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  4. Polygamy refutation (verse 4:3)

Polygamy refutation (verse 4:3)

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  • 3 Offline
    3 Offline
    357
    wrote on last edited by
    #19

    would polygomy be good in this case or bad?

    http//historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6271/

    i mean , if women cant find single men? or should they try and steal other womens husbands?

    confused

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    • D Offline
      D Offline
      diamantinehoneybunch
      wrote on last edited by
      #20

      would polygomy be good in this case or bad?

      http//historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6271/

      confused

      I have known long that you are one of those polygamy (polygyny) supporters.
      You even said you are married to 3 Sunni gals, remember?

      Polygamy can be good in a land where the ratio of women to men, let say, 601

      What about MEN who can't find single women? Should they steal others' wives? That argument is flawed to defend polygamy.

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      • U Offline
        U Offline
        unknownuser
        wrote on last edited by
        #21

        According to statistics, female population increased more than men.
        Proof Googling

        Logically if all men practice monogamy, it will be hard for some woman.

        Even Quran support polygamy, the woman also have right to refuse offer for becaming second wive

        Salaam

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        • M Offline
          M Offline
          Man_of_Faith
          wrote on last edited by
          #22

          According to statistics, female population increased more than men.
          Proof Googling

          Logically if all men practice monogamy, it will be hard for some woman.

          Even Quran support polygamy, the woman also have right to refuse offer for becaming second wive

          Salaam

          Another sign how illogical it is to claim that God would support polygamy. Under utopian conditions there is like one woman for each man and it would be unfair to the other men if some man had several wives. And also everything comes in pairs...

          God bless you

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          • U Offline
            U Offline
            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #23

            Another sign how illogical it is to claim that God would support polygamy. Under utopian conditions there is like one woman for each man and it would be unfair to the other men if some man had several wives. And also everything comes in pairs...
            God bless you

            I said "Even Quran" not "God support".

            Peace be with you

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            • M Offline
              M Offline
              Man_of_Faith
              wrote on last edited by
              #24

              Peace,

              But I think beyond Qur'an, dear mister.

              God bless you

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              • N Offline
                N Offline
                noshirk
                wrote on last edited by
                #25

                salaam
                it is very strange how discussion is turning.

                My first post was on interpretation of words in 43

                no one want to defend the theory that 43 is speaking about polygamy ?

                Peace

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                • D Offline
                  D Offline
                  diamantinehoneybunch
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #26

                  salaam
                  it is very strange how discussion is turning.

                  My first post was on interpretation of words in 43

                  no one want to defend the theory that 43 is speaking about polygamy ?

                  Peace

                  Contact the owner of zainabslounge.blogspot.com (Zainab) and muslimvilla active users (Zainab and Co) to invite them. elektro

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                  • D Offline
                    D Offline
                    diamantinehoneybunch
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #27

                    According to statistics, female population increased more than men.
                    Proof Googling

                    Logically if all men practice monogamy, it will be hard for some woman.

                    Even Quran support polygamy, the woman also have right to refuse offer for becaming second wive

                    Salaam

                    I think you looked at the result with haste. To observe the ratio we should look by countries, factors and age groups. At childbirth, the ratio of male to female is always high (i.e. 1.5) but often lower when it comes to the elderly (i.e. 0.89).

                    Interestingly, In so called Muslim countries where most of these countries legalize polygyny, ratio of men to women is always high.

                    Globally, ratio of male to female is 11 or 1.11.

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                    • 3 Offline
                      3 Offline
                      357
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #28

                      salaam
                      it is very strange how discussion is turning.

                      My first post was on interpretation of words in 43

                      no one want to defend the theory that 43 is speaking about polygamy ?

                      Peace

                      Example for you, i am sure you are sensible enough to find loads more, such tragedies can be prevented - people don't marry poor orphaned girls, and they end up in very wrong places.......

                      http//www.siasat.com/english/news/even-after-15-years-hard-work-five-orphan-girls-remained-unmarried

                      hmm

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                      • H Offline
                        H Offline
                        huruf
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #29

                        It is true, the ratio of male to female populations in Egypt, Pakistan, other muslim countries is higher than in many other countries. Where the birth rate is high tht is bound to happen because mor emales are born than females, and where the older genertions are in greater proportion in the populations women tend to outnumber men, because men die more and earlier. So the one point where women would usually would outnumber men would be at old age. So, my advie to young males who want to marry and do not find a person of their age, turn your eyes to the old women. Of those you may get more than one...

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                        • D Offline
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                          DrGm
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #30

                          peace,

                          my view at this point of time

                          43 - if you fear you cannot deal justly to orphans, women - marry them in two or three or four. but, if you fear not being just, one woman or adequately suitable for your good - this is the easier way for you, for not doing injustice.

                          1. if 'you' - whoever come across an orphan(s) in their life, then this verse guides them. if you have nothing regarding orphans in your life, you do not search anything from this ayat, this will not guide you as there is no purpose or need out of it for you. without your need if you search, you will get guided only by satan.

                          2. if you 'fear' - it means you're not in a position to judge what is right or wrong or you are not clear what to do? then, as per
                            1736 - and do not follow or continue, what is not clear to you;

                          3. 'you cannot deal justly' - if you cannot deal them justly, better leave the orphans to their will or Allah's, till you get clear about what to do to set right their needs.

                          4. 'orphans' 2220 - ...its very good to set right their needs; if you live among them then they are your brothers/sisters; - you cannot marry your brothers/sisters
                            .
                            .
                            43 - - this is the easier way for you, for not doing injustice.

                          peace.

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                          • D Offline
                            D Offline
                            diamantinehoneybunch
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #31

                            It is true, the ratio of male to female populations in Egypt, Pakistan, other muslim countries is higher than in many other countries. Where the birth rate is high tht is bound to happen because mor emales are born than females, and where the older genertions are in greater proportion in the populations women tend to outnumber men, because men die more and earlier. So the one point where women would usually would outnumber men would be at old age. So, my advie to young males who want to marry and do not find a person of their age, turn your eyes to the old women. Of those you may get more than one...

                            Moreover, In some countries, the group of people which the ratio of men to women is low is the elderly. Why don't the polygamists marry old women instead of taking young virgins as their new wives? ) hmm hmm hmm hmm
                            ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

                            rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl

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                            • R Offline
                              R Offline
                              Released
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #32

                              Peace.

                              I no longer think 4.3 has anything to do with polygamy. However, polygamy is not prohibited either. Remember that verse about not marrying two sisters? People have to decide what's going to work for them, and hopefully they're able to finance the entire thing.

                              If a man really wanted polygamy, then why not look to older woman who are single? It's a good idea. However, the men usually want young, virgins. )

                              For those of you who are scared to death in regard to the idea of polygamy, well, then make it known in your marriage contract.

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                              • D Offline
                                D Offline
                                diamantinehoneybunch
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #33

                                Peace.

                                I no longer think 4.3 has anything to do with polygamy. However, polygamy is not prohibited either. Remember that verse about not marrying two sisters? People have to decide what's going to work for them, and hopefully they're able to finance the entire thing.

                                If a man really wanted polygamy, then why not look to older woman who are single? It's a good idea. However, the men usually want young, virgins. )

                                For those of you who are scared to death in regard to the idea of polygamy, well, then make it known in your marriage contract.

                                And this verse 334 God did not make any man with two hearts in his body. Nor did He make your wives whom you make estranged to be your mothers. Nor did He make your adopted children to be your sons. Such is what you claim with your mouths, but God speaks the truth, and He guides to the path.

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                                • R Offline
                                  R Offline
                                  Released
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #34

                                  Peace.

                                  That's true. However, what do we do with this?

                                  423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

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                                  • H Offline
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                                    huruf
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #35

                                    What I do not know with this "grouping" two sisters, is whether it means at the same time. It may mean one after the other, like if you become a widow of one and then marry the other. I do not see either in this aya a special authorisation of poligamy.

                                    For me what I see is that the Qur'an does not prohibit absolutely neither male nor female poligamy, but it sets as a rule the monogamous marriage. Does not prohibit the exceptions, thus allowing for other measures where needed, like the grave imbalance in the proportions of each sex.

                                    Also in that aya, the context may be one of transition from widespread poligamy to monogamy as the rule. And there is of course the aya where believers are told to marry the single. So marry the single, but if there are no singles and one must share in a consort, then that not two sistiers (or brothers) are co-consorts. That would be in the case where demographical conditions would make it advisable to allow poligamy for a time till the exceptional situation is overcome. Marry the single is a positive instruction. Whereas a "do not marry this or that" is negative one and does not necessarily mean that everything not mentioned in the "do not do" you should do or can do. You must set that in the context of all the other injonctions, foremost "marry the single".

                                    If marriage is a common project, the "marry the single" is an obvious need. You cannot sell you orchard to twenty people independent of each other.

                                    Salaam

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                                    • H Offline
                                      H Offline
                                      huruf
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #36

                                      Peace,

                                      Best way to follow God and the Message is to use your best judgement. If you consider polygamy to be immoral then God probably does not like it either.

                                      One of the better explanations to me about the prophet's wives is that the community was told not to break up existing marriages. If the prophet had several wives before he became "more righteous" then it is likely that God gave him some exemption.

                                      The common translations of 3350 seem fishy; it does not seem like an accurate translation even from those who are not bound to the sects. The verse sounds weird in my opinion when I read it using several translations. There has to be some righteous explanation to this verse. 3350 with traditional interpretation means that the prophet could marry an infinite number of wives. It does not sound sane. However, it does not rumble my Faith in Qur'an as God's Message and I know lots is misunderstood due to ignorance and millennia long distortion of the Arabic passages.

                                      God bless you

                                      Salaam, Man of Faith,

                                      I think that the very fact that is stated that this is only, exclusively for the Prophet and not for the believers in general makes it evident that what we have here is a circumstance-bound provision.

                                      If, like I said en a prvious post, marriages of the Prophet were alliance marriages, or marriages contracted for the sake of the society and not for the sake of the contractors, what I get our of this aya is that those marriages-alliances continue to hold. I do not think it is authorizing anything for the future, since, in fact, in another aya, the prophet is prohibited from marrying any further wives or from exchanging them. So it is clearly an injunction upholding what is done, and in thsi sense, you are right MofF that it is to keep intact social ties.

                                      So those marriages are not for the sake of priviledging the Prophet but for the sake of holding together the social stability of the community, the peace. So no privilidge for the Prophet but rather a duty, for him and his wives, who, we are repeatedly told, are not like any other women, and hterefore were given the choice to continue as wives of the Prophet or to get out of the bond.

                                      Salaam

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                                        noshirk
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #37

                                        Peace.

                                        That's true. However, what do we do with this?

                                        423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

                                        Salaam sister
                                        I agree with huruf. It means probably one after the other.
                                        the same time understanding clearly not apply, for example, for the "wives of your sons that are from your seed"

                                        420 And if you wish to replace one wife with another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Will you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?

                                        please note how this verse is speaking about replacing and not adding. It is only 3 verses before 4-23.

                                        if we understand the verse 4-23 as an interdiction at the same time, then we have have to admit that quran oblige you to divorce the first sister before you marry the second.
                                        We can also understand that we have to divorce a mother (so it is no more counted as wife) if you want to marry his daugher.
                                        Please note however that nisaa (your women) is not same meaning as Azwaj (your wifes). Nisaa in 4-23 can also be applied to women living in your home (servants).

                                        so if we read 4-23 as a kind of continuation of 4-20, then it speaks about totally forbidden "first" marriages and "replacing".

                                        Peace

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                                        • R Offline
                                          R Offline
                                          Released
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #38

                                          Peace.

                                          Makes sense, I agree with all of you. Perhaps, Free Minds should modify their prior stance on polygamy, or submit a new article??

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