Gay and Muslim?
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For the sake of faithfulness and truth, it is not God who says anything about the males approaching the males, but His prophet Lut in the circumstance in which his people attempted to rape his male guests. This is what the Qur'an narrates. They attempted to rape Lut's guests and Lut defended his guests with that speech and pointed to his daughters instead, and apparently for the moment he succeeded, since the guests were not raped and his daughters did not interest the rapers. Lut spoke and Lut was in his circumstance.
Salaam
Rape? So according to you, Lot said "You raped men instead of women".
2754 And Lot, when he said to his people "Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see?"
2755 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people." -
The problem of difference in tafseer within Quranist is lack of study and lack of wisdom and clear thinking.
That's why I stopped to further discussion in Yuliana's feminist thread.I'm not hate everyone, but it seems some fallacious mindset still roaming in our brain.Like accuse me and @learning_truth81 as anti-feminist, but actually we try to get the proper definition of wife and husband properly.
(personal) I have mother and older sister and even I will not allowed them to became like a salafist slave.Now lets see this homosexual case.
First if we study religion only based on it's actor not it's teaching is kinda a fallacy.
If we see homosexual only based on it's actors, example if we see man to man kiss then we hastily use that reason for hate homosexual act is kinda a fallacy and raise hatred appoarch.Study is not just see, but observation.
The example if we see a punk community, then it's a wisdom if we see or punish the punkers as bad, just by looking their dress n hair??
No, we must learn first for What made they became a punk?? Why?? etc.Back to homosexual.For judge homosexual actors is haram or ot, the let's see what cause they became a homosexual?? a deliberate act like Sodom's or they born like that, I mean their shape of hormons is same as their opposite gender??
I try to use wisdomly conclusion for this cause, read http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605584.msg332714#msg332714
Peace.
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Rape? So according to you, Lot said "You raped men instead of women".
2754 And Lot, when he said to his people "Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see?"
2755 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people."No Lut said what he said, but what he said was to a number of his people who came to him asking him to hand his guests for what? for taking a stroll? The willingness of the guest for them was zilch, so what was their intent as depicted by the Qur'an? As far as I can see it was indeed to rape the guests and they were angry because Lut opposed them. And they were so intent on it as for Lut to be really worried that he had warded off then but that they would come back.
Or could it be said that the guests were going to fall in love with them at first sight and therefore have willingly sex with them?
They were also going to expel Lut and his followers out of the city because of his opposition to their conduct. And their conduct was ganglike and violent.
Salaam
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Yes Earthdom,
You are right, wise.
Whereas everyone on here is stupid. -
I am afraid that the whole affair of Lut is being looked at with only one aim to get condemnation of homosexuality or to deny not such condemnation is warranted by it. Like in 4.3 the intent is always to get a sanction for poligamy or not, whereas the ayas do not revolve around that.
When rid of the spiderwebs of preconception, when I look at the Lut ayas, what I see is a prophet and a set of followers encircled by a people gone out of bounds in vice, bestiality, violence and lawlessness, and Luts valiant opposition to that wild and ruthless might which had been attained by his people which made them feel they could do anything they wanted with anybody they wanted. It was not a discussion or a debate as to what is right or wrong or be good boys or think of God, and so on and so forth. The terms were not those. The situation was an explosive one, and when Lut's guests arrived si situation was to explode. Lut's people wanted to throw them out and Lut know not how to ward it off. Then is when the guests told him and his followers that the thing would be over that very night and they left secretly. Lut when facing those who wanted to have his guests handed over to them chose his words very carefully, he was trying to save his guests and his following, he was not screaming like a mad preacher at some corner, he was facing a ruthless gang who stopped at nothing and he would not overpower them with strength but with ability. So he spoke accordingly and spoke well wsince he gained a respite for the night. So if nobody wants to say that what the people of Lut was to rape the male guests, then what? Have them handed over so that they could politely aske them to please have sex with them?
So what is Lut's account about?
Salaam
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Salaam,
I think Earthdom had a reasonable argument.
God bless you
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but there is no verse in the Quran which prohibit same sex marriage, if that verse is exist, just bring it to me.
So we pro-homoseks, contra-homoseks, it's not important cause we have no autharity to judge them. If you disagree with this, then bring me one verse in the Quran which told us to judging or punish gays and lesbian.If you capable, I will hail to you.
So judge between them by what Allah has revealed
and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truthSalam
Below is the authority... very clear and detailed from Allah.
INTRO METHODOLOGY
Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book
whose verses are made DECISIVE <- eg. La ilaha illa Allah
then are they made PLAIN <- explanation, refer here and (2.67-71)
from the Wise, All-aware
(111)Alif laam raa, (inilah) suatu kitab
yang ayat-ayatnya disusun dengan rapi
serta dijelaskan secara terperinci
yang diturunkan dari sisi (Allah) Yang Maha Bijaksana lagi Maha Tahu,
(111)Alif, Laam, Raa'. Al-Quran sebuah Kitab
yang tersusun ayat-ayatnya dengan tetap teguh
kemudian dijelaskan pula kandungannya satu persatu
(Susunan dan penjelasan itu) adalah dari sisi Allah Yang Maha Bijaksana, lagi Maha Mendalam pengetahuanNya
(111)RULE RELATING "PRIVATE PARTS"
And those who guard their private parts <- ALL human beings have private parts, including homosexual
Except from their wives <- referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)Therefore....
GENERAL RULE
The prohibition of homosexuality is very clear and detailed in the Qur'an
ALL human beings have private parts (including homosexual)
Therefore, Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else.
Therefore, "same-sex-marriage" is prohibited since marriage is between man/woman
and there is no such things as using "private parts" to anyone other than
"wives" or "spouses".notes on punishment for "unlawful sexual intercourse"
Punishment for homosexual committing the offence of sexual intercourse
It is clear that Allah is lenient with homosexual, PROVIDED, they reform and restrain themselves.
If they repent and amend, then leave them alone.
otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".
Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".
ie. guilty for "sexual intercourse", and refer to punishment for sexual intercourse in the Qur'an, (241-2), ie. the punishment section for the offence of "sexual intercourse".
Another example a gay (who or what he are) committing "rape" (what he did) will receive punishment for raping. A gay (who or what he are) committing "theft" (what he did) will receive punishment for theft. A gay (who or what he are) committing "murder" (what he did) will receive punishment for murdering a person. He is not punish because of being a gay (who or what he are), but for committing offences (what he did), and similarly, unlawful "sexual intercourse" is an offence punishable by whipping. There is no where in the Qur'an that Allah says one should be punished for "what or who they are". It is all about "what they did".
as you can see in (7029-31), they are not guilty because of being a man or woman, but because of committing "unlawful sexual intercourse" and which shall be punishable by whipping. Similarly, being a gay is not an offence, but committing "unlawful sexual intercourse" is an offence and punishable by whipping.
Guilty for "what you did", not for "who or what you are".
Accordingly and if they are committing the same offence of unlawful sexual intercourse, the "punishment shall also be the same!". They are committing the same unlawful sexual contact and penetration. It is the same offence of "unlawful sexual intercourse", regardless of whether they are straight or homosexual.
continue..
EXPLANATION
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
(7029-31)The prohibition of homosexuality
The word "wives" is an inference for the "institution of marriage", and the word "Except" is the "exclusion principle"; ie. which excludes all acts other than "marriages" or "those their right hands possess" as illegal; transgressions, an act that goes against the Qur'an and Islam.
Definition of "wives"
a man's partner in marriage
Definition of "spouse"
spouse (spous, spouz)
n.
A marriage partner; a husband or wife.
tr.v. (spouz, spous) spoused, spous?ing, spous?es Archaic
To marry; wed.Further, the "wives" can never be referred to "men".
"Man" cannot be "wife", but "husband".
Other Translations
Muhammad Asad
with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess - for then, behold, they are free of all blame,M. M. Pickthall
Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy;Shakir
Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,Yusuf Ali (Orig. 193
Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
but not from their spouses or what their right hands possessed. Truly, they are not ones who will be reproached.Wahiduddin Khan
except from their spouses and those whom they rightfully possess , for which they incur no blameT.B.Irving
except with their own spouses or those living under their control; with such they are blameless.Except with their wives and with those of the captives in their hands; an act being then holy and incurs no blame;
(2011 Edition)
Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame.Abdel Haleem
from all but their spouses or their slave-girls??there is no blame attached to these,Abdul Majid Daryabadi
Save in regard to their spouses or those whom their right hands own; so verily they are not blameworthy -Ahmed Ali
And those who guard their sex except from their wives and women slaves of old. Are free of blameAisha Bewley
except from their wives and any slaves they own, in which case they incur no blame,Ali ?nal
Save from their spouses or (as a permission for men) those (bondsmaids) whom their right hands possess, for with regard to them they are free from blame.Ali Quli Qara'i
(except from their spouses and their slave women, for then they are not blameworthy;Hamid S. Aziz
Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess - for on these surely is no blame,Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
Except with their spouses or what their right hands possess; then surely they are not blameworthy (Literally other than being blameworthy).Muhammad Sarwar
except from their wives and slave girls, in which case they are not to be blamed,Muhammad Taqi Usmani
except from their wives and those (slave-girls) owned by their hands,__ because they are not to be blamed,Shabbir Ahmed
They have intimate relations only with their spouses - that is, those who are rightfully theirs through wedlock. For such relationship they are free of blame. ('Aw' = Or = That is = And. (235-7)).Syed Vickar Ahamed
Except from their wives and the (captive) whom their right hand possess? For (them), they are not to be blameworthy,Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they are not to be blamed -Farook Malik
except from their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for in their case they are not blameworthy.Dr. Munir Munshey
Except with their spouses _ those whom their right hands possess; because then, they are not blameworthy.Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
Except from their wives or the female slaves they possess. So (in this) there is no blame on them.Dr. Kamal Omar
except unto their wives or ma-malakat-aimanuhum (the women who are given in guardianship of adult males as their wives under a document prepared by the Muslim state) ? then surely they are unblamed people.Talal A. Itani (new translation)
Except from their spouses or those living under their control, for then they are free of blame.Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
Except with their spouses and those who their right hands possess, for they are not to be blamed,Maududi
except in regard to their spouses and those whom their right hands possess, for in regard to them they are not reproachable,(2013 Edition)
Except around their spouses or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.Bijan Moeinian
with their wives and the ones that God has approved for them.Faridul Haque
Except with their wives and the bondwomen in their possession, for there is no reproach on them.Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
except from their wives and what their right hands own, for these they are not blameworthy.Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
Except on (for) their spouses and what their rights owned/possessed (i.e. care-givers of the sick, elderly and disabled under contract), so then they are not blameworthy/blamed.Sher Ali
Except from their wives and from those whom their right hands possess; such indeed, are not to blame;Rashad Khalifa
(They have relations) only with their spouses, or what is legally theirs -Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)
Except with their wives and the bondwomen in their possession, for there is no reproach on them.Amatul Rahman Omar
Except from their (free) wives or those (wives of theirs) whom their right hands own (- slave wives), for which they are not to blame.Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali
Except with their wives and the (women slaves and captives) whom their right hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed,Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry
save from their wives and what their right hands own, then not being blameworthyEdward Henry Palmer
except for their wives or the (slave girls) whom their right hands possess, for they are not to be blamed;George Sale
of women other than their wives, or the slaves which their right hands possess; -- for as to them they shall be blameless;John Medows Rodwell
(Save with their wives or the slaves whom their right hands have won, for there they shall be blameless;N J Dawood (draft)
save with their wives and slave?girls, for these are lawful for themFACTS - "PRIVATE PARTS"
It is "natural" for homosexuals to have "private parts".
(cf. natural human organs vs. human/animal behaviours (issue of just or unjust) -> is natural?)Therefore, they are also affected by the above rules relating to "private parts" (7029-31), UNLESS they have none.
MAJOR QUESTION/ISSUE
Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
Answer, choose one
Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)
Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)
- Please, no rambling about Lut etc. I'm not discussing about "Lut's nation", but I'm discussing about the rules relating to "private parts". Therefore, please give your authority and clear verses that homosexual can use their "private parts" to anyone, other than "wives" or "spouses".
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@muslims You stated that when I place words for comparison that they "ignores its context" , then apply 548-49 out of context? What is the word that best describes a person that accuses others...and undertakes the same action that they accuse others of?
"Except from their wives" is literal and applies to men only, hmm? This is excellent news (if true) to all women, including lesbians! <sarcasm>
Is it not clear that the verses refer to pairs/mates/groups (which includes spouses)? It was clear enough to many of the translators!
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/6/
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/70/30/default.htmRather than depend on the translations of others, translate the verse with the Qur'an. Cross reference the words and find what the true meaning is.
2240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do with themselves of goodness; and GOD is Noble, Wise.
6143 Eight in from the lambs two, and from the goats two. Say "Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the wombs of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!"
1588 So do not linger with your eyes on what We have bestowed upon some from them, and do not grieve for them, and lower your wing for the believers.
20131 And do not linger with your eyes on what We have bestowed upon some from them; the flower of the worldly life; so as to test them in it; and the provision of your Lord is better and more lasting.
235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their , or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.567 And you will be in three .
7029 And those who keep covered their private parts.
7030 Except around their or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
7031 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.788 And We created you in ?
What are the words for wife and wives in AQ? hmm
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=wife
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=wivesWe are enjoined in AQ to honor our obligations and contracts. It just so happens that homosexuals form obligations and even contracts (such as marriages and civil unions) between each other.
"I have never made but one prayer to GOD, a very short one 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And GOD granted it." - Voltaire
3348 And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in GOD; for GOD suffices as an advocate.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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3348 And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in GOD; for GOD suffices as an advocate.
Salam
Why are you using general verses of the Qur'an to make me look like a disbeliever when I'm referring you the exact words from the Qur'an and giving full reasons? Since when a "transgressor" are better than those who follow the "STRAIGHT" path in the Qur'an? (al-fatihah; Guide us to the STRAIGHT path.... and vs. homosexual path) ;D
I in fact have hundreds of verses in my head and can do the same, which I choose not to do so against you. It is irrelevant!
and you are still rambling with your "straw argument" and did not answer my question, while arrogantly rejecting all translators as being wrong! and without any reasons! (refer here, other translations section, relating to "wives" or "spouses". Stop being a "straw person" and answer the question.
Why Allah used different words, while you are interpreting these words should mean the same as (6143) ?
Is is exactly the same with ?
Context?
Peace.
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They said, "We are being dispatched to guilty people.
"As for Lot's family, we will save them all.
"But not his wife; she is destined to be with the doomed."Why was Lot's wife destined to be with the doomed? Was she also homosexual?
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Salam
Why homosexual should be exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
They have none?
- Please, no rambling about Lut etc. I'm not discussing about "Lut's nation", but I'm discussing about the rules relating to "private parts". Therefore, please give your authority and clear verses that homosexual can use their "private parts" to anyone, other than "wives" or "spouses".
Peace
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Salaam,
Like I said before, some people are frequent throwers of stones in glass houses.
God bless you
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Salaam,
Such good behavior, muslims. Are you making God happy?
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Such good behavior, muslims. Are you making God happy?
Understood! So I have no right to reply or defence when someone makes a blank accusation or use sarcastic language against me. laugh
Salam
I believe so .. I'm following the Qur'an
You called me a rebel for "no reason", I called you a bigot for "justified reasons". Fair? ;D
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction
and argue with them in a way that is best
Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way
and He is most knowing of who is guided
And if you punish
punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed
But if you are patient
it is better for those who are patient
(16125-126)Peace.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
Why are you using general verses of the Qur'an to make me look like a disbeliever when I'm referring you the exact words from the Qur'an and giving full reasons? Since when a "transgressor" are better than those who follow the "STRAIGHT" path in the Qur'an? (al-fatihah; Guide us to the straight path.... and vs. homosexual path) ;D
What do you mean by "general" verses? Do you discount any verses and if so, which and why?
Further, I didn't call anyone a disbeliever. If you feel that the label applies to you--it is solely on you.
If the verses make you look (or feel like you look) like a disbeliever, there may be a reason for that (walk like a duck, quack like a duck)...but I won't call you one because I don't know if you are or are not. If it makes you feel better, I don't think you are a disbeliever. Two sentences in my last post were directed at you...the part that said "@muslims" which was separated from the rest of the post with ***.
You are using translations (such as "wives" instead of exact words (such as "azwjihim", and have said that when I use exact words that the exact words are out of context--and then have the gall to state that you use exact words. What do you call a person who engages in hypocrisy? > Apply that label to yourself then, deservedly!
Were you attempting a pun (straight path) in a serious conversation? <groan>
I in fact have hundreds of verses in my head and can do the same, which I choose not to do it against you.
Thank you for not doing so--it means a lot to me! I really mean that!
and you are still rambling with your "straw argument" and did not answer my question, while arrogantly rejecting all translators as being wrong! and without any reasons! (refer here, other translations section, relating to "wives" or "spouses". Stop being a "straw person" and answer the question.
I don't ramble. I place informative statements backed by AQ and verifiable information. The arguments I have put forward are not straw men (although it seems that you'd like to present them as such in order to ignore them). It seems that 'tis you that is grasping for straws instead of grasping for genuine meaning. Pity. The single question asked in the post before has been addressed. It was addressed by pointing out that the question was invalid.
It is invalid in the same sense that the two following questions are invalid
Have you stopped beating your wife lately?
or
What is one plus one?
Choose one answer only!
A 19
B 11,000,000,000It is apparent that the words are different...look at the roots though. Also, consider the other evidences, such as different words used for wife and wives.
I haven't arrogantly rejected translators, but I DO trust the Qur'an more than any translator. Who is a translator that I should trust them without verification? The translators can't even agree among themselves! I actually posted links to translations...and then posted a better source--verses from the Qur'an. Also, in posting how you perceived my actions as arrogant, you have once again resorted to the ever-so-intellectual ad-hominem attack.
Peace.
Since you haven't addressed any of the actual questions in my previous post, should I believe that you have no answer for them? Is pretending insult when you weren't even singled out just a way of muddying the water?
You are a legend in your own mind--a true shining wit; try reading the Qur'an instead of quoting yourself--you may actually learn something of value!
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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But if you are patient it is better for those who are patient
Where is your patience? You have tenfold tried to break me down and you call it justified? Are you going to be that literal about the interpretation you risk missing the point.
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My comments are in red.
Salam
How is that could be considered as answering the following question? confused
Why Allah used different words, while you are interpreting these words should mean the same as (6143) ?
Is is exactly the same with ?
Context?
and you are still rambling with your "straw argument" and did not answer my question, while arrogantly rejecting all translators as being wrong! and without any reasons! (refer here, other translations section, relating to "wives" or "spouses". Stop being a "straw person" and answer the question.
Peace
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Salaam,
Unfortunately I do not refer anywhere I am fine where I am, sorry! You interpret the Qur'an too literally without taking the whole Book/Message into consideration. Where is the wishful thinking? I pasted a section of the verse which you had not highlighted but was part of it and pretty important too as it included behavioral hints.
Read the following remaining verses in that chapter to get a better view of the context as they are related. Being good is in the last verse.
Anyway I am not sure what we are trying to prove really and it is bad behavior from all of us and we should move it out of the thread. We are not on topic but just flaming each other.
"If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also". Best solution.
Peace