men are better than women according to drfazl
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See, this is what I hate about men and yes I said hate eskimo. They abuse women to the limits - they still are abusing women and when we stand up for rights all of a sudden it becomes an emotion or it becomes standing up for the man - we had enough about women! Its like the hunter saying to the animal it killed, why are you bad to me? twisted
I don't have time to read those articles supporting polygamy and all that crap, but eskimo if you have sooooooooooo many problems with women, why do you want 4 of 'em?
Anyway, have fun with your 4 wives and of course dominating them, leading them and secretly hating them and again on the other side arguing to wanting four of them wink
PEace,
Dell1 I'm going to pick on you, because quite frankly you deserve it.
How about you calm down and actually try and comprehend what is being written.
It honestly does not take much effort to understand what is being said/typed.
You want to take feminism to the extreme?
I remind you that in Islam that too much and too little is wrong, that muslims have to find the middle.
Yes I'm all for female rights, but there is a degree that cannot be surpassed (same with male rights).
But you have already decided that all men are pigs (as is QUITE EVIDENT by your lack of reasoning).
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But you have already decided that all men are pigs (as is QUITE EVIDENT by your lack of reasoning).
Ouch! Have I? That includes my dad? I've never said one bad thing to my dad and now all of a sudden he's a pig? I think not. Nor did I say any man's a pig. Don't put words in my mouth. 80% of my best friends are men.
If you insist I could pick on ya, 'cause you frankly derserve it ...but I'll keep my standard high and walk away. I think its your lack of reasoning to make conclusions about me. First of, I wasn't even conversing with you, it was idolfree1.
Btw, this isn't bothering me. I've only made a handful of posts while you are searching the web for articles and all and making lenghty posts with bold fonts and anger at your mumy
Anyhoo, I'll leave you in peace with your masculanism. I have to go home and start packing. Hopefull I'll see ya all in 2005 if not b4.
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Peace brother Kyle,
Well, the truth is that is what we are trying to do, gain control. Unfortunately the sister does not understand what I am saying because she is ANGRY at the position women have been put in after years of oppression. But ANGER, nor ANY EMOTION except PEACE can bring us the answer.
I agree!
All of this SCIENCE is very old, the Egyptains followed it, the Greeks, the Jews and thier Kabala system, the Hindus, the Chinese philosphy and much of this is shown through movies like Star Wars, Matrix, I robot, A beautiful Mind, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, etc.
This reading(quran) is teaching us the same thing, but we have to be at peace so we can understand.
Understand u perfectly...
All I am trying to show is the NATURAL ORDER of things. In ancinte Egypt, this was understood, but had sister Dell allowed me to finish, the women were QUEENS! It was the western nations that came in and did not like thier women getting so much power, so they OVERCOMPENSATED when trying to opress them. It is there in recorded history, or we can see the signs in todays reality.
I agree again, many societies did not have a problem with women being given power...I would be interested in hearing some examples by you as you definitely have done your research here...it is quite an interesting topic...
To everyone else in case you didn't already know, Kyle/Idolfree1 has been championing the feminine principle and women's rights in many a machoistic (is that a word?) discussion here for which I respect him immensely...way to go bro! Btw Kyle, I am off for my vacation and will respond to any posts after the new year! Have a great new year (in case you don't celebrate it, still have a good one) and i wish you peace!
Nadia
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Peace to all the good women and men on this forum,
We are ONE. Our souls are ONE. This is just a worldy life, its all game and play. Who rules who....who's stronger than who...who's better than who...who's like a beast are all tricks developed by the devil to destroy our family. And look how much success he has gotten so far!
Tell My servants to treat each other in the best possible manner, for the devil will always try to drive a wedge among them. Surely, the devil is man's most ardent enemy.
The believing men and women are allies of one another. They advocate righteousness and forbid evil, they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they obey GOD and His messenger. These will be showered by GOD's mercy. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
God calls the believing men and women allies of each other both of which can do the EXACT same jobs which actually count in the eyes of God such as prayer and charity. God did not call one the master, the other the slave.
He will certainly admit the believing men and women into gardens with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever. He will remit their sins. This is, in the sight of GOD, a great triumph.
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Salaam All,
I agree! idolfree1 and esimsek are not saying the same thing.
idolfree is speaking about the natural interaction of the two creative energies .
esimsek it seems is trying to come to terms with control issues and disappointing relationships, meanwhile he keeps equating human beings to animals.
Male/Female relationships are not simply about "sex" and "survival of the fittest". What happened to the spiritual aspects? Where is the "Divine Union"?If I may add a little to idolfree1's discussion lol We have Ausar and Auset... the Divine Man and Divine Woman. The heiroglyphs for these two are very revealing in terms of their natural roles. The pictograph for Ausar is a man holding the crook and flail, while Auset is a throne/seat. A western mind may jump to the conclusion that because Ausar sits on the throne that gives him a superior position, however they would be wrong. Auset as the throne is the seat of power, the "true" force and power of any kingdom, she allows the king to use her power, she supports the king with her power. The king is, in fact, a servant to the power of the Queen. That is why the man is physically stronger, so that he may defend the power of the queen.
Still... why does Ausar hold the crook and flail? because man is fiery in nature tends to be more dynamic and external with the use of his energy , the crook and flail are symbols of a good kings ability to subdue his passions , so that he could be a good shepherd of his people .
Let us examine another aspect. In many of the ancient cultures the seers/oracles were women. Why is this? As idolfree1 and savage carrot have pointed out... a mind of peace/stillness is essential for inspiration/revelation. A woman's energy according to the concept of yin and yang is more passive/watery, whereas man is dynamic/fiery. Which is more easily brought to a level of stllness? Which is mre conducive for the stillness to receive inspiration/revelation. Please do not point out that all the stories of the prophets are about men because until the lion learns to write all the stories favor the hunter. Hmmmm.
These are just some points to think about in this discussion.
Also... Sister Nadia... you have examples of Ahmes Nefertari, and Hatshepsut in the Kamitic culture. Ahmes Nefertari was a Queen/Mother who actually led the Kamitic armies with her brother to regain the Kamitic throne from foreign invaders . Hatshepsut actually was a Pharoah, but her name was stricken from most of the history books because the patriarchy that Kemet became couldn't handle the fact that one of their most powerful and influential Pharoahs was a woman. The name Candace is actually a derivative of Kentake, which was the title given to Queens in Ghana, Nzinga who was another well known warrior-Queen was the most famous . There are many more instances throughout the history of humanity.
Patriarchy has not always been the case, and one could make a good argument that civilizations under patriarchy have been much less stable then those that were matriarchal.
Anyway... you all can think about these points, and at the same time remember... if we don't come to terms with our natural dependence upon each other and stop this silly battle of the sexes... there will be no... "making love". lol
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanyaP.S. idolfree1... how far is where you live in PA from Stroudsburg?
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Peace,
It's evident that some people have bad short term memories, so I"ll just quote from some of my posts.
I am in NO way saying that men are better than women.
I am in NO way saying that women should be the slaves of men.
Now I am also defnitely NOT saying that I know the roles for both men and women, but I am merely saying that each s.ex has their specific strengths and weaknesses (in a naturalistic sense) and that these things should be taken into consideration.
Anyways back to my original point, in trying to determine or explain such things do not forget our natural instincts, do not forget who we are. Many evolutionary concepts link exteremly well with Quranic concepts.
Dead, blunt, and simple, we (humans) have to learn to accept some of our natural tendencies.
And NO some of those natural tendencies are not compatible to both s.exes.
We completely ignore who we are and we get chaos and destruction. Why? Because we are not at PEACE with ourselves, we fail to UNDERSTAND ourselves.
That was but a simple example, but as I said people should consider our natural instincts before coming to a conclusion. We have to understand WHO/WHAT we are!!!!!!!
esimsek it seems is trying to come to terms with control issues and disappointing relationships, meanwhile he keeps equating human beings to animals.
Control issues and dissappoingintg relationships????
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
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Salaam Esimsek,
Simple example, not to kill. Naturally it is our instinct to dominate and thus killing may eventuate. Religiously we are told not to kill but live in harmony.
Benefits of restricting our instinct to kill each other (survival of the fittest)-
*Society developed, less chance of being killed, more chance of surviving, etc, etc.
That was but a simple example, but as I said people should consider our natural instincts before coming to a conclusion. We have to understand WHO/WHAT we are!!!!!!!
Killing is not an instinct. It is a desire, unless for self-defence.
Is it an instinct in a human male to have multiple partners or is it a desire?A desire (Hawaa/Ahwaaa? in Arabic) usually and easily becomes an obsession because the satisfaction that one gets from a desire is very short lived so the individual constantly feels the urge to repeat the act. That is why forbidding some (most) desires is crucial in Islam. Drinking Alcohol is one example.
In your quote above, assuming that killing is an instinct, you clearly gave us an example of how some instincts should be forbidden i.e. killing. If Allah has clearly forbidden the killing (an instinct according to you), do you think that Allah would allow having multiple partners, which is also an instinct according to you?
Having multiple partners is not an instinct. It is a desire the same way killing is.
Allah does not forbid instincts. Allah forbids desires. Allah teaches us how to discipline ourselves and control our instincts while forbidding the blinding and damaging desires. It is Satan?s job to confuse us and convince us that desires are instincts when they are certainly not.
The Quran is against multiple partners practice. There is not one Ayah in the Quran that supports that. Prophet Muhammad (P&PBUH) is an exception of course. Maybe those who cannot read Arabic had to follow what the translators deliver to them, but those who read and understand Arabic perfectly, I would like them to look again in the Quran and to try to find one proof that Allah supports such a practice. They won?t find any.
Taj
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Salam all,
To Olusanya Just wanted to tell you I (generally) really like your posts. BTW, what does your name mean ?
To Esimsek
On another note, I'm sure you have a group of friends, and I ask that you just sit and watch them. Just sit and watch, watch who leads the conversations, watch who decideds where to go out, watch who decides what to eat. If you are in a western country then most likely it will be a female who leads the group. But I hear you ask me "Why?"!!!!!!!!
Yes, I have a group of friends, but we usually discuss about what we do, and no, it's not the "leading animal" , be it male or female, that decides for the others. But true, as I don't like leading animals, I don't have so many friends.
What does BS mean ?
See I hate this about women.
Dear Esimsek, would you please stop generalising ?
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You seem to reject western upbringing. I hope this is not why you came to islam! Just to make you understand that all you say can be turned around and that there is always more than one way to see things I'm a western woman who married an arab (and no, I was a muslim before I met him, sorry, am not a follower, can't pretend to be a leader either, but I am a free person, to the extent possible!) . While we lived in Europe, we had a good life and relation, both working in and out of the house. As soon as we came here, he changed, started having affairs and assigned me to the house saying this is a man's country, I can do what I want here, but not you...!" I'm not into this so I wanted out but I couldn't even get a divorce, at that time only the man could ...Finally, he let me go, but kept my children - this was the deal. Now I'm stuck in this country cause I want my kids to grow up with both parents. You see , I could really go nuts about what "I hate about men" aso...but that's just not the point!
We completely ignore who we are and we get chaos and destruction. Why? Because we are not at PEACE with ourselves, we fail to UNDERSTAND ourselves.
That's exactely to the point and very true for you, as it was for me some time ago. May be it's age and experience (I'm 39 and the dating game is quite behind me ) , but you have to work on yourself first. You'll not change society anyway.
Bye, Elke
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As'Salaam Elke, All,
To Olusanya Just wanted to tell you I (generally) really like your posts. BTW, what does your name mean ?
Thank you! My mouth usually gets me into trouble because I prefer to speak from the heart first, the intellect second, sometimes they are, actually, in agreement. In this case they agree 100%. lol
Olu'sanya means - God compensates for suffering/God rewards sacrifice.Finally, he let me go, but kept my children - this was the deal. Now I'm stuck in this country cause I want my kids to grow up with both parents. You see , I could really go nuts about what "I hate about men" aso...but that's just not the point!
This is just my personal opinion, a real man... a good man would never separate children from their mother unless she posed a danger to them. As it has been pointed out by a couple of people in this thread, there are differences in our nature and one of them is the capacity to nourish.
I think you have demonstrated great strength in removing yourself from an unhealthy relationship, and a profound commitment to your children, enabling them to continue to grow with their mother present in their lives. At the same time, you have not allowed this experience to tarnishyour view of men.
I'm a little in awe right now! shockWe completely ignore who we are and we get chaos and destruction. Why? Because we are not at PEACE with ourselves, we fail to UNDERSTAND ourselves.
I often tell friends, "If you are not comfortable being alone, then you will not be comfortable in a relationship. You have not found the balance within yourself that brings the internal peace that we shold be extending to each other in our external relationships.
To Esimsek
I'm glad your humor extends both ways. I was being a little sarcastic because I recognized that in some of your comments you seemed to be trying to push the sister's buttons.
Keep in mind though... the whole alpha male analogy is a control issue. The reason may be survival, but the issue remains control.Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya -
Peace..
about the word ?wadribu" in 434, i have read the footnote in
AL-QUR?AN a contemporary translation, by Ahmed Ali (1984)it says that
?wadribu , in the original, translated here ?have intercourse? ? see Raghib, Lisan al-?Arab and ?. daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quote the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, ?the stud camel covered the she-camel,? which is also quoted by Lisan al-?Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean ?to strike them (women).?"so what do you guys think?
salam.
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Salam All,
to Olusanya who said
This is just my personal opinion, a real man... a good man would never separate children from their mother unless she posed a danger to them. As it has been pointed out by a couple of people in this thread, there are differences in our nature and one of them is the capacity to nourish.
I think you have demonstrated great strength in removing yourself from an unhealthy relationship, and a profound commitment to your children, enabling them to continue to grow with their mother present in their lives. At the same time, you have not allowed this experience to tarnishyour view of men.
I'm a little in awe right now!Don't be cos after posting my post I regretted. If (yes) my ex was no good husband to me it doesn't mean he's a bad man. He's actually a good father and anyhow if a couple doesn't work out, there are always two to blame...even if it was just for being blind and chosing an incompatible partner. Right now, we share our children and at least we seem to have managed a good divorce. roll
You also said something about mothers being a danger to children...I'm sure I'm not a danger to my kids, on the contrary lol But I sure am a very unconformistic mother, especially in the society I live in (traditional islamic bourgeoisie). In that view my ex may still think that I am dangerous... lol
Anyway, as far as I remember, even in coran, starting from a certain age (I think seven) children are supposed to live with the father, may be because from that age on, they need a little less nourishment and some more of a framing authority.
idea Could one of those possessing a browser (or simply the knowledge) please search for this verse and give me the references (even though the thread is not right) ? Thanks in advance,
Elke
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Salaams Elke,
Anyway, as far as I remember, even in coran, starting from a certain age (I think seven) children are supposed to live with the father, may be because from that age on, they need a little less nourishment and some more of a framing authority.
Could one of those possessing a browser (or simply the knowledge) please search for this verse and give me the references (even though the thread is not right) ? Thanks in advance,
Elke
Those A7kam (sharee3ah laws) are taken from the Hadeeth as far as I know. I never read anything of the sort in the Quran. What I recall the Quran saying is that a child should not be taken from his/her mother, but it doesn't specify till what age. Different sects differ in their laws in the age part. The Shiite sect would rule to take the children at an earlier age than the Sunnis, maybe around seven, I am not so sure. The Sunnis rule that the children can stay with their mother as long as she stays unmarried. Once she decides to get married then her ex has the right to take his children from her to stay with him, and it doesn't matter whether he has remarried or not.
Taj
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
I agree again, many societies did not have a problem with women being given power...I would be interested in hearing some examples by you as you definitely have done your research here...it is quite an interesting topic...
Thank you sister, I will try to gather more information that we can share under a more properly TITLED thread. Please have patience with me on this.
To everyone else in case you didn't already know, Kyle/Idolfree1 has been championing the feminine principle and women's rights in many a machoistic (is that a word?) discussion here for which I respect him immensely...way to go bro! Btw Kyle, I am off for my vacation and will respond to any posts after the new year! Have a great new year (in case you don't celebrate it, still have a good one) and i wish you peace!
Only thing I turly "celebrate" is Life itself D But thank you for the positive wishings (if that is a word) D
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Peace be upon you Olusanya!
EXCELLENT POST (regarding the Kemetic philosohpy)! We need more of this so that we can see the CONNECTION. YOu should have seen the big smile I had on my face while reading that post.
idolfree1... how far is where you live in PA from Stroudsburg?
Not quite sure, I don't think more than 1 or two hours away. I am in Philadelphia (but I guess you already know that) D