND FAITH AND RITUALS without any evidences and invalidated by the QURAN.

Thanks

[Mazhar]

Peace tashayyu

First of all you prove from the Quran that Abraham, Ismail and Hajar ever came to Mecca. This is the NUT which the traditionalist (SUNNI) and the fanatics (SHIA) tried to break but are still unsuccessful. Every minute detail of Abraham is mentioned in the Quran except the biggest story which is ultimately one of the (so called) PILLARS OF ISLAM.

Prove that the FIRST HOUSE in verse 396 is KAABA

According to verse 396 The FIRST HOUSE (BAYT) is WUDAI (PLACED / SETUP)

For your kind information your esteemed KAABA is not WUDAI (PLACED / SETUP) but constructed by MANKIND

You TRADITIONAL NUTS do not know what Allah Has

And cups set in place 8814

And the earth; He set up for the creatures 5510

And the sky, He raised; and He set up the balance 557

And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the book will be placed, / set up and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged 3969

We will set up the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so that no soul will suffer the least injustice. And even if it be the weight of a mustard-seed, We will bring it up. Sufficient are We as Reckoners 2147

And the book will be placed, and you will see the sinners fearful of its contents. And they will say, ?Woe to us! What is with this book that leaves nothing, small or big, but it has enumerated it?? They will find everything they had done present. Your Lord does not wrong anyone 1849

Do you still believe that the KAABA like EARTH is SETUP / PLACED by Allah?

According to verse 2125 the BAYT (house) is (APPOINTED / MADE)

Prove that your esteemed KAABA is WUDIA (placed / setup by Allah) 396 and then JA ALNAA (APPOINTED/ MADE) by Allah 2125

You people are only following conjectures

The FIRST HOUSE is BLESSED for MANKIND and a GUIDANCE for ALL PEOPLE

Prove what BLESSINGS are there in the KAABA and what type of GUIDANCE is available from the KAABA

WHAT YOU ARE FOLLOWING IS A BLIND FAITH AND RITUALS without any evidences and invalidated by the QURAN.

Thanks

What is the name of City where Qur'aan was revealed?

[GODsubmitter]

Please do not deviate form this thread about Salat to Hajj et al, this thread is becoming somewhat spammed and polluted already...

Thanx

peace

[Zulf]

The FIRST HOUSE is BLESSED for MANKIND and a GUIDANCE for ALL PEOPLE

Prove what BLESSINGS are there in the KAABA and what type of GUIDANCE is available from the KAABA

exactly

[diamantinehoneybunch]

Please do not deviate form this thread about Salat to Hajj et al, this thread is becoming somewhat spammed and polluted already...

Thanx

peace

Peace,

You should see who started deviating from topic.
|
|
|
V

How about Haj according to the Quran?

LOL

You guys are Nuts.

[hafeez_kazi]

Peace brother Mazhar

The following are the verses which disqualifies Mecca as the place of Abraham

And indeed they have come upon the town (town of LOUT, supposed to be in Jordan, some 1400 kms away from Mecca) whereon was rained the fatal rain. Can it be that they have not seen it? Nay, but they hope for no resurrection 2540

If Jordan is the destination of the people of Lout then where should be the location of the following prophets

"And O my people! let not my dissent (from you) cause you to sin, lest ye suffer a fate similar to that of the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih, nor are the people of Lut far off from you 1189

Prophet Shuaib proclaimed to his people that the people of Noah, Hud, Salih and Lut are not far away from you and this means that the people of Shuaib were the successors to these people and knew the stories of the said prophets because their dwelling place was not far away from each other. If Lut was in Jordan then the rest of the prophets should also be in Jordan but according to the verses of the Quran and the historical data available there is no doubt that all these prophets were never in Jordan but old Yemen.

And assuredly We have destroyed the cities around you, and We have variously propounded our signs, that haply they might return 4627

Are there any TOWNS around MECCA destroyed by Allah? Can the above statement be validated by history and archaeology of Mecca?

And surely (the town of Lout) it is on a road established /that still abides 1576

So We took retribution from them, and indeed, both are on a clear highway 1579

If the town of Lout is under the Dead Sea in Jordan, then why Allah is saying that it is on a road established and on a highway?

You pass by {their habitations (of Lout)} (IN JORDAN) in the morning and by night will ye not understand 37137/138

Is it possible to see the ruined town of Lout in the morning and at night while Jordan is located at a distance of 1400 kms from Mecca?

And ye dwell in the dwellings of those who had wronged themselves and it had become manifest unto you in what wise We had dealt with them, and We had propounded for you similitudes. 1445

In whose dwellings the people of Mecca were dwelling? Of Noah, Hud, Salih,or Shuaib?

And (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud! (Their fate) is manifest unto you from their (ruined and deserted) dwellings. Satan made their deeds seem fair unto them and so debarred them rom the Way, though they were keen observers 2938

The ruined dwellings of Aad and Thamud were manifest to the people of the First House (MECCA/KAABA) but unfortunately these towns were located in YEMEN.

That is from the stories of the Cities (of Noah, Hud, Salih, Lout, Shuaib, Moses) which We recount unto thee of them some are standing and some mown down 11100

Some of the above towns did exist during the period of the prophet while some were mown by the pass of the time.

The above verses disqualifies Mecca / Kaaba as the claimant of the FIRST HOUSE

But unfortunately the place where Abraham dwelled (in Yemen) is lost forever or unless Saudis yield to the demand of exploring Yemen so that the truth can be unearthed.

The pre Islamic poet?s confession about the Kaaba of Mecca

The Pre - Islamic odes or what is collectively called in Arabic "Mu'alaqat" are long Arabic odes. They are seven, though other opinions say that they are nine or ten by adding two or three other poets. They are considered the best of Arabic poetry written in Arabia before Islam. "Mu'alaqa" or plural (Mu'allaqat) can be literally translated into English as "the suspended odes", since, due to the immense appreciation of them, they were hung on the Ka'ba curtains in Mecca. The Arabs were so interested in poetry and valued it to an extent that they considered the poet as the tongue of the tribe and the defender of its dignity and heroic image. As a result, the Mu'allaqat were written in gold and hung on the Ka'ba curtains. That is why, they are called sometimes "the golden or gilded odes". These poets lived and prospered in the sixth century AD. The earliest of the seven was Imru' Ul-Qais, who is known as the best and first poet who composed the Arabic ode (qaseedah). These odes have no titles; but they are named after the names of their poets who are as follows

1.Imru' Ul-Qais
2.Antara Ibn Shaddad.
3.Zuhair Ibn Abi Sulma.
4.Amr Ibn Kulthoum.
5.Al-Harith Ibn Hiliza
6.Labeed Alameri.
7.Tarfa Ibn Alabd.

The most precious documents for the involvement of the tribal groups Quraysh and Jurhum in the Kaaba and also of the members of these tribes Qusayy and Al Mudad are two verses by the pre Islamic poets Zuhair and Al Ash?a. Both were considered poets of the Seven Suspended Odes and Zuhair?s verse appears in fact in one of them in his own Muallaqa, his Suspended Ode, Zuhair speaks of Quraish and Jurhum as having been engaged in the building of the Kaaba while Al Asha is more specific and actually names the two members of the Quarish and Jurhum whose name are associated with the building or restoration. Thus the two complement each other and document the two phases of custodianship and restoration of the Kaaba, those of Jurhum and Quraish

Those who have written on the Kaaba and Qusayy have not seriously examined these two precious verses. There is no question of their authenticity and the soundness of their textual tradition. In view of the unreliability of much of the prose sources of later Islamic times about both Quraish in the times of Qusayy and the more remote Jurhum, it is necessary to subject these pre Islamic documents to an extensive examination, all the more so because they have recently been examined intensively in regard to the enigmatic tribe of Jurhum

One of the verses of Zuhair?s Suspended Odes makes a reference to the building of the Kaaba by Quraish and Jurhum

'Then I swear by the House, round which walk the men who built it from the tribes of Quraish and Jurhum.

In defense of the authenticity and soundness of this verse the following may be adduced.

The verse comes in the most celebrated of the poems of a celebrated pre Islamic poet ? one of the three foremost, according to some critics. Thus it is does not belong to the corpus of pre Islamic poetry which has been haunted by the ghosts of authenticity and attribution. Besides, Zuhair was a very late pre Islamic poet, a younger contemporary of the prophet himself and not the one who belonged to the much earlier period or to group of minor poets about whom little or nothing is known except their names and solitary verses.

What is equally important is the place of the verse in the structure of this polythematic ode of Zuhair. It does not come in that part which some hypercritical scholars have suspected of being an Islamic forgery, including two or three verses which betray a striking similarity to Quranic sentiments and lexicology. These verses however come in the gnomic part of the poem, while the verse in question comes in the central part which is the main theme of the poem, expressing the occasion on which it was composed, namely, the resolution of the differences between the two tribes of Abs and Dubyan, which had fought long. The two Sayyids (chiefs) who effected the reconciliation and brought about the termination of the war are called Harim and Harith, and the poem is a published text in their honor.

The syntax of the verse proves the point incontrovertibly. The line by itself is not complete so it cannot have been one of these ?wandering verses? in the old Arabic pre Islamic poetry which could migrate from one portion of the Qasida to another because of the atomic structure of classical Arabic verse, in which each line is self-contained unit semantically and syntactically. This verse is semantically and syntactically incomplete, since the initial verb in the line, FA AQSAMTU is a transitive verb which has for its object the first word in the following line which reads ?YAMINAN LANI?MA ASSAIYIDAANI WUJIDTUMA ALAA KULLI BAALIN MIN SABILIN WAMUBRAMI? (a solemn oath I swear ? you have proved yourselves fine masters in all matters, be the thread single or twisted double). The object of the verb AQSAMTU is YAMINAN in this line which praises and glorifies the two SAYYIDS who brought about the peace between their tribes. Thus the verse is firmly established in authenticity and in textual soundness and no critic or editor of the MUALLAQAT has ever assailed the line on either of these two grounds.

Why did Zuhair write that the tribes of Quraish and Jurhum built the Kaaba and why not Abraham? Why the religion of Abraham via Ismail got lost and via Ishaq mushroomed? The word Zuhair used was constructed and not maintenance or restoration. Why the Arabs never criticized the verses of Zuhair and considered him to be a liar? Why Prophet Muhammad, later, when he was appointed as prophet did not correct the verses saying that it was Abraham who built the Kaaba?

The tribes of Quraish

The origin of the tribes of Jurhum is undoubtedly Yemen but the origin of the tribes of the so called Quraysh is doubtful.

Arab historical memory recalled Qusayy as the ?UNIFIER?. He was, the tradition reported , ?the first of the Kinana who achieved the rulership, and who united his tribe, the Quraysh?. The later Arabs were perfect clear as to who was Quraysh and who was not, but were somewhat uncertain as to where that people had come from, chiefly, perhaps, because of the absence from the tribal genealogy of any eponymous ancestor named ?Quraysh? as Ibn Kalbi confesses. The founder of the house?s power was Qusayy, it was agreed, and his lineage went back to one Fihr the ?gatherer? of the Quraysh , the son of Malik. In his discussion of the later , Al Tabari reflects on the more general question of who precisely the Quraysh were.

It is said that the Quraysh were so called after one Quraysh Ibn Badar? of the Al Nadr branch of the Kinana. This is because when the caravan of Banu Al Nadr arrived, the arabs used to say ?the caravan of Quraysh has arrived?. They say that this Quraysh was the guide of Banu Al Nadr in their travels and was responsible for provisioning them. He had a son named Badr who dugged the well at (the place called) Badr and the well called Badr is named after him.

Ibn Al Kalbi (maintains that) Quraysh is a collective name and cannot be traced to a father or mother, or to a male or female guardian. Others say that the descendants of Al Nadr Ibn Kinana were called Quraysh because Al Nadr Ibn Kinana came out one day to his tribal assembly and they said to one another ?look at Nadr, he looks like a Quraysh camel? and so not the very convincing etymologies continue. At least one of them suggests that the term Quraysh is of a more recent coinage.

Some say that Al Nadr Ibn Kinana was himself called Quraysh, while others deny this and maintain that Al Nadr?s descendants continued to be called Banu AlNadr until Qusayy Ibn Kilab gathered them together. They were then called Quraysh because they had been gathered together, which is the meaning of the ?TAQARASHA?. The Arabs used to say TAQARRASHA BANU AL NADR, which means that they were gathered together (AL TABARI , Annals 1.1103-1104 = Tabari vi 29-30)

The fact is that the present Kaaba is nothing more than a place of idol worship, but the believers say that we do not worship the Kaaba but admire it because it is the House of Allah. Did not Allah say that do not ASSOCIATE with me ANYTHING

We assigned to Abraham a place of the first dwelling place, saying, "Do not associate with Me ANYTHING and PURGE/ERADICATE/REMOVE (idol worshipping) (from) My House ( My dwelling place) for those who are faction (a small, organized, dissenting group within a larger one) and those who support/uphold (monotheism) and those who are humble in submission 2226

Allah never said ?MY KAABA? but ?BAYTI? MY HOUSE.

Brother Mazhar the ball is in your court. Disprove all the verses which I have quoted and prove Mecca as the place where Quran was revealed. Honestly I cannot name the exact town except Yemen where the Quran was revealed but I am sure that the place is not Mecca.

Thanks