New Article: what is 'al HaJJ' according to The Quran?

noshirk

salaam
i agree on most points.
i disagree on these points
marwa can point to any drinking (and not to stone).
Hajj points clearly to argument. So it is a feats whits some debators. Kaaba/maqaam Ibrahim is the tribune like the one on which Abraham has leaded debates.

Hajj is made to spread words of God and to debate with who has "hojjaton" in his heart against word of god.
Making Omra is the simple act of assisting "as visitor".

i would like to give a trial on what i consider the more complex verse verse in Quran

Monotheist Version
2196 And conclude the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are secure, then whoever makes the visit, but decides to continue until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten - this is for those whose family is not resident at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

This is my traduction
2-196 And conclude the Hajj and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then get what is possible

Had'y here would be the words of God and not any kind of food
and do not raise your heads until the quranic lessons/arguments reaches your minds

No shaving anywhere. We have to be concentrated on the the debates and don't do anything else until it finishes
the destination is the minds.
Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head,

that is can't concentrate
then he may redeem by saoum or sadaqa or anyway to approch to God.

that is, he can delay his days dedicated to god.
please note that sadaqa can both mean charity or sincere words (so teachnings to someone)
When you get the had'y

no security considerations here. Amintom is like imen and means to be entrusted in something. Here words of God and Hajj arguments
then whoever is in Hajj as visitor

then he can continue obtaining informations and quranic teachnings;

during the 7 days lasted
but for he who cannot participate in the additionnal discussions,

then he must make saoum for three days during the Pilgrimage

remember that we have not to raise our heads if we are visitor and that Hajj and saoum coincides on three days.
so visitors are making already making Saoum during the first three days
Remember that saoum, according to 19-26, is not speaking with humans end entering in spiritual meditation.
comparison between 3-41 and 19-10 shows that period of saoum is three days. Read them carefully to see that Zachariah was already fasting from speaking to humans during the day before Allah completed to him the saoum also during the night
and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten

for whose who particpated in Hajj, they have to add seven days to think more about what they heard
this is for those whose family is not resident at the Masjid Haram

it is the people who resides far from the Masjid (place where we listen) Haram (law of God), who can quit the place of Hajj after only three days.
. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution

Peace

GODsubmitter

I am becoming somewhat frustrated with all this hajj thing...

I just cannot imagine that God it intended this
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2FcZuY-iV8

Wakas

peace,

i disagree on these points
marwa can point to any drinking (and not to stone).

Evidence?

Hajj points clearly to argument.

The 1st verb form "hajj" does not point clearly to "argument".

So it is a feats whits some debators.

I see little evidence of debate at hajj in Quran.

Kaaba/maqaam Ibrahim is the tribune like the one on which Abraham has leaded debates.

I do not see how "kaabah" could be a tribune.

Re your rendition of 2196
I recommend http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html

Remember that saoum, according to 19-26, is not speaking with humans end entering in spiritual meditation.

Another possible, and perhaps probable, understanding of that verse is that sawm simply means abstinence, and that the context will let us know what kind of sawm is being referred to.

noshirk

salaam wakas

Kaaba

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. .

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However, i admit that kaaba=tribune is an interpretation.
i think that Kaaba=maqaam Ibrahim. It is from that that i deduced that kaaba is the tribune where Ibrahim stood up (for debating).

Hajj
please read these verses 42-16
45-25;3-66;6-80;9-19;12-68;40-47;40-80;42-16;59-9
where word hajj is used in meaning of argument

evidence of debating is obvious. All prophets debated with unbelievers and moshrikouns with arguments. They never asked to believe dumbly. Quite All quran speaks about thou el albab and thinking and arguments.

Marwa

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. . .

of course safa can be these

.
.
.

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it is incredible that safa and marwa became sacred mountains.

Saoum
abstinence ok but abstince from what ?

1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed an abstinence (saum) for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

and compare these
341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

there is absolutely no other way that the sign to zachariah is the same sign in the two verses. Zachariah was already making saoum from speaking to human during the daytime.

i have two quranic proofs for absitinence from speaking. All other understandings rely on others words than words of Allah.

thank you for the link

Peace

Wakas

peace,

When I look up "tribune" in a dictionary it does not mean what you seem to be taking it to mean, e.g.

tribune
noun
1.
an official in ancient Rome chosen by the plebeians to protect their interests.
a Roman legionary officer.
noun military tribune;plural noun military tribunes
a popular leader; a champion of people's rights.

Thus, as it stands, your interpretation makes no sense. Perhaps you meant something else.

Hajj
please read these verses 42-16
45-25;3-66;6-80;9-19;12-68;40-47;40-80;42-16;59-9
where word hajj is used in meaning of argument

Do you even realise you are NOT referring to "hajj" but another word form? Perhaps this will help you

hajja vb. (1)
perf. act. 2158
n.vb. 2189, 2196, 2196, 2196, 2197, 2197, 2197, 397, 93, 2227
pcple. act. 919

hijaj n.f. (pl. of hijjah) 2827

hujjah n.f. 2150, 4165, 683, 6149, 4215, 4216, 4525

hajja vb. (3)
perf. act. 2258, 320, 361, 366, 680
impf. act. 276, 2139, 365, 366, 373, 680, 4216

tahajja vb. (6) impf. act. 4047

evidence of debating is obvious. All prophets debated with unbelievers and moshrikouns with arguments. They never asked to believe dumbly. Quite All quran speaks about thou el albab and thinking and arguments.

No evidence of debating in/at hajj or some feast or event - that is what I asked for.

You referenced some Arabic for marwah but do you know what the root of marwah is? You seem to have cited another root.

i have two quranic proofs for absitinence from speaking. All other understandings rely on others words than words of Allah.

On the one hand, you admit "Saoum - abstinence ok but abstince from what ?" then on the other say it can only be abstinence from speaking, then claim anything other relies on words other than words of Allah. Quite a bold claim, however, this suggests to me you are unaware of verses such as 2184-187 which clearly discuss what such sawm entail - nothing about not speaking there.

In any case, thank you for sharing your view, however this thread is primarily for feedback, and especially corrections in the article discussed.

noshirk

salaam wakas

about kaaba
http//www.plastivert.com/client/cache/produit/342_____photo01_508.jpg
these women are standing on what i can call a kaaba. Something elevated.
Abraham stood up on something like that to speak to people.
it is to something like this that people in Hajj and Omra have to go in order to receive had'y (that in hikma and teachings based on words of God). They have to listen in order to the gift to reach their mind destination. HALAKA heads is not shaving Heads. Halaka is used for birds when they fly in the sky.

about rawa
rawa is to oppose to thirst. Marwa can thus be everything who remove thirstiness
it is ma yarwi.

about saoum
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women . They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you.
1 - And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;
2- then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the Masajids.
These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

Before dawn, eat, drink and approach your wifes
after dawn, don't approcach wifes. No mention of no eat and no drink but a mention of isolating ourselves in Masajids.

I don't know by wich kind of psychological process, people read no eat no drink in place of devoting in masajids. ???
Saoum is no speaking to humans and dedicating time only to words of God. Eating and drinking is recommended for concentration and meditating about words of God and our life

about Hajj
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sorry wakas, i know very well the hojjas like "it means another thing", "it is another word", "it is another word form"...I am fed up with these kind of arguments/Hojajs.
it is wich such arguments that all words of quran were corrupted.

4525 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, their only "HOJJA" is to say ?Then bring back our forefathers, if you are truthful.?

The aim of Hajj is to debate and argue like all prophet did with who want to know more about islam.
there is no problem if there is a feast with Hajj. But feast is not the aim.
it is why Hajj is open to all Nass (people). All but not moshrikouns who brings with them other books and beliefs saying "these are also words of God".

Unfortunately, debates can have no end.
it why Allah said here
4216 And those who YOUHAJJOUN about God, after they had been answered, their HOJJA is nullified at their Lord. They have incurred a wrath, and will have a severe retribution.

There is a time where each one of us, after hearing all hojjajs, have to make a saoum, isolated, to make is own conclusions. I cannot do that for you and you cannot do that for me.

Peace

Ashraf

Peace,

AL-HADYA - (Guided/Tamed/Reared) is opposite to AL-SOYDA - (Wild/Untamed/unreared) animals.
AL-HAJJ (literally means "the overcoming" / "get around&quot is the way of getting around the hunting restriction period of SOYDU AL-BARR - (land based wildlife) by providing alternative food supply of AL-HADYA animals category.
AL-HADYA is brought to MAHILLAH (the redistribution centre) in the vicinity of kaabah al-bayt (a prominent residential highland valley) during AR-BA'ATA ASY-HUR
'UMRAH is preparation/administering works prior to HAJJ season arrival. Logically AL-HADYA shall be arranged to arrive to MAHILLAH prior to HAJJ season, so that people don't resort to hunt SOYDU AL-BARR from day 1 of HAJJ season/restriction period started.
For AT-TOIFEEN (Foreign Visitors) who participate in HAJJ they need to contribute AL-HADYA. The one who manage to contribute Al-HADYA can stay at least for 2 days at kaabah al-bayt if they are in rush.
For AT-TOIFEEN who have nothing to contribute from AL-HADYA, they need to fast minimum 3 days during their stay at kaabah al-bayt and 7 days when they return to their hometown (AYYAMAN MA'DUDAT from minimum 2 days to maximum of 10 days).
For AL-QOIMEEN (locals) who have nothing to contribute from AL-HADYA, they need to fast 10 days during the HAJJ season.

cleanfox5982

Saoum
abstinence ok but abstince from what ?

1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed an abstinence (saum) for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??

and compare these
341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?

there is absolutely no other way that the sign to zachariah is the same sign in the two verses. Zachariah was already making saoum from speaking to human during the daytime.

Salam Noshirk ,

Zacharyiaa wasn't making a volunteer Syiam ( fast ) , if it was volunteer there will be no sign in it for Zacharyiaa .

In the Three days mentioned in 341 & 1910 Zacharyiaa was not able to speak , he didn't speak to people because he couldn't , and that was the sign from Allaah that he is going to have a boy even if he is old and his wife is barren , he wanted a sign so to feel more confident about the fact .

19 - 8
19 - 9
19 - 10

198 (He said , "My Lord, how will I have a boy when my wife has been barren and I have reached extreme old age?&quot
199 ( Said, "Thus ; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, for I created you before, while you were nothing.' "
1910 ( He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, sound.&quot

So the sign was that he couldn't speak to people for three nights but only by gesture

341(He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He Said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three days except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and exalt in the evening and the morning.&quot

If it was a volunteer Syiaam ( fast) there will be no sign in it for

siwto

Salam,

I just discover a city "Hajjah" in the western Yemen. My question is could be that city place related to hajj rituals, both of the terms having the same root.
Should you please clue us thereon.

Salam

siwto

noshirk

Salam Noshirk ,
Zacharyiaa wasn't making a volunteer Syiam ( fast ) , if it was volunteer there will be no sign in it for Zacharyiaa .

Salaam Al Kitab
there is probably a misunderstanding of what i said.

the sign of allah (forced saoum) is from maghrib to machriq (19-10)
the volunter saoum is from machriq to maghrib.

adding the two, wa have three complete days as in 3-41

if you reject this understanding you will have probably to admit that Allah, in Quran, by comparing 19-10 and 3-41, don't know if he made a sign for three night or three days.

Peace

cleanfox5982

Salam member Noshirk ,

there is probably a misunderstanding of what i said.

Apologies but what was the misunderstanding ?

You said

there is absolutely no other way that the sign to zachariah is the same sign in the two verses. Zachariah was already making saoum from speaking to human during the daytime.

What was the misunderstanding according to what I said below in response to what you have said above

Salam Noshirk ,

Zacharyiaa wasn't making a volunteer Syiam ( fast ) , if it was volunteer there will be no sign in it for Zacharyiaa .

In the Three days mentioned in 341 & 1910 Zacharyiaa was not able to speak , he didn't speak to people because he couldn't , and that was the sign from Allaah that he is going to have a boy even if he is old and his wife is barren , he wanted a sign so to feel more confident about the fact .

19 - 8
19 - 9
19 - 10

198 (He said , "My Lord, how will I have a boy when my wife has been barren and I have reached extreme old age?&quot
199 ( Said, "Thus ; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, for I created you before, while you were nothing.' "
1910 ( He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, sound.&quot

So the sign was that he couldn't speak to people for three nights but only by gesture

341(He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He Said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three days except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and exalt in the evening and the morning.&quot

If it was a volunteer Syiaam ( fast) there will be no sign in it for

the sign of allah (forced saoum) is from maghrib to machriq (19-10)
the volunter saoum is from machriq to maghrib.
adding the two, wa have three complete days as in 3-41

if you reject this understanding you will have probably to admit that Allah, in Quran, by comparing 19-10 and 3-41, don't know if he made a sign for three night or three days.

Peace

Yes i reject this understanding and i do not admit what you linked throughly .

The sign from allah for Zakaryiaa is that he become speechless out of his control day and night during three days complete including the nights .

Timur

Peace Alkitab,

773 And to Thamud, We sent their brother Saleh, he said ?My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him; clarity has come to you from your Lord, this is the camel of God, in her you have a sign, so leave her to eat in God?s earth, and do not harm her, else the painful retribution will take you.?

Is this sign something forced or something to be obeyed by free will?

cleanfox5982

Peace Alkitab,

773 And to Thamud, We sent their brother Saleh, he said ?My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him; clarity has come to you from your Lord, this is the camel of God, in her you have a sign, so leave her to eat in God?s earth, and do not harm her, else the painful retribution will take you.?

Is this sign something forced or something to be obeyed by free will?

Salam Timur ,

The she-Camel itself is a sign to the people of Thamud because the she-camel was been sent to them.

The sign was sent to them

54 - 27

Indeed, We are sending the she-camel as trial for them, so watch them and be patient.

The sign was sent to them to confirm the messenger Salah's preaching , that he is carrying a message from allaah.

17 - 59

And nothing has prevented Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as a visible sign, but they wronged her. And We send not the signs except as a warning.

7 - 73

And to the Thamud their brother salih. He said, "O my people, serve Allah ; you have no ilah other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment.

The sign was a trial , and they were asked to abey allah's command regarding that sign , which is

7 - 73

And to the Thamud their brother salih. He said, "O my people, worship Allah ; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment.

and

26 - 155

He said, "This is a she-camel. For her is a drink, and for you is a drink, on a known day.

26 - 156

And do not touch her with harm, lest you be seized by the punishment of a terrible day."

As for Zakaryiaah the sign ( becoming speechless ) was for him to have confident about the fact that he is going to have child. Don't forget that he asked about a sign , why ? because he want to be confident , and this doesn't mean he wasn't believing

Affy77

Salam,

Wakas thank you for the thorough and in depth article on the topic. I have been trying to get to the bottom of all the rituals we are "supposedly" meant to be doing. these posts with the study helps so much.

The only things i would say is that for beginners as in (ARABIC LANGUAGE) it gets a bit confusing as its more targeted towards people who have already studied arabic and understand the grammatical nuances. However, it really is amazing the amount of research and care you have taken so may Allah reward you with the wisdom, knowledge and clarity you seek. I havent done as much language research but from very glaringly obvious contradtictions around the Cuboid in Mecca i was very sure that the we have got it wrong and we are in the wrong vacininty to start with. verses which for a novice like me are still very clear. EG. The verse which talks about the how they pass the signs of luts people day and night. That was enough. However there are many more. Anyone with a subjective and non dogmatic mind set can get to the truth as this is the sign where Allah guides whom he pleases.

NoShirk - I have to agree with your explaination.

Can you explain that finally what hajj is and where and when are we supposed to do it? Its only if these practices were adhered to and upheld that we would now be in requirement to do them but clearly the religion of Mohammed has been lost and so we must take what we can of the sciptures and use our reason and logic to litmus test it and move on. We must now ignore the rituals, find our salat (contact/prayer/meditation), give charity and be kind and above all be monethiests. God will give us new signs and help us become a nation again. We must stop searching the past and move to the future. We have the Quran as a guidance for that.

Ashraf - I have to say your explaination i found the best as it made logical sense also. Please can you elaborate on the below

Wakas

w/salaam Affy77,

I agree that for beginners this article will not be an easy read. However, in my articles I do try and make them relatively easy to check by providing references/tools. I strongly recommend using the links etc. It would take some time to check however as it is a lot of content.

If there was any part(s) in particular that were complex/confusing, please let me know, so I can see if I can simplify or explain them better.

Affy77

Salam Wakas and everyone,

As a third person i will advise you to take up this debate with Noshirk and Al kithab and other learned free-minders as this subject is still in question. I still cannot establish if we are supposed to do hajj? when we should do it? and what are the rituals that should be adhered to. I think you guys have enough knowledge amongst you to come to a conclusion Inshallah.

I would advise holding off on the article and exploring some of the points raised by the others. I do agree with the theory that all prohpets argued and put well reasoned and logical arguments to gain traction with the non believers and others. This is how they spread the message and delivered the message. He was a messenger after all as are we all really if we say we are believers, of course we are not prophets with miracles but we do have our minds and the guidance with us and can spread the message. How better than to have an annual recruitment day? Hajj? We lay the arguments and people get free food they see the good and the reasoning and how great accepting Islam is. This invite is after all to all of mankind? No? Its just basic logic in my opinion, no matter how much study of language.

I have re-read the arguments and i feel strongly that Noshirk is raising some valid points. Ashraf i like the way you wrote but i have to say after re-reading it that type of an understanding only leads me to doubt as it makes me think that the quran is not timeless or universal but rather only catering for the needs of a small demographic in the middle east centuries ago. The God is everyones God and there is a lot of man kind outside of the gulf peninsula, hence my reason nor logic allows me to beleive that the whole subject is about hunting restrictions etc, finding a loophole in restricted seasons etc, perhaps it was relevant then? I would love to read more from you guys on this if you can keep the debate going?

The biggest question raised in my mind is that who and how did we get to Mecca, the circling of the kaa'ba ,? Why with such clear geographical clues did we end up there? are we wasting our time even trying to find out? Perhaps we just be good to each other and belive in the oness of god? it may be good enough? I know i am loosing the will and getting more and more confused to be honest.... brickwall

I look forward to your replies if any inshallah.

Affy

Bender

Salam Wakas and everyone,

I know i am loosing the will and getting more and more confused to be honest.... brickwall

Affy

Salaam sis,

This is normal when we see that a lot (if not all) of what we were taught have some serious flaws.
Especially in the beginning of our journeys, sometimes it is almost overwhelming. If we not hold strong to Allah then we will for sure fall back from where we tried to escape from. But if we strive in the way of Allah and have patience, He will for sure get us out of these confusions and show us the correct direction.

Salaam,
Bender

Wakas

w/salaam Affy77,

I still cannot establish if we are supposed to do hajj?

al hajj, as per Quran, seems to require an authority (whether it be an individual or community) to setup a framework wherein the criteria for al hajj is met, and can thus take place. If no such setup exists, then I do not see how one can do al hajj at the present time.
If you meant Traditional Mecca-Hajj, then sure one can do that, but whether they would be fulfilling a Quranic hajj is another matter.

when we should do it?

when as in when specifically in the calendar was not covered in the article.

and what are the rituals that should be adhered to.

discussed in the article.

rguments and people get free food they see the good and the reasoning and how great accepting Islam is. This invite is after all to all of mankind? No? Its just basic logic in my opinion, no matter how much study of language.

I personally did not see any evidence from member noshirk, and have already replied to him.

The biggest question raised in my mind is that who and how did we get to Mecca, the circling of the kaa'ba ,? Why with such clear geographical clues did we end up there? are we wasting our time even trying to find out? Perhaps we just be good to each other and belive in the oness of god? it may be good enough? I know i am loosing the will and getting more and more confused to be honest.... brickwall

Personally, I think Quran is quite clear that the believers utilised the inviolable time of acknowledgement (al masjid al haram) and the homage/commemoration/conference (al hajj) in the latter stages of revelation. It seems they were simply tools to bring God's system/message/plan to fruition.
In my view, it is likely, the location was not set, as al hajj was criteria-led, and was later set by the ruling elites.

Wakas

peace all,

Update I have added a few minor clarifying statements to the article.

Jane

Hi,

I have briefly read the threads which say the pilgrimage place is not Mecca it is Jerusalem.

To save me having to comb through all of the threads can anyone tell me if they too currently hold this view?

I am wondering because I have already been on a kind of pilgrimage to Jerusalem (serious - I went on a school trip in 1999) and visited all the jewish/christian sites (although I can't remember if we went to that golden dome mosque place or if that is even significant). Does this mean I have fufilled the pilgrimage commandment?

Or does it not apply to me anyway?

Thanks.