Polygamy refutation (verse 4:3)
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It is true, the ratio of male to female populations in Egypt, Pakistan, other muslim countries is higher than in many other countries. Where the birth rate is high tht is bound to happen because mor emales are born than females, and where the older genertions are in greater proportion in the populations women tend to outnumber men, because men die more and earlier. So the one point where women would usually would outnumber men would be at old age. So, my advie to young males who want to marry and do not find a person of their age, turn your eyes to the old women. Of those you may get more than one...
Moreover, In some countries, the group of people which the ratio of men to women is low is the elderly. Why don't the polygamists marry old women instead of taking young virgins as their new wives? ) hmm hmm hmm hmm
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Peace.
I no longer think 4.3 has anything to do with polygamy. However, polygamy is not prohibited either. Remember that verse about not marrying two sisters? People have to decide what's going to work for them, and hopefully they're able to finance the entire thing.
If a man really wanted polygamy, then why not look to older woman who are single? It's a good idea. However, the men usually want young, virgins. )
For those of you who are scared to death in regard to the idea of polygamy, well, then make it known in your marriage contract.
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Peace.
I no longer think 4.3 has anything to do with polygamy. However, polygamy is not prohibited either. Remember that verse about not marrying two sisters? People have to decide what's going to work for them, and hopefully they're able to finance the entire thing.
If a man really wanted polygamy, then why not look to older woman who are single? It's a good idea. However, the men usually want young, virgins. )
For those of you who are scared to death in regard to the idea of polygamy, well, then make it known in your marriage contract.
And this verse 334 God did not make any man with two hearts in his body. Nor did He make your wives whom you make estranged to be your mothers. Nor did He make your adopted children to be your sons. Such is what you claim with your mouths, but God speaks the truth, and He guides to the path.
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Peace.
That's true. However, what do we do with this?
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
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What I do not know with this "grouping" two sisters, is whether it means at the same time. It may mean one after the other, like if you become a widow of one and then marry the other. I do not see either in this aya a special authorisation of poligamy.
For me what I see is that the Qur'an does not prohibit absolutely neither male nor female poligamy, but it sets as a rule the monogamous marriage. Does not prohibit the exceptions, thus allowing for other measures where needed, like the grave imbalance in the proportions of each sex.
Also in that aya, the context may be one of transition from widespread poligamy to monogamy as the rule. And there is of course the aya where believers are told to marry the single. So marry the single, but if there are no singles and one must share in a consort, then that not two sistiers (or brothers) are co-consorts. That would be in the case where demographical conditions would make it advisable to allow poligamy for a time till the exceptional situation is overcome. Marry the single is a positive instruction. Whereas a "do not marry this or that" is negative one and does not necessarily mean that everything not mentioned in the "do not do" you should do or can do. You must set that in the context of all the other injonctions, foremost "marry the single".
If marriage is a common project, the "marry the single" is an obvious need. You cannot sell you orchard to twenty people independent of each other.
Salaam
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Peace,
Best way to follow God and the Message is to use your best judgement. If you consider polygamy to be immoral then God probably does not like it either.
One of the better explanations to me about the prophet's wives is that the community was told not to break up existing marriages. If the prophet had several wives before he became "more righteous" then it is likely that God gave him some exemption.
The common translations of 3350 seem fishy; it does not seem like an accurate translation even from those who are not bound to the sects. The verse sounds weird in my opinion when I read it using several translations. There has to be some righteous explanation to this verse. 3350 with traditional interpretation means that the prophet could marry an infinite number of wives. It does not sound sane. However, it does not rumble my Faith in Qur'an as God's Message and I know lots is misunderstood due to ignorance and millennia long distortion of the Arabic passages.
God bless you
Salaam, Man of Faith,
I think that the very fact that is stated that this is only, exclusively for the Prophet and not for the believers in general makes it evident that what we have here is a circumstance-bound provision.
If, like I said en a prvious post, marriages of the Prophet were alliance marriages, or marriages contracted for the sake of the society and not for the sake of the contractors, what I get our of this aya is that those marriages-alliances continue to hold. I do not think it is authorizing anything for the future, since, in fact, in another aya, the prophet is prohibited from marrying any further wives or from exchanging them. So it is clearly an injunction upholding what is done, and in thsi sense, you are right MofF that it is to keep intact social ties.
So those marriages are not for the sake of priviledging the Prophet but for the sake of holding together the social stability of the community, the peace. So no privilidge for the Prophet but rather a duty, for him and his wives, who, we are repeatedly told, are not like any other women, and hterefore were given the choice to continue as wives of the Prophet or to get out of the bond.
Salaam
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Peace.
That's true. However, what do we do with this?
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Salaam sister
I agree with huruf. It means probably one after the other.
the same time understanding clearly not apply, for example, for the "wives of your sons that are from your seed"420 And if you wish to replace one wife with another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Will you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?
please note how this verse is speaking about replacing and not adding. It is only 3 verses before 4-23.
if we understand the verse 4-23 as an interdiction at the same time, then we have have to admit that quran oblige you to divorce the first sister before you marry the second.
We can also understand that we have to divorce a mother (so it is no more counted as wife) if you want to marry his daugher.
Please note however that nisaa (your women) is not same meaning as Azwaj (your wifes). Nisaa in 4-23 can also be applied to women living in your home (servants).so if we read 4-23 as a kind of continuation of 4-20, then it speaks about totally forbidden "first" marriages and "replacing".
Peace
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Peace.
New ideas that I've come across so far
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4.3 definitely has nothing to do with polygamy
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4.20 and 4.23 are in regard to replacing one wife for another, or one after another
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3350 is exclusive to Muhammed
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2432 refers to marrying single people---the norm
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With all that having been said, there is no prohibition on polyandry or polygyny. We all know what prohibitive verses look like, and no such exist. People must conform to their circumstances.
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- The verse 43 is about polygamy and it is permitted.
"And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. "
You can hardly deny that this is about polygamy.
- Verse 3350 is not exclusive to the Prophet Muhammad - that is simply based on a mistaken reading.
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salaam
it is very strange how discussion is turning.My first post was on interpretation of words in 43
no one want to defend the theory that 43 is speaking about polygamy ?
Peace
The verse is about polygamy - for over 1000 years that is a how it has been understood - by Arabic experts and non-experts alike.
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- The verse 43 is about polygamy and it is permitted.
"And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. "
You can hardly deny that this is about polygamy.
- Verse 3350 is not exclusive to the Prophet Muhammad - that is simply based on a mistaken reading.
Mistaken reading by your sexual desire to have sex with four concubines in "marriage"
It is to Mohammed only unless you are blind.
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Mistaken reading by your sexual desire to have sex with four concubines in "marriage"
It is to Mohammed only unless you are blind.
Try not to get abusive and answer on point
Mistaken reading by your sexual desire to have sex with four concubines in "marriage"
This comment in no way refutes what I have said . . . 43 quite clear permits a man to marry up to 4 wives. Making such comments just hihlights that do not have response to counter this. Hence - the pitiful personal remark.
Quran 3350
O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you
and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to marry her, only for you, excluding the believers.
We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.Now - the longing passage I have highlighted ONLY that is for the Prophet Muhammad alone.
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This was brought up a long time ago, that the verse literally translates to "in twos, threes, and fours". Your "up to four" theory sinks to the bottom of the sea. You wouldn't be marrying women in twos, threes, and fours unless you are thinking of starting a harem? Quite obviously, this verse is in regard to financing marriages.
We know it is your desire to change what has clearly been written, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You can propagate polygyny all you want, but the truth is, more and more women are waking up to what's really written in the Quran. The truth hurts.
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@ Released - I am replying once to the somewhat bizarre posts. . .
What are the numbers in Arabic? 1, 2, 3, and 4???
Do they match up with 4.3?
Beyond this - I do not get what you are asking . . .
"in twos, threes, and fours". Your "up to four" theory sinks to the bottom of the sea.
How? On the contrary - you have posted nothing that contradicts - the Sunni position and only agreed with it when talking about the verse and then 360 jump. The final number mentioned is four. . . the verse stops there.
You wouldn't be marrying women in twos, threes, and fours unless you are thinking of starting a harem? Quite obviously, this verse is in regard to financing marriages.
How so?
We know it is your desire to change what has clearly been written, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You can propagate polygyny all you want, but the truth is, more and more women are waking up to what's really written in the Quran. The truth hurts.
Once again . . . the strange desire to get "personal" . . . without bothering to answer anything. Why should it be my desire to change what has been written? Countless past and present experts of Arabic in droves have understood this to be what is according to the Sunni position. So why is it only my personal desire to change anything?
And you do not even know . . . what it is that I am fiddling with!
Our friend is a Sunni. Surprise Surprise. laugh
And how is that laughing matter? Or by saying this . . . does this somehow excuse you from answering?
= = =
You people invent strange meanings . . . and then just become abusive . . . this has happened repeatedly! When you are no longer able to answer.
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The verse is about polygamy - for over 1000 years that is a how it has been understood - by Arabic experts and non-experts alike.
Salaam the chimp
1-Follow quran
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any tutors. Little do you remember!2-don't follow leaders
3367 And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.?3-don't follow priests and monks
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.4-don't follow ancestors
3121 And if they are told ?Follow that which God has sent down.? They say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.? What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?i would be happy to discuss arguments from quran
your arguments are, until know, "kafir arguments".
it is forbidden to me, by my deen, to discuss of deen of God, with people who take other arbabs and make reference to other booksNow, can you respond to these without reference to other arbabs and other books
1- What is nikah for you ? Sexual act ?
2 -With how many "slaves" can you make "nikah" in your deen ? Are they counted in the "four" ? are they still slaves after nikah or did they obtain "wife " status ?
3- Why in 4-4; word sadaqa (charity) is used. When Allah speaks about dowry, he use generally ajr (salary) and it is an obligation. Did you consider what a man gives to his wife as sadaqa ?let's stop here for the moment
Peace -
Salaam the chimp
1-Follow quran
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any tutors. Little do you remember!2-don't follow leaders
3367 And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.?3-don't follow priests and monks
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.4-don't follow ancestors
3121 And if they are told ?Follow that which God has sent down.? They say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.? What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?i would be happy to discuss arguments from quran
your arguments are, until know, "kafir arguments".
it is forbidden to me, by my deen, to discuss of deen of God, with people who take other arbabs and make reference to other booksNow, can you respond to these without reference to other arbabs and other books
1- What is nikah for you ? Sexual act ?
2 -With how many "slaves" can you make "nikah" in your deen ? Are they counted in the "four" ? are they still slaves after nikah or did they obtain "wife " status ?
3- Why in 4-4; word sadaqa (charity) is used. When Allah speaks about dowry, he use generally ajr (salary) and it is an obligation. Did you consider what a man gives to his wife as sadaqa ?let's stop here for the moment
PeaceYou people are good at nothing more than petty insults. Look at you - you build up your own nonsense and come to abuse . . .
See what you said
your arguments are, until know, "kafir arguments".
In other words . . .this is a get out close by calling everyone "kafir"
No, no, no.
If to you everyone s Kafir - then you go an enjoy your own self and be a believer . . . and curse the god who until now has mislead humanity for 1500 years and is now leading YOU to straight path.
It is simple logic . . . you do not know a single letter of Quran without reliance on "others" . . .
What does these letters mean?
Nothing . . . they are nonsense aren't they?
it is forbidden to me, by my deen, to discuss of deen of God, with people who take other arbabs and make reference to other books
Is it? Then why are you discussing it?
Then it is perfectly safe to say . . . Islam is NOT your "deen" - whatever "deen" is . . .
You are completely illogical and do not know WHAT you are saying.
Other than calling people "Kaffir".