Bird's meat vs. Pig's meat
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Peace,
I make it a practice to basically eat meatless dishes if I am eating outside of my house. It may be a bit paranoid, but I feel safer that way.
That's good advice and God Willing I'll do just that (except at Subway). The guy I spoke with on the telephone was Chinese and I could barely understand what he was saying and I am sure he did not understand me either as he just kept telling me what number (from the menu).
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Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.
Peace Osunlaya,
Pork is very common here, not exactly to season, but yes, it is added to many dishes. You can imagime what means here to be vegetarian or moving to vegetarianism... -
Salaam Green Leaves,
I feel so bad for the experience you went through. Ask Allah to erase the experience from your mind yet keep the lesson alive!
But really, it is not just the pork. Think of the lard! It is widely used in non-Muslim countries in America, Europe and the Far East, etc. used even with vegetarian dishes! So it is still not safe to eat outside home 'cause one never knows!
Taj
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Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.
Peace Osunlaya,
Pork is very common here, not exactly to season, but yes, it is added to many dishes. You can imagime what means here to be vegetarian or moving to vegetarianism...As'Salaam Alaykum Elena,
I can imagine your difficulty!
I have embarrassed friends when we have gone out to eat because they were uncomfortable with my interrogation lol of the waiters and waitresses. As Taj pointed out it is hard to be sure when you eat "out of your home". I put restaurants through the third degree about how they prepare food and what they are using when they cook, but since I'm paying for it I think I have the right to know.
In my experience, if the restaurant is a good one, then once you express to them your dietary requirements they will accomodate you.
What part of Spain are you in?
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya -
Peace everyone,
Thanks for your uplifting comments...I really felt awful after I called the restaurant only to find out I had just had pork for lunch! Yuck!
But really, it is not just the pork. Think of the lard! It is widely used in non-Muslim countries in America, Europe and the Far East, etc. used even with vegetarian dishes! So it is still not safe to eat outside home 'cause one never knows!
I agree Taj, Elena and Olysana (I hope I spelled it right)...you know, not only is eating outside risky in terms of pork and what not, its not healthy at all either. Before starting college, I used to eat food prepared by my mum and then when I lived at school, I had no choice but to eat outside because I can't cook ops
In just six months, I ended up gaining tweleve extra pounds...it took me three months of intense dieting and exercise to loose those extra pounds and get back in shape.
Yes, my new year's resolution will be to get healthy by not eating outside - except at Subway ) God Willing
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Peace,
have any of you seen this funny flash intended to denounce factory farming? Humor to report bad things.
'Moorpheous' contacts 'Leo'....
www.themeatrix.com -
Salaam Elena,
Humer with cause! A very good one!
But even farm-raised fish such as salmon has been shown to contain many pollutants, some of which are industrial chemicals that have been banned since the seventies yet still found in those fish and been linked to cancer!Taj
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Peace all,
Yes, the mayo is a problem, but you can ask them to not include any.
And Star Bucks...I won't even get started on that...did you know some of those Star Bucks mocha's and lates have enough calories and fat to qualify as a meal? And McDonald's is plain old awful. There's this new restaurant that just opened where I live and its called Pita Inn, they've got Mid-Eastern food and its really good, but I think they do a little too many beef/lamb dishes, but their chicken is really good.
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
Unfortunately I accidently ate pork's meat today. I thought I was ordering just fried rice because the menu did not say pork was included in it...I feel awful reading this now.
I won't be eating Chinese every in my life now...bad bad experience.
Sorry about your experience, it was probably worse once you found out what you had eaten. The MIND is very powerful behind BELIEFS. This is why scientist use an experiment called teh DOUBLE BLIND experiment. They give a pill to one of two people, neither of which knows who really has the true pill. The REASON is that the scientists KNOW how the MIND can effect the outcome. MIND over MATTER
So what I am saying is that whild PIGs MEAT is bad for us, it was probably worse when you found out what it was.
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Salam taj, all
just now came across your post on lard. As for as I know, lard can be either only fat, or sometimes comes with a little meat in it. What coran specifically forbids is pigs meat "lahmalkhanzir" not pigs fat. Pigs fat is quite widely used and most times we don't even know about it...but I repeat, what is prohibited, if we take it literally, is the meat - may be because a sickness caused through a worm "trichinella spiralis" is propagated if you eat pork meat that was not cooked enough. Even though this sickness can also be propagated by other animals eaten...porc is the most common vector.
Elke
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Peace,
So what I am saying is that whild PIGs MEAT is bad for us, it was probably worse when you found out what it was. Very Happy
I know, I did feel awful and what was even more awful was that I never had pig's meat in my life and I if something new touches my taste buds and I am expecting a chicken flavor...my mind tells me this isn't chicken, but I guess was very hungry and I just kept eating...I was thinking if it had pork in it, the menus would say so...if anything I thought that was chicken meat because the main thing I ordered was chicken.
Just because I did not investigate before, I promised I won't be eating any kind of meat for a month - that's my punishment and it ought to serve me right evil
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Salaam Elke,
Salam taj, all
just now came across your post on lard. As for as I know, lard can be either only fat, or sometimes comes with a little meat in it. What coran specifically forbids is pigs meat "lahmalkhanzir" not pigs fat. Pigs fat is quite widely used and most times we don't even know about it...but I repeat, what is prohibited, if we take it literally, is the meat - may be because a sickness caused through a worm "trichinella spiralis" is propagated if you eat pork meat that was not cooked enough. Even though this sickness can also be propagated by other animals eaten...porc is the most common vector.
Elke
Lard is a by-product. No one would raise pigs for their lard and then discard their meat!
Taj
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Peace all,
The God specify the restriction, when He forbade for the Jews the fat of the cattle and the sheep except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone (6146), that doesn't imply their meat are forbidden. In the same way, only the meat from the pig is forbidden.
The God knows best
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Peace Idolfree
I believe that every lesson is symbolic and not always literal, while others are both -literal and symbolic. As of now i believe that the verses which forbid the pig (not the whole, rather the meat and blood) are speaking litterally, because if we associate the pig with being a greed/earth food for thought ideal then it would not make sense for God to state 'Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.' (2173) When in need is when desires for self (greed) are conjured up the strongest, this would be the opposite of overcoming our desires (599) if we ingest an earthly/greedy mindset.
However, I could be overlooking something that you see because the knowledge of an animal being dedicated to other than God is conjecture, unless you are to do it your self and how exactly do you dedicate an animal to God-surely not with mere words when actions speak.
I think the symbolism may be getting clearer, I don't ever remember seeing this verse before.
(5621) And bird's meat from what they desire
The above verse is describing one of the gifts of the eternal garden.
It is interesting that we are toldnot to eat "pigs meat" and the opposite is that in the Garden we wil get "bird's meat".
Your mentioning of birds brought these verse's to my attention, interesting?
So do not linger with your eyes on what We have bestowed upon some couples from them, and do not grieve for them, and lower your wing for the believers.(158
A case of you are what you eat?
O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your wickedness, as well as feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from God?s signs, perhaps they will remember. (726)
The pig is an animal that conjures up the EARTHLY/GREEDY mentality. They eat everything, they wallow in mud and feces, very earth based creatures(life of this world). In contrast, the bird is not "earth bound", but shows a good balance of "heaven and earth" (please excuse the use of the word heaven in this example). When things get difficult on the ground, when conditions are not right, the bird seeks refuge by going into the skies(skies represent the mind). Just like the symbolismof our journey to the God is climbing a mountain in the skies.
I agree, the pig (or how I've seen it depicted) appears to over indulge, while the bird seemingly takes the middle path, peace.
Regarding the sky as the mind, then would the sun be God/spirit (symobllically) and the earth be the projections of what the sky does with the light from God. Just a thought.
Now look at this verse that links birds and mountains.
(2260) And when Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you revive the deads." He said "Did you not have faith?" he said "Yes/certainly, and but (for) my heart to (be) assured/secure (E)." He (Abraham) said "So take four from the birds, train them, then put on every mountain from them a portion, then call them, they come (to) you fast , and know that The God is glorious/mighty/powerful/dignified, wise/judicious."
Interesting to note is that four is often associated with the earth. Such as four corners, four seasons and even four restricted months (936) I will need to reflect to assemble these peices however.
There is a common phrase used by people when they don't belive something will happen, they say "when pig's fly" wink
Interesting.
pz
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Salam Marie, Taj, All
Marie, I really liked your former avatar ! Where did you get it or similar ones ? (Doesn't mean I don't like the new one though)
Absolutely in sink with your above post (as so often!)Taj wrote
Lard is a by-product. No one would raise pigs for their lard and then discard their meat!
Must admit I don't get the connection...True in pork everything is used. Sometimes fat is used in soap (ok you don't normally eat it lol ) or used as an ingredient in biscuits or things you might buy and you won't even know about it.
Anyway, hope I don't shock you, but even though I don't eat pig meat (at least knowingly for the last 15 years), I sometimes happen to eat pigs fat - knowingly! When I get to Germany and in my family they have a pot of "schmalz"...I just can't resist.... wink
Elke
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Peace elke, all
I sometimes happen to eat pigs fat - knowingly! When I get to Germany and in my family they have a pot of "schmalz"...I just can't resist.... wink
but tell me how do you know it is not forbiden based on the fact that it might be the fat of a pig that died of itself(maytatan)?
i also wonder for a long time now about the products which have, say3% or sometimes even less percentage of unknown ingridients, i mean which are not specified at the label of a product....
for example lecithin...at many products label simply says lecithin 3% however it may be, toward my humble knowledge, of animal origin as well as non-animal origin, like soya lecithin.....
i also have read that while preparing as simple products as bread, the producers add many different additives(true in small percentage or even promiles) of which some are of animal origin...
I wonder if eating them is the same as eating those animals?
I am not sure if i am making the right associations but according to one of the renderings of 2249 drinking as much as a mere sip out of the hand from the forbiden river might exclude someone from the right path...!?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you Khalil,
I believe that every lesson is symbolic and not always literal, while others are both -literal and symbolic. As of now i believe that the verses which forbid the pig (not the whole, rather the meat and blood) are speaking litterally, because if we associate the pig with being a greed/earth food for thought ideal then it would not make sense for God to state 'Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.' (2173) When in need is when desires for self (greed) are conjured up the strongest, this would be the opposite of overcoming our desires (599) if we ingest an earthly/greedy mindset.
Yes, this is the dilemma I cannot reason through just yet.
However, I could be overlooking something that you see because the knowledge of an animal being dedicated to other than God is conjecture, unless you are to do it your self and how exactly do you dedicate an animal to God-surely not with mere words when actions speak.
Lets take another look at the verse and see if we can produce a possibility;
(2173) But He prohibited on you animals whose death was caused by suffocation or strangulation/dead, and the blood, and the pig's meat, and what is praised/declared to whom the sacrifice was made with it to other than God, so who was forced, not transgressing/corrupting , and nor transgressing/violating , so no sin/crime on him, that God (is) forgiving , most merciful .
I highlighted two crucial words that I hope the more skilled Arabic readers can verify for me. I think it might make all the difference. If it is true that it speaks in the past tense talking about those who, prior to THIS, WERE forced into "greedy passions", then once they hear and obey this instruction, they are "forgiven" by the Forgiving.
I see most of the translations say after the word FORCED, "by necessity". The literal translation I refer to many times does not have this phrase. Can someone confirm or deny if this phrase "by necessity" is there?
idolfree1 wrote
I think the symbolism may be getting clearer, I don't ever remember seeing this verse before.(5621) And bird's meat from what they desire
The above verse is describing one of the gifts of the eternal garden.
It is interesting that we are toldnot to eat "pigs meat" and the opposite is that in the Garden we wil get "bird's meat".
Your mentioning of birds brought these verse's to my attention, interesting?
So do not linger with your eyes on what We have bestowed upon some couples from them, and do not grieve for them, and lower your wing for the believers.(158
A case of you are what you eat?
O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your wickedness, as well as feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from God?s signs, perhaps they will remember. (726)
Good observations!! D
Quote
The pig is an animal that conjures up the EARTHLY/GREEDY mentality. They eat everything, they wallow in mud and feces, very earth based creatures(life of this world). In contrast, the bird is not "earth bound", but shows a good balance of "heaven and earth" (please excuse the use of the word heaven in this example). When things get difficult on the ground, when conditions are not right, the bird seeks refuge by going into the skies(skies represent the mind). Just like the symbolismof our journey to the God is climbing a mountain in the skies.I agree, the pig (or how I've seen it depicted) appears to over indulge, while the bird seemingly takes the middle path, peace.
Regarding the sky as the mind, then would the sun be God/spirit (symobllically) and the earth be the projections of what the sky does with the light from God. Just a thought.
Yes, I have the Sun, being the LAMP in the sky (mind) as the Will of the God, it is constantly emmiting the life force(ruh/divine energy). The ancient Kemetens(egyptians) also used the sun to describe this SOLAR FORCE/ENERGY and called it "Ra" , very close to "RUH".
The earth is the human. The moon represents the mind/spirit, which is time conditioned, meaning there is a certain TIME for us to do certain things. I was unsure what you meant by the earths projections. Please elaborate. You can PM me if to as well.
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Now look at this verse that links birds and mountains.(2260) And when Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you revive the deads." He said "Did you not have faith?" he said "Yes/certainly, and but (for) my heart to (be) assured/secure (E)." He (Abraham) said "So take four from the birds, train them, then put on every mountain from them a portion, then call them, they come (to) you fast , and know that The God is glorious/mighty/powerful/dignified, wise/judicious."
Interesting to note is that four is often associated with the earth. Such as four corners, four seasons and even four restricted months (936) I will need to reflect to assemble these peices however.
Yes, please do this and let me know the results of your studies/work.
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There is a common phrase used by people when they don't belive something will happen, they say "when pig's fly"Interesting.
Yes, I thought so as well. Please let me know any further observations that you come across that either strengthen or weaken this argument.
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Peace Idolfree
Lets take another look at the verse and see if we can produce a possibility;
(2173) But He prohibited on you animals whose death was caused by suffocation or strangulation/dead, and the blood, and the pig's meat, and what is praised/declared to whom the sacrifice was made with it to other than God, so who was forced, not transgressing/corrupting , and nor transgressing/violating , so no sin/crime on him, that God (is) forgiving , most merciful .
I highlighted two crucial words that I hope the more skilled Arabic readers can verify for me. I think it might make all the difference. If it is true that it speaks in the past tense talking about those who, prior to THIS, WERE forced into "greedy passions", then once they hear and obey this instruction, they are "forgiven" by the Forgiving.
I see most of the translations say after the word FORCED, "by necessity". The literal translation I refer to many times does not have this phrase. Can someone confirm or deny if this phrase "by necessity" is there?
I cannot verify this however my brother has learned a great deal of farsee (sp?) and I could get his view on this nonetheless. Right now we can look at the proceeding verses.
- Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture (al-kitab), and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
Concealing 'al-kitab' in favour of an earthly gain (cheap price). Eating fire is a metaphor since many people who conceal 'al-kitab' in favour of material gains consume the same 'food' as me and you-physically.
- These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance, and retribution for forgiveness; they have no patience towards the Fire.
Retribution instead of forgiveness because they heared and did not obey.
- This is because God has sent down the Scripture (al-kitab) with truth; and those who have disputed in the Scripture (al-kitab) are in far opposition.
- Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Piety is not based on outer observations?
This is just a quick (very quick-very late) glimpse and I do recall that the verse forbidding pigs is repeated three or four times through out the 'reading/quran' so it would be fair to look at each proceeding verse as well. I will add on to this at some time in the future (god willing).
Good observations!!
Dido!!!! shock
Yes, I have the Sun, being the LAMP in the sky (mind) as the Will of the God, it is constantly emmiting the life force(ruh/divine energy). The ancient Kemetens(egyptians) also used the sun to describe this SOLAR FORCE/ENERGY and called it "Ra" , very close to "RUH".
The earth is the human. The moon represents the mind/spirit, which is time conditioned, meaning there is a certain TIME for us to do certain things. I was unsure what you meant by the earths projections. Please elaborate.
A simpler way that I read somewhere else was an example of a projector, the light is God, the images are the minds and the blank screen is the world (egmind is th builder, physical is the result). Since God is one all energy is from God and is life/holy (hence no 'unholy spirit' in al-quran), but it is the image's our minds produce that mask this energy and the result is a stable or unstable enviroment around us one we do or don't inherit. That is what I meant, all though I do not feel I am being clear enough.
I meant that the sun is always there and never turns, rather earth turns away from the sun. The rays from the sun reach the earth and are always the same however due to a depleting ozone they may cause harm or due to cloudy sky's they may appear to not be there etc. I will have to think on the moons because I am still very unsure, however here is an interesting verse that I think is often overlooked
(911,2) By the sun and his splendour. By the moon as shefollows him. In Yusuf Ali's translation the moon is feminine and the sun is masculine although FM's does not follow this translation so I am in need of a translator as well. (
You can PM me if to as well.
Indeed I shall in due time (GW), I have some interesting news (dont get your hopes up-not too interesting) regarding some newly learned knowledge, as well I am sure you do.
Yes, please do this and let me know the results of your studies/work.
Indeed.
Yes, I thought so as well. Please let me know any further observations that you come across that either strengthen or weaken this argument.
A messy room is a pig sty and a corrupt police officer is a pig, as well overindulginf is pigging out.
I have a copy of 'The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols' and some of what it states I'll briefly sum up before I go to bed
- The pig is almost a worldwide symbol for gluttony and greed
- Pigs are depicted in the middle of the Tibetin wheel of life, primarily representing ignorance
- Greek legend witch Circe turned men who pressed their suit upon her into swine
- Ancient Egyptians depicted on their amulets Nut (sky goddess, eternal mother of stars) as a sow sucking her litter
What I have come to find (so far) is that this book is written from a christian conservative perspective so it has a particular bias, but take what you can from it.
Also the dove is used throughout christianity as a constructive symbol, but the raven/crow showed Adam's son how to barry his dead brother which may relate back to Moses asking God 'How he ressurects the dead' but ahhh.. I need sleep or else I will brainstorm without constraints and create a long rant. Btw St. Clement labeled pig as been spiritually forbidden, so the idea has been there sometime now.
oz