men are better than women according to drfazl
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Salam all,
To Olusanya Just wanted to tell you I (generally) really like your posts. BTW, what does your name mean ?
To Esimsek
On another note, I'm sure you have a group of friends, and I ask that you just sit and watch them. Just sit and watch, watch who leads the conversations, watch who decideds where to go out, watch who decides what to eat. If you are in a western country then most likely it will be a female who leads the group. But I hear you ask me "Why?"!!!!!!!!
Yes, I have a group of friends, but we usually discuss about what we do, and no, it's not the "leading animal" , be it male or female, that decides for the others. But true, as I don't like leading animals, I don't have so many friends.
What does BS mean ?
See I hate this about women.
Dear Esimsek, would you please stop generalising ?
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You seem to reject western upbringing. I hope this is not why you came to islam! Just to make you understand that all you say can be turned around and that there is always more than one way to see things I'm a western woman who married an arab (and no, I was a muslim before I met him, sorry, am not a follower, can't pretend to be a leader either, but I am a free person, to the extent possible!) . While we lived in Europe, we had a good life and relation, both working in and out of the house. As soon as we came here, he changed, started having affairs and assigned me to the house saying this is a man's country, I can do what I want here, but not you...!" I'm not into this so I wanted out but I couldn't even get a divorce, at that time only the man could ...Finally, he let me go, but kept my children - this was the deal. Now I'm stuck in this country cause I want my kids to grow up with both parents. You see , I could really go nuts about what "I hate about men" aso...but that's just not the point!
We completely ignore who we are and we get chaos and destruction. Why? Because we are not at PEACE with ourselves, we fail to UNDERSTAND ourselves.
That's exactely to the point and very true for you, as it was for me some time ago. May be it's age and experience (I'm 39 and the dating game is quite behind me ) , but you have to work on yourself first. You'll not change society anyway.
Bye, Elke
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As'Salaam Elke, All,
To Olusanya Just wanted to tell you I (generally) really like your posts. BTW, what does your name mean ?
Thank you! My mouth usually gets me into trouble because I prefer to speak from the heart first, the intellect second, sometimes they are, actually, in agreement. In this case they agree 100%. lol
Olu'sanya means - God compensates for suffering/God rewards sacrifice.Finally, he let me go, but kept my children - this was the deal. Now I'm stuck in this country cause I want my kids to grow up with both parents. You see , I could really go nuts about what "I hate about men" aso...but that's just not the point!
This is just my personal opinion, a real man... a good man would never separate children from their mother unless she posed a danger to them. As it has been pointed out by a couple of people in this thread, there are differences in our nature and one of them is the capacity to nourish.
I think you have demonstrated great strength in removing yourself from an unhealthy relationship, and a profound commitment to your children, enabling them to continue to grow with their mother present in their lives. At the same time, you have not allowed this experience to tarnishyour view of men.
I'm a little in awe right now! shockWe completely ignore who we are and we get chaos and destruction. Why? Because we are not at PEACE with ourselves, we fail to UNDERSTAND ourselves.
I often tell friends, "If you are not comfortable being alone, then you will not be comfortable in a relationship. You have not found the balance within yourself that brings the internal peace that we shold be extending to each other in our external relationships.
To Esimsek
I'm glad your humor extends both ways. I was being a little sarcastic because I recognized that in some of your comments you seemed to be trying to push the sister's buttons.
Keep in mind though... the whole alpha male analogy is a control issue. The reason may be survival, but the issue remains control.Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya -
Peace..
about the word ?wadribu" in 434, i have read the footnote in
AL-QUR?AN a contemporary translation, by Ahmed Ali (1984)it says that
?wadribu , in the original, translated here ?have intercourse? ? see Raghib, Lisan al-?Arab and ?. daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quote the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, ?the stud camel covered the she-camel,? which is also quoted by Lisan al-?Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean ?to strike them (women).?"so what do you guys think?
salam.
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Salam All,
to Olusanya who said
This is just my personal opinion, a real man... a good man would never separate children from their mother unless she posed a danger to them. As it has been pointed out by a couple of people in this thread, there are differences in our nature and one of them is the capacity to nourish.
I think you have demonstrated great strength in removing yourself from an unhealthy relationship, and a profound commitment to your children, enabling them to continue to grow with their mother present in their lives. At the same time, you have not allowed this experience to tarnishyour view of men.
I'm a little in awe right now!Don't be cos after posting my post I regretted. If (yes) my ex was no good husband to me it doesn't mean he's a bad man. He's actually a good father and anyhow if a couple doesn't work out, there are always two to blame...even if it was just for being blind and chosing an incompatible partner. Right now, we share our children and at least we seem to have managed a good divorce. roll
You also said something about mothers being a danger to children...I'm sure I'm not a danger to my kids, on the contrary lol But I sure am a very unconformistic mother, especially in the society I live in (traditional islamic bourgeoisie). In that view my ex may still think that I am dangerous... lol
Anyway, as far as I remember, even in coran, starting from a certain age (I think seven) children are supposed to live with the father, may be because from that age on, they need a little less nourishment and some more of a framing authority.
idea Could one of those possessing a browser (or simply the knowledge) please search for this verse and give me the references (even though the thread is not right) ? Thanks in advance,
Elke
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Salaams Elke,
Anyway, as far as I remember, even in coran, starting from a certain age (I think seven) children are supposed to live with the father, may be because from that age on, they need a little less nourishment and some more of a framing authority.
Could one of those possessing a browser (or simply the knowledge) please search for this verse and give me the references (even though the thread is not right) ? Thanks in advance,
Elke
Those A7kam (sharee3ah laws) are taken from the Hadeeth as far as I know. I never read anything of the sort in the Quran. What I recall the Quran saying is that a child should not be taken from his/her mother, but it doesn't specify till what age. Different sects differ in their laws in the age part. The Shiite sect would rule to take the children at an earlier age than the Sunnis, maybe around seven, I am not so sure. The Sunnis rule that the children can stay with their mother as long as she stays unmarried. Once she decides to get married then her ex has the right to take his children from her to stay with him, and it doesn't matter whether he has remarried or not.
Taj
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
I agree again, many societies did not have a problem with women being given power...I would be interested in hearing some examples by you as you definitely have done your research here...it is quite an interesting topic...
Thank you sister, I will try to gather more information that we can share under a more properly TITLED thread. Please have patience with me on this.
To everyone else in case you didn't already know, Kyle/Idolfree1 has been championing the feminine principle and women's rights in many a machoistic (is that a word?) discussion here for which I respect him immensely...way to go bro! Btw Kyle, I am off for my vacation and will respond to any posts after the new year! Have a great new year (in case you don't celebrate it, still have a good one) and i wish you peace!
Only thing I turly "celebrate" is Life itself D But thank you for the positive wishings (if that is a word) D
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Peace be upon you Olusanya!
EXCELLENT POST (regarding the Kemetic philosohpy)! We need more of this so that we can see the CONNECTION. YOu should have seen the big smile I had on my face while reading that post.
idolfree1... how far is where you live in PA from Stroudsburg?
Not quite sure, I don't think more than 1 or two hours away. I am in Philadelphia (but I guess you already know that) D
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Salaam all,
Killing is not an instinct. It is a desire, unless for self-defence.
I'm sorry, but you seem to be speaking about killing in a modern sense, I'm speaking killing in a caveman sense, when survival of the fittest was at the forefront.
"Killing" has also evolved with the times. I believe that now it has different forms. Take for example slave/child labour in India, China, Asia by multi-BILLION dollar companies such as Reebok and Nike. Oppression of freedom of speech, oppression of states by other states. These are forms of killing in today's modern society.
Capitalism excels on the premise of survival of the fittest (i.e KILLING), we KILL off the competition.
But back to cave man standards, killing for food, killing when your life is under threat. Killing is part of our instinct.
A desire (Hawaa/Ahwaaa? in Arabic) usually and easily becomes an obsession because the satisfaction that one gets from a desire is very short lived so the individual constantly feels the urge to repeat the act. That is why forbidding some (most) desires is crucial in Islam. Drinking Alcohol is one example.
I'm sorry but I do not believe that alcohol is forbidden, to me that is purely a hadith lie. Note that the Quran uses intoxication thus including aneasthetic used in operations.
In your quote above, assuming that killing is an instinct, you clearly gave us an example of how some instincts should be forbidden i.e. killing. If Allah has clearly forbidden the killing (an instinct according to you), do you think that Allah would allow having multiple partners, which is also an instinct according to you?
And as I have said before I am still trying to answer this question. By raising my questions here I hope to hear ideas/notions that I may not have thought of, that I will take under consideration and with my god given reasoning, judge them.
Having multiple partners is not an instinct. It is a desire the same way killing is.
To me it sounds like you've only taken a look at one side of the scale. Have you even considered the naturalistic/evolutionary side of the argument?
The Quran is against multiple partners practice. There is not one Ayah in the Quran that supports that. Prophet Muhammad (P&PBUH) is an exception of course. Maybe those who cannot read Arabic had to follow what the translators deliver to them, but those who read and understand Arabic perfectly, I would like them to look again in the Quran and to try to find one proof that Allah supports such a practice. They won?t find any.
TAJ read through the posts again, no one (me included) has ever said that the Quran allows mutliple partners. I'm merely putting another point of view across, although not Quranic it still should be taken into consideration
Yes, I have a group of friends, but we usually discuss about what we do, and no, it's not the "leading animal" , be it male or female, that decides for the others. But true, as I don't like leading animals, I don't have so many friends.
Elke, please just sit and watch. Watch very carefully, human interactions have not changed as much as we have believed it to change.
By the way BS means bullsh*t.
Dear Esimsek, would you please stop generalising ?
I maybe generalising but even here from my peaceful sisters who (when it comes to other topics) consider other sides of the argument. However, when it comes to this certain topic I am immediately told of stories of wrongful husbands or whatnot. Messages of women being abused by men in the past is brought up.
I don't want to lead the world back to the days of emotive and physical abuse of females. Rather what I'm saying is that males are now the ones who are receiving the abuse. I'm saying that we have to understand the female and male personas so that we can reach an equilibrium.
You seem to reject western upbringing.
No, not at all.
That's exactely to the point and very true for you, as it was for me some time ago. May be it's age and experience (I'm 39 and the dating game is quite behind me , but you have to work on yourself first. You'll not change society anyway.
My dear Elke, it hurts me. Each time I see it, it makes a deep imprint into my heart the way females treat males, the way it's a continual abyss of lack of confidence, for men. Men sell themselves for a very, very cheap price.
Man or woman should not have to sell themselves, as I said there should be an equilibrium!
I often tell friends, "If you are not comfortable being alone, then you will not be comfortable in a relationship. You have not found the balance within yourself that brings the internal peace that we shold be extending to each other in our external relationships.
It's the ability to say and believe, "I am happy with myself".
I'm glad your humor extends both ways. I was being a little sarcastic because I recognized that in some of your comments you seemed to be trying to push the sister's buttons.
Keep in mind though... the whole alpha male analogy is a control issue. The reason may be survival, but the issue remains control.How can you go through life without humour??????????????
You'd go insane if you couldn't laugh at the world's problems.
I forget which movie it was but there was something along the lines of, "All you can do is laugh death in the face".
As far as the alpha male analogy being a control issue, yes probably, but as I said I'm still trying to work out if I believe in the naturalistic explanation of human interactions.
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Salam Esimsek, All
Elke, please just sit and watch. Watch very carefully, human interactions have not changed as much as we have believed it to change.
I don't say that you're not right "in general". I just "hate" it when I hear generalities said as if they were universalities.
BTW, there's a verse in coran saying that the ugliest voice is the donkeys voice, which sounds for me like the voice of those always willing to make the decisions for everybody....ok now I'm pushing it lolMan or woman should not have to sell themselves, as I said there should be an equilibrium!
I completely agree with you. Equality still is way apart - but I mean in both ways. People should be seen as persons, individuals before being seen as wo- or man. This would make life much easier.
It's the ability to say and believe, "I am happy with myself".
Yes, agree, but careful of not being too happy with yourself, makes me think of "people walking proudly on earth". I'd rather call it "working on being at peace with yourself". Talk about a lifetime of work...Bye, Elke