Al-Amiyr's claims and statements - let's examine
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Peace,
Do not tell me people here promote stoning because it says so in "the book" (the previous scriptures or "the system". We all know the previous scriptures are very biased, and I am sure stoning is one of those. If such a drastic procedure was supported by God it would have written in the Quran for sure, same as circumcision.
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Peace,
Do not tell me people here promote stoning because it says so in "the book" (the previous scriptures or "the system". We all know the previous scriptures are very biased, and I am sure stoning is one of those. If such a drastic procedure was supported by God it would have written in the Quran for sure, same as circumcision.
But the Quran recognized that previous scripture and gave it authority. Many of the laws in the Book of Moses was based on the Israelites worshiping the calf. We are told in the Quran Moses asked them to take their own lives and then God forgave them. These laws were introduced after that. No prophet in the Ot appied these laws because they were based on circumstances. The Quran itself acknowledged hat many laws were presented to the Israelites as a punishment for their sins.
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Again you have failed to deliver while passing false side remarks and assertions.
Point one.
Do not link me to the 19 theory of what you are accustomed to. I was referring to something completely else that I did not give any explanation to.Point two
Disorganized, illogical, cannot focus on one task at a time, gives incomplete or vague answers.The problem is you cannot back up your statements. You are continuing with your false statements. Again where did the statement you quoted say that "Umar was referring to the Qur'aan. Show it! He was referring to the Book (al-kitaab). You yourself insert the word Qur'aan. You are the one who have falsified the statement. I said to you that "umar was not referring to the Qur'aan but to the Book (al-kitaab). Do you find stoning (rajm) in the Qur'aan. No, you do not. You find it in the Book (al-kitaab). But you are of the people who have no idea what the book (al-kitaab) is and therefore you continue to mislead not only yourselves but others as well.Look at your misleading statement,
did the book or Qur'an command anyone to stone people?No the Qur'aan did not but the book (al-kitaab) did.
I quoted the story of the Bishop to show that the Kitaab was with the bishop as well. And that "Umar(r+) wanted to know from the Bishop what knowledge he had of the book (al-kitaab) and what does the kitaab speak about him. He did not ask the Bishop what he knew about what the Qur'aan said about him. The illogical part does not come from these illustrious men who were with the messenger of ALLAAH (S+) but it comes from others who have no idea what is going on.
Peace
The Quran only stipulated capital punsihment for murder (soul for a soul) and did the same in the OT. You are not reading the OT properly.
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The Quran only stipulated capital punsihment for murder (soul for a soul) and did the same in the OT. You are not reading the OT properly.
I am not speaking about capital punishment but whether or not it is in the Qur'aan or the Kitaab. What am I not reading properly in the OT. Please let me know because you seem to have no idea what you are speaking about. Must I present to you the verses?
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I am not speaking about capital punishment but whether or not it is in the Qur'aan or the Kitaab. What am I not reading properly in the OT. Please let me know because you seem to have no idea what you are speaking about. Must I present to you the verses?
None of the prophets in the OT ever applied these laws which is what i am trying to say. These laws came when the Israelites worshiped the calf. It was specific to that incident just like the sabbath. It was specific to a time period.
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146 And to those who are Jews We prohibited every animal of uncloven hoof; and of the cattle and the sheep We prohibited to them their fat, except what adheres to their backs or the entrails or what is joined with bone. that We repaid them for their injustice. And indeed, We are truthful
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157 Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful
7.163 And ask them about the town that was by the sea - when they transgressed in the sabbath - when their fish came to them openly on their sabbath day, and the day they had no sabbath they did not come to them. Thus did We give them trial because they were defiantly disobedient.
- 124 The sabbath was only appointed for those who differed over it. And indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.
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It is not about whether anybody applied the laws or not. It is whether the Book contains those laws or not. That is what this is all about. Are you saying that the Book does not contain any mention of stoning? This has also nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of a situation; whether one supports it or not.
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It is not about whether anybody applied the laws or not. It is whether the Book contains those laws or not. That is what this is all about. Are you saying that the Book does not contain any mention of stoning? This has also nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of a situation; whether one supports it or not.
I never said it did not state it. But the OT did not come in Moses lifetime only. It spans hundreds of years. All I am saying is the OT is structured differently than the Quran. The Quran did not refer to the OT as God's word but said it was God's book. The Gospel also is refered to as God's book but Jesus was God's word as he was given the holy spirit. God talked to Moses something He did not do with the others. He gave Muhammad the Quran which is God's word as well as book. Muhammad meanwhile was not given to holy spirit like Jesus. Jesus preached when he was in the cradle and preached when he was a child, somthing that Moses or Muhammad couldn't do.
Every prophet was given something the others weren't. You can not read the OT like the Quran. Thats all I am saying.
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I am not speaking about capital punishment but whether or not it is in the Qur'aan or the Kitaab. What am I not reading properly in the OT. Please let me know because you seem to have no idea what you are speaking about. Must I present to you the verses?
salaam brother al-amiyr
Yesterday, after having performed 2 rakaat, imploring Allaah (swt) to make me accept your exposition of Al Kitaab Maknuwn, if it be the truth, and reject it if it was not, I have accepted it as truth. After that I've been re-reading your texts and was amazed to find so much I had apparently missed before.
I realised that I had not been reading it with an open mind before, but with a critical mind, which prevented me from seeing many things that, Alhumdu'lilaah, I'm now seeing clearly. IOW in order to understand one must read with an open mind, which I suspect many here are not doing. Thus all the misunderstandings and bickering.
JazaakhAllahuKhair for all your efforts. sun -
salaam brother al-amiyr
Yesterday, after having performed 2 rakaat, imploring Allaah (swt) to make me accept your exposition of Al Kitaab Maknuwn, if it be the truth, and reject it if it was not, I have accepted it as truth. After that I've been re-reading your texts and was amazed to find so much I had apparently missed before.
I realised that I had not been reading it with an open mind before, but with a critical mind, which prevented me from seeing many things that, Alhumdu'lilaah, I'm now seeing clearly. IOW in order to understand one must read with an open mind, which I suspect many here are not doing. Thus all the misunderstandings and bickering.
JazaakhAllahuKhair for all your efforts. sun+salaam brother Omar
I have no doubt that all in the world who listens to the explanation of the Book (al-kitaab) will accept it not as my word but the very word of ALLAAH found in The Qur'aan. The Qur'aan is the explanation of the Book (al-kitaab). If this was not backed up by the Qur'aan itself then this endeavor would be totally useless.
A number of factors could create misunderstanding which among others are as follows.1)- The time was not right.
2)- The explanation given was not understood.
3)- The person to whom it was explained did not follow the explanations and so got side tracked along the way and it became just a lot of
none sense to him or her.
4)- ShayTaan and his allies' constant vigilance and distractions. He knows that when this knowledge gets known then it is over with him
from misleading those who have come to know.I also sent more information and diagrams today. I hope that you read it.
shukran and +salaam
The sending of the Book (al_kitaab) to Humanity.
002213
Humanity was one people
and ALLAAH sent Messengers giving good news and warning and with them He sent
the Book (al_kitaab) in the Truth
to judge between the people in matters wherein they differed.004054
But We had already given the Family of Abraham ("ibraaHiym)
the Book (al_kitaab)
and
the Wisdom
and conferred upon them a Great Kingdom.0028043
And We had already given Moses The Book (al_kitaab)
after We had detroyed the first generations
mental perceptions and visions for humanity
and
Guidance and Mercy
in order for them to think of and bear in mind.003048
And ALLAAH will teach him (Jesus (D+)
The Book (al_kitaab)
and
The Wisdom (al_hikmah)
and
The Torah (al_tawrah)
and
The Gospel (al_'injiyl)006155
And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing so follow it
and work towards perfect righteousness in order that you may receive mercy.006156
Lest you should say,
"The Book (al_kitaab) was sent down to Two Peoples before us
and that we were upon their studies truly unaware.006157
Or lest you should say,
"If the Book (al_kitaab) had been sent down to us, we would have been better guided than them."
And so there has come to you an indisputable evidence from your Lord
and a Guide and a Mercy.
And who can be more unjustly wrong than one who denies the Signs (al_aayaat) of ALLAAH
and turns away from them.
We shall reward those who turn away from Our Signs with the calamity of punishment
for their having turned away.And it was not that This Qur?aan
could have been contrived by other than ALLAAH.
But it is a confirmation of What is between His Hands
and
a detailed explanation of The Book (al_kitaab) wherein there is no doubt
from The Lord of the Worlds.056077 - 080.
And truly it is a Noble Qur?aan
in a Hidden Book.
None touches it except the Purified Ones;
a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. -
Peace be unto thee.
I am accused of being a liar by al-amiyr. He only says I am a liar without even saying what I lie.
I just critize his posts but he made pure ad hominem against me.
I have proofs of what he said.
But he doesn't have any proof that I am a liar, distorter.
I think I am the worst person he has ever met on the internet because no one has ever criticized him as I do.
This quote proves that al-amiyr admitted that stoning is in alkitab.
Again you have failed to deliver while passing false side remarks and assertions.
Point one.
Do not link me to the 19 theory of what you are accustomed to. I was referring to something completely else that I did not give any explanation to.Point two
Disorganized, illogical, cannot focus on one task at a time, gives incomplete or vague answers.The problem is you cannot back up your statements. You are continuing with your false statements. Again where did the statement you quoted say that "Umar was referring to the Qur'aan. Show it! He was referring to the Book (al-kitaab). You yourself insert the word Qur'aan. You are the one who have falsified the statement. I said to you that "umar was not referring to the Qur'aan but to the Book (al-kitaab). Do you find stoning (rajm) in the Qur'aan. No, you do not. You find it in the Book (al-kitaab). But you are of the people who have no idea what the book (al-kitaab) is and therefore you continue to mislead not only yourselves but others as well.Look at your misleading statement,
did the book or Qur'an command anyone to stone people?No the Qur'aan did not but the book (al-kitaab) did.
I quoted the story of the Bishop to show that the Kitaab was with the bishop as well. And that "Umar(r+) wanted to know from the Bishop what knowledge he had of the book (al-kitaab) and what does the kitaab speak about him. He did not ask the Bishop what he knew about what the Qur'aan said about him. The illogical part does not come from these illustrious men who were with the messenger of ALLAAH (S+) but it comes from others who have no idea what is going on.
Peace
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Peace be unto thee.
I am accused of being a liar by al-amiyr. He only says I am a liar without even saying what I lie.
I just critize his posts but he made pure ad hominem against me.
I have proofs of what he said.
But he doesn't have any proof that I am a liar, distorter.
I think I am the worst person he has ever met on the internet because no one has ever criticized him as I do.
This quote proves that al-amiyr admitted that stoning is in alkitab.
Another piece of your professional cunningness- a provocateur with a hidden agenda to see that the Book (al-kitaab) does not get to be known here.
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Another piece of your professional cunningness- a provocateur with a hidden agenda to see that the Book (al-kitaab) does not get to be known here.
Nice ad hominem.
You just don't like it when people.criticize and question your posts right?
I don't have any hidden agenda.
By reading posts on this thread, there are much more people have criticized you before.
You should accept criticism, Al Amiyr.
Tell me, what is the benefit of stoning people?
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Nice ad hominem.
You just don't like it when people.criticize and question your posts right?
I don't have any hidden agenda.
By reading posts on this thread, there are much more people have criticized you before.
You should accept criticism, Al Amiyr.
Tell me, what is the benefit of stoning people?
You are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole from which you will not escape. Dig deeper! Your lies and distortions are all being recorded. You are continuing to make serious charges.
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You are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole from which you will not escape. Dig deeper! Your lies and distortions are all being recorded. You are continuing to make serious charges.
You make me chuckle ;D
You keep saying I lie this, I lie that? I lie about what? Where's the proof? I already prove that you said stoning is in alkitab.
I don't mean to dig deeper and deeper but since you say I lie without even proving what I lie, I show you.
Have a nice day.
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You make me chuckle ;D
You keep saying I lie this, I lie that? I lie about what? Where's the proof? I already prove that you said stoning is in alkitab.
I don't mean to dig deeper and deeper but since you say I lie without even proving what I lie, I show you.
Have a nice day.
Laughing at yourself! Don't be pretentious. You still remain a liar.
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Proof of diamantinehoneybunch lying would be nice - al-amiyr, you do realise that you are claiming that you have 'long hidden knowledge passed over 44 generations' to a group of people who are struggling to trust information supposedly passed over a couple generations, right? I don't understand why you act the way you do (bordering on snide at times) when people question you, considering the circumstances here.
Frankly, what you're claiming is probably even harder to swallow for most people than the traditional sunni line-of-thought is. The easiest way for you to atleast get people to take your thoughts somewhat seriously is to make your book publicly available in full (and if you are working on this, simply don't post until you're ready to make the book available)
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Proof of her lying would be nice - al-amiyr, you do realise that you are claiming that you have 'long hidden knowledge passed over 44 generations' to a group of people who are struggling to trust information supposedly passed over a couple generations, right? I don't understand why you act the way you do (bordering on snide at times) when people question you, considering the circumstances here.
Frankly, what you're claiming is probably even harder to swallow for most people than the traditional sunni line-of-thought is. The easiest way for you to atleast get people to take your thoughts somewhat seriously is to make your book publicly available in full (and if you are working on this, simply don't post until you're ready to make the book available)
+salaam Azz
Do you know what this fight between diamantinehoneybunch and myself is about? Do you know what the lies are that I am referring to? It has nothing to do with what you are referring to.
As far as the Book (al-kitaab) is concerned many of this forum have already acknowledged it and are studying it. Others have not seen it yet and are therefore still in a state of confusion. Why do you not let me show you what it is then see for yourself?+salaam
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Proof of diamantinehoneybunch lying would be nice - al-amiyr, you do realise that you are claiming that you have 'long hidden knowledge passed over 44 generations' to a group of people who are struggling to trust information supposedly passed over a couple generations, right? I don't understand why you act the way you do (bordering on snide at times) when people question you, considering the circumstances here.
Frankly, what you're claiming is probably even harder to swallow for most people than the traditional sunni line-of-thought is. The easiest way for you to atleast get people to take your thoughts somewhat seriously is to make your book publicly available in full (and if you are working on this, simply don't post until you're ready to make the book available)
He didn't even state what I lied.
I have re-quoted his post which he said that stoning is indeed in alkitab.
He gets mad whenever people question his posts. sigh
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Provided the argument between you and diamantinehoneybunch isn't in regards to any sort of personal information, I don't see what's hard about simply and bluntly stating what she lied about and proof of it in the post instead of wasting time by dragging things out in some some long 'no, you're wrong' fight. It's of no concern to me what the argument is about (none of my buisiness really) on the contrary I think all it's doing is muddying discussion and that if you can end it then you should.
Sorry but I don't understand how I'm stopping you from showing me (or anyone else) this book. You are able to present it in full, right?
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Provided the argument between you and diamantinehoneybunch isn't in regards to any sort of personal information, I don't see what's hard about simply and bluntly stating what she lied about and proof of it in the post instead of wasting time by dragging things out in some some long 'no, you're wrong' fight. It's of no concern to me what the argument is about (none of my buisiness really) on the contrary I think all it's doing is muddying discussion and that if you can end it then you should.
Sorry but I don't understand how I'm stopping you from showing me (or anyone else) this book. You are able to present it in full, right?
Well I said it before! I will repeat it here for clarification.
Salaam everyone
Looks like some members in here missunderstood Al-Amyr.Some of members in here accuse Al-Amyr's ancestors as supporter or even performer of stoning without anykind of proof.
I won't take side in this debate nor supporting al-amyr, but accusing someone withouth anykind of clear proof is act of fitnah and fitnah is more harsh than murdering (QS 21191).
If we patient to read al-amyr posts in here, then we will know if Al-amyr's claim if his forefathers was presecuted and even became victim of stoning by some sectarian politicians.
And one of his ancestor, Hajj Atullah Effendi a Turkish consult to Singapore is a hero for Indonesian, Malaysian and Singaporean because he brevely to stand up against European colonizer and he end to be murdered by British agent.
I'm nothing, but my post is just for a reminder.
Peace
Earthdom,
I know you are actually talking about me right? I never said that his ancestors stoned people.
I ASKED did his forefathers stone people? How many?Salaam Yuliana
I'm not accusing you, but for anticipate if this debate turned into like that.
Btw the word "Al" before "Kitab" indicate if that Kitab (book in english) is "something special" and not "ordinary one", so this means Al-Kitab=Scripture.
The Scripture is not only Al-Quran but also Bible, Torah, Wedha, Tripitaka etc.But until now I don't understand what is "Al-Kitab", al-amyr refers to??
But yes there are some verses in the Old (Torah) and New Testament which talking about stoning.Peace
Regarding the Al Kitaab of Al Amiyr, that is what I have been curious about.
Do you believe that the present-day Torah and Old Testament are the same revelations that God sent down?
+salaam brother Earthdom
You speak intelligently, respectfully, and amicably. There is no proof that any of my ancestors have stoned anybody to death. We have always implemented the other laws of ALLAAH associated with mercy and forgiveness. For every law ALLAAH has made He has also made exceptions under circumstances. No one in the world need to be stoned. Personally I know of many men and women who have committed adultery and came to me to speak about it. I told them what to do to receive the forgiveness of the lord. We never hand people over to death.
The original discussion began when people accused "umar ibn al-khaTTaab of saying the Qur'aan has a missing stoning verse when "umar was referring not to the Qur'aan but to the Book (al-kitaab). It has nothing to do with me or my fore fathers personally.
This lady then made it into a personal issue and virtually accused me and my fore fathers of agreeing to stone people. Nowhere did I ever say this or even explain the matter. Then she started mentioning it in other threads even if it was off topic. In this way I understood that she hoped to turn people against me. I promise that if she does not repent to ALLAAH from this great offense and crime in Islaam then it will haunt her for the rest of her life.
Yes! Ahmad Ataulla Effendi was my father's father's eldest brother. He was born in 1865 and was killed by the British for helping to bring freedom to all the Malay nations of South East Asia. He is regarded as a hero by them and many other nations. Even in South Africa he is called the father of South African multiracial politics. At present there are three historians writing about his life.
Also I am starting with some lessons to understand the Book (al-kitaab). So far three have volunteered to be part of the discussions. Here is the thread. I hope that you will also be part of that discussion. Let me know inshaa ALLAAH. Click here! http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605750.msg338407#msg338407
+salaam
You don't have any constructive debate or argument at all.
Sigh.I didn't lie anything about you and you are the one who says me this, says me that, says me blah blah blah because I ask you questions, criticize your POSTS.
In your wow thread I just simply requested you to show your so-called book and then you made ad hominem as replies to every single post I posted to you.
Nothing rational with most of what you have done against me.
I hope it is not what your Abu Bakr Effendi taught.You are angry when people question your madhab and then make ad hominem against them.
Can you tell me when will you answer my other 21 questions? Scared to answer?
I treat liars differently. I just ignore them and throw their mockery back at them. I realized a long time ago that nothing constructive will come from you. In the end you will be disliked by all whoever come to know you. That is my personal assessment. Time will tell.
Further I have respectfully answered many questions of other members. Many can bear witness to it. This month alone I have spent over 100 hours just on answering posters questions.
Even your questions I was preparing to answer nicely and then you for no reason began with your previous bad ways. I say this and I say it clearly if you are serious then I will begin again to address your questions based upon the conditions we agreed to in the beginning.
The decision is yours. I have many other things to do than to be distracted.
People, for God's sake... are we really here to engage in this poisonous mud slinging? These kinds of "debates" are the opposite of the fruits we should be generating by salaa and zakaa. Dear fellow human beings... you are much greater than this... don't let petty emotions cloud your spirits and your human light. We don't have to react to everything. Let peace come in...
group+salaam
I agree with you one hundred percent. But if you were accused of wanting to stone people, how would you respond when this same statement is made by the same member over and over again in other threads as well. Should this member not be reprimanded?
I respect what you have said and I shall cease.
Thanks and +salaam
Can you tell me what did I lie?
I lied nothing but you simply made ad hominem against me, call me a liar who mocks you simply for questioning your posts especially the stoning thingy. And you also threatened me to 'expose' me just because I question you.
Yes, you are right. I will be disliked by everyone just for questioning you.I have always wanted to cease this debate but you keep making irrelevant attacks as replies to my posts so I just try to defend myself instead of being called a liar for just questioning.
Then let us shake hands handshake and enjoy the sunshine sun and begin a new round of friendly debates. What do you say? peace
It is generally about the above. Then she started again in another thread about stoning and my supporting it. I have noticed that if she goes around making all kinds of false statements then hardly any comment. But when I reply just as harshly as she does then some members chime in and even taking sides. Is that not anti-Qur'aanic behaviour?
+salaam