TSUNAMI - who Allah destroys ?

Elena

Peace Beatnik,
how well organised and well written post. Of course I agree with the content but I have some dificulties with the words, with the form

-I see again the references to God as if it was something specific, something that 'doesn't interfere', 'it is not involved', 'He operates'...I mean, something easy to grasp, specific, something we refer as if God was a person

-I think some of the words you use, 'Islam, common sense, straight path, intelligent and bening, true peace', can be exchanged, I mean, 'true Islam' can be replaced by 'righteousness', being 'righteousness ' applied to righteous system, not only to the commonly known 'Islam' as the label that so many times has been discussed in this site.

-to end, the 'Islam' you were referring, is the 'Islam' of the label, or the wisdom, common sense and righteousness way?

beatnik

Peace drfazl, from those verses I am forming the opinion in my mind that when nature attacks people, it is with the grace of God. Think, everything except human beings is muslim, everything submits to God's laws, they're inspired by and submit to God. So on the one hand, yes, God sent down a rain of stones on a city, but that wasnt an exclusive event, because God sends down rain on us peacefully all the time. God is at the same time, responsible for everything and yet not responsible for everything. God is responsible for everything in our existence, so saying he sent the tsunami specifically is narrow minded, because he sent everything to us, and is continuing to do so. But like I say, it is up for debate whether events like the tsunami are directly and specifically sent by God, and I guess thats what we're doing!

When a bad civilisation is hit with nature, and people die, I think they die because they were not prepared as muslims would be. Muslims live in harmony with the natural environment, muslims have the foresight to care about each other and build structures that would protect them from freak weather. Non-muslim civilisations wouldnt act like this, they are arrogant in the land and uncaring, and thus they are eventually destroyed, I think this is what God is trying to say to us with His similitudes.

I must repeat what I said earlier, because this is another reason why the Islamic civilisation slowly turned back into barbarism, people shed their responsibility and became fatalists, attributing everything that happened to them to God. When you use fate as an excuse, you think you're not accountable for your actions or inactions, but God is always watching. We, as human beings with free will, have to take responsibility for our lives, for the planet. Unfortunately, the majority of mainstream 'Islam' isnt doing that, they leave everything to God, but my question to them is "What is your purpose in life? What are human beings here for?" and the answer surely is two-fold To live, and to serve God. They dont seem to be living much, in my opinion, and whether they're serving God is again up for debate (alot on this site!).

Peace Elena, when referring to God, as human beings and with the English (in my case) language, it is inevitable that when referring to a third entity or being, its going to sound like a person. The fact that I'm saying 'He' is proof of this, but its better than 'It' in my opinion. My previous post was trying to actually refer to God as something not human at all, though you've read it opposite from my intention. I'm trying to say people think God acts like a human, with vengeance or revenge, or anger, when I'm sure God is beyond anything we can comprehend. So you see, my thoughts at this point in my life, are to avoid trying to attribute or attach human qualities to God (except the attributes 'He' calls 'Himself' by in the book to make it easier for humans to understand), and the thought that God purposefully sent a tsunami to a region on Earth that is not behaving righteously doesnt strike me as correct.

As for the word 'Islam', this is a troubled word, with alot of different meanings derived from it. When I say Islam, I just think of what is outlined in the book delievered by the last prophet and messenger. Everything in that is Islam, the purpose of humanity, the way we are meant to act, etc. I dont think of whats going on in the real world when I say that word, I'm trying to keep it in my heart as an ideal, the peaceful Way. I say 'true' Islam because I've never seen Islam in action in the real world, its got this layer of falseness over it, people with beards and turbans, women covered up, corrupt countries constantly at war, that doesnt look like Islam to me.

The thing with labels is, its hard to shrug them off completely, we have language at our disposal to communicate, and we have to resort to labelling certain things, its inevitable. I've tried to shrug most of my labels off, I just want to be known as a muslim human at the end of the day.

unknownuser

Salaamun Beatnik and Dr. Fazl
I like what both of you have to say and want to bounce somethings off of you brothers.

Peace drfazl, from those verses I am forming the opinion in my mind that when nature attacks people, it is with the grace of God. Think, everything except human beings is muslim, everything submits to God's laws, they're inspired by and submit to God.

I'm going to make a small point, but I think it a worthwhile one. It is my understanding that only human beings can be muslim. I say this, because to be must muslim one must willing submit and, given that the animals, flora and the elements have no will, they cannot in fact submit/be muslim, thus, while being in a state of Al-Islam, they are not actually muslims. Do you agree?

So on the one hand, yes, God sent down a rain of stones on a city, but that wasnt an exclusive event, because God sends down rain on us peacefully all the time. God is at the same time, responsible for everything and yet not responsible for everything. God is responsible for everything in our existence, so saying he sent the tsunami specifically is narrow minded, because he sent everything to us, and is continuing to do so. But like I say, it is up for debate whether events like the tsunami are directly and specifically sent by God, and I guess thats what we're doing!

I've always struggle with how to determine what is from Allah as punshment and what is the result of man's negligence/benightedness. It appears from the English translations that, the People of Nuh for example, were destroyed by natural forces as a direct result of their inordinate behavior. Prior to their destruction they were warned by Nuh and when the penalty came upon them, they did not even recognize it as such. Given what happened with the tsunami, and if it was a direct punishment from Allah, how would people be able to rationally connect the event with their misbehavior? No one came to them and said.. "if you do not change your views on deen, then you will be destroyed". So, the event, as you've articulated, looks more like the result of natural phenomenon at work and people were destroyed not because of their polytheism, but because of negligence in regard to being prepared properly to defend against natural upheavals. With this in mind then, the people of those areas and elsewhere, do not have to change their views on deen, but rather, must become more deligent in safeguarding themselves against natural upheavals.

Now, on the other hand if the tsunami was from Allah as a chastisement, as some here believe, then how do Muslims effectively articulate this to the world; how do we connect these dots?

unknownuser

Salaamun Zenje

I think it's interesting to see the difference with the animals too. I don't count domesticated animals in that group. They have too much human influence. Wild animals on the other hand (not tamed or in zoos), do sense nature in a different way. I also wonder how close this area is to the ocean.

Yes, I've wondered too about the proximity of the animals to the shore. It would be interesting that, even if they weren't close to the shore, but still felt something was wrong and sought higher ground anyway. Let me know if you here anything in regard to this.

unknownuser

Salaamun Dr. Fazl

The fact that the animals are not destroyed by the tsunami is an indication that god's wrath is upon the human indifference towards being righteous. There is still time allowed for the entire humanity that they be god fearing orelse, the animals and all the creatures will be wiped out from the surface of the earth.

Does this necessarily mean that Allah's wrath is upon humans or that the animals have a built-in disaster indicator and instinctively know when danger is present and thus move away from it?

EYE_C-U

Salam to everyone in this forum,

I have read almost all of the comments and the minute by minute accounts of those who were actually present at the time of this soul shaking event. It is easy for us all to jump to conclusions.

Why did God allow this to happen? Why did so many have to die? What did God mean by this?

At the same time at any given minute, we too can be destroy in a similiar kind of manner! Death is inevitable for all that lives and only God the Most high knows our date, where and way of dying, no matter where or who we are! In this event there are many signs for us how we can be wiped out in an instant. We seen to be focused more on the tsunami and Gods wrath instead of seeing the other side to this. I do not just see the devastation, instead of the overall many meanings. I see PEOPLE of every race, nations and creed coming together. And for what? To help mankind! To show that they have faith and they hear the calling in their hearts to help. All that have survived this devastating tragedy will see the love of God in the face of every human beings that reaches the hand out to help. Those who give what they have to help.

I see more than devastation. I see healing! People coming together and perhaps God will change the condition of all of those who survide. He know what he is doing by this.

Maybe a great change is on the way, and yet all we can do now is wait and do whatever possible to help. Things like sending donations,food, clothing and such if we have it. And pray that God blesses humanity to open their eyes and see the bigger picture. There is life and death. Hope and dispair. Happiness and pain. Love and hate. Being brave and fearful. We should choose the strongest from these attributes and lend our hand, hearts and kind words working toward the betterment of mankind,
and solutions instead of assuming and aggrivating the problem with our assumptions.

Like I said earlier, at any given monent those people could very well be us. Don't forget that was a mass distructive event that had occured, but some of us live in constant devastaion with no earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, tornados,ice storms and such occurs. This life is merely to test us. We do not know God's plan by this. It could have been to cause us to awaken and react.

I can see this as a process to see who will be selfish and condenming and who are true servants of God. Even if they have no other contributions to give other than kind words and prayer for health and speedy recovery for all that was affected by this.

" We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives and crops. GIVE GOOD NEWS TO THE STEADFAST. When an affliction befalls them, they say," WE BELONG TO GOD , AND TO HIM WE ARE RETURNING." {2155-156}

We should not hasten to claim we know the reasons why this all happened.

Beatnik wrote

When a bad civilisation is hit with nature, and people die, I think they die because they were not prepared as muslims would be. Muslims live in harmony with the natural environment, muslims have the foresight to care about each other and build structures that would protect them from freak weather. Non-muslim civilisations wouldnt act like this, they are arrogant in the land and uncaring, and thus they are eventually destroyed, I think this is what God is trying to say to us with His similitudes.

Beatnik, I am not trying to single you out, but this statement is a bit off. There are machine, computers and other devises to determine earthquakes,volcanos and other natural disasater. To say that "muslims" would be more prepared is an inaccurate statement. God talks about no matter where you are if death is meant for you or some kind of calamity you can not escape it nor avoid it.

No matter how prepared these people "may" have been there would have been no way to stop this if it is God decree.

Salam to all of you,

eye c-u

beatnik

I'm going to make a small point, but I think it a worthwhile one. It is my understanding that only human beings can be muslim. I say this, because to be must muslim one must willing submit and, given that the animals, flora and the elements have no will, they cannot in fact submit/be muslim, thus, while being in a state of Al-Islam, they are not actually muslims. Do you agree?

Peace Bokmei, this is quite funny, because your above description, describes what a muslim is to me perfectly! Animals, flora and the elements dont have free will, they didnt accept the 'tyrst' with God, only the human soul or consciousness did, therefore only we have the choice in whether we will be muslims or not. Everything else in the universe is a muslim, because it submits to God without question. The planets move in their orbits, the soil comes to life again due to rain and the bees and ants do their thing seemingly on automatic. Everything in the universe obeys God and His laws (of gravity, physics, everything), but only human beings (and Jinn) have the free will to be stupid enough to disobey.

Given what happened with the tsunami, and if it was a direct punishment from Allah, how would people be able to rationally connect the event with their misbehavior? No one came to them and said.. "if you do not change your views on deen, then you will be destroyed". So, the event, as you've articulated, looks more like the result of natural phenomenon at work and people were destroyed not because of their polytheism, but because of negligence in regard to being prepared properly to defend against natural upheavals. With this in mind then, the people of those areas and elsewhere, do not have to change their views on deen, but rather, must become more deligent in safeguarding themselves against natural upheavals.

This quote and this one

Beatnik, I am not trying to single you out, but this statement is a bit off. There are machine, computers and other devises to determine earthquakes,volcanos and other natural disasater. To say that "muslims" would be more prepared is an inaccurate statement. God talks about no matter where you are if death is meant for you or some kind of calamity you can not escape it nor avoid it.

I shall attempt to answer at the same time, peace EYE C-U.

Yes, there are machines, computers and other devices that can read and to some extent predict natural disasters, but tell me did any of these save the 100,000 in Asia? Who owned these equipment? Countries that are corrupt to their core and are not muslim in their very nature. A muslim isnt just someone who prays to God, a muslim is one who lives righteously, someone who lives at peace with animals and the environment, someone who is not afraid to use their mind and imagination. A muslim nation would be the most advanced nation on earth, because they would have the foresight protect its citizens.

I agree that when death comes for you, it comes for you. My main proint is that Islam is a way of life, its not centered around worshipping, its practical. You must recognize your Creator, and you must also learn how to live properly. God says Islam is the perfect system, any other system is bound to fail and people who follow other systems will live in misery, as we're seeing right now around the world. Islam is a guide on how to maintain relationships, with other people, with animals, with the environment and with God. A muslim nation would for the most part be peaceful I imagine, and natural disasters would occur less, because I suspect the impact of humanity is mostly to blame for them, and even if they did occur at the regular rate they do these days, humanity would suffer less losses than it does now because it would be a more compassionate form of humanity than we know at present.

I see alot of compassion these last couple of days, from people giving money and aid away, but where was the compassion before this event took place? Would it have cost so much for any rich nation to help a poorer nation with a warning system? Does it cost too much even now? Look at the state of Africa, everyone likes to point and frown and have meetings, but nothing's being done. Zimbabwe currently is in the grip of a dictator a million times worse than Saddam, but nobody does anything, nobody helps. Look at the Arab nations, the richest on earth, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, what do they spend their money on? Lots and lots of hotels! I know Saudi Arabia has also given away some aid, but its pretty paltry compared to other nations who are not even as rich. Its the kind of act that a country does just to fit in, not because they honestly care. Also, dont even get me started on the 'royal' family, dont they know all sovereignty belongs to God?

Anyway, I'm stunned by the international response in any case, its very heartening to see, its gives me hope.

Elena

Thanks for the answers Beatnik,
-I understand you on point about language
-with respect to

When I say Islam, I just think of what is outlined in the book delievered by the last prophet and messenger. Everything in that is Islam, the purpose of humanity, the way we are meant to act, etc. I dont think of whats going on in the real world when I say that word, I'm trying to keep it in my heart as an ideal, the peaceful Way.

Do you think that common sense, good Govts., righteousness are possible just under
what is outlined in the book delivered by the last prophet and messenger
?

I know you have said later that
A muslim isnt just someone who prays to God, a muslim is one who lives righteously, someone who lives at peace with animals and the environment, someone who is not afraid to use their mind and imagination. A muslim nation would be the most advanced nation on earth, because they would have the foresight protect its citizens.

Then, the focus is not 'Islam' and 'muslim' but 'right' and 'wise'.
My conclusion, the name of the belief is not important.

naxus

Peace to every one here TSUNAMI app 1,25,000 dead human life wut is it in one instance u r looking towords future with hunger that u will do well u will see n get great thins but TSUNAMI show us that human life can be nothing n future is just the name of a floating body in sea there were childrens young peoples middle aged peoples n old peoples but to TSUNAMI they were all same just i guess in one instance we feel that we r on the top of world we think we r important atleast to our love ones but on the other hand we r just a digit from 1 to 1,25,000 no name no importance just a digit a cruel lesson from life itself but we should try to help them who servives and may not take our life as granted but to use it instead of to waste it may Allah help us n increase our knowledge peace

drfazl

May Allah Grant Wisdom
Brother beatnik,

Are we not aware muslim is a specific title, awarded for god-fearing humans alone? Other creatures are submissinve to God in that they serve us. We, as humans serve only God, imbibing Wisdom from Him by being His submissive representative, and by practising in our lives His Qualities such as patience, truthfulness and peace. To such people is His Wisdom blessed; that to them is the heavens and the earth and everything inbetween made subservient sothat they govern over the universes. This is God's Law.

053.031
And Allah's is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth, that with it, He may reward those who do evil according to what they do, and He may reward those who do good with goodness.

There are two ways before us; the righteous and the evil way. The heavens and the earth were already commanded by God, to submit to everything that a peaceful people wish for. Such are the people belonging to the right hand. Any people involve in mischief, causing confusion and blood shed are the people belonging to the left hand. The heavens and the earth must keep a close watch on our deeds weighing our good and bad with precision and accuracy haply we might be rewarded or punished appropriately. Everything is so immaculately predistined by god in such a way that for every act of good there is such and such reward; and, for every act of bad there is such recompense towards which effect the heavens and the earth shall react against the erring people or community; and also predistined is a time period, before we reach the Hour of recompense either individually or collectively. Once we reach the Hour, our torment will not be delayed even by a second, nor its delivery shall be advanced by moment. Allah is swift in reckoning.

The recent "Tsunami" is one such event wherein the heavens and the earth awaited the Hour to come before it completed its task. This is the command by Allah to the heavens and the earth when they were created. Thus the order was predistined for humans. The more the good we do and the more pious we are, the more the Wisdom and the Power from Him to command the nature that it becomes submissive to us. We could stop the tsunamis or cool down the sea by a simple command within our heart such as "be" and it shall be!

As Musa cleaved the sea and Nooh asked the heavens to stop raining and commanded the earth to swallow up the flooding, let us too follow the messengers' pathway towards righteousness in that, that we do not commit association with God in any manner. Our common mistake either knowingly or unknowingly is the association of our knowledge with God's Wisdom and Power. Even now, we are dealing with how to save ourselves from tsunamis in the future using our miniscule knowledge, despite our awareness we are never to succeed in this. Without knowing the answer as to how? why? what? and wherefrom the disasters originate, is it possible to prevent or eradicate tsunamis, floods, volcanos, earthquake, famine, diseases, distresses and disasters and their repitition in quick successions? We definitely associate our knowledge with God's Wisdom. Does it mean We are awaitng a greater disaster unknown to us and from an unknown origination? Yes, we are!

drfazl

Salaamun Dr. Fazl
Does this necessarily mean that Allah's wrath is upon humans or that the animals have a built-in disaster indicator and instinctively know when danger is present and thus move away from it?

PB, May God Bless

I agree with your points you have posted, very much sensible.

Speaking from Quran, the animals do not have such special indicator, for there were many cattles and cows dead caught in the tsunami. All the creations are living for the sake of humanity, by His Decree. If ever we see the living creatures' extinction from the earth or their mass elimination, it is very well an indication that there is an impending disaster, the end of humanity or the world.

beatnik

I know you have said later that
A muslim isnt just someone who prays to God, a muslim is one who lives righteously, someone who lives at peace with animals and the environment, someone who is not afraid to use their mind and imagination. A muslim nation would be the most advanced nation on earth, because they would have the foresight protect its citizens.

Then, the focus is not 'Islam' and 'muslim' but 'right' and 'wise'.
My conclusion, the name of the belief is not important.

Yes, but there has to be a name, a signifier for us to recognise the meaning. You yourself just used 'right' and 'wise' knowing that I also know the meaning of these words. I know many here on these forums try to not use labels and specific words, but know that words are just words, and as Rama from The Matrix Revolutions says "It is the connection the word implies" that is important.

To put the quote in context

Neo I just have never...
Rama-Kandra ...heard a program speak of love?
Neo It's a... human emotion.
Rama-Kandra No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies. I see that you are in love. Can you tell me what you would give to hold on to that connection?
Neo Anything.
Rama-Kandra Then perhaps the reason you're here is not so different from the reason I'm here.

Rama-Kandra That is our karma.
Neo You believe in karma?
Rama-Kandra Karma's a word. Like 'love.' A way of saying 'what I am here to do.' I do not resent my karma - I'm grateful for it. Grateful for my wonderful wife, for my beautiful daughter. They are gifts. And so I do what I must do to honour them.

Drfazl, interesting words, I shall ponder them.

Peace all.

Elena

I know many here on these forums try to not use labels and specific words, but know that words are just words, and as Rama from The Matrix Revolutions says "It is the connection the word implies" that is important.

Yes. I learnt that here at FM. Before, I just knew the traditional idea of 'muslim'.

shamsul-arefin

peace to all,

As I think or punishment and mercy is like when we dont practice our God given brain to understand the sysetm and cant figure out on avoiding such natural activity than it becomes a punishement because of our own shortcoming. but blessing is when are are able to predict those natural happening and able to take proper action than it becomes a mercy. so its all upon us...)

peace

unknownuser

Salaamun Beatnik

Peace Bokmei, this is quite funny, because your above description, describes what a muslim is to me perfectly! Animals, flora and the elements dont have free will, they didnt accept the 'tyrst' with God, only the human soul or consciousness did, therefore only we have the choice in whether we will be muslims or not. Everything else in the universe is a muslim, because it submits to God without question. The planets move in their orbits, the soil comes to life again due to rain and the bees and ants do their thing seemingly on automatic. Everything in the universe obeys God and His laws (of gravity, physics, everything), but only human beings (and Jinn) have the free will to be stupid enough to disobey.

It would be helpful then, if you would post an ayat where Allah substantiates your view. I must agree with Dr. Fazl, when he wrote this

"Are we not aware muslim is a specific title, awarded for god-fearing humans alone? "

beatnik

Peace all,

shamsul-arefin, I agree with you.

PRIEST_BOKMEI, I'm not an expert with lots of suras and verses ready at my disposal, lol, but doesnt 'muslim' mean one who submits to God and His laws? Why would this term only be exclusive to human beings? We always see verses saying how things such as planets and animals 'prostrate' to God, are they not then muslims? They follow a part of Islam, the main part, of submitting to God unquestioningly (the Quran repeatedly alludes to creation as a living thing, such as a mountain crumbling in awe of God, etc), wheras humans have extra rules layed out for them because we accepted free will. We need to know how to come to grips with this decision we made before we were even born, and the Quran is a mercy for us, a guide to deal with responsibility.

Honestly, this is the way I've seen it for a while, human beings accepted free will, Islam is based on choice, its forbidden to go around forcibly converting people, everyone has the choice in what they do on this planet, that is the whole purpose of our existence, because if we had no choice then there would be no point to all this. We make choices and then are judged for them. I'm sure there are verses where God asks everything in creation to follow Him, and everything submits, except this form of matter or entity that eventually became us. Human soul or consciousness accepted free will, I think we're even called 'foolhardy' for doing such a thing.

I guess I'm going off topic now, but I want to assure you just because I'm promoting free will for human beings, that does not mean I'm taking away anything from God, because as we all know God is omnipotent and all powerful. He can see us outside of time and space, like the way He created the universe, as if opening a scroll. We are in that scroll, our timeline, and our choices, and God can see it all, past, present and future, but just because He knows, it doesnt mean we have no choice. We know where the earth and moon will be in 10 years time, but that doesnt mean we caused that to happen. Understand? I do believe God answers the prayers of good muslims, but its not in a way that most people think, its not black and white, its in some kind of subtle way that works within this sytem of life, I'm still formulating thoughts on how it occurs.

We have to take responsibility for our actions and inactions or we'll suffer God's wrath, make no mistake. Check out the thread I made 'The Dark Age of Islam' see what happens when you shed your responsibility and become a fatalist.

Everything in the universe does what it must, everything submits to God without question, the universe is muslim. Only human beings have choice, and God has been merciful to us in giving us a guide on how to deal with this massive responsibility, and we should be thankful everyday of our lives for that.

Peace.

Olusanya

As'Salaam Alaykum All,

Excellent points Beatnik!

I'm not an expert with lots of suras and verses ready at my disposal, lol, but doesnt 'muslim' mean one who submits to God and His laws? Why would this term only be exclusive to human beings? We always see verses saying how things such as planets and animals 'prostrate' to God, are they not then muslims? They follow a part of Islam, the main part, of submitting to God unquestioningly (the Quran repeatedly alludes to creation as a living thing, such as a mountain crumbling in awe of God, etc), wheras humans have extra rules layed out for them because we accepted free will. We need to know how to come to grips with this decision we made before we were even born, and the Quran is a mercy for us, a guide to deal with responsibility.

The responsibility of being a khalifa... a representative! The one thing that is certain about the tsunami event is that many people died and many are suffering as we speak. Death is the "great equalizer" and the power of life and death belong to Allah alone. Birth and Death belong strictly to Allah, as well as everything that happens in between. Human beings as the Khalifa of Allah have been given the "awareness" of Allah within their "being". The ability to be conscious or aware of the Divine Consciousness/Being" that gave birth to their existence, and the ability to either submit to that "Being" and be rewarded with a straight and harmonious path or... rebel from it and create a crooked path full of suffering, based upon false pride... because you thought that awareness of self gave you a will other than Allah's... a "false sense of pride". The same type of pride Iblis demonstrated when he was asked to bow before Adam. Our submission is neither greater or less than anything else in this creation. We have no "will" per se, that is an illusion created by our ego's .

because I'm promoting free will for human beings, that does not mean I'm taking away anything from God, because as we all know God is omnipotent and all powerful. He can see us outside of time and space, like the way He created the universe, as if opening a scroll. We are in that scroll, our timeline, and our choices, and God can see it all, past, present and future, but just because He knows, it doesnt mean we have no choice. We know where the earth and moon will be in 10 years time, but that doesnt mean we caused that to happen. Understand? I do believe God answers the prayers of good muslims, but its not in a way that most people think, its not black and white, its in some kind of subtle way that works within this sytem of life,

We don't need to know why the tsunami occured, only that it is the will of Allah. However, we know what the Qur'an says about the unity of Allah's creation. We know that as long as human beings are suffering, we are suffering. We know that as long as we claim to be muslim and Mu'min then it is our responsibility to ease suffering, to establish peace, to promote harmony within Islam . We are here to serve this creation, to "serve" as Allah's representative. Our status as muslims or mu'min will be determined by our actions in accrodance to that.

Everything in the universe does what it must, everything submits to God without question, the universe is muslim. Only human beings have choice, and God has been merciful to us in giving us a guide on how to deal with this massive responsibility, and we should be thankful everyday of our lives for that.

Absolutely! Now... do we sit here and make judgements about why the tsunami happened, or do we look to the Qur'an for guidance on how we may ease the pain and suffering caused by the tsunami and how we may restore peace to the areas effected by it. How may we address the "living" according to the guidance of the Qur'an?

That "individualized awareness" we have been given is not a "free will". First... it is not a will, Allah's will is the only reality. Second... that awareness is not "free", it comes with the price of responsibility, the cost of being a representative of the Boss... a khalifa. Our limited intellects could not explain what happened any better than they could have prevented it. We are not the reason for this universe... Allah is. Let us aceept what Hu has caused to be... and act accordingly, using the Qur'an as our guide.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

beatnik

Peace Olusanya, you make some very good points, thanks for replying.

progod

The United States is the most powerful nation on earth. Does that mean that it is the most right, the most wise? Maybe it is and those of us who envy its success should recognize right as right and wrong as wrong. Or atleast recognize what is more right from what is more wrong.

Should we generalize and include the beliefs of the whole nation of United States citizens or the beliefs that govern the nation?

I have believed for a long time that civilizations/ whole communities are destroyed when its people no longer permit its citizens to worship God freely, as they feel fit. Whether that destruction be the scattering of the civilzation or its destruction by some natural disaster.

But as it was stated earlier God determines when our time to die is, and death is never a punishment. Death is a natural step so that we can go back to God and be judged by Him for what we did in our lives.

I think it should be taken into consideration that

1.Passing away from this life is never a punishment

The disintegration and failure of a community is a punishment.
Punishments are necessary lessons for all of us to learn from. They hurt the pride and union of whatever community they befall but they force us to reconsider that pride and the basis of that union.
Destruction of civilizations has to do with God causing a civilization to fail, not through causing it's members to pass away.
The formula that

Passing away or being killed (whether massive or local) = punishment

is a wrong idea and I have found it most prevalent amongst American Christians.

Death has more than one meaning
We use it to refer to any passing away from this earthly life.
We use it to refer to people or things that feel no purpose in life, who are not animated. Basically all things that we can lable as lifeless.

Passing away from this earthly life is not a punishment no matter how we go.

Dying and/or being destroyed in its metaphorical sense is to be erased completely and never remembered, to walk the earth without purpose, to be ignorant, dull, hard-hearted and hard-headed. This is the death and the destruction that I find is being talked about in the Koran when it mentions that 'the dead don't hear,' that people are 'dumb, deaf and blind' or that God destroyed civilizations for their abusiveness.

Godbless,
Anwar

beatnik

Look at the different responses of various faiths here

http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4138095.stm

Ironically as you can tell from my previous posts in this thread, my view is apparently closer to christianity than the so called muslim view given here. This is the exact fatalist view that was shown at the beginning and all throughout the Dark Age of Islam, the loss of the Golden Age of learning and acheivement. And it is the attitude displayed now, and look at the state of islam today.

(I obviously dont believe Jesus is alive, etc, but the man has a point in that people are quick to blame God for bad things, when God makes it clear that any bad thing that happens is our own fault)