Gay and Muslim?
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Such good behavior, muslims. Are you making God happy?
Understood! So I have no right to reply or defence when someone makes a blank accusation or use sarcastic language against me. laugh
Salam
I believe so .. I'm following the Qur'an
You called me a rebel for "no reason", I called you a bigot for "justified reasons". Fair? ;D
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction
and argue with them in a way that is best
Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way
and He is most knowing of who is guided
And if you punish
punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed
But if you are patient
it is better for those who are patient
(16125-126)Peace.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
Why are you using general verses of the Qur'an to make me look like a disbeliever when I'm referring you the exact words from the Qur'an and giving full reasons? Since when a "transgressor" are better than those who follow the "STRAIGHT" path in the Qur'an? (al-fatihah; Guide us to the straight path.... and vs. homosexual path) ;D
What do you mean by "general" verses? Do you discount any verses and if so, which and why?
Further, I didn't call anyone a disbeliever. If you feel that the label applies to you--it is solely on you.
If the verses make you look (or feel like you look) like a disbeliever, there may be a reason for that (walk like a duck, quack like a duck)...but I won't call you one because I don't know if you are or are not. If it makes you feel better, I don't think you are a disbeliever. Two sentences in my last post were directed at you...the part that said "@muslims" which was separated from the rest of the post with ***.
You are using translations (such as "wives" instead of exact words (such as "azwjihim", and have said that when I use exact words that the exact words are out of context--and then have the gall to state that you use exact words. What do you call a person who engages in hypocrisy? > Apply that label to yourself then, deservedly!
Were you attempting a pun (straight path) in a serious conversation? <groan>
I in fact have hundreds of verses in my head and can do the same, which I choose not to do it against you.
Thank you for not doing so--it means a lot to me! I really mean that!
and you are still rambling with your "straw argument" and did not answer my question, while arrogantly rejecting all translators as being wrong! and without any reasons! (refer here, other translations section, relating to "wives" or "spouses". Stop being a "straw person" and answer the question.
I don't ramble. I place informative statements backed by AQ and verifiable information. The arguments I have put forward are not straw men (although it seems that you'd like to present them as such in order to ignore them). It seems that 'tis you that is grasping for straws instead of grasping for genuine meaning. Pity. The single question asked in the post before has been addressed. It was addressed by pointing out that the question was invalid.
It is invalid in the same sense that the two following questions are invalid
Have you stopped beating your wife lately?
or
What is one plus one?
Choose one answer only!
A 19
B 11,000,000,000It is apparent that the words are different...look at the roots though. Also, consider the other evidences, such as different words used for wife and wives.
I haven't arrogantly rejected translators, but I DO trust the Qur'an more than any translator. Who is a translator that I should trust them without verification? The translators can't even agree among themselves! I actually posted links to translations...and then posted a better source--verses from the Qur'an. Also, in posting how you perceived my actions as arrogant, you have once again resorted to the ever-so-intellectual ad-hominem attack.
Peace.
Since you haven't addressed any of the actual questions in my previous post, should I believe that you have no answer for them? Is pretending insult when you weren't even singled out just a way of muddying the water?
You are a legend in your own mind--a true shining wit; try reading the Qur'an instead of quoting yourself--you may actually learn something of value!
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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But if you are patient it is better for those who are patient
Where is your patience? You have tenfold tried to break me down and you call it justified? Are you going to be that literal about the interpretation you risk missing the point.
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My comments are in red.
Salam
How is that could be considered as answering the following question? confused
Why Allah used different words, while you are interpreting these words should mean the same as (6143) ?
Is is exactly the same with ?
Context?
and you are still rambling with your "straw argument" and did not answer my question, while arrogantly rejecting all translators as being wrong! and without any reasons! (refer here, other translations section, relating to "wives" or "spouses". Stop being a "straw person" and answer the question.
Peace
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Salaam,
Unfortunately I do not refer anywhere I am fine where I am, sorry! You interpret the Qur'an too literally without taking the whole Book/Message into consideration. Where is the wishful thinking? I pasted a section of the verse which you had not highlighted but was part of it and pretty important too as it included behavioral hints.
Read the following remaining verses in that chapter to get a better view of the context as they are related. Being good is in the last verse.
Anyway I am not sure what we are trying to prove really and it is bad behavior from all of us and we should move it out of the thread. We are not on topic but just flaming each other.
"If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also". Best solution.
Peace
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Salam
Too much wishful thinking, and I don't how your post is contributing or answering the issue of this thread (refer here and here). You are not referring to the Qur'an and make your personal opinions and wishful thinking from the start. Now, you are calling people "rebel" (refer here), "curse them to hell" (refer here and here), make hate comments (sectarian), and make so many "blank accusations" (refer here) which I don't bother to reply, and simply because they are referring to the Qur'an and have different perspectives. In conclusion, you are the best of all and will be entered into Paradise, and without any needs to refer the Qur'an. It is always other peoples' problems and be in hell (refer here). Please send my regard to Allah, I'll be waiting in the Hell Fire. In fact, I'm not afraid of the Hell Fire!! ;D
Peace
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Salaam brother,
Why are you not afraid of the Hellfire with your behavior? Lies about me over and over again.
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Why are you not afraid of the Hellfire with your behavior? Lies about me over and over again.
Salam
So you edit your comments, and it is not lying. I quote every words I said. Proven!
Why should those who believe in the Qur'an afraid of the Hell Fire?
Are you a disbeliever?
Peace.
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Because it does not matter what you believe if you are not a decent person which you have entirely missed from Qur'an.
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Salam
Indeed, those who have said, "Our Lord is Allah ,"
and then remained on a right course
there will be no fear concerning them
nor will they grieve
(4613), refer also to (7213)and as I said, you are arguing from a Christian point of views .. adopting Christian views as Islamic views.
A religion, sectarianism and a bigot.
So do you think Khidr will be in the Hell Fire?
Okay if I make it simple and break it into four rules, Islam for you is only the "Afaalullah".. and you set aside the "Asmaulllah", "Sifatullah" and "Dzatullah". Just like what the Christians are doing, Jesus is Love and nothing else matter. So as Buddhism, life is peace and harmony, nothing else matter ... or the Hinduism, life is sacrifice, nothing else matter. That's pretty simple, and there is nothing to reason, weight and balance for a deen, or dealings with various behaviours of human beings and other living creatures (cf. Khalifah). In fact, Allah could just tell us on a single piece of paper, do good! Done! Good Job!
However, does both Mr. Perfect and Mr. Good Heart, or loves have negative side effects?
Does perfection or love "invites fear"?
Insecure?
Depression?
Frustration, abuse, alcoholic or suicide, maybe? !
You are Mr. Good Heart and divorcing, your wife left you... right?
What do you feel now, after being Mr. Good Heart?
Do you able to "READ" (understand) her as Mr. Good Heart?
How many people in this world with good heart and full of love but live miserably?
Being oppressed by the those in power?
Now, how does all that relates with the following ayat?
Unquestionably, the allies of Allah
there will be no fear concerning them
nor will they grieve
(1062)How could it be possible for any human beings to be fear of imperfection or being unloved, and at the same time have no "fear" or "grievance"?
How does all that is the solution by the One True Creator?
You must be kidding.
The Qur'an is not that that simple or like what you think, right?
In fact, I believe you don't understand (read) what you are talking.
You are just rambling, and without facts from the Qur'an (no purpose). )
Right, you don't read and only argues.
Peace.
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Rather a Christian than an asshole.
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Rather a Christian than an asshole.
Salam
Thanks for your praise. laugh
Proven! Revealing you're true self, just like any sectarian Sunni or Shia.
You must be the lowliest of beings. Hitting really low and behavior like a true sucker and saying you believe in God. And saying behavior will not count while it is one of the main criteria according to Qur'an. Christian point of view?? It is one of the most important perspectives of Islam.
Now I know I said asshole to you but foul language is allowed when you are subject to gross injustice, should you know who interprets the book so literally.
Where is your patience?
You know well what you really are.
Always knew it , right from the start.
I've said it.
Peace
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Ok I must stop. U made me lose my temper for sure... I am terribly sorry. .. moderators... my biggest mistake here so far..
Good night
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Rather a Christian than an asshole.
Salam
Proven! again... laugh
Too much wishful thinking, and I don't how your post is contributing or answering the issue of this thread (refer here and here). You are not referring to the Qur'an and make your personal opinions and wishful thinking from the start. Now, you are calling people "rebel" (refer here), "curse them to hell" (refer here and here), make hate comments (sectarian), and make so many "blank accusations" (refer here) which I don't bother to reply, and simply because they are referring to the Qur'an and have different perspectives. In conclusion, you are the best of all and will be entered into Paradise, and without any needs to refer the Qur'an. It is always other peoples' problems and be in hell (refer here). Please send my regard to Allah, I'll be waiting in the Hell Fire. In fact, I'm not afraid of the Hell Fire!! ;D
Peace
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ALL human beings have private parts (including homosexual)
Therefore, Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else.
Therefore, "same-sex-marriage" is prohibited since marriage is between man/woman
and there is no such things as using "private parts" to anyone other than
"wives" or "spouses".Unfortunately your reds words didn't backed by any ayats in the Quran, even there is one, this just your misintepretation.
Verses about "guard private part" is 235-6
23.5 And who (ن keep covered their private parts.
23.6 Except around their mates (م, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.
The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!This means this verse is neutral in gender and translation you used is a distortion one.
And verse 7029-31 is a repetation of 235-6.Punishment for homosexual committing the offence of sexual intercourse
otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".
Hence to judge if homosexual is an adultery or not, we must take proper investigation first.
Peace
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Unfortunately your reds words didn't backed by any ayats in the Quran, even there is one, this just your misintepretation.
Salam
The question is simple... (from here)
MAJOR QUESTION/ISSUE
Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
Answer, choose one
Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)
Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)
- Please, no rambling about Lut etc. I'm not discussing about "Lut's nation", but I'm discussing about the rules relating to "private parts". Therefore, please give your authority and clear verses that homosexual can use their "private parts" to anyone, other than "wives" or "spouses".
and I believe, you also ignored all the translation in that post, including the Indonesian translation, despite both of us are just "forumers". State your translation, and we can also start from there logically.
Peace
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Hence to judge if homosexual is an adultery or not, we must take proper investigation first.
Salam
That is not the issue..
Interesting, you don't know the difference between the "Procedural Law" and "Substantive Law", and treat the "Procedural Law" as if it is the "Substantive Law" relating to the offence itself, and yet, still be able to say...
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Salam
How is that could be considered as answering the following question? confused
Peace
There are multiple questions in that link...and only one question in the previous post. You'll have to be clearer if you want questions reanswered...reasking the question so that it can be reanswered would be better than posting a link.
As for the question in the previous post, I didn't make the claim that the two words are the same. The words are not the same. I even stated this in the previous post when I stated
"It is apparent that the words are different...look at the roots though. Also, consider the other evidences, such as different words used for wife and wives."
However, rather than get bogged down in such minutiae...there are some long outstanding questions that you haven't answered. How terrible it must be to accuse others of not answering questions when they haven't answered dozens of questions themselves. Why, doing such could openly expose a person as being a hypocrite!
I'll repost the questions here for your convenience! I'll even post my own understanding for comparison. Btw, ack is shorthand for acknowledged.
Acknowledge that AQ is not ridiculous.
ack
Acknowledge that physical evidence is not ridiculous.
ack
Refute that ALLAH created people differently, as is stated in AQ 3022.
can't refute it
Refute that ALLAH gave us signs in nature, as is stated in AQ 226 and 2164.
can't refute it
Refute that ALLAH created homosexual animals, as are found in nature.
can't refute it, except for animals that don't reproduce sexually at all
Refute that AQ 2929 lists reasons aside from male homosexuality that the people of Lot might have been destroyed.
can't refute it
Refute that the women among the people of Lot were innocent of male-male sex.
can't refute it
Refute that women and children among the people of Lot were destroyed alongside the men among the people of Lot.
Maybe. I wasn't a witness. There is an argument that they were saved with the family of Lot (peace upon all Prophets).
Refute that there is no compulsion in the Deen, as is stated in AQ 2256.
can't refute
Refute that homosexuality is depicted in cave paintings that physically exist that have been dated to be around 12,000 years old.
can't refute
Refute that homosexuality existed at least 5,000 years ago among humans in Mesopotamia, as is found among physical existing evidence.
can't refute
Refute that the people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE.
can't refute
Refute that circa 3000 BCE is before 1953 BCE.
can't refute
Refute that over a thousand years span the time between the recorded homosexual acts in Mesopotamia and the time that the people of Lot were destroyed.
can't refute
Refute that AQ 780 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."
can't refute
Acknowledge that no person alive was present among the people of Lot.
ack
Refute that AQ 1736 states not to uphold what one has no knowledge of.
can't refute
Acknowledge that physical evidence can comprise knowledge.
ack
Acknowledge that knowledge is better than conjecture.
ack
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not? Yes or no, please.
Yes, a homosexual relationship is beyond this.
Homosexuality and homosexual actions long predate the people of Lot. Could it be, perhaps, that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression?
Yes, approaching people lustfully is a transgression.
In all seriousness, if the lewdness referred to in 415 is homosexuality or even homosexual acts, is this something that spreads?
No, homosexuality doesn't spread. You can't "catch the ghey".
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness , you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.
Even if the words did mean what you think (try substituting your definition in all places where the word occurs, lol), no punishment is applied without four witnesses! Do you dispute about the witnesses?
I can't
Homosexuality is not something that can spread--for that matter, neither is fornication. Do you dispute this?
Neither can spread; no dispute.
Homosexuality is not something that can be improved/bettered/cured. Do you dispute this?
Not by any known method; no dispute.
So then...where is this "homosexuality" that you are referring to coming from--a preconceived notion?
Can't answer this question for you!
Start bringing in other scriptures to supplement/complement/supplant the Deen, and there are contradictions. Do you stone an adulterer or lash them? Is shellfish an abomination?
Lash them, per the Qur'an. Shellfish is not an abomination.
Is the Qur'an enough for a believer or is it not?
For the Deen, yes, it is enough.
(your question) Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
So then, does a woman have to guard her private parts except to her wife?
No! All people have to guard their private parts, except to their partner.
"Except from their wives" is literal and applies to men only, hmm?
No! It is a mistranslated verse that properly translated states that all people have to be chaste except to their partner.
Is it not clear that the verses refer to pairs/mates/groups (which includes spouses)?
It is clear to me!
@muslims You stated that when I place words for comparison that they "ignores its context" , then apply 548-49 out of context? What is the word that best describes a person that accuses others...and undertakes the same action that they accuse others of?
Yes, and the word is "hypocrite".
What are the words for wife and wives in AQ?
There are multiple words. It is puzzling why one would believe that "azwjihim" means wives and wives only when so many other words are used to describe wives.
What do you mean by "general" verses? Do you discount any verses and if so, which and why?
There are no such things as general verses, only verses. I discount none of them.
What do you call a person who engages in hypocrisy?
a hypocrite
Were you attempting a pun (straight path) in a serious conversation?
If so, it was not funny.
Is pretending insult when you weren't even singled out just a way of muddying the water?
This is an example of muddying the water, but whether it was done deliberately or not is unclear (no pun intended).
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi