Artificial Intelligences and The Method of Creation
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Hello everyone, I have been following the forums for a couple of days and decided to join as my beliefs are similar to those discussed here.
I want to discuss a point. Not something that many would consider important as it's completely hypothetical but I think a discussion of such nature could help us ponder about the creation.
Let's think of AI's, Artificial Intelligences, as seen in a lot of science fiction novels, films etc. It could be a computer intelligence or one with a body (preferably non-remote). Let's hypothesise that these AI's are incredibly complex, they are self aware and they are able to modify their code in order to improve themselves in a desired way. In other words, pretty much like us, humans. Now it should be obvious that such a creature is more than a machine as it is able to feel and believe; to ignore logic and to act with emotion.
Now, who created such a thing, as it could perhaps be considered even alive? Did we create it? We certainly made it, but in a certain way. Then how in the world did it become able to modify itself?
From this hypothesis, I would like to share my concept of creation. We made these AI's, but with tools. We made the tools but with different, less complex ones. And at the start, we used raw materials. That is where the distinction between making and creating lies. When making something, you use something which you did make yourself but when creating, everything you make must be made using what you made. So of course, humans are not capable of creating.
So, we made these AI's. The materials that were used to make these things were created by God. We were also created by God. So, it was actually God who created these things and we were just a tool of this creation.
Now a possible argument against this notion could be this "God gave us free will, so he does not affect our actions therefore he cannot have used us."
Yes, we have free will. We have the ability to decide our actions but only our actions. God puts us into situations, by using his creation and we decide what action we will take in the context that we are in. And as he is unbound by time, he already knows what actions we will take, it would be easy for him to nudge the reality in a way he desires by putting key people in key situations.
So to counclude my disoriented thoughts, I believe God's creation is not simply making things appear out of thin air. He uses methods so subtle that it is hard to notice that he indeed was involved. I think this is a good counter-argument against non-believers who try to disprove God and his creation by oversimplifying these ideas. I cannot claim this is true as I have no evidence based on neither Quran nor research but I also couldn't find any fundamental errors in my logic.
I'd like to hear your thoughts. If you could find any evidence supporting or disproving this, I'd be grateful.
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Peace drakai and welcome,
To summerize what you are saying, if I got you right
Only the god the creator is able to create things out of the void. We, humans, are only transforming existing things into other things.
Further more, up to this point in human history, we can sense less than 5% of what is existing in this universe, even with all the modern instruments. Most of the univers is still hidden, it is called by scientist as dark matter/energy.
So, we are ignorant about most part of this creation, we should not be so arrogant.
Peace
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That is not wrong but my main message was different. A lot of the time, both believers and non-believers tend to think that creating means making things appear out of thin air. That's part the reason why so many refuse to believe evolution exists. I believe God doesn't have to create everything directly to be called creator.
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I'd like to hear your thoughts. If you could find any evidence supporting or disproving this, I'd be grateful.
Humans can "create" (2917, 349) i.e, make or produce (things).
However, - GOD is the Best of (all) creatorS (2314; 37125)Humans cannot "originate" (something out of nothing)
The Best of (all) creators is the sole Originator (1751, 351).Just my 2? worth.
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Humans can "create" (2917, 349) i.e, make or produce (things).
However, - GOD is the Best of (all) creatorS (2314; 37125)Humans cannot "originate" (something out of nothing)
The Best of (all) creators is the sole Originator (1751, 351).Just my 2? worth.
That's pretty much what I tried to say, no?
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Salam Drakai,
I must say I agree with your logic as I am myself a programmer, I believe in a smart God. Why create a universe only to do all the work? Its obvious that the universe runs on laws, my favourite being Gravity. Go back to the old days where the common belief was that multiple gods acted out life, one kept your feet on the ground by pulling at them, another had the sun in a net and danced round the world to create night and day. Being a Monotheist doesn't suddenly convert all them roles from multiple gods to one, God created a system that runs itself.
My most common theological argument, usually with other Muslims, is the issue of fate and free will. I get annoyed when people mention that "God wills everything" and written in a sense that God either chooses to save you from a situation or makes a concious choice to do nothing. I think this is a simplistic view of how the universe (and God) works. It also becomes questionable, as God would have to actively decide for a Paedophile to be allowed to sexually assault children by not doing anything about it. This is also a common argument I have with atheists, why would God allow bad things to happen if he could will it to not happen.
It all boils down to Humans having free will, tested, and eventually judged. If God was to 'will' absolutely everything, the test and therefore Judgement becomes a joke, and our lives become meaningless. This concept I cannot get round to my co-religionists that simply praying and reciting words is not enough for good things to happen to us, it requires actions as well.
With a programmed outlook, issues such as Evolution that creationists regard as a human fallacy becomes a well mapped out product of God that is not done in '7 days' but in God's own time, as he wills.
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Hello everyone, I have been following the forums for a couple of days and decided to join as my beliefs are similar to those discussed here.
I want to discuss a point. Not something that many would consider important as it's completely hypothetical but I think a discussion of such nature could help us ponder about the creation.
Let's think of AI's, Artificial Intelligences, as seen in a lot of science fiction novels, films etc. It could be a computer intelligence or one with a body (preferably non-remote). Let's hypothesise that these AI's are incredibly complex, they are self aware and they are able to modify their code in order to improve themselves in a desired way. In other words, pretty much like us, humans. Now it should be obvious that such a creature is more than a machine as it is able to feel and believe; to ignore logic and to act with emotion.
Now, who created such a thing, as it could perhaps be considered even alive? Did we create it? We certainly made it, but in a certain way. Then how in the world did it become able to modify itself?
From this hypothesis, I would like to share my concept of creation. We made these AI's, but with tools. We made the tools but with different, less complex ones. And at the start, we used raw materials. That is where the distinction between making and creating lies. When making something, you use something which you did make yourself but when creating, everything you make must be made using what you made. So of course, humans are not capable of creating.
So, we made these AI's. The materials that were used to make these things were created by God. We were also created by God. So, it was actually God who created these things and we were just a tool of this creation.
Now a possible argument against this notion could be this "God gave us free will, so he does not affect our actions therefore he cannot have used us."
Yes, we have free will. We have the ability to decide our actions but only our actions. God puts us into situations, by using his creation and we decide what action we will take in the context that we are in. And as he is unbound by time, he already knows what actions we will take, it would be easy for him to nudge the reality in a way he desires by putting key people in key situations.
So to counclude my disoriented thoughts, I believe God's creation is not simply making things appear out of thin air. He uses methods so subtle that it is hard to notice that he indeed was involved. I think this is a good counter-argument against non-believers who try to disprove God and his creation by oversimplifying these ideas. I cannot claim this is true as I have no evidence based on neither Quran nor research but I also couldn't find any fundamental errors in my logic.
I'd like to hear your thoughts. If you could find any evidence supporting or disproving this, I'd be grateful.
Interesting post, I like your argument.
GOD IS RUNNING EVERYTHING!
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Nice post! I agree with you. A lot of the problems rise from people oversimplifying things. An argument I use against creationists who refuse to acknowledge evolution is also about gravity. The existence of gravity is undisputed. But God could also have made a universe where gravity did not exist, and he could make it work. Then why does gravity exist? Because it's the better, smarter solution. Same goes for the evolution. It's a magnificent system that preserves life and the balance between ecosystems.
Indeed.
Thank you. )
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Salaam,
Allegorically; God created a game, entered a few start-up parameters and left the game running. He added some hard coded plots such as Quran, prophets and all you know in religion. He is like a programmer who is sitting and watching his game in action and he will occasionally enter some commands which projects him inside the game. Like, for example add_effect light 255 add_voice God "O Moses. Here I am, but you cannot see me..." It is this way I believe it all works. God cannot be measured or grasped because He is not part of this world; he is the administrator and controlling the game world externally. But God can issue commands faster than the fastest programmer, this was just a simple kind of allegory. God needs no keyboard but just will it to happen and it happens.
God is in ultimate control of everything that happens in this world, and things here we only think they are real but it is just an illusion. If we have pain it is just imagination, like extremely realistic virtual reality. Unfortunately it is very real to us, it hurts and makes us suffer, but it is not dangerous and it does not matter if we die. It is just an illusive temporary world. We hold this life so dear while it is just a game with a ticking clock where the objective is to become aware that there is the One God and nothing called death (just realistically imagined). And there is a third objective which most fail on and that is to be a good person. When the clock rings the time is up, which event is random depending on God's complex algorithms, and it is game over and the Truth will be presented to them. Some people, a clear minority sadly enough, will already know somewhat what was going to happen, but the majority will be shocked or remorseful knowing the "fairy tales" were true.
If you share my understanding you are among the blessed people who understand "the Truth".
Take the game seriously, but always keep in mind it is just a game and an illusion. The world as you see it is just a testimony of God's ultimate creating power. Is it not advanced and very complex VR?
"The time in the game is elapsing"
Those of us who play computer games are just playing mini-games inside the game so to speak. And if we play mini-games in the computer game it feels even sillier
Oh and about the AI; it is just like running a script inside a programming language, ie in God's code. The source code is copyright God. We create something with the objects God wrote the code for, so we are still badly inferior. We can tamper with creation, but we cannot add things out of thin air so to speak. There is no "player.additem FF4321 1" console command that we humans have access to. We can only manipulate things that already exist, not create new ones. AIs and the science fiction robots, which are maybe soon reality, is not creation on God level, it is just manipulation of the materials God created. We have to face it Without God we are powerless. We would not exist or any other things. We cannot even grasp what God is, just know that He exists and know what He existed eternally. He is an external viewer and cannot be comprehended. Well, I think 'Matrix' is like a analogy on existence and perhaps a good philosophy on how it really works.
Quran was not my first step towards God but actually science and my own philosophical thinking. This is how I came to my conclusion of how it works. After that I have elaborated on these philosophies greatly.
Quran is a guide as it says and one of God's "additem Quran 1" commands. It is a narration by God and composed in a way that it takes intelligence to grasp that it is from the Creator. But if you have understood why we are here and the objectives you barely need any Quran. It is a nice reminder for you at times, but if you live like a good man or woman then you have your Message in your mind. God guides not by some illusive book which exists temporarily for this purpose but in real-time for those who have the comprehension of this.
Quran can be a curse too if you analyze it to pieces trying to extract all sorts of meanings while the fundamental Message is very easy to get from it "Be a good person!". Realize it is just a temporary illusion. Understand that there is an administrator behind it, calling Himself God to ease our ability to comprehend. Know that death was only created as part of God's rules in His plot, existence is eternal as long as God wills.
I have hesitantly adhered to this old ritual of prostration in specific patterns, but there is no real trace of this behavior in Quran. Only words that stands for being submissive or humble, or things like that. Sometimes I feel like a donkey even if I am among the more blessed people. Salat is awareness of God and a constant connection between the two of you. Prayers exist, but not the traditional way. You can talk to God like if He was there, because He will listen as if He was there because He is present everywhere. If you would like to go down on your knees physically for God it is humble and He sees it, but this is something corrupted by sectarians by added stereotypical elements.
God bless you
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I agree to nearly everything you said. There is just one part that caught my attention.
Like, for example add_effect light 255 add_voice God "O Moses. Here I am, but you cannot see me..."
I don't think God adds anything into the system at times because he is also the creator of time and is not contricted by it. He doesn't need to add anything "at time".
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Salaam,
It was just in a demonstrative purpose I gave that example to show that God only show up as an illusive projection in this "game" world. It is clear that God does not need to run some command but can just say "be" and He emerges in the world.
God bless you