Gay and Muslim?

[muslims]

This is the one of the key points of the discussion, but it seems some people abandoned it.

Salam

Another one of your baseless and self contradictory claims? laugh

Main issue

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341043#msg341043

Summary

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341257#msg341257

Current Issue, that need answer

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341428#msg341428

IF THEN ELSE.

IF gays are men
THEN gays must guard their private parts except from their spouses/wives
ELSE show an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation

Earthdom says...

This is the one of the key points of the discussion, but it seems some people abandoned it.

Review...

Muslims Give translation comparison and all are referring to "wives/spouses". (refer here, translation section)

Earthdom Raise an argument that the translation of "spouses/wives" is wrong because "azwaj or zawaj means mates" and it is "masculine in gender". Therefore there can be same sex marriage.

Verses about "guard private part" is 235-6

23.5 And who () keep covered their private parts.
23.6 Except around their mates (), or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.

The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.
The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!

Muslims Question that the word "mates" is referring to "spouses" or "wives", otherwise we will have a self contradictory Qur'an. In fact, there is no need rules for marriage in the Qur'an.

(detail, refer here)

Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?

All the rules relating to sexual prohibitions in the Qur'an is meaningless?

These rules? (refer here)

Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)

In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.

Is this your logic?

A self-contradicting Qur'an?

Earthdom Change his argument and agrees that "mates is referring to spouses". He is now contradicting from his main argument.

what I mean mate is spouse of course

If we look by the conteks of the verses, mates (zawaj) is spouse.Spouses is neutral in gender, it can be male or female.

However, he maintain the argument or insisting that "spouses" is masculine in gender.

The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!

The subject of verse 235 is allazi (masculine in gender), interestingly mate/spouse in 236 is also (masculine in gender).

Muslims Raise an argument that "spouses" is not gender, so as "marriage". Man or woman, boy or girl, male or female is gender.

Of course spouse is neutral. Spouse is not a gender. It represents both husband and wife and no gender! Can we say "husband spouse" or "wife spouse"? Is marriage a gender? Male or female, boy or girl, man or woman is gender. Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.

Earthdom Again, he is contradicting his own argument and make another blank denial, for ... times?

I never said spouses is gender.

Muslims Point out how he is repeatedly making self contradictory statements.

read again... and see how you contradict your own statements!

The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!

The subject of verse 235 is allazi (masculine in gender), interestingly mate/spouse in 236 is also (masculine in gender).

and the explanation...

refer here...

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309

and

By the way... when did "spouses" become a gender?

When did "mates" become a gender?

Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?

Which school?

Is "marriage" a gender?

Is "perkahwinan" a gender? Is a "man"?, Is a "woman"?, "lelaki"? "wanita"? laugh

Same as the words "mates"... it is general and includes animals or other living creatures.

and "spouses" is specific to human beings.

animals don't have "spouses" or "wives"...

Therefore and since Allah is saying about specific gender, ie. "Men"... then it must be "spouses" or "wives"

It means marriages according to the Qur'an; ie. "wives"

How can you compare with something in "general" when Allah is "specifically" referring to human beings and "private parts"?

You can't compare apples to oranges, or distort oranges to be apples.

Further, "marriages" or "spouses" is not gender.

Male and female, boy and girl, man and woman is gender.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309

General

mate 1 (mt)
n.

1. One of a matched pair the mate to this glove.
2. A spouse.

a. Either of a pair of animals or birds that associate in order to propagate.
b. Either of a pair of animals brought together for breeding.
4.
a. A person with whom one is in close association; an associate.
b. Chiefly British A good friend or companion.
c. A person with whom one shares living quarters. Often used in combination advertised for a new flatmate.
5. A deck officer on a merchant ship ranking next below the master.
6. A U.S. Navy petty officer who is an assistant to a warrant officer.

Specific to human beings.

spouse (spous, spouz)
n.
A marriage partner; a husband or wife.
tr.v. (spouz, spous) spoused, spous?ing, spous?es Archaic
To marry; wed.

http//s10.postimg.org/q7yexo3k9/mates.png

and...

By the way, don't rely too much on your Ajami Arabic and/or modern/persian grammar?

and.. since the Qur'an is in the Quraish Dialect .. and it has been more 1,400 years.

Therefore, try also to understand the context, apply wisdom and clear thinking! (as what you have said).

Then, follow the simple rule.

Wisdom and Clear Thinking = No Contradiction With Other Rules/Verses!

and his reply

Your premis is okay according to me.

Yes I believe that, there is no mixing for akal and the bathil.I agree for your view.

and then...

Earthdom Sudden change of topic, as usual.

The term "men" is too general, so in what context.

Muslims Deny that sudden change of topic and point out the objection has no merit.

So you don't agree "Gays" are "Men"?

There is no merit in your objection, unless you can prove gays are not men.

It is so since the issue you raise is about gender, and it is either "man/ boy/ male", or "woman/ girl/ female".

Choose one.

Similarly, the Qur'an also speak about "man/ boy/ male" or "woman/ girl/ female". There is no in between or else.

Earthdom Earthdom playing dumb, and tricks ... to avoid answering the real issue (refer here and here).

Sorry muslims, your reply actually not replying my post.

I never said if gay is not a man.
Please don't raise a little issue, like gay is not man if you want get to the point.I'm not an underage child, so don't use burden for proofing ).

Muslims Proof and that he is playing dumb or tricks.

No it is not, I am replying to your post or question.

Read for yourself what your wrote.

The term "men"
is too general
so in what context

See? you say the "term men"

What is the issue?

You are saying the term is "too general"

In other words, you are saying there is "general" and "specific" "term" relating to "men".

and... you need to find out their "context" to differentiate these terms relating to what is "men".

and what did I answer you?

So you don't agree
"Gays" are "Men"?

There is no merit in your objection
unless you can prove gays are not men

There is no "general or specific" men in the Qur'an.

There is only "man" or "woman".

Earthdom He then stops answering for days... and now, suddenly, making new baseless claims, to start all over again.

This is the one of the key points of the discussion, but it seems some people abandoned it.
The word "mates" indeed show neutrality because they're masculine.

insisting on his misinterpretation and ajami arabic grammar?

and totally disregarding the elements of "no contradictory rules" in the Qur'an?

comparison

We have discussed this issue, repetition.

Refer here.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341306#msg341306

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341336#msg341336

Summary

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341257#msg341257

Main issue

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341043#msg341043

AND... still no answer for the following question... (refer here)

Muslims Please answer the following question, rather than making false claims in the name of Allah.

and how many times you are using deception to avoid the issue... raising one after another?

Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?

Which ayat? show me...

give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".

So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?

Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"

Which ayat?

How many times I have to ask you, and how long you want to play dumb?

So.. where is the ayat to show that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

Where is the ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which others are subject?

Therefore...

QUESTION

IF THEN ELSE.

IF gays are men
THEN gays must guard their private parts except from their spouses/wives
ELSE show an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation

If you are true, then don't try to play dumb or tricks, and answer that simple question.

You are making a false conclusion in the name of Allah.

Do you fear Allah?

And indeed, there is among them
a party who alter the Scripture
with their tongues
so you may think it is from the Scripture
but it is not from the Scripture
And they say,
"This is from Allah
" but it is not from Allah
And they speak untruth about Allah
while they know
(37

Do you remember the following statements?

there is no verse in the Quran which prohibit same sex marriage, if that verse is exist, just bring it to me.

If you disagree with this, then bring me one verse in the Quran which told us to judging or punish gays and lesbian.If you capable, I will hail to you.

If you do, then why you are playing tricks?

The problem of difference in tafseer within Quranist is lack of study and lack of wisdom and clear thinking.
....
I try to use wisdomly conclusion for this cause

Yes Earthdom,

You are right, wise.
Whereas everyone on here is stupid.

Where is your "wisdom and clear thinking"? yeah

Please answer the question.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341428#msg341428

Peace

[unknownuser]

@Muslims, I will stop discussion with you if yu keep order me to follow your own RULE.

But I have one alternative, if you want continue the discussion, then answer this first ;

Which ayats that backed your statement (premis)?

|
Premise 1

|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

|
Premise 2

|
Gays are men and have "private parts"

|

|

|
Therefore (rule)

|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

|

|

Before I follow your rule, I want discusss your rule's validation.

Peace

[muslims]

your question...

Which ayats that backed your statement (premis)?

and which is contradicting your own facts...

And verse 7029-31 is a repetation of 235-6.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341141#msg341141
what I mean mate is spouse of course

Your premis is okay according to me.

and...

Before I follow your rule, I want discusss your rule's validation.

which you already agree...

Then, follow the simple rule.

Wisdom and Clear Thinking = No Contradiction With Other Rules/Verses!

No valid argument can have one or more false premises and a true conclusion, garbage in garbage out.

Yes, ok I will follow.

That tablet which I know as modus ponen during my high school time ago.
Actually what I problemed is not your premis knowledge, but your Quran tafseer.
Your premis is okay according to me.

Yes I believe that, there is no mixing for akal and the bathil.I agree for your view.

*highlight/link is mine

Salam

Playing tricks again? nope

Please answer the question.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341428#msg341428

and also refer here for main issue..
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341257#msg341257
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341043#msg341043

Please don't waste time and answer this simple question... )

Show me an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which all men are subject.

Simplified..

IF THEN ELSE.

IF gays are men
THEN gays must guard their private parts except from their spouses/wives
ELSE show an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation

Peace

[unknownuser]

I already told you if you your Aristoteles knowledges contains some faulthy.

You always pick some part of my post then judge me wrongly. and this is my full post

Yes, ok I will follow.

That tablet which I know as modus ponen during my high school time ago.
Actually what I problemed is not your premis knowledge, but your Quran tafseer.
Your premis is okay according to me.

Yes I believe that, there is no mixing for akal and the bathil.I agree for your view.

What I mean is

|
Premise 1

|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

|
Premise 2

|
Gays are men and have "private parts"

|

|

|
Therefore (rule)

|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives

|

|

Your premises pattern is not wrong, but this conclusion is based on your intepretation from the Quran
Your wrong is in your intepretation of the Quran.

Now simple, if yu want further, answer my question.

Peace

[muslims]

You always pick some part of my post then judge me wrongly. and this is my full post

Salam

I always pick some part of your post then judge you wrongly?

You must be kidding...

Look again.. .what is your question? o

Which ayats that backed your statement (premis)?

your question is relating to
"Which ayat"
"that backed"

and when I give you the ayat

It is supposed to mean something else? brickwall

What I mean is

Your premises pattern is not wrong, but this conclusion is based on your intepretation from the Quran

How it is logical to relates...

"Which ayat"
"that backed"

with the above answer relating to "my premise and conclusion"? confused

same here... and lots more, so obvious.. tricks

Secondly,

Your premises pattern is not wrong, but this conclusion is based on your intepretation from the Quran
Your wrong is in your intepretation of the Quran.

and what did I answer, which you then suddenly change the topic to what is "men"?

Therefore, bring other verse relating to "men" and "private parts".

You can't compare apples to oranges, or distort oranges to be apples.

Bring another same premises from the Qur'an that relating to "men" and "private parts".

This is you how contradict an ayat from the Qur'an without contradicting other verses in the Qur'an.

and...

That is why I'm asking you to show me an ayat that Gays are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts", because gays are "men" and have "private parts". Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with that rule.

Same as the words "mates"... it is general and includes animals or other living creatures.

and "spouses" is specific to human beings.

animals don't have "spouses" or "wives"...

Therefore and since Allah is saying about specific gender, ie. "Men"... then it must be "spouses" or "wives"

(added for understanding of the issue)

The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.

It means marriages according to the Qur'an; ie. "wives"

How can you compare with something in "general" when Allah is "specifically" referring to human beings and "private parts"?

You can't compare apples to oranges, or distort oranges to be apples.

Further, "marriages" or "spouses" is not gender.

Male and female, boy and girl, man and woman is gender.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341307#msg341307

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341309#msg341309

http//s10.postimg.org/q7yexo3k9/mates.png

meaning of spouse, husband or wife.

So.. let me confirm it again with you for the (x) times, you mean it as "spouses"?

Yes, by looking of verse's context.

Meta-search tool indexing 13 million words from 1,000 dictionaries.
http//www.onelook.com/?w=spouse&ls=a

Roget's Thesaurus
http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/spouse?s=t

or

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
http//education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/spouse

Collins English Dictionary
http//www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/spouse

Oxford Dictionaries Online
http//www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/spouse?q=spouse

Merriam Webster
http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spouse

Cambridge
http//dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/spouse?q=spouse

Macmillan
http//www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/spouse

Abbreviations.com
http//www.abbreviations.com/SPOUSE

Definitions.net
http//www.definitions.net/definition/spouse

Vocabulary.com
https//www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/spouse

No. 4. YES, you agree the word marriages" means "marriages according to the Qur'an", except in (235-6), ie. zina prevention.

No. 5. YES, you agree that the issue of zina prevention in (235-6) is your own personal terms and does not relate to the Qur'an. It should not be discussed.

okay.. giveup and will stop my discussion with you...

I cannot understand your English

and neither you can understand your own English or what you wrote

and then.. you are blaming other people for your inability to understand what you ask people...

this has happened for so many times and I got really bored with this miscommunication

and further...

you don't have the ayat to support your conclusion

despite how many times I ask or trying to explain it to you..

you will play dumb, tricks and blame others, then start all over again to rely on your wishful thinking.. your dogma.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is probably what?

Peace

[unknownuser]

Thanks for get discussion with me, atleast I know ur mind-maps now handshake

Peace/Salam

[GODsubmitter]

I think God cares more how you treat people then who you go to bed with!

[muslims]

Sure, since when asking questions and justifications is more evil, unjust and should be give less priority (awwaliyah) than those who making false claims in the name of Allah? laugh

or maybe the rule is still the same and it is beyond human control, no matter how nice or polite you are... proven by all the Prophets themselves, or else different path...

Well, anyone would wish to bang your head against stone

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences <- all TRUE premises
you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval
They are almost on the verge of assaulting <- bang your head against stone
those who recite to them Our verses
Say, "Then shall I inform you of worse than that?
the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve
and wretched is the destination."
(2272)

It's okay and not feel threatened by it.. I've experienced it everywhere and anytime, even much bigger than this. It is life and I live in a Muslim country (Sunni and all Islamic Fanatics), what do you expect? Heaven? Maybe it is the same everywhere, its either Believers or Disbelievers.

[diamantinehoneybunch]

I understand why some people like their same sex but I don't understand why some people like people's butts.

[Man_of_Faith]

muslims,

Bang your head against stone is because of your lousy behavior and has nothing to do because of your twisted understanding of Qur'an which I do not care the slightest about. It is because of the fact you make fun of people who discuss here that I wrote that and not because of your weak faith. You have no reason to be frightened since you are safe behind your computer in a foreign country and I cannot look you up and crush your head against the wall somewhere. But you care not about the fact people think like this of you and that there has to be a reason in yourself for this and instead go on so half the forum will dislike you soon. I would not want another person to do my head in and would start working on reconciliation instead of intensifying my utterly lousy behavior.

If you were smart you would realize people do not dislike you for your opinions but for your sarcastic and insulting way of dealing with them. But you have absolutely nothing of faith and righteousness absolute zero which is due to the no faith scenario. And you talk about God and parrot verses from Qur'an like you understand something. If you understood even the gist of Qur'an you would see that behavior was a very important part of the Message.

Obedience you say, obedience, do you obey? What the hell is this obedience? Live in the way of God and you have your "obedience". Is this a neanderthal god you follow? Do you obey discussing in the friendliest possible manner? I suggest you go print your posts in a printer and eat up your own paper.

Copy-pasting verses and give examples from it when you do not even follow it yourself. I suggest you pray more for Nearness and Guidance and quit fooling around here on this forum.

And pleeeeeeaase, do not come up with your normal mental responses fighting back like a teenager and heed the the comments on behavior instead. I know about my own behavior and need no further information.

Honestly would you treat people like this in your real life surroundings and I suppose no one would stand you. But I suppose you are just glued unto your computer chair and do absolutely nothing but sit and preach your shit around here while bothering people with your flimsy character and sarcastic remarks. Spend more time with God and real life than on your arrogant layout of your posts. You cannot live by words alone anyway.

[muslims]

Bang your head against stone is because of your lousy behavior and has nothing to do because of your twisted understanding of Qur'an which I do not care the slightest about. It is because of the fact you make fun of people who discuss here that I wrote that and not because of your weak faith. You have no reason to be frightened since you are safe behind your computer in a foreign country and I cannot look you up and crush your head against the wall somewhere. But you care not about the fact people think like this of you and that there has to be a reason in yourself for this and instead go on so half the forum will dislike you soon. I would not want another person to do my head in and would start working on reconciliation instead of intensifying my utterly lousy behavior.

Thank you.. and there it goes, citizen of the Paradise and sounds the same like many sunni and shia fanatics in my country. No wonder many are leaving you, very lonely person.

Great is hatred
in the sight of Allah
that you say
what you do not do
(613)

and don't worry.. I don't care much about what people think since the rules is still the same when you are making a statement from ALL TRUE PREMISES... I have already tried to prove every facts from the Quran for so many years.

or maybe the rule is still the same and it is beyond human control, no matter how nice or polite you are... proven by all the Prophets themselves, or else different path...

Further, you have already decided that I belong to Hell Fire, do you still remember? laugh

Please send my regard to Allah, I'll be waiting in the Hell Fire.

And you talk about God and parrot verses from Qur'an like you understand something. If you understood even the gist of Qur'an you would see that behavior was a very important part of the Message.

That is their wishful thinking, Say,

"Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

and again, sorry... you are still indoctrinated by the Christian Ideology

preaching it as Islamic Ideology while promoting disobedience to the clear prohibition in the Quran

here is my proof...

And DO NOT eat of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned <- disobedience
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you
and if you obey them, you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists. (6121) <- Muhammad will not be a Muslim

and...

And indeed, you (Muhammad)
are of a great moral character <- great character, no use if disobey Allah
(684)

It is not like what the priests are preaching in church.

In Islam, it is justly balanced. Islam requires us to think.

quote...

twisted understanding of Qur'an

Obedience you say, obedience, do you obey? What the hell is this obedience? Live in the way of God and you have your "obedience". Is this a neanderthal god you follow? Do you obey discussing in the friendliest possible manner? I suggest you go print your posts in a printer and eat up your own paper.

Yes.. depends on the person I'm discussing with.

If he is an illegitimate pretender and a garbage, then I automatically have the right to treat him a little bit below than a garbage.

And if you punish
punish with an equivalent
of that with which you were harmed
(68126)

quote...

twisted understanding of Qur'an

However, no need for equivalent, and normally I just laugh at their silly comments...

There is no harm in a forum discussion

and there is no valid reasons at all to take it seriously and be emotional in a forum discussion. Rebellious and childish.

Is it hurting if everything is not according to your rules? laugh

Too much wishful thinking, and I don't how your post is contributing or answering the issue of this thread (refer here and here). You are not referring to the Qur'an and make your personal opinions and wishful thinking from the start. Now, you are calling people "rebel" (refer here), "curse them to hell" (refer here and here), make hate comments (sectarian), and make so many "blank accusations" (refer here) which I don't bother to reply, and simply because they are referring to the Qur'an and have different perspectives. In conclusion, you are the best of all and will be entered into Paradise, and without any needs to refer the Qur'an. It is always other peoples' problems and be in hell (refer here). Please send my regard to Allah, I'll be waiting in the Hell Fire. In fact, I'm not afraid of the Hell Fire!! ;D

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences <- all TRUE premises
you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval
They are almost on the verge of assaulting <- bang your head against stone

Insults, needless to say, are not productive in the objective pursuit of truth.

[savage_carrot]

This thread has run its course and has been locked. Please read the forum rules.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0