Salat According to the Quran and a Critical Remark

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I know that there is no point in discussing this, but I call Shia Muslims idolaters because they take their ahl al-bayt as masters and they love them as they should love God. It is not a healthy respect for deliverers of the Message but straight worship.

The Quran is not teaching anything particularly new and is just God's Message to confirm His earlier Message and as a reminder that His Covenant is still valid still as of today. All is the so-called Al-Kitaab. The advantage with Quran is that God promised to safeguard it.

The Message is primarily a sign of God and testament to His existence. It is also a guide at the same time and can help people who understand the Message to live better lives.

As you know from the scripture; the main criteria to reach salvation is honest belief in God, eternal existence and to live as a good person. Quran teaches very well about behavior and it is its main purpose. It teaches some ways of commemorating Him. It does not teach to idolize human beings. He specifically told not to take anyone except God as master and most people do that and it is also in accordance to what He has foreseen. Because He sees everything.

God bless you

Mazhar

As you know from the scripture; the main criteria to reach salvation is honest belief in God, eternal existence and to live as a good person. Quran teaches very well about behavior and it is its main purpose. It teaches some ways of commemorating Him. It does not teach to idolize human beings.

What is conspicously absent in this opinion is the mention of the Messengers. Without honest belief in them there is no salvation ensured by Allah the Exalted. Whatever is ensured-guaranted/glad tidings, it is through the Messenger. Presently, whoever revers not the Messenger, his claim of having honest belief and love for Allah is false and lip service. Qur'aan emphasises this point quite explicitly.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I think you are out on thin ice, brother Mazhar, when you say that the Messengers require reverence. You posted a verse the other day which you claim should prove this point, but it does not say you should love Muhammad. It says if you hold the other people and things dearer to you than God and the Messenger then it means that if his Message he brought was less important than your life and family. It did not invite to revere the prophet.

You use this stuff to justify idolatry. That seems dangerous you know. And you are quite skilled at Arabic too, but you should focus a bit on the pragmatic part.

God bless you

Mazhar

Salaam,

I think you are out on thin ice, brother Mazhar, when you say that the Messengers require reverence. You posted a verse the other day which you claim should prove this point, but it does not say you should love Muhammad. It says if you hold the other people and things dearer to you than God and the Messenger then it means that if his Message he brought was less important than your life and family. It did not invite to revere the prophet.

You use this stuff to justify idolatry. That seems dangerous you know. And you are quite skilled at Arabic too, but you should focus a bit on the pragmatic part.

God bless you

The words of the Book are simple and straight forward. The comparison by a comparative noun is also between personalities and this is about love, dearness and it denotes admiration, reverence for something and person to acquire and associate with.
Minus belief in the Messengers, acceptance of their elevated stature above all others and respect and admiration there is no scope for anyone for salvation.

Reverence and the Book are both important Ponder for a while over it

hafeez_kazi

Peace brother Mazhar

Reverence and the Book are both important Ponder for a while over it

........Then those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW the light which is sent down with him they are the SUCCESSFUL 7157

I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?

QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?

I believe the messenger was so far the best person in the word in respect of character, I believe he was the mirror of the Quran, I believe he erred but never sinned. N

hafeez_kazi

Peace brother Mazhar

Quote

Reverence and the Book are both important Ponder for a while over it

........Then those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW the light which is sent down with him they are the SUCCESSFUL 7157

I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?

QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?

I believe the messenger as the best person in the word in respect of character, I believe he was the mirror of the Quran, I believe he erred but never sinned. Now tell me whether this belief of mine is a part or whole of the RESPECT.

Please define your RESPECT to the Messenger. (probably I have to failed to grasp the meaning of RESPECT)

More importantly this verse is addressed to the PEOPLE of the BOOK

Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet. Whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injil; he biddeth them to the seemly and prohibiteth unto them the unseemly, alloweth unto them things clean and forbiddeth unto them things unclean and relieveth them of their burthen and the shackles which have been upon them. SO THOSE who believe in him and side with him and succour him and follow the light which hath been sent down with him; those they shall fare well 7157

This verse was valid when the MESSENGER, THE PROPHET, THE GENTILE was ALIVE and it does not have any relation with the present believers.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Thanks

Sorry for the repeated post, it was due to some problem with my PC

faruk

Salam Pazuzu,
Befitting reply. I'm afraid it will fall on deaf ears of sectarians.

Mazhar

........Then those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW the light which is sent down with him they are the SUCCESSFUL 7157

I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?

QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?

I believe the messenger as the best person in the word in respect of character, I believe he was the mirror of the Quran, I believe he erred but never sinned. Now tell me whether this belief of mine is a part or whole of the RESPECT.

Salamun alaika,

Good thinking in line with Qur'aan.

You cannot help him!! How do you help-aid Allah the Exalted?

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I have respect for the Messengers but I treat them as Believers who were particularly blessed because of their righteousness and not like superhumans who were without sin or never erred. They were pious and God helped them become even more so and bestowed Messengership upon them. Those who share the same personality trait and are pious will be blessed and could be regarded as similar rank to Messengers.

I think we have a different view on this and I fear for you, but I will not force you to believe as I do. If you want to go as far as revere your Messenger do it but I will not be involved as I fear God.

The Messengers primary duty was to be signs of God that people may believe and not to be revered. People were told to regard, help and serve the Messenger Muhammad in the service of God. Love or what you talked is always subjective to what context it applied to. In the relevant verses I get it as to devote to it more wholeheartedly and not like a idolatrous love and nowadays these Messengers are something of the past and cannot be aided anymore. They fought their last fight already.

But love the Believers of those who are pious and love God even if they are in a clear minority and follow the Message that the Prophets left behind.

God bless you

hafeez_kazi

Peace brother Mazhar

I asked you two questions which you avoided and straight away posted me another question. Anyway I will try my level best to convince you.

Please, always give answers to questions asked by the person who is discussing with you and then continue your debate / discussion with subsequent questions. Please do not take it in a negative way as we are brothers from across the borders and moreover we are believers and discussion is nothing but an attempt to understand the Quran in a better AND LOGICAL way. There is no win or lose situation. If you are offended, then please forgive me.

Who is it that would loan Allah a goodly loan so He may multiply it for him many times over? And it is Allah who withholds and grants abundance, and to Him you will be returned 2245

Can you give a loan directly to Allah? I am sure you won?t

Indeed, the men who practice charity and the women who practice charity and have loaned Allah a goodly loan - it will be multiplied for them, and they will have a noble reward 571

The loan is metaphor; those who are engaged day and night in the cause of charities are lending a (indirect) goodly loan to Allah.

In the same way HELPING Allah is also metaphor.

They said Burn him and help your gods, if you are going to do (anything). 2168

The disbelievers helped their gods by following their beliefs (statutes) in the same way the believers HELP Allah by following HIS statutes

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, . Those are the truthful 598

The poor emigrants who believed in Allah and His Messenger were expelled from their homes with their belongings and their believing and migrating was the factor that was HELPING Allah. Anything done for his CAUSE is as good as HELPING Allah

We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might 5725

Through messengers, clear evidences, the Book, Balance (of justice / equity) , Iron ( sent down for the benefit of MANKIND) Allah will know who are His actual supporters.

Believe in the Messenger and help him when he is alive.
Believe in the Book which is sent down.
Deal justly and with equity with the people
Use the Iron for the benefit of the people.

He who violates any norms of the above, is not the supporter of Allah. And he who upholds the above norms then he has surely HELPED Allah

O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant. (61 14)

But when Jesus felt disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims . (3 52)

The disciples did not do any extraordinary thing except that they supported Jesus and that was the reason they called themselves supporters of Allah. Again those who believe (in truth) and testify that have submitted (in truth) to the will of Allah are also called the supporters of Allah.

those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. 2240

Allah does not demolish the monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques through each other (mankind) so whosoever follows HIS instructions is HELPING Allah.

If you are not convinced by my answers then please let me know how you HELP ALLAH

And my first two questions, please answer.

I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?

QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?

Please define your RESPECT to the Messenger. (Probably I have to failed to grasp the meaning of RESPECT)

Thanks

Mazhar

And my first two questions, please answer.

I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?

QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?

Please define your RESPECT to the Messenger. (Probably I have to failed to grasp the meaning of RESPECT)

There were many many believers who were not in the company or even vicinity of the Messenger in the days when he was corporeally present in the world. "To help" does not necessarily mean something physical. It is assistance in the sense of advance something; promoting the mission of somone. They were certainly helping him when they were communicating and spreading the Ayat of Qur'aan which they had listened or obtained in writing from him.

He was trying his best to remove the shackles of conjectural myths around the necks of people and to bring them to the words of the infallible book. Do it, if you can, it is your help. You follow the Qur'aan, you are helping yourself to escape the gates of hell-prison; it was his deep felt desire that you act according to Qur'aan and save yourself. Arent' you helping him to be happy?

RESPECT

It is esteem a feeling or attitude of admiration and deference toward somebody or something.

Jafar

Have anybody here ever wondered why

There's NO DETAIL INSTRUCTION ON HOW TO PRAY within the Gospel?

The only place where it mention "Praying" in the Gospel is this

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites.
For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

And when you pray, don?t babble on and on like the pagans, who think God will hear them better if they talk a lot.
Don?t be like them, because your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
You, therefore, pray like this

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

For if you forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will not forgive yours."

-- Matthew 6

No instruction on 'timing', 'pose', 'direction for praying', 'what language should be used for praying', 'who should be in the front', 'what should we do if we fart during praying' etc.. etc.. etc..

Which brings out questions

DOES ALL OF THOSE TECHNICALITIES MATTERS?
WHY WE ALL NEED TO PRAY IN THE EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER?
WHAT'S THE OBJECTIVE OF PRAYING?

Salam / Peace

cleanfox5982

Now I am looking forward to see the explanation HOW is it DONE...
Looking forward to the continuation.

Salam brother ,

2014 (Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so serve Me and establish prayer for My remembrance / Li dherkri .)

20 - 14

Notice that the word used for " remembrance al-dhikr" is the same word used to describe the quran itself

156 (And they say,"O you upon whom " The remembrance / al-dhikr" has been sent down, indeed you are mad.)

15 - 6

381 (S. By the Qur'an containing remembrance / dhikr )

38 - 1

6851 (And indeed, those who disbelieve would almost make you slip with their eyes when they hear " The remembrance / al-dhikr" , and they say, "Indeed, he is mad.)

68 - 51

So the salah has to be established to " The remembrance / al-dhikr" , how ?

2238 (Maintain with care the prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.)
2239 (And if you fear on foot or riding. But when you are secure, then remember / adhkuru Allah , as He has taught you that which you did not know)

238 - 2 -

2 - 239

Were allah has taught us how to remember / dhikr him ?

***First what is the purpose of the prostration / Sujud ( physically and intellectually )

9619 (No! Do not obey him. But prostrate and draw near .)

96 - 19

*** second What to say in prostration

5040 ( And of the night magnify Him / SabihH and after prostration.)

50 - 40

What is the wording of the magnificence / Tasbih from the qur'an

1010 (Their call ( du3A ) therein will be, " Subhanek allaahm / Magnificent are You, Allah ," and their greeting therein will be "Salam." And the last of their call will be, "Al-hamd li Allah / Praise to Allah , Lord of the worlds!&quot

In my understanding at prostration / sujud , the remembrance / dikhr mentioned is magnificence / Tasbih only and that as per 5040 ,

What is the form of physical prostration ?

1529 (And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My Ruh, then fall down / Qa3u to him in prostration.&quot

15 - 29

What is Qa3u in Arabic , it is from the 2nd root Q3 .

http//imageshack.us/a/img855/4830/746y.jpg
WuQu3 al-matar / Rain falling

1012 (And when affliction touches man, he calls upon Us, whether lying on his side or sitting / Qa3ida or standing; but when We remove from him his affliction, he continues as if he had never called upon Us to an affliction that touched him. Thus is made pleasing to the transgressors that which they have been doing)

10 - 12

856 (When they were sitting / Qu3ud near it)

85 - 6

20105 (And they ask you about the mountains, so say, "My Lord will blow them away with a blast.)
20106 (He will leave them as plains (Qaa3a) smooth and level)

20 - /106/105

al-Qaa3 is the plain , the foundation or the base of something plural Qi3an and Qwua3d.

2439 (But those who disbelieved - their deeds are like a mirage in a lowland ( Baqi3ah) which a thirsty one thinks is water until, when he comes to it, he finds it is nothing but finds Allah before Him, and He will pay him in full his due; and Allah is swift in account.)

24 - 39

http//imageshack.us/a/img708/532/nc1w.jpg
A plain or low land where the mirage is formed , this land is called Qi3ah as it is a lower or at the bottom of the land

So Qa3u in 1529 mean to fall down till the plain ground

The shadows of all things and creatures are prostrating , how ?

1648 (Have they not considered what things Allah has created? Their shadows incline to the right and to the left, prostrating to Allah , while they are humble.)

16 - 48

1648 (And to Allah prostrates whoever is within the heavens and the earth, willingly or by compulsion, and their shadows in the mornings and the afternoons.)

13 - 15

What is the connection between the shadows and the physical prostration ?

2545 (Have you not considered your Lord - how He extends the shadow, and if He willed, He could have made it stationary? Then We made the sun for it an indication.)

25 - 45

http//imageshack.us/a/img811/2807/2tgc.jpg
The shadow of a dune extending , making prostration ( sujud ) to allah

what is the purpose of the prostration / Sujud ( physically and intellectually )

9619 (No! Do not obey him. But prostrate and draw near .)

96 - 19

While standing as per 399 , below are remembrance / dikhr from the qur'an about what to say

chapter 1 chapter 114 , chapter 112 , chapter 113 ,

These are verses about what to say and if we search we find more , these are some examples

10 - 10
41 - 30
3 - 26
5 - 114
8 - 32
10 - 10
39 - 46
2 - 127
2 - 128
2 - 129
2 - 139
2 - 200
2 - 201
2 - 250
2 - 285
2 - 286
3 - 7
3 - 8
3 - 9
3 - 16
3 - 53
3 - 147
3 - 191
3 - 192
3 - 193
3 - 194
4 - 75
7 - 23
7 - 43
7 - 47
7 - 89
7 - 125
7 - 126
7 - 149
10 - 85
14 - 37
14 - 38
14 - 40
14 - 41
17 - 108
18 - 10
18 - 14
20 - 45
20 - 50
22 - 40
23 - 109
25 - 65
25 - 74
26 - 50
26 - 51
28 - 53
34 - 26
35 - 34
40 - 8
42 - 15
46 - 13
59 - 10
60 - 4
60 - 5
66 - 8
68 - 29
68 - 32
72 - 3

GODsubmitter

So it is similar to the ritual as taught by the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa PhD?

http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/howtoperformsalat.html

Thanx

GODsubmitter

Pity that the guy who started this thread hasn't returned...

yet...

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I think he is with his Arab experts at the academy.

God bless you

dnagroupsa

I am not sure what language namaz is in.... but i am quite sure it is not arabic.
The arabs also pray the ritual salah and therefore i dont think it could be invented by another people who speak another tongue but could have been adopted by them and given the name namaz of which you speak.

The story of Buraq was invented by arabs themselves so i am not sure how you reconcile the two.

Fusion

I am new on here and I have been reading posts and trying to familiarise myself the topics of discussion.
I am really surprised as to the length of this thread and the contents... i mean it started with a simple discussion of how people who only takes Quran will be able to implement the Salat as per the instructions of Quran. If you guys cant agree on this matter and have so less tolerance then how could we blame those who follow hadiths, at least they have some sort of agreed upon base line over centuries, for prayer instructions? I mean they have process on how to pray, they have concept of mosques, then have friday prayer(where one post here claims no friday prayer) and they have the concept of ruku with those who ruku (similar to group salat)

While I was under the impression that God left it on us to pray as we like as long as it has the elements of qayam, ruko and sujod and the fact of prescribed times.

Cheers

Man_of_Faith

The reason people cannot agree upon anything is because they dispute about conjecture.

Be faithful to the Rabb

sword_of_tashayyu

From using Ahadith to interpret Quran, you are relying on man-made 21st dictionaries to interpret the Quran. Bravo! bravo