She's Not Naked !!!
-
Peace -- that men and women believers are advised to control desires theirs (lower gaze) and guard private parts; i.e. no sex except with spouses or mutually agreed willing cohabiting partners in order to be successful same as advise to stay away from drinking and gambling...
Peace,
You are right. I was only responding to the bikini subject which may not be right with reference to those ayats in which Allah says, "protect your gaze and guard your private parts." The bikini surely invites the ogling of men and the gaze of women themselves. And later on their private parts are self-violated while in their privacy, falling a prey to the shaitans' inducements. By this I am not indicting shaitan but the satanic instinct itself, ever alive in humans. Allah says Be vigilant about your gaze and safeguard your PPs.
The red part needs clarification; I do not get what you mean by that statement. Are there provisions of exceptions to drinking and gambling too, as you had said in the matter of sex ?
-
How does the bikini not guard the private parts?
That is precisely what it does cover. It is not wearing a bikine what would uncover the private parts.
On the other hand it is bathing with something else, that when wet clings to the skin, that can revealing the shape thus adding to the temptation with the pull of the "unseen but imagined". Again it is a question about the looker, not about the looked upon. It is a questinf of "protecting the own sight".
If you oggle, you oggle, it is not the guilt of somebody who does not exhibit anything at all, but of the oggler. And, I must add, admiring beauty is not the same as oggling. Adn we know the difference too well.
In the beaches where people are not ogglers lookingt for human meat, a bikini does not cause any more attention than a normal swimming suit and certainly much less than a woman who would bathe in her street clothes, which, as said, would cling, thus feeding the ogglers to their hearts content.
Guarding the private pars, goes way beyond covering or uncovering. If the Qur'an meant "cover" it would have said "cover". It is guarding their purpose, their rightful use, their protection from everything harming spiritually or bodily.
A bikini, or a swimming suit, is appropriate in bathing settings, obviously not in any other setting. In a beach where a normal usage of the space is bathing, everybody bathes or expects that people there will bathe and dress accordingly.
Again, it is a matter of attitude. Unless we are speaking about prohibiting people from bathing, any clothes worn will have the effect of clinging, on males and females. That is where the "protect your gaze" would be appropriate.
In many muslims environments too much stock is taken of covering or not covering, almost exclusively concerning females, and very, very little concerning the male responsibility to guard their private parts. In fact, the less moral of the males throw their private parts to the wind when they want to be tickled by anything that they imagine is a female, whether covered or uncovered. No wonder they are the ideal prey and instrument for the moral disintegration of traditonally muslim societies. But they comfort themselves that it is women who are spoiling the societies, so they can carry on being the way they are, since they are already acquitted of anything, by the very fact that the guilty is always the woman "because God says so". That is the equivalent of Eve being the guilty of the orirignal sin of the Christians, but while the Christians are now forgetting about that, "muslims" are relishing on the original sin caused by the "inmodesty" of women.
We can keep distracting ourselves with that for a few centuries more. It seems that it is a lot of fun.
Salaam
-
I initially didn't want to join this discussion,
But through strange circumstances I came across this hilarious article rotfl rotflThe Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al Youm summarized some of the Al Azhar study's main findings and assertions on November 15 in a article entitled (in translation), "Muslim Brotherhood fatwas A woman swimming is an 'adulteress' and touching bananas is 'forbidden.'"
The study revealed that some of these fatwas decreed that women who swim in the sea are committing "adultery" -- even if they wear a hijab "The reason behind this particular fatwa, from their point of view, is that the sea is masculine , and when the water touches the woman's private parts she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."
From Egypt's Latest Fatwas from Salafis and Brotherhood
http//www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4069/egypt-salafi-fatwas -
I initially didn't want to join this discussion,
But through strange circumstances I came across this hilarious article rotfl rotflThe Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al Youm summarized some of the Al Azhar study's main findings and assertions on November 15 in a article entitled (in translation), "Muslim Brotherhood fatwas A woman swimming is an 'adulteress' and touching bananas is 'forbidden.'"
The study revealed that some of these fatwas decreed that women who swim in the sea are committing "adultery" -- even if they wear a hijab "The reason behind this particular fatwa, from their point of view, is that the sea is masculine , and when the water touches the woman's private parts she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."
From Egypt's Latest Fatwas from Salafis and Brotherhood
http//www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4069/egypt-salafi-fatwasOh dear God... touching bananas is "forbidden"???? Some people are truly sick on this Earth... i mean people joke around and say don't eat a banana in the street but this is just extreme........!!
peace
-
I initially didn't want to join this discussion,
But through strange circumstances I came across this hilarious article rotfl rotflThe Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al Youm summarized some of the Al Azhar study's main findings and assertions on November 15 in a article entitled (in translation), "Muslim Brotherhood fatwas A woman swimming is an 'adulteress' and touching bananas is 'forbidden.'"
The study revealed that some of these fatwas decreed that women who swim in the sea are committing "adultery" -- even if they wear a hijab "The reason behind this particular fatwa, from their point of view, is that the sea is masculine , and when the water touches the woman's private parts she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."
From Egypt's Latest Fatwas from Salafis and Brotherhood
http//www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4069/egypt-salafi-fatwasI initially didn't want to join this discussion,
But through strange circumstances I came across this hilarious article rotfl rotflThe Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al Youm summarized some of the Al Azhar study's main findings and assertions on November 15 in a article entitled (in translation), "Muslim Brotherhood fatwas A woman swimming is an 'adulteress' and touching bananas is 'forbidden.'"
The study revealed that some of these fatwas decreed that women who swim in the sea are committing "adultery" -- even if they wear a hijab "The reason behind this particular fatwa, from their point of view, is that the sea is masculine , and when the water touches the woman's private parts she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."
From Egypt's Latest Fatwas from Salafis and Brotherhood
http//www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4069/egypt-salafi-fatwasPeace,
These are sick to the core, the rotten ones in the human society. If bananas are forbidden to women then use the same yardstick for men it is haram for men to touch melons, cattle's milk extracted by kneeding their mammary and seed-removed jack-fruits, the oranges, the mangoes, water melons are all the forbidden fruits.
-
Salam,
How does the bikini not guard the private parts?
Again it is a question about the looker, not about the looked upon. It is a question of "protecting the own sight".
If you oggle, you oggle, it is not the guilt of somebody who does not exhibit anything at all, but of the oggler. And, I must add, admiring beauty is not the same as oggling. Adn we know the difference too well.
In the beaches where people are not ogglers lookingt for human meat, a bikini does not cause any more attention than a normal swimming suit and certainly much less than a woman who would bathe in her street clothes, which, as said, would cling, thus feeding the ogglers to their hearts content.
Guarding the private pars, goes way beyond covering or uncovering. If the Qur'an meant "cover" it would have said "cover". It is guarding their purpose, their rightful use, their protection from everything harming spiritually or bodily.
A bikini, or a swimming suit, is appropriate in bathing settings, obviously not in any other setting. In a beach where a normal usage of the space is bathing, everybody bathes or expects that people there will bathe and dress accordingly.
Again, it is a matter of attitude. Unless we are speaking about prohibiting people from bathing, any clothes worn will have the effect of clinging, on males and females. That is where the "protect your gaze" would be appropriate.
In many muslims environments too much stock is taken of covering or not covering, almost exclusively concerning females, and very, very little concerning the male responsibility to guard their private parts. In fact, the less moral of the males throw their private parts to the wind when they want to be tickled by anything that they imagine is a female, whether covered or uncovered. No wonder they are the ideal prey and instrument for the moral disintegration of traditonally muslim societies. But they comfort themselves that it is women who are spoiling the societies, so they can carry on being the way they are, since they are already acquitted of anything, by the very fact that the guilty is always the woman "because God says so". That is the equivalent of Eve being the guilty of the orirignal sin of the Christians, but while the Christians are now forgetting about that, "muslims" are relishing on the original sin caused by the "inmodesty" of women.
We can keep distracting ourselves with that for a few centuries more. It seems that it is a lot of fun.
Salaam
Salam
huruf,I bring to your mind to reflect on the following verse and say your comments and see if you want to retract most contents of your post.
3332 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft and sweet even in speech to men, lest he in whose heart is evil desire should desire, so speak with appropriate speech.
There is something to discuss in this, if you wish.
-
Remember that women are to let their head cover fall over their breast area, to conceal the size of it, you know, not the tip of the breasts or its surrounding, but obviously the size. Also they must not walk in a way that their steps shake their body so that a private part moves (you see the seriousness/graveness of wearing a bikini now?). This all means a woman should not ever go out in a bikini, but also must PROPERLY dress. Not just loose clothing, but perfect dress code according to God's teachings.
Women must conceal their hair too. Seeing how otherwise they have nothing to let fall over their breast area. Their garments are only for the husband.
Believing women are to be warned about this dress code. The thread maker and huruf seem to not know that, and instead believe the Quran is in accordance to their idea of a woman not being naked, but in a bikini, out in public is okay.
People should fulfill their own duties.
-
Remember that women are to let their head cover fall over their breast area, to conceal the size of it, you know, not the tip of the breasts or its surrounding, but obviously the size. Also they must not walk in a way that their steps shake their body so that a private part moves (you see the seriousness/graveness of wearing a bikini now?). This all means a woman should not ever go out in a bikini, but also must PROPERLY dress. Not just loose clothing, but perfect dress code according to God's teachings.
Women must conceal their hair too. Seeing how otherwise they have nothing to let fall over their breast area. Their garments are only for the husband.
Believing women are to be warned about this dress code. The thread maker and huruf seem to not know that, and instead believe the Quran is in accordance to their idea of a woman not being naked, but in a bikini, out in public is okay.
People should fulfill their own duties.
You are saying "the Qur'an says", but it is you who say that, not the Qur'an. It is the people who want the Qur'an to say what it does nto say who harp on an on on the Qur'an says this or that, because the Qur'an does nto day it. Because if it did, there would be no question. So it is your words. The qur'an does nto say anything about any volume, and the body of a woman, or a man is nto something to to be ashamed of nor a source of evil. That is the usual misogynistic christianity which seems to have seeped so much into the islamic mind set. Woman is not equal to sin. And a woman's body is not more an invitation to sin than a man's. And if something seems to invite us to sin, then WE, ourselves, must avoid it. We cannot make other people slaves to our whims just because we do not want to take responsibility for our own deeds.
Salaam
-
You are saying "the Qur'an says", but it is you who say that, not the Qur'an. It is the people who want the Qur'an to say what it does nto say who harp on an on on the Qur'an says this or that, because the Qur'an does nto day it. Because if it did, there would be no question. So it is your words. The qur'an does nto say anything about any volume, and the body of a woman, or a man is nto something to to be ashamed of nor a source of evil. That is the usual misogynistic christianity which seems to have seeped so much into the islamic mind set. Woman is not equal to sin. And a woman's body is not more an invitation to sin than a man's. And if something seems to invite us to sin, then WE, ourselves, must avoid it. We cannot make other people slaves to our whims just because we do not want to take responsibility for our own deeds.
Salaam
You are nothing close to a good example for Islam. Nice one though. Lol.
Obviously you are trying to get away with saying that the Quran doesn't speak about and also teach how to dress. As if people will find your made up facts to be more fitting for the usual lifestyle, and therefore conclude you are right. Are you serious? This is just about your ego and justifying your baseless Islamic way of life?
No one cares what you say or believe, just like you blindly state that my post isn't in accordance to the Quran. No one must correct you. People recite the Quran every morning and night. They follow all commands and they clearly know what the Book says. Not to mention that you don't seem like you would want to change your "oh so" moral ways. >
You seem rather arrogant and ignorant, nothing like Islam should be. Try not to act so smart and right about universal matters, when you are simply justifying your ignorance. Change your life and you wont need to.
P.S. The way the teachings are described in my first post on this thread is exactly how the Quran teaches, not the exact words but the same meaning. Anyone who recites the Quran, outside of curious reasons, knows this.
-
Salam,
Salam
huruf,I bring to your mind to reflect on the following verse and say your comments and see if you want to retract most contents of your post.
3332 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft and sweet even in speech to men, lest he in whose heart is evil desire should desire, so speak with appropriate speech.
There is something to discuss in this, if you wish.
I really do not see much connection between one thing and the other. To start with, 33.32 refers exclusively to the Prophet's wives, in fact it says clearly "you are not like any other women". That is, the wives of a particular person who is known widely as a prophet, and of that particular prophet within their own context. The context is not that of bathing in a public bathing place, and that is exclusvely what we are talking here about. So really no, I do not see a connection.
And I understand the injunction as a means of protection for the prophet's wives, not a s a means of protection for the evil thinkers, except indirectly. Yes, surely, a prophet's wife or widow, in time, may be a great asset for covetous or ambitious males, that would make them almost as successors of the Prophet and therfore of his power. Yes, better cut out outright that kind of speculations and doings.
I wouln't say though that a beach is a place where anybody can have the greatest hopes for scalating socially through anybody's wives. Jetset's social events are more prone to that or the entourage of people with power withing whatever limited setting, like spiritual groups or sects or whatever. A beach? To a beach people go mostly anonymously for health, rest and healthy fun. Also, in inhibited settings, males, like a pest, may go there to oggle and they may be very abundant, like in many laces in Egypt today. Too bad for them and for the whole of the population because they make hell for themselves and all the people, unable to have a decent rest and solace.
Women in those opressing, restriting settings certainy suffer from the bad minds and manners of consented males, who behave as if they owned the whole earth and above all, of the women that walk on it. That is a social mental deasease, which thanks to religious manifpulation they think that it is not their disease, but their own good right.
I would NEVER, NEVER, recommend to women who are not in that way restricted to start restricting themselves so that they can promote the worst in males arrongance and possessiveness. Rights, if not used, are lost. They would start against bikinis now, and it would end with women out of every public place, and the whole of society transformed in a garbage dump. No thanks.
Actually beaches, in non restrictive settings are quite pleasant and healthy, where everybody is courteous and minds his or her own business. Please do not let the idea grow that filthiness must exist whatever the cost where there is no such thing, and that if filth does not reign supreme it must be installed whatever the cost. Please, please, don't.
Salaam
Salaam
-
You are nothing close to a good example for Islam. Nice one though. Lol.
Obviously you are trying to get away with saying that the Quran doesn't speak about and also teach how to dress. As if people will find your made up facts to be more fitting for the usual lifestyle, and therefore conclude you are right. Are you serious? This is just about your ego and justifying your baseless Islamic way of life?
No one cares what you say or believe, just like you blindly state that my post isn't in accordance to the Quran. No one must correct you. People recite the Quran every morning and night. They follow all commands and they clearly know what the Book says. Not to mention that you don't seem like you would want to change your "oh so" moral ways. >
You seem rather arrogant and ignorant, nothing like Islam should be. Try not to act so smart and right about universal matters, when you are simply justifying your ignorance. Change your life and you wont need to.
P.S. The way the teachings are described in my first post on this thread is exactly how the Quran teaches, not the exact words but the same meaning. Anyone who recites the Quran, outside of curious reasons, knows this.
Salaam.
I have my ego, you have your ego. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Salaam
-
I also say to you, no thanks, I am well served with what God has granted me. Very, very well served and I am very, very thankful to Him and to the person He has awarded me. May God bless him forever, and bless all the men who are faithful to Him and not arrogant nor boastful but, as good people and good men, are always willing to protect and help their society, rather than command others around. May God bless them always and make present to them the depth of the gratitude of the people who love them from their hearts.
Salaam
-
I also say to you, no thanks, I am well served with what God has granted me. Very, very well served and I am very, very thankful to Him and to the person He has awarded me. May God bless him forever, and bless all the men who are faithful to Him and not arrogant nor boastful but, as good people and good men, are always willing to protect and help their society, rather than command others around. May God bless them always and make present to them the depth of the gratitude of the people who love them from their hearts.
Salaam
Your sincerity towards unrighteousness is not going to make it acceptable, why are you praying on a forum anyway, are you in a state of ablution? Who do you think is better according to God's opinion/judgment? Is it someone that takes the safe approach and regards the teachings of the Quran to mean what they should mean. Or someone who nullifies them, as if they were mentioned for no reason.
It is mentioned that men should teach the believing women to throw the excess of their head coverings over their breast area. How can one go from this to thinking it's completely acceptable for women to display body in a bikini to the public?
Peace
-
Women in those opressing, restriting settings certainy suffer from the bad minds and manners of consented males, who behave as if they owned the whole earth and above all, of the women that walk on it. That is a social mental deasease, which thanks to religious manifpulation they think that it is not their disease, but their own good right.
Correct,
Nomadic and hunter-gatherer human society views 'the female of our enemy / not within our group or tribe' as among 'the hunted game', they're free to take, if you can 'hunt' them. This view is consistent to be found across all nomadic / hunter-gatherer society, from dessert Arabia, Europe, up to Mongolian steppes.If you read the Hadith and Tanakh, women are among the 'spoil of war' to be taken..
The Romans, although they claimed to be the 'most civilized society' during their time, also take women from their conquered neighboring 'barbaric' tribes as spoil of war.Heck, even as late as 1945, The Russian troop raped 2 Million Germanic women as they put a siege to Berlin!
So does the Japanese towards Chinese, Korean, Thais, Vietnamese and Malay women!This is actually the 'default' view of our "highly civilized ancestor".
And I think the reason the Quran put a recommendation to women for not 'attracting any unwanted attention' (through their clothing, jewelry) is for the sole reason of THEIR OWN SAFETY and SECURITY. In other words, do not wear or do anything to attract attention from those "highly civilized gentlemen" around you.
In similar manner as I will recommend any women to not wearing any jewelry when they're going into Detroit !
Because there's plenty of "highly civilized gentlemen" to be found there..If the place is safe enough, feel free to dress in any manner that you want..
Dress code has nothing to do with morality.Salam / Peace
-
Correct,
Nomadic and hunter-gatherer human society views 'the female of our enemy / not within our group or tribe' as among 'the hunted game', they're free to take, if you can 'hunt' them. This view is consistent to be found across all nomadic / hunter-gatherer society, from dessert Arabia, Europe, up to Mongolian steppes.That's disgusting.
If you read the Hadith and Tanakh, women are among the 'spoil of war' to be taken..
The Romans, although they claimed to be the 'most civilized society' during their time, also take women from their conquered neighboring 'barbaric' tribes as spoil of war.Another very displeasing belief by majority of the muslims. Women were actually helped, brought to the city of the Messenger probably to some refugee camp where they would get helped and could then marry a man if they agreed to it. But not have sex, they weren't simply given out to men, but men could ask for one if that man was reliable according to the Prophets judgment and if the woman wanted him as well. As you may know from the Quran, God tells Muhammed to let the captive women into a mans possession if he is good, meaning to take care of her, get married to her.
Therefore there is no such thing as women spoils of war, or attaining a slave woman as an option given to men in this world.
It is only in the case of a real war where women who had husbands end up alone and have no means to support themselves. At that point the leader, takes them to his city and controls the captives until they find a way. It has nothing to do with men taking them and having sex with them. Wow!Heck, even as late as 1945, The Russian troop raped 2 Million Germanic women as they put a siege to Berlin!
So does the Japanese towards Chinese, Korean, Thais, Vietnamese and Malay women!This is actually the 'default' view of our "highly civilized ancestor".
Disgusting
And I think the reason the Quran put a recommendation to women for not 'attracting any unwanted attention' (through their clothing, jewelry) is for the sole reason of THEIR OWN SAFETY and SECURITY. In other words, do not wear or do anything to attract attention from those "highly civilized gentlemen" around you.
That isn't so good, as God clearly states that men get desirous of women, and he clearly states that they should display their garments only to their husband, and that's garments, not their sexual appeal.
In similar manner as I will recommend any women to not wearing any jewelry when they're going into Detroit !
Because there's plenty of "highly civilized gentlemen" to be found there..Of course, women should avoid dangerous situations at all times.
If the place is safe enough, feel free to dress in any manner that you want..
Dress code has nothing to do with morality.And you do this instead of teaching women to dress modestly? Lower their gaze? Cover their breasts using the excess scarf of her head which implies is to be covered as well. To not display their garments to people other than the ppl mentioned in the Quran? And to not stomp hard so as to shake the private parts of the body?
Instead of teaching them what you should, you tell them to feel free to dress any way they want?
Dress code is part of morality, and besides it has everything to do with what God teaches his creatures.
Peace
-
Peace,
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
This verse suits the context of that article about women who swim commit adultery and eating bananas is immoral.
God bless you
-
Peace to all,
Conclusion from the thread
The book (2431) teaches "and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments" but as it does not speak about the beach then some (women) assume it is alright to go around in bikinis, hiding only parts of the breast and small parts from gluteus maximus?
Wisdom?
Peace
-
Peace to all,
Conclusion from the thread
The book (2431) teaches "and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments" but as it does not speak about the beach then some (women) assume it is alright to go around in bikinis, hiding only parts of the breast and small parts from gluteus maximus?
Wisdom?
Peace
Why do you say maximus? In fact what you are describing looks like minimus as bikinis go. I wonder what kind of bikinis you have been lokking at and how much you have measured of what they covered. I am impressed, such precision. But that assertion shows bias on your part to portray bikini as disreputable as possible, never mind acuracy.
And in the thread not only women, as you purport, have spoken as bikini being right in the beach. In fact it has been only one woman and severla men doing so. More bias.
What I find weird is that nobody seems to find anything wrong with oggling, while many seem ready to give lessons to women over and over and over ad nauseam as to modesty, more modesty, more modesty and tons of it, but oggling... who cares? Great prospects for muslims, really.
Salaam