What is FEMINISM? Is feminism an insult word?
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It depends upon who is being asked. I call myself a feminist. Feminism at its best seeks equality for women. IMO, feminism when not taken to extremes, (extremes in ANYTHING is bad), is positive.
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Don't even get me started on the number of women who can also be just as disgusting if not more so than men. I've encountered a lot of disgusting women in my life time, both in attitude, conduct and lacking in morals and values too.
You will find idiots in both sexes and I will refuse to condemn an entire sex or say one is better than the other. it's not a competition, both men and women have a role to play and I look more so to attitude and conduct, how people are with me, I will treat them in kind. That is far more important than this men v women stuff.
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Again you are saying the same as other people, n obody here has said that all men are bad or that all women are good. It is clear no need to set anybody right, because you are saying the same thing as others. that is not debated, what is debated is whether the treatment of women en societies conforms to what is just, right, fair and conforms to equity or not. It does not. And nobody is with the stuff ,men versus women and vicevers. That assumption on your part is quite offensive. What people who call themselves feminists in this thread have said and propound is fairnes and equity with all people, and not that because of sex people be worse treated and suffer, suffer, suffer in ways that cannot be justified.
I do not know whether you are male or female, and I could not are less, but seems that for you the suffering of people because of injsutice en dealings in society is something no to be taken account of. That is very comfortable and self engrandising for those females that have got the advantages of both worlds, but it is cruel, horribly cruel for those who are caught to a lesser or greater extent in the traps of world that is cruel and disdainful to women. To men too. But that is whe whole point. When mistreatment of a sex takes place because of the unfair privileges given to the other, BOTH end up the worse for it.
You are free to feel yourself disengaged of other peoples experience and feelings, but it is rather contemtuous to twist what they say in order to set make them appear as whims. And when people do that, what they do is encourage the worst in both sexes. The good and generous males have to watch how their goodness is of no avail, because it is the other males who cheat ant extort who get all the privileges. So, when somebody ignores deliberately the ills of his o her society he or she is not helping to improve it at all.
Your talk is like those who say that there is no need for feminism in islam because Islam has given women all her rights. Therefore there is aboslutely nothing to do. Burying the head in the sand. That is either deliberate support to injustice or cowardice.
So, please, spare the tirades on the women versus men stuff. You know perfectly it is not so. No sincere feminist or struggler for justice is propounding anything like that. Quite the opposite. It is because we believe in the fundamental and essential dignity of ALL human beings why we seek to vindicate the best qualities of males and females and for them to be respectful and considerate fo each other, as individuals and as persons of either sex. Pushing all the dirt under the carpet and keeping privileges and fictions, that is indeed pushing men against women, women agaisnt women and men against men.
Salaam
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Man of Faith,
I appreciate your posts ) Thank you.
But can you share your own definition of feminism?
I created this thread not to throw insult to men but I was feeling so sad with the word 'feminist agenda' used against me just because I disagree with wife-beating.
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First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
God-alone men, can you humbly, kindly and honestly answer here?
peace,
honestly, first do u accept those mentioned above.
what ever you accept and if your heart is in peace, then it is the approving words of Allah giving you the peacefulness in your heart. if u consult with others who do not accept your choice then u are allowing them to make u disobey your God.
whatever u accept and ur heart is not in peace, then u are against the words of Allah. now, if you consult with others to know whether u or right you are allowing chaiytan to make u follow him.
those words from discussion/consultation which increases your peace of mind strengthens u in the path of your God. those discussion which removes ur peace of mind, destroys your belief in God/straight path without ur knowing it is happening.
p.s i wish God-Alone. but i do not know i'm a muslim or not.
peace.
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I tend to dislike all labels... but I know that isn't always a practical approach.
I don't like the term 'feminism'... however, I support what it stand for when it stands for equality and work to remove injustices, inequalities and discrimination. The reason I don't like the label itself is that labels quickly loses its original meaning and takes on various other twisted meanings. Some people use the label 'feminist' as it should be used, in the good sense, but others use it only as a tool, to insult, ridicule or manipulate. Everyone has different motives.
I don't call myself feminist... and I don't even call myself muslim. I insist on calling myself 'human being'. I see people as human beings first and foremost, and as men or women only when necessary. I know that in some cultures all focus is on the gender. I think this is very limiting.Peace
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Salaam Yuliana,
I think I have Zulf's understanding.
God bless you
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I guess that Mikebloke is talking about the kind of things men get away with because they have imbibed that they can get away with them, because the environment in fact condones a lot to men and very little to women. So, no wonder that more males tend to be disgusting more times than women, because they are taught by the environment that nothing wrong happens if they act like that. It takes a real honest and thoroughly moral man not to take advantage of the obvious privileges for badness that males enjoy. Nobody is good or bad for the mere fact of being born as a certain sex, but certainly those who get dudos or at least no consequences for being treacherous, false, hypocrites, lazy, exploiters, cruel, etc. etc., it is understandable that are going to more abundant than if they got something coming to them every time the show those "nice" traits. So it is the whole outlook on humanity that we must change, and make societies more loving of good things and good deeds instead of being what they are now approvers of success or submitters to the more ruthless in whatever circumstance.
Salaam
Yes, I think this is what I feel and said in much better words. I just say it so crudely because that is how I've grown up and with issues like this I can't 'mature' my opinion to something acceptable to masses. Hence the open condemnation of my own gender.
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This question is specially for God alone Muslim men.
I have been called a feminist and 'a person with feminist agenda' at least 2 times on this forum. Not only me, but members such as huruf and some other members on here also have experienced this before.
I have been called a feminist-
First by GodsPath who is against my view that 43 is only for helping orphans. Second by GODsubmitter, a Rashad Khalifa staunch follower who says his messengership claim is irrefutable, accepts everything he taught and seems to accept his translation of Qur'an as infallible.First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
Maybe my friend (the past earthdom) know more about you than me, but I already read some of your discussion in this forum, but no one members I found in here calls you feminist or somethings but maybe just your perception.
In THIS THREAD.
While I try to ask members in here peacefully to get proper translation of qawaam in 434, you suddenly accuse me for supporting "worship husband" or female slavery.Plus you didn't answer my question, what do you mean "worship husband"??
Maybe because you live in the USA, I know most of American live in a carefree n liberal live, like call their parrents with their name.In my place, this action will be labeled as the big tresspassing.Don't always see "obey husband" as a negative things.In Asia especially in east, south, southeastern n middle eastern hermisphere, no matter of their countries, religions, the "obeying husband" is the symbol of the pride of the wife.The wife will be labeled as good wife, if they can "serve" their husband and educate their children with peaceful and lovely heart.
Wife who not "obey" husband in here often labeled as "broken home" or "heretic wife" by their neighboors .I live in Java island and a wife didn't obey the husband will be labeled as durhaka or derhaka in Malay.
This is why the God choose the word "qaanitat" in 665 and it's absulute means is obedient, because this verse's context is talk about characteristic of good wife.
Meanwhile according to some statictics and research, a family withouth obedient wife, the husband will get more short age rather than another husbands and pottentialy the family will became a broken home.
Yuliana, you said like that because you see "obedient" from sectarian muslims prespective not by wide meaning.Yes maybe in some radicals muslim, the beating, or even kills is targeting a wive.This is not called true "obedient" but forced slavery.
Beside this if wife is agree to obedient, the husband must fill the family's need especially the wive's.Like in some Quran verses, if husband must pay mahr to his wive, became a supporter and protector to his wive not made her as forced slave like you called Salafist do, Yuliana.
The conclusion is please take any case with wisdom and not by one-sided prespective
Salaam
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Earthdom,
You are making false assumption against me. I am neither American nor any type of Westerner.
I am from a Sunni land.I don't understand why wives must obey husbands in everything but husbands are not obliged to follow their wives. I don't understand this s***. Are you following islam or some stupid male-dominated culture? Marriage is not about husband' status is higher than wife's status but marriage is mutual agreement between both of them. A relationship between a husband and a wife must be like special best friends. Both treat each other equally. I am not supporting rebellious wives but I don't ubderstand why wife must be obedient to husband but the husband is just like a big boss who can do everything he wants.
I don't misinterpret people's posts. The word FEMINIST AGENDA has been clearly used against me.
As for the 665, it is about obedient to God, not husbands. Look it context please. Not just take the word obedient or submissive out of context. There are also 'devout', 'worshipping' next to 'submitting' so how can this be context for obeying husband?
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Maybe my friend (the past earthdom) know more about you than me, but I already read some of your discussion in this forum, but no one members I found in here calls you feminist or somethings but maybe just your perception.
In THIS THREAD.
While I try to ask members in here peacefully to get proper translation of qawaam in 434, you suddenly accuse me for supporting "worship husband" or female slavery.Plus you didn't answer my question, what do you mean "worship husband"??
Maybe because you live in the USA, I know most of American live in a carefree n liberal live, like call their parrents with their name.In my place, this action will be labeled as the big tresspassing.Don't always see "obey husband" as a negative things.In Asia especially in east, south, southeastern n middle eastern hermisphere, no matter of their countries, religions, the "obeying husband" is the symbol of the pride of the wife.The wife will be labeled as good wife, if they can "serve" their husband and educate their children with peaceful and lovely heart.
Wife who not "obey" husband in here often labeled as "broken home" or "heretic wife" by their neighboors .I live in Java island and a wife didn't obey the husband will be labeled as durhaka or derhaka in Malay.
This is why the God choose the word "qaanitat" in 665 and it's absulute means is obedient, because this verse's context is talk about characteristic of good wife.
Meanwhile according to some statictics and research, a family withouth obedient wife, the husband will get more short age rather than another husbands and pottentialy the family will became a broken home.
Yuliana, you said like that because you see "obedient" from sectarian muslims prespective not by wide meaning.Yes maybe in some radicals muslim, the beating, or even kills is targeting a wive.This is not called true "obedient" but forced slavery.
Beside this if wife is agree to obedient, the husband must fill the family's need especially the wive's.Like in some Quran verses, if husband must pay mahr to his wive, became a supporter and protector to his wive not made her as forced slave like you called Salafist do, Yuliana.
The conclusion is please take any case with wisdom and not by one-sided prespective
4.34 is not about husbands and wives but about men and women. All men are meant to be supporters, pillars of women, not just the husband, and qanit means devoted, to God, obedient to God. Are you comparing males to God? Are you out of your mind? Do you realise how awful, absolutely horrible and shirk that sounds? Do you, people who think like that, realise how much you are deluding yourselves and how monstruously you are taking God's words in vain? What is that getting you. Conceiving and bearing children is a great commendation direct form God to women, women respond directly to God for that blessing. They are for God, not for males. They do not have to support the males nor obey them they owe obedience to God, directly, no intermediaries.
What you are portraying is a relationship wive-husband which belongs in Saint Paul's invented christianity but which has nothing to do with Qur'an. What is that horrible disaese that afflict males making themselves akin to godship as regards the women. Don't you realise what a monstrosity it is?
Claim as much obedience as you want to, but do not put it on the Qur'an's back. That is too much. Try, for once to take out of your mind the centralship of maleness and get outside that box, you may take advantage of the many translations that many peoploe have provided here, me included, and which are not about obedience to the husbands. But of course you are free to interpret whatever you want, but do not put it on th Qur0an which is not a participant in any boysclub games.
Salaam
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You are making false assumption against me. I am neither American nor any type of Westerner.
I am from a Sunni land.The term "Sunni land" is certain an ambiguous.There are two options
1)Sunni majority country.
2)Sunni Muslim society lies within non-muslim country.But according to facts I get about you
-English is your main language.
This can be known from your youtube channel.
Your english is in native level.
-Your educational system.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605879.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605472.msg330509#msg330509This data is enough to judge from where you really came from.I try to compare two possibilites with your facts.
- Sunni majority country.
-Main languages of Sunni majority countries is not english, and it contrary with your youtube channel.
-All your channel's activities is in english language.If you're not native english speaker, then you must been more use non-english languages, even it's english it will be rarely used.But in fact you used english mostly.
-I never see any sign you speak non english.
So you're not included in option 1.
- Sunni societies lies within a non-muslim country.
-By looking your language pattern, indeed you live in english speaking country.
-By looking your educational system, as I know it's the US system and the more important is you claim if your final exam will be held in November, yes some US schools held that final exam right now.
But this is just my assumption, and I don't care from where you came from, coz it's no use for me.
I don't understand why wives must obey husbands in everything but husbands are not obliged to follow their wives. I don't understand this s***. Are you following islam or some stupid male-dominated culture? Marriage is not about husband' status is higher than wife's status but marriage is mutual agreement between both of them. A relationship between a husband and a wife must be like special best friends. Both treat each other equally. I am not supporting rebellious wives but I don't ubderstand why wife must be obedient to husband but the husband is just like a big boss who can do everything he wants.
Duuh!! You don't read my post properly.
Peace.
- Sunni majority country.
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Something to add to my previous post.
This use of the word obey concenring husbands and wife and a watering down of it saying in fact what amounts to say that obey is nto obey, but something else is a playof words which denotes the compulsion to keep at all costs a privileged position but no to get the opposition to it that would be expected from upholding such privileges unwarrantedly. At any rate is reveals a psychological or identity weakness in a male's psyche. Too bad for them when they need this prop up for their own feeling of satisfaction with whom they are. This fiction seems to mean so much to them...
Keep the fiction at all costs, tisting the Qur'an, play with "obey" does not mean "obey" but it means another "obey" which is a good "obey", not the bad "obey".
Salaam
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This question is specially for God alone Muslim men.
I have been called a feminist and 'a person with feminist agenda' at least 2 times on this forum. Not only me, but members such as huruf and some other members on here also have experienced this before.
I have been called a feminist-
First by GodsPath who is against my view that 43 is only for helping orphans. Second by GODsubmitter, a Rashad Khalifa staunch follower who says his messengership claim is irrefutable, accepts everything he taught and seems to accept his translation of Qur'an as infallible.First of all, are women meant to be stupid, lowly, lower in status, idiotic, must obey men, inferior, deserve to be beaten if they disobey their husbands as last alternative et cetera? Does God create women to be stupid and second-class citizens?
Next, what is feminism? Is feminism a negative thing?
I never said women and men are same but equal. Doesn't Qur'an say that men and women are equal? But this GODsubmitter guy said something like "women receive less in inheritance and one man is equal to two women is testimony" then used the word 'feminist agenda' against me because I disagree with RK's translation of idriboohunne in 434.
GodsPath also did the same before because I told him that 43 is only for helping orphans, not traditional type of polygamy.I thought gender discrimination only exists among sectarians but also among God-alone muslims. I have witnessed myself on this forum that there are Quranists who say that it is okay to have sex with slaves, maids and use 43 to prove the superiority of men over women.
God-alone men, can you humbly, kindly and honestly answer here?
Salaam sister
According to the indictment act, it seems that i am a feminist too.
it seems also that i am not what you call a "quranist"
Peace -
4.34 is not about husbands and wives but about men and women.All men are meant to be supporters, pillars of women, not just the husband, and qanit means devoted, to God, obedient to God. Are you comparing males to God? Are you out of your mind? Do you realise how awful, absolutely horrible and shirk that sounds? Do you, people who think like that, realise how much you are deluding yourselves and how monstruously you are taking God's words in vain? What is that getting you. Conceiving and bearing children is a great commendation direct form God to women, women respond directly to God for that blessing. They are for God, not for males. They do not have to support the males nor obey them they owe obedience to God, directly, no intermediaries.
The term nisaa is more used for wives, ex nisaa' al-nabiyi (appeared in many verses).Please read this verse completly.
Btw the word muslimat, mu'minat and taubat is enough for the "obedient to God" in 665.If we tafseer qanit in 665 as obedient to God also, then it will be a pleonasm.
What you are portraying is a relationship wive-husband which belongs in Saint Paul's invented christianity but which has nothing to do with Qur'an. What is that horrible disaese that afflict males making themselves akin to godship as regards the women. Don't you realise what a monstrosity it is?
You made generalization to hasty.Who cares to St Paul anyways? D
Claim as much obedience as you want to, but do not put it on the Qur'an's back. That is too much. Try, for once to take out of your mind the centralship of maleness and get outside that box, you may take advantage of the many translations that many peoploe have provided here, me included, and which are not about obedience to the husbands. But of course you are free to interpret whatever you want, but do not put it on th Qur0an which is not a participant in any boysclub games.
Carefree wive indeed is not Abrahamic culture and this post already answered by your last post which have similiar point with mine.
Why someone like yu and Yuliana didn't read my post properly, this because both of you pursue your own emotional subjective, so both of u accuse me for nothing.
Indeed I never hate woman at all and look down woman, but I try to give proper position for what is the meaning of wife??
In my culture, there is a motto "Wanita harus dihargai" (Woman must be valued).We have a heroine named Raden Ajeng Kartini, a symbol of woman emancipation.Peace
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I am really tired of you saying 665 is commandment for wives to be submissive and obedient to their husbands.
What about husbands? They can command their wives to do everything they want their wives to but their wives should not command and just simply be obedient? What kind of apartheid is this?665 It may be that he would divorce you, then his Lord will substitute other wives in your place who are better than you; submitting, believing, dutiful, repentant, worshipping, devout, mature and youthful.
Either the translations of the characteristics of wives mentioned in the verse are true or false is not the subject of the discussion. But since you believe that wives must be submissive to their husbands because of the characteristic 'submissive' or 'obedient' mentioned in the verse, that means wives must also be worshipping, devout and repentant to their husbands because those are some of rhe characteristics mentioned in the verse too?Anyways, I am not from the US. If you read in wikipedia or any other websites on education systems by countries,
there are also some other countries that have merit/demerit system, national exams in November. I have Islamic (Sunni-based) subject at school. Muslim girls are forced to wear boring headscarves but Muslims guys and non-Muslim guys are not permitted to keep facial hair / beards.
As for my youtube channel, I don't like to communicate with the people in my country. Many of them suck, they like to bash Shia but their own sect is worse in some aspects. Salafism is rising in my country. -
I am really tired of you saying 665 is commandment for wives to be submissive and obedient to their husbands.
What about husbands? They can command their wives to do everything they want their wives to but their wives should not command and just simply be obedient? What kind of apartheid is this?Since when qanit=dutifull.You exactly don't know anyting what is the meaning of " true obedient".You keep say term like 'Salafist" or something which made me confused.Indeed you're Quranist but influenced by a stereotype.
The term obedient and worshipp is different.I live in a village, "obedient wife" is still part of my culture and most of them have a harmonic families ya know, not as like "Salafist" as you think.
I speaking about fact, not just by baseless stereotype theories.
You will understand bout this if you already became a wife soon ).Anyways, I am not from the US. If you read in wikipedia or any other websites on education systems by countries,
there are also some other countries that have merit/demerit system, national exams in November. I have Islamic (Sunni-based) subject at school. Muslim girls are forced to wear boring headscarves but Muslims guys and non-Muslim guys are not permitted to keep facial hair / beards.
As for my youtube channel, I don't like to communicate with the people in my country. Many of them suck, they like to bash Shia but their own sect is worse in some aspects. Salafism is rising in my country.I study international politics, even just only one semester.I know how salafist risen and extreme salafist mostly risen in a place with lack of internet freedom.So impossible if you're been there.
By looking your attitude and speak pattern, I believe you're a native english speaker.I know US educational system not from the internet, but a dvd video talking about it.
Thus I already been in youtube since 2007-8, so I know correctly if youtubers mostly use their native languages rather than english.Btw I ever seen how a criminal court works.Mostly defendants who answer something not to the straight point and make refutation are lying and you're like them, someone ask from where you're came from then your answer is puzzling.
Why you afraid show your real country?? As long as you not show ur identity and face you're safe.I need someone who came from another countries, so we can share experiences each other.
NOTESalafist+Sunni majority+English speaking=This country doen't exist.
Peace
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Okay so I can conclude that your interpretation of the verse is as follow.
665 It may be that he would divorce you, then his Lord will substitute other wives in your place who are better than you; submitting their husbands, believing, obedient to their husbands repentant to God, worshipping God , devout towards God, mature and youthful.
You didn't answer my question. Why must wives be obedient to husbands but not the husbands? This is male-dominated culture that 'Saint' Paul preached.
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You didn't answer my question. Why must wives be obedient to husbands but not the husbands? This is male-dominated culture that 'Saint' Paul preached.
RED rotfl
I told you to read my post correctly.Wife must have "postive" obedient with the husband and the exchange the husband must fill the wife's need, like give them money, pay their mahr, protecting her.
There is no so called gender-dominance.I just try give better postion for what is position of wife and husband in the correct ways.You use circular reasoning against me.I already said if my arguments has nothing to do with Paul's letter and I don't believe on all Paul's contradicted letters.
Ok my post will not connect to you if you still influenced by that so called "Salafist stereotype".
665 It may be that he would divorce you, then his Lord will substitute other wives in your place who are better than you; submitting their husbands, believing, obedient to their husbands repentant to God, worshipping God , devout towards God, mature and youthful.
You must understand Quran terminology first.
-Female submitte=muslimat.Most of muslim knows if muslim means submitted to God not husband.
-Repentant in Arabic called taubat or nadam, and indeed if you read all verses in the Koran, then you will know what means repentant is repentant to God.
Repentant to husband?? it's strange to me, because a husband cannot give a salvation.What I mean of pleonasm is the term "obedient to God" already used by four words in verse 665, and why God used another word again (qaanit) for same cause??
And what is the difference of muslim (submitt) and obedient (qaanit), so the God written that two terms with separate words??
CHeers
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The term nisaa is more used for wives, ex nisaa' al-nabiyi (appeared in many verses).Please read this verse completly.
Btw the word muslimat, mu'minat and taubat is enough for the "obedient to God" in 665.If we tafseer qanit in 665 as obedient to God also, then it will be a pleonasm.
You made generalization to hasty.Who cares to St Paul anyways? D
Carefree wive indeed is not Abrahamic culture and this post already answered by your last post which have similiar point with mine.
Why someone like yu and Yuliana didn't read my post properly, this because both of you pursue your own emotional subjective, so both of u accuse me for nothing.
Indeed I never hate woman at all and look down woman, but I try to give proper position for what is the meaning of wife??
In my culture, there is a motto "Wanita harus dihargai" (Woman must be valued).We have a heroine named Raden Ajeng Kartini, a symbol of woman emancipation.Peace
So earthdom, according to you, God cannot ever speak about men and women in the Qur'an aithout it meaning husbands and weives. You are forbidding God to say anything about women or men. Rijaal is nto husband never, so why the opposite of rijaal in that aya would be wives. Whom are playing with.
It is shocking when men start to feel good about themselves and to have found a trick to circumvent clear words of God they get bold and try to push down other people's throats their won arrangments of what God MUST say. -rijaal continue to be rijaal but women become unfailingly wives. Please, please, please and they you top it call saying that we pursue our own emotional value. What yous ay is insulting and besides, what do you pursue when you trick with the Qur'ans words, your own hormonal value? could be?
And that "your own emotional value" betrays you very much. So women must not be listened to because when they say something we do not like to hear they pursue their own emotional value. Good. They do that, and on top of that, "their own emotional value" to those loving husbands (I suppose since women are always wives that men are always husbands) is absolutely undeserving of any consideration at all. Talking about being n ice to the wives (wives the only thing women can be, earthdom's word).
Don't you realise how out of reality you can get when you superimpose fairytales to the Qur'an and to real life? Your wives in those worlds you deppict where everybody is so fantastically happy must be laughinh out loud at their men on their backs, my God. They must be so easily manipulated with thos efantastic ideas about their place and merits in the world...
Salaam
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Earthdom, I am worried about you. What have you smoked? Are you a prophet of the same category as Muhammad? What have you blabbered in that post about 66.5? Are you out of your mind? Can you imagine khatam annabiyin writing what to me is absolute nonsense that you have poured in your lasts posts? Wake up man, all men are not prophets just as all men are not firw3awn. If you start that we all will be authorized to treat to like criminals should be treated, bcause in the Qur'an there are also criminal men being addressed.
Really worried about you.
Salaam