Looks Like I Planned to Leave Islam .......
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Qur'an is from God;
The we must have valid proof for how this is from God.
Just consider we're an atheist, know nothing bout religion, Quran, Torah, Veda etc.What methodology we used to proof the Scripture is true.
The analogy is you visit a tribal area who know nothing bout monotheism, then just give them the Quran.I'm sure they will ask many questions like me in my refutation thread.
Diacritics and such things are just additions, these original scripts had no such markers. They should be used carefully to understand the Message as some fool might have added them or simply an ambitious person but fallible and thus could do mistakes.
All semitic (Hebrew-Arab etc) contains consonant words only (YHWH =Yahweh)
Diacritic is used for non-Arabic to made them easy to read Arabi text, but if they already mastering Arabic vocabularies the diacritic/harakat/tashkill is not a must
What is Sabbath?? Using Quran Alone ?? We refers Torah? It cannot because it forbidden in Quran (7750) ;D.
God bless u
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Peace All,
There are many levels of belief from certainty to kufr, there is a place for everyone. Where one sits on the scale
is exactly where God has decided they belong, it is no accident. God's guidance is the greatest
benefit in this life as well as the next. These are the fortunate ones. A person's journey will ultimately be
determined by God. Believers need little proof while non-believers need immense proof. The question is
how do we know that the Quran is from God? We know for sure as we know our children exist!God bless
peace
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Peace Earthdom,
Trust me, an atheist can turn into a Believer all by himself and can also adopt Qur'an. That is what I did. It is the passages that you read of Qur'an that makes you realize it is from God.
We have talked about it before, but you cannot prove Qur'an as much as you can prove God. Well, proving things is very relative anyways. It is what the Qur'an contains, i.e the Message that must either make you believe in it or not believe in it. There is certain things such as code 19, but it takes another step of belief too. Then you must believe that it adds any coherence to it. I am sad to hear that you have lost your trust in Qur'an as the narrations of God and I hope you can understand that you are mistaken soon. When you see us dispute over all kinds of things here on this forum you need to know that it is we that are complicating things and not God who made it complicated. All the bad things are from us.
The Message is probably simpler even at the state we have taken it to right now. Fasting is likely not 30 days as there is not enough proof of that from previous texts recorded in those who followed the Message in the past. We need to remember God did likely not make the Message harder at the advent of Qur'an. It is our ignorance that has turned Islam into a religion full of rules. Our devotion and service to God should come from ourselves. I assure you that you could skip Qur'an and live your life in service of God and be mindful of the Lord and do good and behave well while believing and you would surely still be admitted into Heaven. Thus is the Message of the Lord. Even verses of Qur'an confirms this. You could basically even create your own religion and follow some basic rules and God would accept you if you did not do evil or vice but believed that God was ONE and did good. I promise you; one could even read the Bible and look beyond the obvious perversions and be a good worshiper. I was unitarian Christian before I encountered Islam and Qur'an and I was hence a Muslim before that and I could surely gone to Heaven anyway, at least on the premise of Knowledge.
God bless you
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Dear Man of Faith,
May peace be unto you.
A part of your above post is certainly misleading. You are saying that a person will still be given the abode of paradise even without believing the final message. Your statements are partially true, and not entirely. God may forgive if a person never gets the final message of the Quran in his entire lifetime before facing death, but according to the Quran, it is highly unlikely that God would forgive someone when the final message, the Quran, reaches to him and he studies the message, and yet rejects it in the end.
The rejectors were destroyed when they didn't believe in the message of the messenger
"Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre a messenger..." (2859)
This verse below tells us that even an idolator is not a kafir by default when he doesn't know about the message of God
"And if anyone of the idolaters seeks thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of God, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not." (96)
But after studying the message, if the idolater rejects it, then he enters into the state of disbelief, he becomes a kafir, he becomes a rejector.
The winners are those who believe in the messenger when the message reaches them, and the losers are those who rejects it when the message reaches them
"In the end We deliver Our messengers and those who believe Thus is it fitting on Our part that We should deliver those who believe!" (10103)
Unfortunately, if brother Earthdom now does not believe in the final messenger and in his message and dies in this state, I'm afraid to say that he and his likes would be doomed to hell unless of course God forgives, but it is unlikely.
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Salaam Man of Faith and Scribbler.
I'm not arguing bout this anymore.I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic.
I still believe in God, whoever He is.What I just do know is a re-evaluation to prove whih one is the God's revelations?
And it has some possibility if I back to using Quran again.Quran contais some beautiful and words of advice, but I don't see Scripture just because of that.
Bible, Veda even Ahadith has also many beautiful verses, but is there any contradictions and fallaay in there to knowing if that's God's word?Now I think Quran has many based on study and experieces/empiric.
Oh yes the title is also misslead, I should change "Looks Like I leave Quran".
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Peace,
There is just one Message. If you believe in it, i.e believe in God while doing good then you are fine. Qur'an is but a reminder and tool to use on the path. This is the problem of the belief of kitab as book, it causes this.
I have a hard time understanding how one can disbelieve in Qur'an as not inspired by God though. It was something I became very sure about a few years ago that it was one of God's marvels even if it would not entirely by 100% pure it is the best scriptural Guide to help one believe and understand the creed is mainly about being mindful of God, purify oneself and do good. It is not much else as much as I could find. It does not teach evil so to say.
I was sad to see you turn away from Qur'an and that you cannot see they are only righteous signs from God, what is relevant of this scripture anyway.
God bless you
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I was sad to see you turn away from Qur'an and that you cannot see they are only righteous signs from God, what is relevant of this scripture anyway.
Peace Man of Faith,
Do not be sad, believe/accept all of the Quran
We know that you may be saddened by what they say. You should know that it is not you that they reject;
it is GOD's revelations that they incorrectly disregard.I am not sad, offended or put-off by Earthdom's admission, on the contrary, what we are witnessing is God's decree,
and God is in control of all things.If their rejection gets to be too much for you, you should know that even if you dug a tunnel through
the earth, or climbed a ladder into the sky, and produced a miracle for them (they still would not believe).
Had GOD willed, He could have guided them, unanimously. Therefore, do not behave like those who do not know.Earthdom, do not be offended by my words, when the time is right for your submission, we will celebrate
and glorify God with his praises.God bless
peace
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Salaam all
I have a hard time understanding how one can disbelieve in Qur'an as not inspired by God though.
The Quran sound plausible to you because it's translation.
Quran's translations have so many inputted words, change real meanings by assumptive methodologies of course,so the Quran will sound relliable.
Monotheist Translation also one of them.But if you ever read Quran in Arabic, you will found many insane Arabic pattern which will make you confused and hard guessing.
Earthdom, do not be offended by my words, when the time is right for your submission, we will celebrate
and glorify God with his praises.I never felt offended , I always be open-minded to everyone.So don't worry )
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Peace Earthdom,
The word "agnostic" may not be the best word to describe you now because agnostic is about knowledge, not belief. Agnostic generally means someone who cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God. That's why I consider myself as an agnostic THEIST because I think God exists but cannot really prove it.
The best word to describe people like is sceptic.
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Agnostc-ignostic is about belief, but too find true belief we need knowledges.
I just believe in God but no religion.
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Belief in God but no religion? Deist? Deists believe that God exists but not religion. They believe God is IMpersonal and doesn't intervene in people's lives.
Or you are simply an irreligious monotheist?
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Or you are simply an irreligious monotheist?
It also possiblity I believe god is Deva Shiva or Devi Quan Im ;D
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Peace Earthdom,
But if you ever read Quran in Arabic, you will found many insane Arabic pattern which will make you confused and hard guessing.
We must still be reminded that it is a book written over a millennium ago. Languages and style change and thus something seem strange later on. I highly doubt that Qur'an is exempt from that. Someone who wrote the intricate story or narrations of Qur'an cannot have been stupid and must have mastered the language at its time, that you find the Arabic patterns insane is likely due to you and other people who try to read it over 1400 years later.
When I read a Swedish book from 500 years ago I also find the language strange and I can barely understand it. So why do you think we have a problem reading Qur'an which is more than double that age?
Also I continue to urge you to reconsider the word kitab in Qur'an to literally mean book and try to read whole of it without applying it to a concrete item.
God bless you
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Yes Man of Faith, langauage will face metamorph as time passed.
I also didn't capable to read older texts from my place, like Book of Sutasoma, it sound like different language.
I believe Quran used Classical Quraish dialect and I even need Classical dictionary such like Lane Lexicon and Lisan ul Arab to undersand it.
But this Classical still contains similiarity with the modern Arabic, mostly.But unfortunately, the problem is Quranic phrases which is not easy to decipher as well as in hadith.
Example Said, " Man of Faith sphaghheti eat 9 a'clock when sleep the wife the last"
Remember it's just an example, it has many more in Quran Arabic text.
And Quranic verses rarely showing the name of Subject, mostly use pronoun like hu,him, she , he, which you always wondering with who the God talking to? who said this sentence? -
Peace,
But we cannot falsify the information because WE have problems to decipher the passages.
God bless you
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After get more deeper discussion about tafseer Quran, play Arabic words with Indonesian and Malaysian Quranites, it seems I start to questioning Quran itself.Many fallacies, allegorical phrases which I see as a nonsense and it's imposibble if this is God's words.
Good, never stop questioning, a revelation starts with a question.
God's revelation can be delivered through any communication channel and it didn't stop 1300 years ago..Currently I'm in agnostic state like Yuliana and I will post some refutation against Quran in this forum.
Waiting for your refutation..
If members in here capable against all my refutation and give proper answers, I will back to so called Islam maybe.
What do you mean by joining and leaving Islam?
And why you feel the need to do as such?Leave the sectarian mindset behind, that's my recommendation to you.
Learn from everything and everyone, God's sign is spread all over the universe.Salam / Peace
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Peace all
But we cannot falsify the information because WE have problems to decipher the passages.
If we couldn't dechiper the passages, how we know that information is true or false.
I will create a thread bout this as long as my refutation solved.
Good, never stop questioning, a revelation starts with a question.
God's revelation can be delivered through any communication channel and it didn't stop 1300 years ago..True
The problem now is who is God-god, what kind of god which I want to worship.What do you mean by joining and leaving Islam?
Just misswrote, I should wrote "leaving Quran" not "leaving Islam".
What kind of mine god in the future I will submit/ to Him/Her/Them -
Peace all
If we couldn't dechiper the passages, how we know that information is true or false.
I will create a thread bout this as long as my refutation solved.
True
The problem now is who is God-god, what kind of god which I want to worship.Just misswrote, I should wrote "leaving Quran" not "leaving Islam".
What kind of mine god in the future I will submit/ to Him/Her/ThemThe God who understand you better than yourselves.
The God whose will/policy/decision/law shall happened in the future as it is in the past.
(Take a glimpse of every event that has happened in your life, all of it is God's will)
The God who continue to give guidance to you and the rest of human being and He/It did not stop 1300 years ago in Arabia. -
Salaam,
Do tell, what will you gain from posting refutations against the Qur'aan? You gain nothing but making yourself feel good about yourself after you leave Islam. You're just trying to validate your own belief, that's all.
You want to stop believing in the Qur'aan? It does not bother me. Just don't go on a "jihad" mode trying to prove people wrong, because it looks like you're just insecure with your current state of belief.
I find it funny because you claim to find the Qur'aanic language to be incomprehensible. Well, guess what? Because you have not learnt the Classical Arabic language and you try to translate it straight to your own language. I have started learning Classical Arabic, and the Qur'aanic phrases is not inconsistent like you claim it is. I can understand some just fine,
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Met malam BornAgain
Do tell, what will you gain from posting refutations against the Qur'aan?
I'm in study sis, study.Gain?? I want some answer to determine my movements afterward.
I dont want to debate, I just want some answers.This is free-minds right?? people from many religious background and perceptions can join this forum.Look some members refute my methodology in my refutation thread.they forget if this is not Quranist forum anymore but free-minds.This is so why my thread turned to be off topic.
I find it funny because you claim to find the Qur'aanic language to be incomprehensible. Well, guess what? Because you have not learnt the Classical Arabic language and you try to translate it straight to your own language. I have started learning Classical Arabic, and the Qur'aanic phrases is not inconsistent like you claim it is. I can understand some just fine,
I'm also using dictionaries like Lane Lexicon and lisan ul Arab.
Translate to mine language in straight way?? C'mon you don't know me.Not inconsistent but difficult to dechiper.
Classical Arab and modern still have same meaning mostly, just different in structure.Classical Arabic fussha (pattern) is more simple rather than modern Arab dialects.
To study many languages, we need three points -Vocabularies
-Pattern and formulas
-Local dialects and pronouncations.We cannot speak to the natives of the langauge if we just rely on vocabularies-dictionaries.
Jika ente ingin berdiskusi dengan saya lebih jauh pake bahasa, silahkan lewat PM, tenang aja ane gak tanya2 masalah pribadi/personal.
Ane juga gak bisa trus-trusan pake inggris, pusing di kepala ;D