Gay and Muslim?

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Does this ayat have clear distinguishment on sexual morality or is there any ambiguity in it?

"Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Salam

781 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

Homosexuality refers to same-sex attraction. 781 refers to an action--"approaching the men". Also, look at the preceding verse.

780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"

Homosexuality and homosexual actions long predate the people of Lot. Could it be, perhaps, that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression? ) In this case, 781 can be understood to say that the lust is the transgression, and it is compounded by the fact that it is on the same sex.

This is my understanding.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

Abdul-Hadi

huruf

I doubt that that was the first time sodomy was practised and he general picture I get when I read about the people of Lut is that they were wholesale transgressors, not merely because discreetly they engaged in some kind of same sex intimacy. Lut addresses people not telling them to keep to their wives or seek honest marriage or any of the many injunctions that we see in the Qur'an inviting to righteousness. When a prophet addresses collectively a people it is calling them out for outright and public malfaisance, plotting or something that calls for public condemnation, not for a private sin, because when it is done so it is done in general. So that they went after men and not after women makes it look brazen and ganglike and I do not get either that the fact of doing that to women was good or positive, but that the male part makes it more roguish and bestial, vile vice. If the Qur'an meant to prohibit that it might have said, as for everything else, forbiden is to you to lust after persons of the same sex. May be because lusting after something is unforbiddable, in the sense that you can lust, but provided you do nto act on your lusts nothing is lost. But the thing is that the Qur'an as far as I have seen does not foresee any marital relationship between persons of the same sex, but doe snto state such a thing explicitly, like saying and their will be a horrible punishment in this life or the next, like it says when something is horrible and wicked.

So, it is clear that the guidance is to establish a relationship of honest marriage. We should take the guidance but not go where God has not wanted to go and pry on the intimace of people who may have its personal and private conditions and make of them a public business for busybodies.

I do not consider either that parading one's own sexuality is something to be commended. One should keep that for friends if one needs to confide or for professional helpers committed to such help.

Salaam

drfazl

Greetings and Peace, all group

Homosexuality and homosexual actions long predate the people of Lot. Could it be, perhaps, that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression? In this case, 781 can be understood to say that the lust is the transgression, and it is compounded by the fact that it is on the same sex.

This is my understanding.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

Abdul-Hadi

Peace Hadi,

What is your opinion suppose I consider this and withdraw as an onlooker visiting this scene as your confrontation against the Prophet Lut and witness this as your argument directed at Lut s.a.w. considering you as one among the gang of people that thronged the house of The Prophet to insult the Malayika, the honourable visitors?

What is your opinion to this ayat with regard to surrender and obedience?

3336
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and Lut have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Lut, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

Faithfully to Allah.

drfazl

I doubt that that was the first time sodomy was practised and he general picture I get when I read about the people of Lut is that they were wholesale transgressors, not merely because discreetly they engaged in some kind of same sex intimacy. Lut addresses people not telling them to keep to their wives or seek honest marriage or any of the many injunctions that we see in the Qur'an inviting to righteousness. When a prophet addresses collectively a people it is calling them out for outright and public malfaisance, plotting or something that calls for public condemnation, not for a private sin, because when it is done so it is done in general. So that they went after men and not after women makes it look brazen and ganglike and I do not get either that the fact of doing that to women was good or positive, but that the male part makes it more roguish and bestial, vile vice. If the Qur'an meant to prohibit that it might have said, as for everything else, forbiden is to you to lust after persons of the same sex. May be because lusting after something is unforbiddable, in the sense that you can lust, but provided you do nto act on your lusts nothing is lost. But the thing is that the Qur'an as far as I have seen does not foresee any marital relationship between persons of the same sex, but doe snto state such a thing explicitly, like saying and their will be a horrible punishment in this life or the next, like it says when something is horrible and wicked.

So, it is clear that the guidance is to establish a relationship of honest marriage. We should take the guidance but not go where God has not wanted to go and pry on the intimace of people who may have its personal and private conditions and make of them a public business for busybodies.

I do not consider either that parading one's own sexuality is something to be commended. One should keep that for friends if one needs to confide or for professional helpers committed to such help.

Salaam

Sane enough!

Peace

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Bold emphasis added to quote, my comments in red.

Peace Hadi,

What is your opinion suppose I consider this and withdraw as an onlooker visiting this scene as your confrontation against the Prophet Lut and witness this as your argument directed at Lut s.a.w. considering you as one among the gang of people that thronged the house of The Prophet to insult the Malayika, the honourable visitors?

What is your opinion to this ayat with regard to surrender and obedience?

My opinion is that the above is an ad hominem attack.

3336
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and Lut have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Lut, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

My opinion is that this is NOT what the verse says, and that it is unlawful to change a verse. Although Lot/Lut was a Messenger (Peace upon them all) the verse states Messenger--not Lot.

I also opine that I was not a witness to the above, but accept AQ as truth.

My further opinion is that I have no time for ad hominem attacks and will place on "ignore" repeat violators.

Faithfully to Allah.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

learning_truth81

Greetings and Peace, all group

Bold emphasis added to quote, my comments in red.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Where is same sex marriage permitted for you in the Quran?

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Where is same sex marriage permitted for you in the Quran?

I have no idea if same-sex marriage is permitted/supported or not. In truth, it is not a topic of importance to me. I'm already married and have no inclination towards other men. There have been some interesting comments by others earlier in the thread that I'll consider if I ever do research this topic. Same-sex marriage is straying a little from the "Gay and Muslim" topic.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

learning_truth81

Greetings and Peace, all group

I have no idea if same-sex marriage is permitted/supported or not. In truth, it is not a topic of importance to me. I'm already married and have no inclination towards other men. There have been some interesting comments by others earlier in the thread that I'll consider if I ever do research this topic. Same-sex marriage is straying a little from the "Gay and Muslim" topic.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Same sex marriage is totally relevant, since I pointed out a few times earlier, that the only way to cohabit with someone you are sexually involved with is to be married. Islam does not permit a couple to be "together" and not be in wedlock. So I don't know why you keep dismissing marriage. So the questions stands, where is same sex marriage allowed according to Quran?

Now it is your life, you are free to have a relationship with a man, It is no one's business what you do, that is true, but you are not right when you say that homosexuality is accepted in Islam, nor should you really preach this as you are misleading many muslims by doing so.

huruf

Marriage is precisely sex relationship, but when people do not take seriously a sexual relationship but as a past time they are flaunting marriage, they are prostituting marriage. The Qur'an does not say to marry in order to make sex legally, what it says it that sex-marriage is a covenant, whether you sign papers or do not, and whether there are human witnesses or not. So it instructs men not to seek women for a past time and hiding, but with real commitment.

In fact, I think that those that make a distinction between sex and marriage, meaning that marriage is something different from sex, are giving right to same sex relationships. Whereas the Qur'an does nto go there.

However, it is up to anybody, any two or more persons of any sex to contract in any terms they like to live in company and support eah others in whatever economical terms they may deem. To delve in what kind of intimate relations they might or might not have is beside the point and a matter of privacy.

I say this, because the Qur'an does not put a lid on the kind of contracts people may sign or the pacts they can agree on. But sexual relationships between a man and a woman are something apart, in fact they are marriage, but when there is nto commitment it is a might transgression against God laws.

It is not "marriage" that makes sex lawful, it is non commitment what makes sex a transgression and an abuse of marriage, which a fact of nature and a necessity for societies to perpetuate, not a legal matter, but a natural matter that for its protection in a society where there are laws needs the protection of law, but it is not the laws that make marriage marriage. But the laws in fact undo marriage when they do not recognize sex as such marriage, giving a get away to irresponsible people to flaunt their natural duties.

Salaam

muslims

Salam huruf,

Evidence of poor reasoning (fallacy) from "self contradictory" statement.

First contradictory statement

Marriage is precisely sex relationship

Second contradictory statement

meaning that marriage is something different from sex

Third contradictory statement

sexual relationships between a man and a woman are something apart, in fact they are marriage

Lastly, denial of Allah's laws in ourselves and recognition of self laws?

it is not the laws that make marriage marriage.

And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed
then it is those who are the disbelievers
(544)

Okay, I'm confused! nope

And the example of a bad word
is like a bad tree
uprooted from the surface of the earth
not having any stability
(1426)

What are your conclusion and premises? hmm

What is your authority (Ayat) to support your conclusions?

Which laws you are referring to?

Even human laws are supporting and corroborating with the God's laws.

Okay, are we talking about the "Deen" or the rules of the animal kingdoms?

(refer here and here ... and of course, here!)

General Rule

This day I have perfected for you your deen
and completed My favor upon you
and have approved for you Islam as deen
(53)

Peace peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam muslims,

You misinterpreted huruf's post and she did not contradict herself if you analyzed the discourse more carefully.

God bless you

muslims

Salam

Therefore, please explain, I'm trying to understand her "conclusion" on "the definition and legality of marriage", and the "scope of transgression" relating to sexual conducts in the Qur'an. It is so since the issue of this thread is "Whether gay is a Muslim or Non-Muslim", and which depends on the status of marriage and scope of transgression in the relevant ayats.

I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?

If possible, try to put in the format of valid arguments.

http//z5.ifrm.com/30336/15/0/f5229388/argument.png

premise = ayats
conclusion = standings

Example

The Qur'an does not say to marry in order to make sex legally

Premise/Ayat? (showing or proving sex is legal without marriage,
Premise/Ayat? with or without commitments - approved by God - inheritance? )
(Her) Conclusion The Qur'an does not say to marry in order to make sex legally

General Rule

This day I have perfected for you your deen
and completed My favor upon you
and have approved for you Islam as deen
(53)

Thanks

Peace peace

muslims

Peace all

An analogy; a marriage that is prohibited even between opposite sex..

The fornicator does not marry
except a fornicator or polytheist <- not a muslim, and will never be
and none marries her
except a fornicator or a polytheist

and that has been made
unlawful to the believers <- Why "marriage" is unlawful to the believers?
(243)

And DO NOT marry polytheistic women until they believe <- comparison
And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist
even though she might please you

And DO NOT marry polytheistic men until they believe <- comparison
And a believing slave is better than a polytheist
even though he might please you

Those invite to the Fire
but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission
And He makes clear His verses to the people
that perhaps they may remember

And they ask you about menstruation <- cf. homosexuality
Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation
And DO NOT approach them until they are pure
And when they have purified themselves
then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you
Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant
and loves those who purify themselves."
(2221-222)

Why "marriage" is unlawful to the believers?

Is it because of "non-commitments"?

Salam handshake

drfazl

Bold emphasis added to quote, my comments in red.

My opinion is that the above is an ad hominem attack. My further opinion is that I have no time for ad hominem attacks and will place on "ignore" repeat violators

ALLAH knows best.

Peace Hadi,

Quran is personal for every one and all; and Allah is for every one; and we discuss and speak based on that Oneness and the Truth. Where is the question of ad hominem attack?

3336
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and Lut have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Lut, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

My opinion is that this is NOT what the verse says, and that it is unlawful to change a verse. Although Lot/Lut was a Messenger (Peace upon them all) the verse states Messenger--not Lot.

I also opine that I was not a witness to the above, but accept AQ as truth.

Faithfully to Allah.

huruf

Peace all

And DO NOT marry polytheistic women until they believe <- comparison
And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist
even though she might please you

And DO NOT marry polytheistic men until they believe <- comparison
And a believing slave is better than a polytheist
even though he might please you

Those invite to the Fire
but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission
And He makes clear His verses to the people
that perhaps they may remember

And they ask you about menstruation <- cf. homosexuality
Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation
And DO NOT approach them until they are pure
And when they have purified themselves
then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you
Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant
and loves those who purify themselves."
(2221-222)

Why "marriage" is unlawful to the believers?

Is it because of "non-commitments"?

Salam handshake

I do not understand your messag if it has anything to do with what I wrote. You say

"showing or proving sex is legal without marriage"

You have got it all wrong. You are separating sex from the law of God. Sex IS marriage. Sex is not wanting to marry or not wanting it, sex is consumating whatever marriage consists of. And on doing so, you are in fact giving sanction to gay marriage, because you make sex relationship between a man and a woman and if marriage is something different form that, any two persons could be entitled to it.

But what the Qur'an is enjoining is that

Believing Muhsanat are approved for you and muhsanat of the people who received previous revelations IF you pay them their dues and desire propriety and not debauchery. 5.5.

4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners...

?where do you see here a marriage as distinct from a sexual relationship? The sexual relationship by itself is sacred according to God in the Qur'an, it is men's lustful, bestial leanings, which devoid sex form its sacred character making out of it a pastime, and which makes of some women, prisoners of a "legal marriage, and makes of other women prostitutes, because the "users choose to make it secret and a pastime.

It is not the fact that it is extramatrimonial sex it is the fact that sex, a holy gift from our creator, the source of life and generations is desecrated and converted into shit. That is the crime, the sin, the monumental dirty that has taken over the minds of society. Minds that have shitted on God's command contained in 4.1 "Ittaqwu-llah... walarHam" (reverence God... and the wombs). Most male and female mentalities do not reverence the arHam. They are blind, they desecrate the favours and gists of God as if they were toys for spoilt kids.

YES MARRIAGE IS SEX AND SEX IS MARRIAGE. And anythign other than that is desecration. That is why divorce is allowed, so that we never have to lie in bed, wo that we never have to lie with our guts, with our wombs. So that we do not desecrate the source of life and people, the people we are.

YES, MARRIAGE IS SEX AND SEX IS MARRIAGE. Anything other than that is desecration.

Salaam

Well, it is clear that it is nto talking about any paper or formality

DrGm

YES, MARRIAGE IS SEX AND SEX IS MARRIAGE. Anything other than that is desecration.

Well, it is clear that it is nto talking about any paper or formality

peace,

straight path

muslims

I do not understand your messag if it has anything to do with what I wrote. You say

"showing or proving sex is legal without marriage"

You have got it all wrong. You are separating sex from the law of God. Sex IS marriage. Sex is not wanting to marry or not wanting it, sex is consumating whatever marriage consists of. And on doing so, you are in fact giving sanction to gay marriage, because you make sex relationship between a man and a woman and if marriage is something different form that, any two persons could be entitled to it.

But what the Qur'an is enjoining is that

Believing Muhsanat are approved for you and muhsanat of the people who received previous revelations IF you pay them their dues and desire propriety and not debauchery. 5.5.

4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners...

?where do you see here a marriage as distinct from a sexual relationship? The sexual relationship by itself is sacred according to God in the Qur'an, it is men's lustful, bestial leanings, which devoid sex form its sacred character making out of it a pastime, and which makes of some women, prisoners of a "legal marriage, and makes of other women prostitutes, because the "users choose to make it secret and a pastime.

It is not the fact that it is extramatrimonial sex it is the fact that sex, a holy gift from our creator, the source of life and generations is desecrated and converted into shit. That is the crime, the sin, the monumental dirty that has taken over the minds of society. Minds that have shitted on God's command contained in 4.1 "Ittaqwu-llah... walarHam" (reverence God... and the wombs). Most male and female mentalities do not reverence the arHam. They are blind, they desecrate the favours and gists of God as if they were toys for spoilt kids.

YES MARRIAGE IS SEX AND SEX IS MARRIAGE. And anythign other than that is desecration. That is why divorce is allowed, so that we never have to lie in bed, wo that we never have to lie with our guts, with our wombs. So that we do not desecrate the source of life and people, the people we are.

YES, MARRIAGE IS SEX AND SEX IS MARRIAGE. Anything other than that is desecration.

Salaam

Well, it is clear that it is nto talking about any paper or formality

Salam

Sex = Marriage
Marriage = Sex
Therefore, there is only "Marriage"

Therefore, "Sex" must be defined according to "Marriage" (God's Law).

Is this your point? Okay, I got it.

However my point sex is not marriage because there are other living creatures make sex and it is not marriages. People can make sex between same gender but it is not marriages. It is not marriages but it is sexual conducts (some say sexual misconducts). Sex is for all but marriage is for human beings. Sex is about conducts but marriage is about duties (contract - deen), even during the sexual conducts itself. In fact by defining "sex" is "marriage", we are lowering the standard of marriage to the standard of other living creatures. Marriage is not sex, marriage is higher than sex and are valid for human beings, not animals (*the Qur'an acknowledge some human beings are equal to animals, and animals will not be punished for having multiple couples for sex).

http//s23.postimg.org/6v0clr24r/marriage.png

I will not make gay 100% wrong because there are some valid arguments (not here), and they are also arguing "Sex" is "Marriage" and therefore it should be legalized. They have their own definition and concept of "Marriage" which I quite agree with them, even though sometimes sounds too perfect and not answering to realities. What I do not agree is the parties to their marriages, a small fraction of their arguments. It is without clear authority from the Qur'an (or any other religious books, religions, laws etc) and is inconsistent with the overall system of life. It is unjust. Therefore, they can make sex in any terms and manner they like, but it is not "Marriages". This is equally applied to prostitution or mut'ah etc, it is not marriages. It is sex, and there are lawful sexual conducts, and unlawful sexual conducts. For Muslim and if we have done our duty to hear and confirm their "reasons", we just say "Enjoy Yourselves!". There is no compulsion and they are free to choose their livings, as long it is private offence** and does not harm the society.

Peace

p/s Marriage is not sex and that's why people are referring marriages as the "INSTITUTION" of marriage. Can we say the "institution" of sex?

(**Is it a private offence? It involves two parties and can be considered as a public offence, an offering to the public to join the offeror committing an offence, harming the other party and exposing them to various infections or diseases to the other, their family and relatives (+humiliation) and the society at large; cf. abettors, non-payment of taxes or zakat, and punishment for adultery, ie. it is a public sentence. Private is related to one single entity, you alone and without contacts with two or more persons, eg. leaving prayers.)

huruf

No, no, no. We all know you can prostitute yourself and sex around with hundreds. I am not talking about that, about what people or animals can do, I am talking about ehat the Qur'an says. As ytou can see from the ayas I quoted in the Qur'an marriage is not distinct from sex between a woman and a man. That is precisely what it keeps saying that what you do with your flesh is marriage, but that you transgress when you out into your head that you can have sex that is not a real engagement and that besides that you can have sex merely as go go to the circus, for mere fun and no engagement, It is so clear. Because it doe snot say those you can marry but those that are allowed or are prohibited to you. The translators put in brackets (for marriage or something similar) but that is not in the original.

That is the Qur'an. If youa re talking about something else then there is no reason to discuss anything. You can have whatever you want, but not form the Qur'an. So gay marriage is out of the question since marriage, nikah for the Qur'an is between a man and a woman.

But as I pointed out, there is no reason for any society not to allow, I think it should be allowed, because not allowing it is tyrannical against people, for any two or more persons to contract sharing a home, sharing obligations, in whichever terms they agree, be they of the same sex or of different sex. Contract inssurances for the partners, etc. That would be sharing a good part of life, but would not be marriage.

Such as people are putting forth now the question of same sex marriage in fact they are hindering any two people of the same sex that do not want to inolve sex to declare themselves homosexuals, even if they are nto interested in sex, merely interested in sharing life or commitments with no sex involved. That is either discrimination because of sexual inclinations or privileging somebody with more rights to contract because of their sex life which in fact concerns only themselves.

So just let us keep to Qur'an, we all know that anybody can have sex with anybody and with animals and with isntruments and the lot. The Qur'an does not talk about that. The Qur'an clearly means that sex is marriage and if sex is anything else, then you are transgressing. I am talking about sex between a woman and a man. There is no injunction in the Qur'an about the behaviour to be followed for prople of the same sex to have sex realtions. At least I can't recall such.

Salaam

muslims

Salam

I am talking about ehat the Qur'an says. As ytou can see from the ayas I quoted in the Qur'an marriage is not distinct from sex between a woman and a man.

4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners...

?where do you see here a marriage as distinct from a sexual relationship?

RED is mine

Please explain how does the above ayat is the authority for making an assumption that "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".

Secondly,

But as I pointed out, there is no reason for any society not to allow, I think it should be allowed, because not allowing it is tyrannical against people, for any two or more persons to contract sharing a home, sharing obligations, in whichever terms they agree, be they of the same sex or of different sex. Contract inssurances for the partners, etc. That would be sharing a good part of life, but would not be marriage.

RED Is mine

I believe this will involve different issues, ie. "Whether gay is a public offence or private offence?". Why it is an offence when it is private between two individuals? Why prostitution is an offence?

(**Is it a private offence? It involves two parties and can be considered as a public offence, an offering to the public to join the offeror committing an offence, harming the other party and exposing them to various infections or diseases to the other, their family and relatives (+humiliation) and the society at large; cf. abettors, non-payment of taxes or zakat, and punishment for adultery, ie. it is a public sentence. Private is related to one single entity, you alone and without contacts with two or more persons, eg. leaving prayers.)

Peace peace

huruf

Salam

RED is mine

Please explain how does the above ayat is the authority for making an assumption that "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".

Secondly,

RED Is mine

I believe this will involve different issues, ie. "Whether gay is a public offence or private offence?". Why it is an offence when it is private between two individuals? Why prostitution is an offence?

Peace peace

Please explain how does the above ayat is the authority for making an assumption that " "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex".

What is it talking about according to you? What does show in the aya that sex could be a distinct thing for marriage and that you could have sex but not give ujur and have it secret? Precisely what it is doing is not stating that you are making a contract but hat the thingW, in itself, to God's law is the contract, when you take a woman it is always before God, it is not on His back or IN SECRET. You are taking an undertaking. God is nto saying you need so and so and formalise so and so, it is saying that those women are allowed BY HIM to you if you do so and so. Obviously it is talking about sex. Or if you take it that it is not talking about sex, about what is it talking, it does not say marriage at all. There is no escape form it. When you engage in sex with a women, you are engaging with a women, full stop. There is no "I did not mean to marry her". God does nto allow such tricks. The fact that mentally people are usually schizofrenic as towhat is a relationship between a man and a woman as sexes, they are trampling on God's law. What, do you think that because you do it hiding and not undetaking any obligation that God is turning a blind eye on what you do with that he calls a mithaq ghaliDhan? You have crank too much of male irresposibility and female too in latest years, but it is a human product, no a divine product. And even it has not been always so. In earlier centuries society did expect of men, even when they did not contract officially anything that thy did acknowledge publicly their relationships and their offspring. The male obliviousness to that is fairley recent in western thought, and it has permeated oriental thought making for orientals the worst of two worlds. In the XV-XVI centuries, at least in Spanish scope, it was nto a shame not to be officially married and still have relationships and have children. Men did acknowledge those relationships publicly and acknoledged their offspring publicly. Later that changed, but it was clear to them as it is clear to anybody that is not brainwashed, that people, naas, are not animals nor ignorant of humanness and God's given fitra, and the same as they are not animals for other things they are not so either for their flesh relationships ans their offspring.

It is the Satanic way to disintegrate and to separate, cody from mind, body from heart, and go on to say that they do not have anything to do.

So next thing we are going to say is that children do not exist because there is no contrac on them, and that if there is no official certificate of birth they do not exist? No, the birth is nto the paper or de official, clerical certification of the birth, that is what others do with respect to it, but they are not the fact of the birth. The same with the relationship, you may be oblivious to its engagement, but IT IS THERE AND REAL. We may forget it at our won risk and cheat ourselves as much as we want. God is nto cheated. God's sees through all the tricks and God will make us see the truth, billingly or unwillingly, and we will se hell through our blindness to think that what we name is what it is. God is telling us int he Qur'an what it is. He is not talking about a paper, papers are for our protection on this earth from being cheated or being confused, it is not for our hearts, our hearts know how we do. And mahy times we muflle them up and do not let them talk to us.

Any way, separate flesh from paper as much as we want. We do it against ourselves.

This divorce, between deed and paper, between flesh and ming, and heart, is a sign of disintegration. i think that the world in many things has come forward, even in moral things, fortunately, but on others we are mightily deluded. We are very clever with our tongues and mind tricks, but we are deluded in many other things. Some males tend to think that they can compartimentalize what is a real relationship and what is just nothing, why? because they are nothing when they engage in nothing. They become nothing in order for the things they do to mean nothing.

Same with the women who have followed their example. Too bad the women's liberation, well overdue an still overdue, was so arranged that the women became as bad as the males and no the other way round. But since we have that default setting that males are perfect and if anybody wants to be perfect they should become as a male, there we are.

So marriage and sex are to separate things. Does God say that, please quote HIM.

Salaam