What is FEMINISM? Is feminism an insult word?
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I've spent most of my life believing that the role of Women seems to be based on not serving men but putting up with their annoying habits.
Since reading the Quran I feel that has backed up my belief.
So I'm a self confessed Feminist, men are trash, Women have true capability to be pure, they deserve every right we can afford onto them, the life of a Woman is surely worth more than a man. A Woman is a tool for creation, a man is a tool for destruction.
Obviously I'm not totally one sided, but this is how its felt like to me during my life.
Huruf is right, usually the term is used as an insult but if its insulting for a Woman to have an equal or (even better) a greater claim than a man then I'm quite happy to be 'insulted' by such a term.
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I've spent most of my life believing that the role of Women seems to be based on not serving men but putting up with their annoying habits.
Since reading the Quran I feel that has backed up my belief.
So I'm a self confessed Feminist, men are trash, Women have true capability to be pure, they deserve every right we can afford onto them, the life of a Woman is surely worth more than a man. A Woman is a tool for creation, a man is a tool for destruction.
Obviously I'm not totally one sided, but this is how its felt like to me during my life.
Huruf is right, usually the term is used as an insult but if its insulting for a Woman to have an equal or (even better) a greater claim than a man then I'm quite happy to be 'insulted' by such a term.
Bit in bold. I stopped reading there. The word hypocrite springs to mind. You don't like to be insulted but you are fine throwing out insults.
My opinion is that men and women are equal. God created men and women as pairs. Men are to be protectors of women and women are to be loyal to the man and show respect and likewise the man should respect the woman also, she is the mother of his kids. Both sexes have strengths and weaknesses and therefore men and women complete and compliment each other.
If this is a thread designed to throw outlandish and crass insults out towards men, then you are all no better than those men you criticize for being sexist.
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Bit in bold. I stopped reading there. The word hypocrite springs to mind. You don't like to be insulted but you are fine throwing out insults.
My opinion is that men and women are equal. God created men and women as pairs. Men are to be protectors of women and women are to be loyal to the man and show respect and likewise the man should respect the woman also, she is the mother of his kids. Both sexes have strengths and weaknesses and therefore men and women complete and compliment each other.
If this is a thread designed to throw outlandish and crass insults out towards men, then you are all no better than those men you criticize for being sexist.
Where did I say I don't like to be insulted, I said I'd be happy to be 'insulted' as a 'feminist' because I wouldn't consider it an insult. I'm quite aware that I am insulting my own gender with my words, I say it because its true and I'm fully aware of that.
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Where did I say I don't like to be insulted, I said I'd be happy to be 'insulted' as a 'feminist' because I wouldn't consider it an insult. I'm quite aware that I am insulting my own gender with my words, I say it because its true and I'm fully aware of that.
But it isn't true though is it?? it's a big generalization on your part. Saying it is true, does not make it such. Whatever agenda you are trying to push, do not try and speak for every living man out there, because we don't all share the same philosophies on life and humanity and everything else in between.
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But it isn't true though is it?? it's a big generalization on your part. Saying it is true, does not make it such. Whatever agenda you are trying to push, do not try and speak for every living man out there, because we don't all share the same philosophies on life and humanity and everything else in between.
Interesting line of defence, as it insinuates that I was denying anyone else a voice, which I wasn't. Saying 'because its true' was merely intended as a joyful remark and not the start of a dictatorial regime.
I don't really know where we go from here, so I hope your going to stop distracting the topic, I've said my opinion and you've said yours.
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This question is specially for God alone Muslim men.
I have been called a feminist and 'a person with feminist agenda' at least 2 times on this forum. Not only me, but members such as huruf and some other members on here also have experienced this before.
I have been called a feminist-
First by GodsPath who is against my view that 43 is only for helping orphans. Second by GODsubmitter, a Rashad Khalifa staunch follower who says his messengership claim is irrefutable, accepts everything he taught and seems to accept his translation of Qur'an as infallible.First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
Next, what is feminism? Is feminism a negative thing?
I never said women and men are same but equal. Doesn't Qur'an say that men and women are equal? But this GODsubmitter guy said something like "women receive less in inheritance and one man is equal to two women is testimony" then used the word 'feminist agenda' against me because I disagree with RK's translation of idriboohunne in 434.
GodsPath also did the same before because I told him that 43 is only for helping orphans, not traditional type of polygamy.I thought gender discrimination only exists among sectarians but also among God-alone muslims. I have witnessed myself on this forum that there are Quranists who say that it is okay to have sex with slaves, maids and use 43 to prove the superiority of men over women.
God-alone men, can you humbly, kindly and honestly answer here?
Salaam,
I think you know my understanding already so I will not write anything here.
But I write because I want to say that if Qur'an advocates any kind of inequity it is most likely due to misinterpretation and if you would use the traditional understanding it would mean God is a tyrant and advocates inequity. Now it is not the case because every case of issues is due to our own short-comings when we try to read and interpret the Book.
First of all what kind of jerk-head would think that God would allow men to beat their wives into obedience?
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in red.
This question is specially for God alone Muslim men.
I have been called a feminist and 'a person with feminist agenda' at least 2 times on this forum. Not only me, but members such as huruf and some other members on here also have experienced this before.
I have been called a feminist-
First by GodsPath who is against my view that 43 is only for helping orphans. Second by GODsubmitter, a Rashad Khalifa staunch follower who says his messengership claim is irrefutable, accepts everything he taught and seems to accept his translation of Qur'an as infallible.First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
Next, what is feminism? Is feminism a negative thing?
It depends upon who is being asked. I call myself a feminist. Feminism at its best seeks equality for women. IMO, feminism when not taken to extremes, (extremes in ANYTHING is bad), is positive.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
I never said women and men are same but equal. Doesn't Qur'an say that men and women are equal?
I'm not sure where this is said...but I hold this belief that they are equal whether it is stated or not.
But this GODsubmitter guy said something like "women receive less in inheritance and one man is equal to two women is testimony" then used the word 'feminist agenda' against me because I disagree with RK's translation of idriboohunne in 434.
GodsPath also did the same before because I told him that 43 is only for helping orphans, not traditional type of polygamy.I thought gender discrimination only exists among sectarians but also among God-alone muslims. I have witnessed myself on this forum that there are Quranists who say that it is okay to have sex with slaves, maids and use 43 to prove the superiority of men over women.
Everybody has flaws of some sort...this does not make the flaws "okay" of course. There are bigots of all kinds here, (including misogynists), and there is great diversity represented on the forums. Look at the number of people visiting/lurking versus the number of registered users! Then again...who needs to learn the most? Is this not a place for learning? Some people will learn, ISA--and some will not. !
God-alone men, can you humbly, kindly and honestly answer here?
Btw, those that throw insults (or words intended to be insulting) might want to consider if they acting in accordance with the Deen.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
For any that have been insulted
3348 And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in GOD; for GOD suffices as an advocate.
People hate when OTHER people are hypocrites! )
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Salaam,
There is trash among both sexes, just that often it happens that men have an advantage due to some physical strengths and women are often put in a disadvantage due to their fair looks. Women often have unfair responsibilities and men can ride a life in luxury while the women are like prisoners in their homes and work the most.
But I would not say that women are better than men. Both have their advantages and they complement each other, especially if they do not oppress each other and instead use each other' s strengths. That is being Muslim as well.
God bless you
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I guess that Mikebloke is talking about the kind of things men get away with because they have imbibed that they can get away with them, because the environment in fact condones a lot to men and very little to women. So, no wonder that more males tend to be disgusting more times than women, because they are taught by the environment that nothing wrong happens if they act like that. It takes a real honest and thoroughly moral man not to take advantage of the obvious privileges for badness that males enjoy. Nobody is good or bad for the mere fact of being born as a certain sex, but certainly those who get dudos or at least no consequences for being treacherous, false, hypocrites, lazy, exploiters, cruel, etc. etc., it is understandable that are going to more abundant than if they got something coming to them every time the show those "nice" traits. So it is the whole outlook on humanity that we must change, and make societies more loving of good things and good deeds instead of being what they are now approvers of success or submitters to the more ruthless in whatever circumstance.
Salaam
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Peace Yuliana.
I would not worry about the men in this forum, or at least most of them.I think?
I do not know " Godspath"! But I can assure you , from my conversations with Godsumitter that he is fair, He is not going to ask women to wear Hijabs and he certainly is not going to beat a woman.I hope!
Those who are God conscious and know are going to meet their creator will be peaceful, tolerant, patient and responsible with all His creation whether they are men or women. They will not oppress Anyone.
Call to your point of view with wisdom, and good argument. Stick to your values . Defend what is right and do not let others anger you. There are always those who do not care about others.They pursue their own interest and feed their big egos. They oppress women and whoever stands on their way.Ignore them.Be confident and believe in yourself.
As far as God is concerned the best of us are those that reverence Him , are humble caring and just.
It does not matter what gender, creed or nationality you happen to be.
Peace to you.
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I guess that Mikebloke is talking about the kind of things men get away with because they have imbibed that they can get away with them, because the environment in fact condones a lot to men and very little to women. So, no wonder that more males tend to be disgusting more times than women, because they are taught by the environment that nothing wrong happens if they act like that. It takes a real honest and thoroughly moral man not to take advantage of the obvious privileges for badness that males enjoy. Nobody is good or bad for the mere fact of being born as a certain sex, but certainly those who get dudos or at least no consequences for being treacherous, false, hypocrites, lazy, exploiters, cruel, etc. etc., it is understandable that are going to more abundant than if they got something coming to them every time the show those "nice" traits. So it is the whole outlook on humanity that we must change, and make societies more loving of good things and good deeds instead of being what they are now approvers of success or submitters to the more ruthless in whatever circumstance.
Salaam
Salaam
It is the vain desires in this world and unjust approval that makes people do the things they do. Humans are praise-junkies and adore rewards, no matter social or material ones (idolatry?), so this shapes the badness of them leading to unrighteousness and less humble behavior.
It is not foreign to us that certain behavior is rewarded and it is often a social pressure and stress to become rich or other motives, and with pressure humans (I saw a documentary about innate goodness in humans which proves this) tend to cheat more to reach their goals even if it means giving unfair treatment to their fellow humans.
Sadly it is not unknown that we humans are very materialistic and it reinforces this behavior. If we did not show such love for items (and the temporary possessions) the world would be a much better place and we would share our belongings with either man or woman without making any distinction. It is not the only problems we have, but materialism and rivalry feeds the inequity in the world. And then some things which are a bit taboo for women are completely okay for men.
On the bottom line I would like to say the biggest problem we have, we humans, is our enormous ego and like we religious people know will be something God will gauge on the Judgment Day. If we shared our wealth, were more helpful and kind, the Earth would be a much better place and not much different from Paradise, but this is unfortunately not the case because it is not in the nature of mankind and it is the reason why we are here in the first place. We need to persevere the harsh conditions among evil people, who will eventually disappear and we can finally relax from the unpleasant conditions. Meanwhile we need not succumb to the temptations of reacting like the stereotypical human even if their behavior is rewarded and be good and charitable humans.
Just smile when they are treating you with inequity, perhaps replying 'peace' and just disregard them because they will have their requital from the Lord. Revenge is not even necessary and pretty unfruitful and I understand why Jesus said that when they hit you on the cheek offer the next. Giving back might feel good for the moment, but in the long run it is just destructive behavior and being good pays off. You waste your energy reacting with aggression and it just fulfills your ego. If they are showing a bad behavior and you return it you might be as guilty as they are. But if they show a bad behavior and you dare react in a humble way even if they humiliate you and mock you while saying you will burn in Hell or you are not a good Muslim or whatever threat then you have a winning concept. Do not feel tempted to react upon the loser's behavior or you will both end up losers. Remember a knowledgeable however arrogant man who considers himself a faithful believer and discusses and claims he is right about whatever he says and no matter if he is right or not and you fight him and it develops into a "firefight" then I mean that you are as guilty as he is as you really have to prove him wrong even if he actually is wrong and do not just back off and return humble. He may mock and ridicule you and taunt you for your silly or irrational behavior, but the wise one will meet it with friendliness and humbleness. This is what I call the optimal Believer and I know it is difficult to react this way during a real-life situation, but try!
I mean you have no reason to give back or prove someone wrong and poor behavior is what God will judge on anyway except honest belief in God and His realm, so the knowledgeable "son of a bitch" will eventually have to answer in front of God for his doings. And knowledge is likely not something God will care about at all in the courtroom on the Judgment Day but He will compare the unrighteous acts versus the good deeds and knowing things in detail is not a determining factor. God never said anything that he will measure the Believers' right to salvation on gained knowledge and we can say that this is rather considered wealth. No wealth will help anyone enter the gates of Heaven.
Knowledge is a blessing and covers this world but has no relevance when we change to the next.
What measures a person's right for salvation is this
- Belief in God
- Belief in the realm of God
- The level of righteousness
I am sorry I just felt I had to delve off-topic here as I got the flow running and I am aware it was not really in the right spot. I hope we can all love each other and fight less over nothing.
And one thing worth considering about when we fight over prayers and other things; God did not say that getting things wrong because of ignorance as long as one is steadfast and struggle to believe will be an unforgivable sin at the end of days. Intention and pureness of heart can cover many errors in one's practices. In fact I do not think it matters if you do three prayers per day instead of five out of ignorance as long as you tried or even if you misunderstood it completely and did not do Salat in a traditional regard (assuming traditional is right) and with;
- Belief in God
- Belief in the realm of God
- The level of righteousness
; you will likely enter God's kingdom anyway. It is a comfort for all those honest hearts out there who are not 100% certain about anything concerning their religion (I am absolutely not sure at all!) and are afraid that they will be judged for it on the Judgment Day. I am sure it is not going to matter anything at all, not even slightest as long as you fulfill the above three criteria.
And apart from belief in God and the realm the emphasis is on BEHAVIOR, yes BEHAVIOR. Be a good man/woman and all is going to be fine for you. You do not need all the details and if you just understood this you have reached far.
Remember that the next time you fight over whether Muhammad was a Messenger or not or some other strange parameter. Your mocking and ridiculing over their standpoint will be counted negatively for you in God's courtroom while the person who erroneously was mistaken about the Prophet was likely not punished for his mistake.
This is a reminder to myself too as I am not perfect and I have done it before, but I want to better myself. I try to highlight it to myself whenever my ego causes me to forget.
God bless you
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I guess that Mikebloke is talking about the kind of things men get away with because they have imbibed that they can get away with them, because the environment in fact condones a lot to men and very little to women. So, no wonder that more males tend to be disgusting more times than women, because they are taught by the environment that nothing wrong happens if they act like that. It takes a real honest and thoroughly moral man not to take advantage of the obvious privileges for badness that males enjoy. Nobody is good or bad for the mere fact of being born as a certain sex, but certainly those who get dudos or at least no consequences for being treacherous, false, hypocrites, lazy, exploiters, cruel, etc. etc., it is understandable that are going to more abundant than if they got something coming to them every time the show those "nice" traits. So it is the whole outlook on humanity that we must change, and make societies more loving of good things and good deeds instead of being what they are now approvers of success or submitters to the more ruthless in whatever circumstance.
Salaam
Don't even get me started on the number of women who can also be just as disgusting if not more so than men. I've encountered a lot of disgusting women in my life time, both in attitude, conduct and lacking in morals and values too.
You will find idiots in both sexes and I will refuse to condemn an entire sex or say one is better than the other. it's not a competition, both men and women have a role to play and I look more so to attitude and conduct, how people are with me, I will treat them in kind. That is far more important than this men v women stuff.
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It depends upon who is being asked. I call myself a feminist. Feminism at its best seeks equality for women. IMO, feminism when not taken to extremes, (extremes in ANYTHING is bad), is positive.
Like
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Don't even get me started on the number of women who can also be just as disgusting if not more so than men. I've encountered a lot of disgusting women in my life time, both in attitude, conduct and lacking in morals and values too.
You will find idiots in both sexes and I will refuse to condemn an entire sex or say one is better than the other. it's not a competition, both men and women have a role to play and I look more so to attitude and conduct, how people are with me, I will treat them in kind. That is far more important than this men v women stuff.
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Again you are saying the same as other people, n obody here has said that all men are bad or that all women are good. It is clear no need to set anybody right, because you are saying the same thing as others. that is not debated, what is debated is whether the treatment of women en societies conforms to what is just, right, fair and conforms to equity or not. It does not. And nobody is with the stuff ,men versus women and vicevers. That assumption on your part is quite offensive. What people who call themselves feminists in this thread have said and propound is fairnes and equity with all people, and not that because of sex people be worse treated and suffer, suffer, suffer in ways that cannot be justified.
I do not know whether you are male or female, and I could not are less, but seems that for you the suffering of people because of injsutice en dealings in society is something no to be taken account of. That is very comfortable and self engrandising for those females that have got the advantages of both worlds, but it is cruel, horribly cruel for those who are caught to a lesser or greater extent in the traps of world that is cruel and disdainful to women. To men too. But that is whe whole point. When mistreatment of a sex takes place because of the unfair privileges given to the other, BOTH end up the worse for it.
You are free to feel yourself disengaged of other peoples experience and feelings, but it is rather contemtuous to twist what they say in order to set make them appear as whims. And when people do that, what they do is encourage the worst in both sexes. The good and generous males have to watch how their goodness is of no avail, because it is the other males who cheat ant extort who get all the privileges. So, when somebody ignores deliberately the ills of his o her society he or she is not helping to improve it at all.
Your talk is like those who say that there is no need for feminism in islam because Islam has given women all her rights. Therefore there is aboslutely nothing to do. Burying the head in the sand. That is either deliberate support to injustice or cowardice.
So, please, spare the tirades on the women versus men stuff. You know perfectly it is not so. No sincere feminist or struggler for justice is propounding anything like that. Quite the opposite. It is because we believe in the fundamental and essential dignity of ALL human beings why we seek to vindicate the best qualities of males and females and for them to be respectful and considerate fo each other, as individuals and as persons of either sex. Pushing all the dirt under the carpet and keeping privileges and fictions, that is indeed pushing men against women, women agaisnt women and men against men.
Salaam
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Man of Faith,
I appreciate your posts ) Thank you.
But can you share your own definition of feminism?
I created this thread not to throw insult to men but I was feeling so sad with the word 'feminist agenda' used against me just because I disagree with wife-beating.
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First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
God-alone men, can you humbly, kindly and honestly answer here?
peace,
honestly, first do u accept those mentioned above.
what ever you accept and if your heart is in peace, then it is the approving words of Allah giving you the peacefulness in your heart. if u consult with others who do not accept your choice then u are allowing them to make u disobey your God.
whatever u accept and ur heart is not in peace, then u are against the words of Allah. now, if you consult with others to know whether u or right you are allowing chaiytan to make u follow him.
those words from discussion/consultation which increases your peace of mind strengthens u in the path of your God. those discussion which removes ur peace of mind, destroys your belief in God/straight path without ur knowing it is happening.
p.s i wish God-Alone. but i do not know i'm a muslim or not.
peace.
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I tend to dislike all labels... but I know that isn't always a practical approach.
I don't like the term 'feminism'... however, I support what it stand for when it stands for equality and work to remove injustices, inequalities and discrimination. The reason I don't like the label itself is that labels quickly loses its original meaning and takes on various other twisted meanings. Some people use the label 'feminist' as it should be used, in the good sense, but others use it only as a tool, to insult, ridicule or manipulate. Everyone has different motives.
I don't call myself feminist... and I don't even call myself muslim. I insist on calling myself 'human being'. I see people as human beings first and foremost, and as men or women only when necessary. I know that in some cultures all focus is on the gender. I think this is very limiting.Peace
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Salaam Yuliana,
I think I have Zulf's understanding.
God bless you
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I guess that Mikebloke is talking about the kind of things men get away with because they have imbibed that they can get away with them, because the environment in fact condones a lot to men and very little to women. So, no wonder that more males tend to be disgusting more times than women, because they are taught by the environment that nothing wrong happens if they act like that. It takes a real honest and thoroughly moral man not to take advantage of the obvious privileges for badness that males enjoy. Nobody is good or bad for the mere fact of being born as a certain sex, but certainly those who get dudos or at least no consequences for being treacherous, false, hypocrites, lazy, exploiters, cruel, etc. etc., it is understandable that are going to more abundant than if they got something coming to them every time the show those "nice" traits. So it is the whole outlook on humanity that we must change, and make societies more loving of good things and good deeds instead of being what they are now approvers of success or submitters to the more ruthless in whatever circumstance.
Salaam
Yes, I think this is what I feel and said in much better words. I just say it so crudely because that is how I've grown up and with issues like this I can't 'mature' my opinion to something acceptable to masses. Hence the open condemnation of my own gender.
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This question is specially for God alone Muslim men.
I have been called a feminist and 'a person with feminist agenda' at least 2 times on this forum. Not only me, but members such as huruf and some other members on here also have experienced this before.
I have been called a feminist-
First by GodsPath who is against my view that 43 is only for helping orphans. Second by GODsubmitter, a Rashad Khalifa staunch follower who says his messengership claim is irrefutable, accepts everything he taught and seems to accept his translation of Qur'an as infallible.First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
Maybe my friend (the past earthdom) know more about you than me, but I already read some of your discussion in this forum, but no one members I found in here calls you feminist or somethings but maybe just your perception.
In THIS THREAD.
While I try to ask members in here peacefully to get proper translation of qawaam in 434, you suddenly accuse me for supporting "worship husband" or female slavery.Plus you didn't answer my question, what do you mean "worship husband"??
Maybe because you live in the USA, I know most of American live in a carefree n liberal live, like call their parrents with their name.In my place, this action will be labeled as the big tresspassing.Don't always see "obey husband" as a negative things.In Asia especially in east, south, southeastern n middle eastern hermisphere, no matter of their countries, religions, the "obeying husband" is the symbol of the pride of the wife.The wife will be labeled as good wife, if they can "serve" their husband and educate their children with peaceful and lovely heart.
Wife who not "obey" husband in here often labeled as "broken home" or "heretic wife" by their neighboors .I live in Java island and a wife didn't obey the husband will be labeled as durhaka or derhaka in Malay.
This is why the God choose the word "qaanitat" in 665 and it's absulute means is obedient, because this verse's context is talk about characteristic of good wife.
Meanwhile according to some statictics and research, a family withouth obedient wife, the husband will get more short age rather than another husbands and pottentialy the family will became a broken home.
Yuliana, you said like that because you see "obedient" from sectarian muslims prespective not by wide meaning.Yes maybe in some radicals muslim, the beating, or even kills is targeting a wive.This is not called true "obedient" but forced slavery.
Beside this if wife is agree to obedient, the husband must fill the family's need especially the wive's.Like in some Quran verses, if husband must pay mahr to his wive, became a supporter and protector to his wive not made her as forced slave like you called Salafist do, Yuliana.
The conclusion is please take any case with wisdom and not by one-sided prespective
Salaam