Gay and Muslim?
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Salam
Similarly, we need a hadith to amend these rules from the Qur'an, and make it fit with new influences and satisfy sexual needs. yes
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
(7029-31)Guide us to the straight path
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor
not of those who have evoked anger
or of those who are astray
(al-Fatihah 6-7)Indeed, you approach men with desire
instead of women
Rather, you are a transgressing people."
(781)Relevant ayats (415-16)
a surah
which We have sent down
and made obligatory
and revealed therein verses of clear evidence
that you might remember
The woman
or man
found guilty of <- nature of offence - "sexual intercourse" - guilty
sexual intercourse <- Comparison - (7029-31) above - Can gay commit sexual intercourse?
lash each one of them with a hundred lashes
and do not be taken by pity for them
in the deen of Allah
if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day
And let a group of the believers witness their punishment
(241-2)(refer here)
Comparison
(2011 Edition)
And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.Dr. Kamal Omar
And the two males who come in this (homosexuality) from amongst you, punish those two. Then if they both amended and both reformed (themselves) then you people leave those two (free). Surely Allah is Oft-Returning, continuously Merciful.And if two of your men commit themselves to the same evil line of conduct (homosexuality) do punish them both. But if they repent and abandon wrong-doing, then disregard their past act and do not reproach them to induce mental pain; Allah has always accepted true repentance and the atonement made by the people; He has always been Tawabun (Relenting) and Rahimun.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.Yusuf Ali (Orig. 193
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.Wahiduddin Khan
If two men commit a like abomination, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. God is forgiving and merciful.Abdel Haleem
If two men commit a lewd act, punish them both; if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone- God is always ready to accept repentance, He is full of mercy.Ahmed Ali
If two (men) among you are guilty of such acts then punish both of them. But if they repent and reform, let them be, for God accepts repentance and is merciful.Aisha Bewley
If two men commit a like abomination, punish them. If they make tawba and reform, leave them alone. Allah is Ever-Returning, Most Merciful.Talal A. Itani (new translation)
If two men among you commit it, punish them both. But if they repent and reform, leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Full of Mercy.Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and change, leave them alone, for God is Oft-Returning, the Merciful Redeemer.Amatul Rahman Omar
And if two of your males commit the same (act of indecency), then punish them both, so if they repent and amend (keeping their conduct good) then turn aside from them, verily Allah is Oft-Returning (with compassion), Ever Merciful.Muhammad Asad
And punish both of the guilty parties; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.M. M. Pickthall
And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.Shakir
And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
And those two who among you approach that, then penalize them both. Then, if they repented and made things right, then, turn aside from them. Truly, God had been Accepter of Repentance, Compassionate.T.B.Irving
If two of you should indulge in it, trounce them both. If they repent and reform, then ostracize them both. God is Relenting, Merciful.Abdul Majid Daryabadi
And as for those twain of you who commit it, hurt them both; then, if they repent and amend, turn away from them; verily Allah is Relenting, Merciful.Ali ?nal
When two from among you have committed it, then punish them both by scolding and beating; but if they are remorseful and repent, and make amends, then withdraw from them. Assuredly, God is He Who accepts repentance and returns it with liberal forgiveness, All-Compassionate.Ali Quli Qara'i
Should two among you commit it, chastise them both; but if they repent and reform, let them alone. Indeed Allah is all-clement, all-merciful.Hamid S. Aziz
And if two of you commit it, then punish them both; but if they repent and amend, leave them alone, verily, Allah is easily Relenting, Merciful.Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
And (as for) the two of you who come up with (an obscenity), then hurt them both. Yet, in case they (both) repent and act righteously, then veer away from them (both); surely Allah has been Superbly Relenting, Ever-Merciful.Muhammad Sarwar
If any two people commit fornication, punish them. If they repent and reform, let them go. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.Muhammad Taqi Usmani
Those two of you who commit it, chastise both of them. However, if they repent and make amends, then, overlook them. Surely, Allah is Most- Relenting, Very-Merciful.Shabbir Ahmed
If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.Syed Vickar Ahamed
And the two persons among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both; And if they repent and improve, leave them alone; Surely, Allah Forgives and Accepts repentance (Tawwab), Most Merciful (Raheem).Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.Farook Malik
And the two, whether married or unmarried, who are guilty of this offense, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. Surely Allah is the Acceptor of Repentance, Merciful.Dr. Munir Munshey
Punish those of you _ both, man and woman _ who commit (such a deed). If they (relent and) repent and mend their ways, then leave them alone. Of course, Allah accepts repentance! He is the most Merciful!Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
And the two persons who commit adultery from amongst you, punish them both. Then, if they repent and mend (their) ways, refrain from punishing them. Indeed, Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever-Merciful.Maududi
Punish both of those among you who are guilty of this sin, then if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. For Allah is always ready to accept repentance. He is All-Compassionate.(2013 Edition)
And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.Bijan Moeinian
As far as two among you found guilty of indecency, punish them. If they repent, leave them alone as God is the Most Merciful and He accepts people?s repentance.Faridul Haque
And punish them both, the man and the woman, whoever are guilty of it (adultery); then if they repent and become pious, leave them; indeed Allah is the Most Acceptor Of Repentance, Most Merciful.Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
If two among you commit it punish them both. If they repent and make amends, leave them alone. Allah is the Relenter, the Merciful.Maulana Muhammad Ali
And as for the two of you who are guilty of it, give them both a slight punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them. Surely Allah is ever Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
And those who (B/M), they both come/do/commit it from you, so harm them (B), so if they (B) repented, and they (B) corrected, so turn away from them, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.Sher Ali
And if two from among you are guilty of it, punish them both. And if they repent and amend, then leave them alone; surely ALLAH is Oft-Returning with compassion and is ever Merciful.Rashad Khalifa
The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)
And punish them both, the man and the woman, whoever are guilty of it (adultery); then if they repent and become pious, leave them; indeed Allah is the Most Acceptor Of Repentance, Most Merciful.Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali
And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful.N J Dawood
420 If two men among you commit a lewd act, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. God is forgiving and merciful.Sayyid Qutb
And the two from among you who are guilty of the same, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, then leave them alone. God is the One who accepts repentance, the Merciful.Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli
And when two of you commit it (lewdness) punish them both, but if they repent and amend, then turn aside from them. Verily Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy) , the Merciful.Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry
And when two of you commit indecency, punish them both; but if they repent and make amends, then suffer them to be; God turns, and is All-compassionate.Edward Henry Palmer
And if two of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.George Sale
And if two of you commit the like wickedness, punish them both But if they repent and amend, let them both alone; for God is easy to be reconciled and merciful.John Medows Rodwell
And if two men among you commit the same crime, then punish them both; but if they turn and amend, then let them be for God is He who turneth, Merciful!Peace all peace
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continue..
It is clear that Allah is lenient with homosexual, PROVIDED, they reform and restrain themselves.
If they repent and amend, then leave them alone.
otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".
found guilty of <- nature of offence - "sexual intercourse" - guilty
sexual intercourse <- Comparison - (7029-31) above - Can gay commit sexual intercourse?Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".
(e.g. punishments for unintentional murder or accidental death)
This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if you are so and so influential person or celebrities.
Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "sexual intercourse", sura (415-16) says punish them, and sura (241-2) says what is their punishment; "... a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail..." (111)
and made obligatory
lash each one of them with a hundred lashes
and DO NOT be taken by pity for them
in the deen of Allah
if you should believe in Allah and the Last DayAND logically....
How come sexual intercourse between man and woman is grievous, and sexual intercourse between man and man is okay, natural or blessed? hmm
"what you did" = same offence, ie. sexual intercourse
"who you are" = men and women = guilty, men and men = not guilty?I don't understand your logic... nope
Allah Knows Best . These were my views.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
continue..
It is clear that Allah is lenient with homosexual, PROVIDED, they reform and restrain themselves.
otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".
Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".
(e.g. punishments for unintentional murder or accidental death)
This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if you are so and so influential person or celebrities.
Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "sexual intercourse", sura (415-16) says punish them, and sura (241-2) says what is their punishment; "... a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail..." (111)
AND logically....
How come sexual intercourse between man and woman is grievous, and sexual intercourse between man and man is okay, natural or blessed? hmm
"what you did" = same offence, ie. sexual intercourse
"who you are" = men and women = guilty, men and men = not guilty?I don't understand your logic... nope
Allah Knows Best . These were my views.
When the entire verses are read in context, more becomes clear.
415 talks about having at least four witnesses; a witness is someone who observes with their own senses. What is private has no decreed temporal punishment.
242 is talking about the punishment for adultery--extramarital sex for one who is married. 246 makes it clear that the people are married, otherwise how can one spouse accuse the other? hmm
Let's take a closer look at 415 and 416.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness , you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.
2419 As for those who enjoy that lewdness spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in the world and the Hereafter. And GOD knows while you do not know.
In all seriousness, if the lewdness referred to in 415 is homosexuality or even homosexual acts, is this something that spreads? It sounds like lewdness is an STD!
416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend , then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.
472 And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
Perhaps the word that makes the most sense is improve. Note that this word limits the possible meanings of 416.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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If they repent and amend , then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful. .
Perhaps the word that makes the most sense is improve.
Salam
Okay, I don't understand why you are quoting my post and explaining the issue of translation relating to "amend " when the post is explaining about the "punishment for sexual intercourse and homosexual in the Qur'an".
How does it relate? Completely two different and separate topics.
Peace peace
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I admire your ability to make the Qur'an say whatever you have in mind (with the help of wrong translations too) and not what the Qur'an says.
4.15 speaks about prostitutes and orders to take them off the street and give them shelter in the houses, not about punishment.
And 4.16 is not necessarily about two men, it can be a man and a woman, for instance a prostitute and her client.
Salaam
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Salam
No need for further comments, the facts speak for itself.
4.15 speaks about prostitutes and orders to take them off the street and give them shelter in the houses, not about punishment.
Those who commit
unlawful sexual intercourse
of your women <- it is about prostitution? "your" women?
bring against them four from among you <- is this a trial?
And if they testify Is there a sentence in a trial?
confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them <- it is not about punishment?
or Allah ordains for them way <- compare (241-2)
(415)(Principles of Islamic jurisprudence, ie. deterrent, retributive, preventive and reformative etc.)
You should admire yourself.
I admire your ability to make the Qur'an say whatever you have in mind (with the help of wrong translations too) and not what the Qur'an says.
Secondly,
And 4.16 is not necessarily about two men, it can be a man and a woman, for instance a prostitute and her client.
Similarly, no further comment since it is not the real issue in my post. I'm discussing about the punishment for "sexual intercourse" and homosexual, not about man with woman or prostitution. In addition, you've said it, "not necessarily". Do you understand what it means? nope
and
Sex is Marriage? Marriage is Sex? yeah
It is clear that Allah is explaining "the practice of marrying slave girls", when, who, what, how it is allowed and prohibited. Allah is explaining "how to select slave girls for wife". Allah has prohibited to marry "slave girl that commit unlawful intercourse randomly or who take lovers". Allah is not explaining about sex, or "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage".
Please explain how the above ayat is explaining your conclusion that "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". hmm
Do you mind.. please refer me to the ayat rather than jumping from one issue to the other, ignoring all questions with blank denials or personal opinions. You have answered none from the Qur'an, and none from my counter arguments.
We all here just want to hear your reasons, from the Qur'an.
Conclusion...
I don't understand your logic or "sexual" fantasies. A totally different world. (refer here, here and here) hypno
Peace.
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I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Salam ,
***The act of the people of lut was considered as doing al-fahishah
- 7 - 80
And Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit al-fahishah as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds ?
***How The act of al-fahishah is considered in al-qur'an
1690 = allah strictly forbid and ask muslims to avoid al-fahsha / al-fahishah
728 = allah strictly constructed Muhammad his messenger to tell people that allaah do not order al-fahsha / al-fahishah , because there are some poeple who said and they still said that till this days that allaah ask , order , tolerate poeple to do al-fahsha / al-fahishah2945 = the salah strictly forbid al-fahsha / al-fahishah
2268 = satan / al-shaytan ask strictly to act and to do al-fahsha / al-fahishah
2421 = If someone follow the the foot steep of satan / al-shaytan then he will realize and discover that satan / al-shaytan ask , order , tolerate , instruct his people to act and do the al-fahsha / al-fahishah .
2419 = the ones who like that al-fahsha / al-fahishah spread among the believers will be hardly punished in this life and the hereafter
***The people who commit that act are described in the quran as people who act ignorantly
- 27 - 55
2755(What! do you indeed approach men with desire rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.)
***They act Ignorantly , al-jaahilyin , you can find out more here about who are the people who act ignortley
2563 = the opposite of the servant of allaah are the people who act ignortley
3664 = the people who serve others then allaah are the people who act ignortley
7138 = the people who prostrate/worship to the stone status are people acting ignortley
1129 and 4623 = the people who rejected the messenger Hud are people acting ignortley
2 67 = Moses the messenger seek refuge by allaah to not be among the people who act ignortley
635 = allah instructing Muhammad the messenger of allaah to not be like the people who act ignortley
1146 = allah instructing Nuh the messenger of allaah to not be like the people who act ignortley
1233 = Yusuf the messenger of allaah asking allaah to turn away their snare from him to not act like the people who act ignortley
2855 = the people who argue with lies about everything are the people who act ignortley
***The people who commit that act are also described in the quran as people who act Extravagantly
- 7 - 81
781(Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a people who act Extravagantly."
***They act Extravagantly , al-Musrifyin , you can find out more here about who are the people who act Extravagantly
6141 = allaah do not love the people who act extravagantly
731 = allaah do not love the people who act extravagantly
4043 = the people who act extravagantly are the people who will go to the fire
1083 and 4431 = the act of Faro/Fir3awn is described as a act of extravagant , you know the destination of Faro
219 = All the people who rejected the messengers and transgressed was acting extravagantly and was destroyed indeed
26151 = the people who act extravagantly shouldn't be listened to and he should be ignored
Conclusion
***Can you choose between this two cases Do you want to be among case n?1 or Case N?2
Case N?1
--They do not approach al-fahsha / al-fahishah
--al-salah do not tolerate al-fahsha / al-fahishah
--allaah forbid do not order the act of al-fahsha / al-fahishah
--allaah instruct his messengers to not be among the people who act ignorantly
--allaah do not love the people who act extravagantly
Case N?2
--They do al-fahsha / al-fahishah
--Satan / al-shaytaan tolerate and he do order the act of al-fahsha / al-fahishah
--If someone follow the foot steep of Satan / al-shaytaan he will see that he order , ask , tolerate al-fahsha / al-fahishah
--The ones who like that al-fahsha / al-fahishah spread among the believers will be hardly punished in this life and the hereafter
--The people who do the al-fahsha / al-fahishah are people who act ignorantly
--The people who do the al-fahsha / al-fahishah are people who act extravagantly
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Salam
Okay, I don't understand why you are quoting my post and explaining the issue of translation relating to "amend " when the post is explaining about the "punishment for sexual intercourse and homosexual in the Qur'an".
How does it relate? Completely two different and separate topics.
Peace peace
So sorry, you quote your own posts so much, I didn't realize that there was a shyness.
Here is the explanation in even more basic terms. As a necessity, explanation at this level is pretty blunt.
The verses can't mean what you think they mean, as demonstrated by the exact same words used in other places in AQ.
Amend and improve are synonymous, but the word "improve" fits in all places and is a tad clearer.
Even if the words did mean what you think (try substituting your definition in all places where the word occurs, lol), no punishment is applied without four witnesses! Do you dispute about the witnesses?
Homosexuality is not something that can spread--for that matter, neither is fornication. Do you dispute this?
Homosexuality is not something that can be improved/bettered/cured. Do you dispute this?
So then...where is this "homosexuality" that you are referring to coming from--a preconceived notion?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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But if we look attentively at the background of homoproscription in the muslim sphere as we can grasp it today, I am afraid that that is very much so please do not confuse us with women, we belong on the top not with them. Do not spoil the bort for the whole of us. That claim coming from the mass of powerless "muslim" men lead by the overrligiousity that gurantees them, right from heaven, the absolute assuredness of their belonging to the top, and in order for anybody to beling to the top, there must necessarirly be a bottom part Women are the providentially there to be picked and entitled bottom part, no pun intended.
Who knows, we may get to that situation where males get also their bottom part, and the top is kept for the very, very, very top.
So indeed, sex is a very obvious field in whcih power battles are held. And Muslims are at the front of the battles for bottom power. So women, muslim in women societies will have it very difficult for a long time to come, while overreligious males hold on to the special relationship between male chauvinism and heavenly designs.
well fitting pun, no pun intended! Definitely, it's going to be a long battle to get to equal ground, doesn't help that there are centuries of such to overcome but given that brawn is not as useful as it used to be along with the other unique changes in the way we do and see things, I'm cautiously optimistic.peace
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The verses can't mean what you think they mean, as demonstrated by the exact same words used in other places in AQ.
Salam
What I'm writing about? confused
Am I writing about 415 or about the "nature of offence for sexual intercourse" in (7029-31)?
(ie. the words "guilty of sexual intercourse"; "unlawful sexual intercourse is a guilt punishable by whipping", and therefore "whether gay is committing unlawful sexual intercourse" and should receive the same punishment)
Try read again, slowly.
continue..
It is clear that Allah is lenient with homosexual, PROVIDED, they reform and restrain themselves.
If they repent and amend, then leave them alone.
otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".
found guilty of <- nature of offence - "sexual intercourse" - guilty
sexual intercourse <- Comparison - (7029-31) above - Can gay commit sexual intercourse?Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".
(e.g. punishments for unintentional murder or accidental death)
This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if you are so and so influential person or celebrities.
Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "sexual intercourse", sura (415-16) says punish them, and sura (241-2) says what is their punishment; "... a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail..." (111)
and made obligatory
lash each one of them with a hundred lashes
and DO NOT be taken by pity for them
in the deen of Allah
if you should believe in Allah and the Last DayAND logically....
How come sexual intercourse between man and woman is grievous, and sexual intercourse between man and man is okay, natural or blessed? hmm
"what you did" = same offence, ie. sexual intercourse
"who you are" = men and women = guilty, men and men = not guilty?I don't understand your logic... nope
as you can see in (7029-31), they are not guilty because of being a man or woman, but because of committing "unlawful sexual intercourse" and which shall be punishable by whipping. Similarly, being a gay is not an offence, but committing "unlawful sexual intercourse" is an offence.
Guilty for "what you did", not for "who or what you are".
Accordingly and if they are committing the same offence of unlawful sexual intercourse, the "punishment shall also be the same!". They are committing the same unlawful sexual contact and penetration. It is the same offence of "unlawful sexual intercourse", regardless of whether they are straight or homosexual.
Now, how your comment can be related to the above discussion? confused
If they repent and amend , then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.
Perhaps the word that makes the most sense is improve. Note that this word limits the possible meanings of 416.
Amend and improve are synonymous, but the word "improve" fits in all places and is a tad clearer.
Funny!
you must be very confused.
Peace group
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in purple.
Salam
What I'm writing about? confused
Am I writing about 415 or about the "nature of offence for sexual intercourse" in (7029-31)?
Let's look at them both, sequentially.
(ie. the words "guilty of sexual intercourse"; "unlawful sexual intercourse is a guilt punishable by whipping", and therefore "whether gay is committing unlawful sexual intercourse" and should receive the same punishment)
Okay, let's try it your way
2419 As for those who enjoy that spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in the world and the Hereafter. And GOD knows while you do not know.
If this doesn't make sense, it would seem that there is a glaring flaw in the logic that you are presenting.
Now, let's look at 7029-31
7029 And those who keep covered their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
7031 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.6143 Eight in pairs from the lambs two, and from the goats two. Say "Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the wombs of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!"
7030 doesn't say spouses...it says pairs. Although a spouse is a pair, pair is more inclusive than spouse--it would include the pair of one who is homosexual.
Try read again, slowly.
otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".
242 states the punishment for adultery (100 lashes). 415 and 416 state punishments other than lashing for a different crime.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.
416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of GOD if you believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".
(e.g. punishments for unintentional murder or accidental death)
This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if you are so and so influential person or celebrities.
Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "sexual intercourse", sura (415-16) says punish them, and sura (241-2) says what is their punishment; "... a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail..." (111)
AND logically....
How come sexual intercourse between man and woman is grievous, and sexual intercourse between man and man is okay, natural or blessed? hmm
"what you did" = same offence, ie. sexual intercourse
"who you are" = men and women = guilty, men and men = not guilty?I don't disagree that those who are found guilty of misconduct of the specified type are punished according to the crime. What I DO disagree with is that you are glossing over the fact that for any temporal punishment to occur, the accused must have no fewer than four witnesses attesting to the crime. A witness is one who has witnessed the crime with their own senses!
I don't understand your logic... nope
There is no "my" logic...only logic. yes
as you can see in (7029-31), they are not guilty because of being a man or woman, but because of committing "unlawful sexual intercourse" and which shall be punishable by whipping. Similarly, being a gay is not an offence, but committing "unlawful sexual intercourse" is an offence.
Guilty for "what you did", not for "who or what you are".
I never argued against this; btw, are you familiar with a straw man argument?
Accordingly and if they are committing the same offence of unlawful sexual intercourse, the "punishment shall also be the same!". They are committing the same unlawful sexual contact and penetration. It is the same offence of "unlawful sexual intercourse", regardless of whether they are straight or homosexual.
Now, how your comment can be related to the above discussion? confused
My comments may serve, ISA, to those that have eyes to see and brains to reason that traditional understandings and interpretations on this matter are more traditional than truthful. My comments can be verified by juxtaposing words in AQ; the Qur'an is the reference for what I write.
Funny!
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Peace group
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I don't disagree that those who are found guilty of misconduct of the specified type are punished according to the crime. What I DO disagree with is that you are glossing over the fact that for any temporal punishment to occur, the accused must have no fewer than four witnesses attesting to the crime. A witness is one who has witnessed the crime with their own senses!
Salam
First part..
I don't disagree that those who are found guilty of misconduct of the specified type are punished according to the crime.
So there is no contradiction with what I'm saying; ie. Guilty for "what you did", not for "who or what you are". Simple logic, anyone could understand this.
and second part
What I DO disagree with is that you are glossing over the fact that for any temporal punishment to occur, the accused must have no fewer than four witnesses attesting to the crime. A witness is one who has witnessed the crime with their own senses!
Even if the words did mean what you think (try substituting your definition in all places where the word occurs, lol), no punishment is applied without four witnesses! Do you dispute about the witnesses?
Interesting, you don't know the difference between the "Procedural Law" and "Substantive Law", and treat the "Procedural Law" as if it is the "Substantive Law" relating to the offence itself, and yet, still be able to say...
are you familiar with a straw man argument?
My comments may serve, ISA, to those that have eyes to see and brains to reason that traditional understandings and interpretations on this matter are more traditional than truthful. My comments can be verified by juxtaposing words in AQ; the Qur'an is the reference for what I write.
Do you?
This is fun. yes
Lastly, proof...
the accused must have no fewer than four witnesses attesting to the crime. A witness is one who has witnessed the crime with their own senses!
I wonder why the accused want to convict himself, ie. by bringing his witnesses to attest his own crime. confused
That should be very easy, and not just four, but 100 or more witnesses. LOL! laugh
I don't understand your logic.
you must be very confused.
Peace group
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3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Peace group
Salam
It is so true, listen to the Qur'an .. otherwise
I will turn away from My signs
those who are arrogant upon the earth
without right <- (1117) (1039)
and if they should see every sign
they will not believe in it
And if they see the way of consciousness
they will not adopt it as a way
but if they see the way of error
they will adopt it as a way
That is because they have denied Our signs
and they were heedless of them
(7146)But those who deny Our signs
We will progressively lead them
from where they do not know
(7182) (6844-45) (4069-70)May Allah guide us all to truth and keep us on the straight path.
Peace group
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Yulianna, you say
Quote
To say marriage is sex is to say marriage is all about self gratification and it clearly is not. Sex is a part of what takes place in a marriage and god has made it lawful between a husband and a wife, but it's not the one and the same. That's not usually the first thing you think of when you find a partner is it? Don't we look for companion above all else?
Huruf,
Since when did I post that?You misquoted someone else's post.
And my name is Yuliana, with one n only.
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Salaam,
"Straw man discussion" occurred at several parts of this thread. And sarcasm flows rampage.
God bless you
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Huruf,
Since when did I post that?You misquoted someone else's post.
And my name is Yuliana, with one n only.
Indeed, Yuliana, my mistake. Sorry for it. It happens to me sometimes when I only quote a part of a message that I make mistakes and mostly I catch them myself, but obviously not all. No, you did not say that. I think it was learning truth81
Sorry again.
Salaam
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Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
Peace Then who created intersex people? Who created people who have the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male? Who created people born with mosaic genetics (a mix of XX and XY)? Who created males and females that are unable to procreate naturally? Who created homosexual animals (of which humans are one species that show this behaviour)? Who created males with micro penises (so small they are unable to procreate and unable to achieve penetration)? These are physical and genetic differences not just psychological.
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as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
It is only in Western countries that HIV transmission is higher for gay people than straight. In sub Saharan Africa nearly 30 million are HIV positive and as many as 2 million people die a year as a result of severely weakened immune systems. The majority are heterosexual not homosexual. In the last 10 years the majority of new HIV patients world wide have been heterosexual not homosexual. Women also contract HIV so it is not necessarily from male to male sex.
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"Straw man discussion" occurred at several parts of this thread.
Salam
Indeed, a "straw person" ... laugh
A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. The misrepresentation can be intentional or accidental. It is possible to unintentionally misrepresent an opponent's argument by failing to understand it in the first place and honestly communicating what one (wrongly) thinks is the actual argument.; Wikipedia
(refer here)
I believe both of you must be very confused.
Read from the start and there is not a single person who is talking or supporting the ideas of Muslim should oppress homosexual.
All are agreed that there should be no oppression, respect them as human beings, and are talking about "What is the rule in the Qur'an?".
Issue of this thread
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
(the statements thereafter are the "supporting statements" suggesting the importance of this issue, and why the Sunni and Shia should treat them as a Muslim and human beings - which is not necessary since many here are not Sunni or Shia, and are not supporting any oppression)ie. the issue of whether gay is a muslim or non-muslim?
if a muslim, why? which ayat? (refer here)
if a non-muslim, why? which ayat? (refer here)
and if relating to a statement that can be a muslim because of "feelings" (refer here) or "natural" (refer here).. then the issue whether these factors or elements can change God's rules? (refer here and here)
and what is the rule relating to homosexuality? (refer here, which no one is willing to answer, and rather wish to treat as if it is never existed in the Qur'an)
and...
Now, how your comment can be related to the above discussion? confused
Peace