Gay and Muslim?
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Salaam,
I think you have gotten it a bit wrong. Muslim is a certain behavior and not a label. Being a good Muslim will lead to belief (God willing). Belief is not just belief on a human dimension to God. It takes more than just express; "I believe" and you are a believer, you need a degree of certainty first and instead you should say "I am a Muslim (and I intend to become a Believer by righteous deeds and only serve God)". Few of us, if even any, are certain about God in our hearts right away and it takes some time. As long as there is doubt about anything you are not a Believer but "only" a Muslim (which is not so little).
Muslim is behavior in general and not necessarily from Quran's literary meaning as it is a guidebook and not that everything circles around it but rather around God Himself. Even people before Quran were Muslims by definition who lived like those who are entitled to this.
Islam is more vast than people think even if they have given themselves certain labels out of ignorance. Even if you call yourself Muslim and do not live like one then you do not believe in Islam or God according to God Himself as you do not adapt to His system. Basically 'being good' and serve God is what Islam is about, and believe that God created all this.
True Muslim is of course up to God to decide but if you act out your life as one through deeds then you are one. It is little about what you say but what you do. A bit like Jesus allegedly said Man cannot live by words alone".
Christians call themselves just Christians but they are Muslims if they were unitarian. It is a confusion on their part. Jesus was a Muslim for example. Idolatry led them to this. But yet I am sure that behavior and thoughts are far more important to God than a petty label.
On a depth if you want to believe and do righteous deeds but not yet ascertained you are a Muslim. If you are faithful that God really exist you are more than a Muslim but also a Believer.
It is rough to funnel all people through this Muslim concept but most people including people with certain idolatrous behavior can be Muslims anyway if they are being good people. But as long as they do not believe it will still be difficult for them to enter God's paradise. One can practice idolatry in many ways and it can also be oneself that is a problem and an idol or your priorities. God frequently says, my interpretation Be mindful of me (only) and purify yourselves and when you do this you may be able to title yourself Muslim. And when you also truly believe then you are also a Believer.
When you go and say a gay cannot be a Muslim you step on dangerous ground and talk about something of which you have no knowledge. It is first of all not up to you to decide. A righteous person who happens to be gay and does not choose him or herself is still a Muslim due to the deeds. He follows God's system, God made him gay and not himself so the person did nothing wrong. A person mocking this person is not a Muslim on the other hand per behavior.
God bless you
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Were you also attracted to same-sex people during your childhood? Since when did you realize that.you were homosexual? If you want to believe in God and that Qur'an is from God, do you think you can or need to struggle to overcome homosexuality?
Peace brother. I felt attracted to them right from a very early age. Initially, it was just my brothers and father...they were the first males that I came across. I didn't know about kissing or making out, so I would just imagine them naked...and rub my private part against the floor. It would give me a certain pleasure, and I would reach a climax soon...but never understood what it meant...or why it came only after some amount of rubbing! I guess I was around 6 or 7...not sure.
I realized I was a homosexual when I began reading books. We used to have many books and dictionaries. Only then did I discover that you are supposed to get attracted to females, not males. Until then, I had no idea what I was doing and why.
I can definitely avoid homosexual acts...but attraction to men comes as naturally to me as attraction to women comes to you..it's an integral and unavoidable part of me.
You compared it with your urge to pull hair. But does pulling hair satisfy a BASIC human need? Sex is a BASIC human need..and so is the desire to be loved by another man/woman. I don't think the two are comparable.
I wasn't offended by your post at all. I'm glad to know that you are tolerant, understanding and polite.
We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.
Peace good logic, I do often think it's a test. But it puzzles me why the same rules don't apply to straight men/women. I'm no different from them, am I? I often wish God had mentioned something about LGBT in the Koran. I'm not even asking for the same privileges..but at least an acknowledgment...maybe something like this
And there are some men among you who desire men, and some women who desire women. Do not act upon your desires, for it is a sin. It is a test from God. Whosoever is patient and does good deeds, for them is a reward with God. Do not oppress such people, for they were made this way. God is Omniscient, Wise (Koran ????)
It would have made me more confident about it coming from an All-Knowing Creator. Most Muslim countries oppress LGBT people.
I'm not sure that AQ is totally silent on lesbians.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.
416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.
I remember reading on this forum once that the women referred to here were prostitutes. So a command came that such women should be confined to their homes so that vice doesn't spread in the society. Are you sure 416 refers to gay men?
It is clear that 780 is not referring to homosexuality, which long predates the people of Lot.
But then what is it referring to? I did not quite understand your post. Please clarify brother. The next verse makes it clear that it's okay to approach females but not males.
I often bump into some disturbing claims...I don't really endorse them..but neither do I know how to counter them. And they often haunt me. For example,
Koran says homosexuality never existed before Lot. But homosexuality existed. So Koran is not divine.
Koran says Christians worship Gabriel and Mary. But they don't. They worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So Koran is not divine.
Koran says Jews worship Ezra as God's son. There is no historical record of this anywhere. So Koran is not divine.
Koran says gays choose men over women. We know that they don't choose. They simply act on the only desires they have. So Koran is not divine.
I guess there will always be some questions that we can never answer. Nevertheless, my faith in God comes more from science than from the Koran. The fine-tuning of the Universe and the fact that we can decipher the Universe point to a deeper meaning.
For example, check these out
http//www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-goldilocks-enigma-by-paul-davies-419758.html
http//articles.latimes.com/1995-03-11/local/me-41323_1_paul-daviesNevertheless, among all the scriptures that I have studied, it is only the Koran that I find to be most consistent and coherent in its basic message. I can't say the same about the Bible - there's night and day difference between OT and NT. I find the NT a bit vague in its basic message - you can get Trinity out of it if you want, but you can also get Judeo-Islamic monotheism out of it if you want. In other words, if the whole Trinity thing was so essential to our salvation, you would expect that God would have explicitly mentioned it in the NT, which does not seem to be the case.
If you give the Bible to ten people who have no idea about Christianity, they will probably come up with ten different takeaways. I guess the same goes for scriptures of other faiths.
But give the Koran to them, and they will all probably agree about service to God alone, certainty of Hereafter, and the importance of good deeds.
God bless....
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Peace bookish.
Please keep your trust in God. With God there is a way out.
951
Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what God has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In God the believers shall trust."God bless you.
Peace
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Salam Man of Faith
I'm not surprise. There is nothing new with your definition of "Muslim" and which derive from the mainstream definition of Muslims, the sectarian definition; ie. the definition of Muslim who see Islam as a religion despite the Qur'an have never talked about religion (madzhab). (refer here)
The truth is many are still not Muslim.
When his Lord said to him, "Submit"
he said "I have submitted to the Lord of the worlds."
And Abraham instructed his sons and Jacob,
"O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this deen
so do not die except while you are Muslims" <- Being a Muslim or obedience is not their choice, same here!
(2131-132) - our ultimate goal, being a MuslimWhy? The words Islam and Muslim come from the same three letter root word (s,l and m). Islam by definition means "surrender and submission" only to the one true creator. A muslim by definition means "one who surrenders and submits to the laws of God".
The issue is how can someone be a Muslim if he is IQ'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God"? (refer here)
Can you refer me to an ayat that say this??
Please, no rambling.. just one direct ayat from the Qur'an.
Whereas Allah clearly says
And whoever seeks a "dnan" (ا other than Islam <- "surrender and submission"
it will NEVER be accepted of him <- Do you have a choice if Allah say "NEVER"?
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)Further, it's not necessarily to have 100% faith to be a Believer (which is referred by Allah as a True Believer).
In contradiction, people can "believe" in Allah (Believer) whether or not he is surrendering to the laws of God.
And if you asked them
"Who created the heavens and the earth?"
they would surely say, " Allah <- They believe, but not surrender, ie. not a Muslim
" Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah?
(393Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth?
Or who controls hearing and sight
and who brings the living out of the dead
and brings the dead out of the living
and who arranges matter?"
They will say, " Allah ," <- They believe, but not surrender, ie. not a Muslim
so say, "Then will you not fear Him?"
(1031)Therefore when someone accepting or converting into Islam, they are in fact entering into a "Contract" with Allah to obey; "We hear, we obey", and not "We hear, we disobey". Islam is in fact a Contract (refer here), and if one reads the whole Qur'an and think logically, the only issue related to the question of "We hear, we obey" or "We hear, we disobey" is "obedience" and "disobedience". You can either obey or disobey Allah. You are a Muslim if you iq'tiqad to obey Allah, and you are non-Muslim if you iq'tiqad to disobey Allah.
Therefore, there is only "Muslim" or "non-Muslim". There is no where in the Qur'an Allah differentiate between a Muslim and a True Muslim. In contradiction, Allah repeatedly differentiates between a Believer and True Believer.
And of the people are some who say
"We believe in Allah and the Last Day,"
but they are not believers
(2 <- compare with (82)The bedouins say,
"We have believed."
Say, "You have not believed; but say
'We have submitted,' <- They are entering contract, to become Muslim
for faith has not yet entered your hearts
And if you obey Allah and His Messenger
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
The believers
are only <- meaning of True Believer
the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger
and then doubt not <- even for 0.1% or during great test from Allah
but strive with their properties
and their lives in the cause of Allah
It is those who are the truthful <- True Believer
(4914-15)please also refer to (82)
The relevant question what is Allah compares to?
Do you understand what is the meaning of "doubt not", "are only" and "truthful"?
It is obvious that Allah is comparing to the meaning of "True Believer", the one who "doubt not" even for less than 0.1%, or during great test from Allah (compare with 1062-64 for the understanding of "doubt not"; ie. the Awliya). The one who strive with their properties and lives all their life in the cause of Allah. Allah is not mentioned about the general Believers. It is about True Believers and only them is the one who is truthful in their belief.
Therefore, there are Believers who have faith even before they are accepting Islam, and whether or not he is surrendering to the laws of God; ie. whether a Muslim or non-Muslim.
Please give an ayat from the Qur'an to support your conclusion and answer the issue of our discussion. I'm getting tired of reading "personal opinion". I believe and have faith in the Qur'an, not "personal opinion". If we are wrong, let it be we wrong while referring the words of Allah. We are reforming for the better.
Peace peace
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Salaam,
From where do you get the impression that I have a traditional interpretation?
You mumble on about the same thing I just explained to you.
There is only one system and that is Islam and it is no religion in that regard. I am not sure how you see that I at all understand this with a sectarian mind?
There is no converting to Islam as you cannot convert to something you already are. However, if you are a polytheist or any odd believer you can "convert" to Islam or adopt Islam as system.
There is no my opinion. It is God's opinion however you often post your opinion here. Look at yourself before you accuse others.
What you wrote in your post is my words formulated differently so I am not sure what you are rambling on about or argue.
Muslim is of course submission to God but you are not a Believer even if you call yourself Muslim. Muslim does not accurately translate Submitter and it is much more than submission. The word indicates a certain behavior and lifestyle.
A greeting for a Muslim is salam and you do not say "Submit!" to the person you meet. Islam does not translate Submission. It is a mix between peace and submission. I have experimented with the word 'harmony', to bring balance to the harmony of things as the exact interpretation to English by being mindful of God and purifying yourself.
I think you have problems reading my sentences unfortunately as you only confirm what I say believing I am wrong.
There is no "accepting Islam" if you already believe as you are already a Muslim. There is a certain conversion if you are not a monotheist but otherwise you just confirm what you already believe if you for example stumble across the Quran for the first time. The Islam as a religious label is just a human invention and while you argue against me you defend the label indirectly.
You can, like I said, be a Muslim without having faith in the heart and it means being a good person and accepting the ultimate power in the universe even if it is trusting that something is true without being certain. When you have strong faith you are a Believer. Muslim is like "I want to believe (but I am completely sure yet about the Truth)" and they follow the guidelines God printed out in Quran and which is part of the Message which has been the same all the time, even before Quran was revealed, ie mindful of God, His creation and being righteous people. Of you go one step further you are still Muslim but you also have Iman and are a mo'meen. Muslim is the description of the specific behavior of a person who serves God.
If I know you right you will repeat my words with a different formulation saying I said something entirely different from you and what Quran says.
But I said "You are what you are, you cannot convert yourself into something you already stand for". Conversion rituals and verbal confirmations are human inventions.
God bless you
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Salaam,
And what puzzles me more is from where you get that I oppose this argument. Think you may need to either reread my posts or study more English.
God bless you
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Salaam,
What is my opinion? In that case most of what you write is also your opinion. I wrote nothing unsupported by Quran.
God bless you
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Salaam,
Talk for yourself. Do you think God's words are limited to one book only. God's supply of ink is limitless.
What is wrong with the statement I made in the quote? You do not think people were Muslims before the advent of Quran? Quran is a guidebook revealed as a mercy and blessing from the Lord and is an addition to the Message and a book which is more accurate than previous scriptures thanks to being a narration by God Himself instead of only words like in testimonies as the Messengers of old.
I read your older post today and I reacted because I did not agree and I wrote an appropriate answer and now it comes to this, you say that I only argue. When you reply you echo my words with a different formulation while simultaneously claiming me wrong oddly enough which would effectively mean you speak against yourself.
Earlier you made a post utterly irrelevant for the highlighted question which I reflected upon.
And now I wonder if you have interpretation problems since you reply in weird ways most of the time.
And as far as I know you claim that Muslims who happen to be gay are not really Muslims with no clear evidence which shines with personal opinion. And you say I and other people around here follow their own opinion.
I think you belittle others while boasting ultimate knowledge and accuracy. The same occurred in another thread in which I over and over proved you wrong about a topic and went into a deep analysis and you could not understand a thing.
God bless you
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Muslim is the one who lives like a Muslim and it is not necessarily bound to Quran which is a guidebook. It is not a fixed label for specific people.
What is wrong with the statement I made in the quote?
Salam
The issue is how can someone be a Muslim if he is IQ'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God"? (refer here)
Can you refer me to an ayat that say this??
Please, no rambling.. just one direct ayat from the Qur'an.
Btw.. since when you are interested in ad hominem and being aggressive?
I'm sure you can find another way to voice your opinion without being aggressive. yes
Peace
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Salaam,
Uh, no more ad hominem than yourself. I am only discussing and pointing out flaws. It is easy to hide behind the accusation of ad hominem. Of you put that accusation forth on that basis your claim of being opinionated is ad hominem.
Why do you keep posting that quote of yours? It proves you could not understand what I have written before. It is an argument I have never opposed.
Homosexuality is not against God's system as He rendered some creatures, including animals, homosexual. It is not disobeying His laws. And I echo again "Mocking the homosexual is proving that one is not a Muslim".
Being Muslim is more than only submission to God as I stated previously but submission, if you wish to use that awkward word, is only part of Islam. Living in harmony with creation by following God's design and purification of oneself is the all-in-one of Muslim. Abide by laws is a sterile definition belonging to sectarian Islam which you claim I have not separated from, one ad hominem from you.
But I must have patience I guess. Your English is probably why I get flawed logical responses and if you only knew how identical our posts are yet different wordings.
God bless you
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Salaam,
I am no more aggressive than you are. I feel pretty relaxed.
God bless you
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Salam
Except, I gave full reasons, quoting the mistakes, asking your reasons and supported all my arguments with ayats from the Qur'an, which is, critical thinking and logical reasoning. That is not aggressive, ad hominem or boasting with ultimate knowledge and accuracy, but it is the process of reasoning; ie. the identification of good reasoning and fallacy.
Is he then
who has with him
clear proof from his Lord
and a witness from Him recites it
and before it (is) the Book of Musa, a guide and a mercy? <- confirming
These believe in it <- Only these people believe in the Qur'an
and whoever of the (different) parties disbelieves in it
surely it is the truth from your Lord
but most men do not believe
(1117)Okay, it seems you have no ayats to support your argument and it is just your "wishful thinking" and "rambling". Good lucks!
Peace.
Conclusion
Muslim is the one who lives like a Muslim and it is not necessarily bound to Quran which is a guidebook. It is not a fixed label for specific people.
Allah clearly says
And whoever seeks a "dnan" (ا other than Islam <- "surrender and submission"
it will NEVER be accepted of him <- Do you have a choice if Allah say "NEVER"?
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)The words Islam and Muslim come from the same three letter root word (s,l and m). Islam by definition means "surrender and submission" only to the one true creator. A muslim by definition means "one who surrenders and submits to the laws of God".
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Salaam,
There was one problem though, and that was that you completely misunderstood most of what I wrote and that I suspect was due to linguistic issues. You get aggressive now that you understand absolutely nothing of what I have written and claim that I argue against it too.
What kind of claim do you want support for? There is absolutely no wishful thinking or rambling going on here (ad hominem again from your part)
Seeks a system other than God's system, well who says I seek another system than His? (ad hominem) And Islam means more than only surrender and submission from a linguistic view, ask the Arabic experts here, ask Pazuzu or even Mazhar or any other knowledeable person and I suppose they will tell you it cannot simply be translated into Submission. My addition with 'harmony' can be included in the meaning of Islam. Some early attempts were to put Muslim into Peacemaker, but it is also not accurate.
What I wrote previously about the behavior and mindfulness of God is what goes under the definition Islam. Being mindful and purifying oneself is one of the "real pillars" of Islam.
- Belief in God
- Believe His system
- Purifying oneself through a righteous living.
Are you going to argue the backbone of Islam now? The above part IS Islam. The same reason you greet a fellow Muslim with Salaam wishing him harmony and good health (so many things with one single word). You are not telling him "Submit! (now!)" I have begun to say "fare thee well" in English which might be a possible substitute.
And all from the start from my part has been logical reasoning. And I have a critical approach whenever necessary. Where you see "aggression" from my part is simply because you mirror those emotions in yourself. I see a big ego and well I have to admit I might be a bit provoked to reply to put a besserwisser down by overwhelming shrewdness while it is in fact pretty meaningless. There is actually nothing I need to prove to you, but I want people to not be misled by others by intervening where necessary.
First of all you could make people believe that homosexuality is something rendering someone a non-Muslim which could be a gross offense not only to the people you talk about but also to God and His creations. You perhaps make the person called "Bookish" lose faith in Quran as he might believe that the Quran actually tells him that he is no Muslim because of his involuntary sexual alignment.
If it was not for Bookish and other people here I would not engage in this discussion. And for some reason you have responded with completely irrelevant information while doing so.
I have sensed that you invent rules in Islam which are not there while accusing others of doing both the same and other wrongdoings. Since when did you decide that Allah is the definite name of the One God or since when did you decide that homosexuals are not Muslims? Did God say that those who were born a certain way were to be called non-Muslims? Is being Muslim not something to be mirrored from someone's conduct?
Look at the personalities of the Messengers and Prophets, there you have your role-models and they followed God's ways. Were they obstinate people who were arrogant and argued pointless facts?
I am sure you have good things to add to our community, brother, but there are certain things you need to pay attention to. And why I have said earlier that you may presume too much without sound evidence.
I may have my ways of articulating myself, but I am not changing God's Message or adding teachings since I am only authorized to use that scripture as a foundation of my faith. And Quran is a set of guidelines which were sent down as a mercy and a blessing from the Lord and not a book intended for idolization. One can learn tremendous amounts of good things from it, but it does not replace one's brain and reasoning and ability to use common sense. It was only the Messenger Muhammad who that access to the Quran, but all the previous Messengers did not have the Quran and did they not manage to be good Muslims without it? It is no doubt that humans cannot keep from idolatry. If it is not the Messenger it turns to the scripture itself. I say be mindful of God and purify yourselves; for that you barely need a dusty old book from about 1400 years ago, even if it happens to contain much Wisdom.
What does it help being able to read and parrot phrases from Quran, even though in English, when one does not consider what was written on a larger scale?
Like I have written several times in the forum; "Man cannot live by words alone...", allegedly spoken by Jesus (Isa), the Messenger. It does not matter if it was not his actual words, they are one of the most perfect sayings I have heard/read. I am not sure what you think of me now but I see you as a brother not completely lost but in need of certain guidance. May the Lord guide you. Try to put less focus on proving people wrong and preaching the Message and instead acting out on your words in your life and perhaps listen to what people actually say.
There is really not much I have done in preaching here but rather defended someone you belittle by unrighteously calling them non-Muslim while receiving irrelevant responses to my posts which has led into this pointless discussion and ad hominem as you call it. I have responded appropriately and reasonably courteously to your accusations of being wrong despite that I said exactly the same thing as you do and I suspect linguistic problems may be the cause.
I am not sure what kind of ayat you are expecting to prove what case which you accuse me of wishful thinking and rambling?
If you accuse dear brother Bookish of being a non-Muslim on a non-existent basis then it is not wishful thinking and rambling but rather righteous defense.
God bless you
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Salaam,
"Ad hominem - attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument"
This is an ad hominem simply posting that pyramid.
God bless you
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Salaam,
You do not grasp the phrase "not necessarily bound to Quran" in the intended way. It does not mean I am wrong.
Do you want me to care to elaborate? I mean that one does not have to be bound to Quran to be "labelled" Muslim as one may never have encountered Quran before. The Quran is a bonus to mankind, a blessing and a mercy from the Lord. Everyone that believes the Message and lives by it is a Muslim.
God bless you
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Salam
You are rambling without any ayat from the Qur'an.
How hard for you to show one ayat to prove a Muslim can I'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God", and still be a Muslim?
Call anyone you like, just show me one ayat from the Qur'an.
Peace