Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

Man_of_Faith

Before I continue

From here I will change all instances of 'Qur'an' into the English word 'book' while when 'Kitab' occurs I will use something more appropriate from what you have seen from the previous post. al-Qur'an is 'The Book'!

Kitab = Message/Knowledge/Information

I have not yet decided on the most perfect English word to use for kitab, but I use all three of my alternatives at the moment, i.e. Message/Knowledge/Information. If I choose Knowledge then that suits my 'Knowledge and Wisdom' terminology. Who knows, it was maybe the will of God to have my start on this thread. Anyway, I choose Message as it seems to make the reading more fluent. But this time I will print the verse twice with the Monotheist translation and below it my change.

22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
22 That is the Message in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?
244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Message? Do you not comprehend?

There is no divine revelation in book-form for these people to read. It means that they remind them of the Message verbally, and as you can see here do not live by it themselves. You see, kitab does not translate very well into book on a contextual basis.

253 And We gave Moses the Book and the Criterion, perhaps you would be guided.
253 And We gave Moses the Message and the Criterion, perhaps you would be guided.

Here is a good example to show the power of this new Knowledge. The Criterion (&#1614 is the tablets of stone that Moses received on the mountain and this was what Moses received in terms of a (direct) revelation and there is no book in the case of him. The tales you find in the Bible are written based on the legend of him and probably while the tablets of stone were still to be found (Ark of the Covenant). The Message is equal to Knowledge of God's Realm; the Realm information I have been talking about previously in this thread. And the Message is very, very simple as we know. (1) Believe and (2) do good.

278 And among them are Gentiles who do not know the Book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
278 And among them are Gentiles who do not know the Message except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.

The translation of this verse is a bit so-so. Despite my inferior Arabic knowledge I see that it means something else based on context and the new-found kitab realization.

279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say ?This is from God,? so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.
279 So woe to those who write the Message with their hands then say ?This is from God,? so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

285 But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.
285 But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe in part of the Message and disbelieve in part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.

287 And We gave Moses the Book, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!
287 And We gave Moses the Message, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!

No no no, Moses never got any "book", he received some statutes in stone and a Message. Kitab clearly refers to Message and not book. Good example to clarify the misconception. Message weighs heavily on Knowledge, so you know.

289 And when a Book came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected; so when what they knew came to them, they rejected it! The curse of God be upon the rejecters.
289 And when a Message came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected; so when what they knew came to them, they rejected it! The curse of God be upon the rejecters.

How many God darn books do you think God sent down? No, they received Messages and they denied 'em all, most of them at least.

2101 And when a messenger came to them from God, authenticating what was with them, a group of those who had already received the Book placed the Book of God behind their backs as if they did not know.
2101 And when a messenger came to them from God, authenticating what was with them, a group of those who had already received the Message placed the Message of God behind their backs as if they did not know.

2105 Neither do those who have rejected from among the people of the Book, nor from among the polytheists, wish that any good comes down to you from your Lord. But God chooses with His mercy whom He wishes; and from God is the greatest grace.
2105 Neither do those who have rejected from among the followers of the Message, nor from among the polytheists, wish that any good comes down to you from your Lord. But God chooses with His mercy whom He wishes; and from God is the greatest grace.

2109 Many of the people of the Book have wished that they could return you to being rejecters after your believing, out of envy from their souls after the truth was made clear to them. You shall forgive them and overlook until God brings His will. God is capable of all things.
2109 Many of the followers of the Message have wished that they could return you to being rejecters after your believing, out of envy from their souls after the truth was made clear to them. You shall forgive them and overlook until God brings His will. God is capable of all things.

2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the Message! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

One of those verses in 'The Book' which ought to prove that kitab is Message.

2121 Those to whom We gave the Book, they recite it as it truthfully deserves to be recited; they believe in it. As for those who disbelieve in it, they are the losers.
2121 Those to whom We gave the Message, they recite it as it truthfully deserves to be recited; they believe in it. As for those who disbelieve in it, they are the losers.

2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Book and the Wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Knowledge and the Wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

Here is the killer. This verse busts the myth of kitab as book completely. I even translated into Knowledge because it suits the context so beautifully. Abraham did not even possess a book at his time and he could likely not see the future. Kitab IS NOT a physical book

Tired of printing out verses twice

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the heaven; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Message know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2145 And if you come to those who have been given the Message with every sign they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the information that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
2146 Those to whom We have given the Message know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.

2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Knowledge and the Wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.

2159 Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them of the clarities and the guidance, after We Had made it clear for the followers of the Book; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse.

2174 Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Message, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their bellies except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.

2176 This is because God has sent down the Message with the truth; and those who have disputed about the Message are in far opposition.

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who (1) believes in God and (3) the Last Day, and the angels, and the Message, and the prophets, and (2) who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of adversity and hardship and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.

2178 O you who believe, equivalence has become Knowledge for you in the case of those who are slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with kindness and goodness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.

2180 It has become Knowledge for you that if death should come to any of you, that it is best if he leaves a will for his family and relatives out of goodness; this is a truth for the righteous.

Note Apologize, experimental translation attempts using the new-found discovery about kitab. That was the most useful translation I could achieve. I know I am talking about the root . But simply seeing that it is told a per Message it is important to see this contrast. It does not necessarily change the meaning even if the translation is not 100% accurate.

2183 O you who believe, fasting has become Knowledge for you as it was Knowledge for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Book was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the Guidance and the Criterion. Whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

This verse is not containing kitab, but there was a brief observation I made in this verse while reading and that was the mysterious al-furqan as was given to Moses. This is one of those confusing and disputed verses whether there is a fasting or not. The book according to my interpretation elaborates on the al-furqan given to Moses. I have doubts that the Message has changed very much from the past and it seems extreme with 30 days of fasting per year and the other people who followed the Message in the past do not seem to have fasted for 30 days in a row.

2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the Knowledge with the Truth so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path.

2231 And if you have divorced the women, and they have reached their required interim period, then either you remain together equitably, or part ways equitably. And do not reconcile with them so you can harm them out of animosity; whoever does so is doing wrong to his soul; and do not take the revelations of God as mockery. And remember the blessings of God upon you, and what was sent down to you of the Knowledge and the Wisdom, He warns you with it. And be aware of God and know that God is knowledgeable of all things.

2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Messages, and His messengers ?We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers;? and they said ?We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny.?

I will not continue on this as I feel the walk-through here with chapter 2 is enough for busting this myth.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Chapter 9 Message check

94 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. (2) God loves the righteous.
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

This translation in incompatible with the Message as it is pretty dogmatic and zealous as it obviously makes it fine to kill them if they do not perform "the Contact Prayer". It is another instance of the word as-salat being misunderstood if you ask me. However, if you understand the word as-salat as in being mindful of God, respecting His system and azzakat as doing things which purify you then it a whole lot better sense, i.e. righteous actions which are not mischief and vice. Traditional translation makes it fine to kill them as long as they do not start praying. Sadly this is one of the verses in 'the Book' which is abused to propagate "Islam" violently and dogmatically.

910 They do not respect those who are believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors.
911 If they repent, and they keep Mindful, and they contribute towards purification, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

Sorry, it is impossible for me to see these lines as contact praying at all.

913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
914 Fight them; perhaps God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them and grant you victory over them and heal the chests of the believing people.
915 And to remove the anger from their hearts; God pardons whom he pleases. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

It is fighting against oppression in the whole context as we can see, to fight evil in the people and only fight until there is no more oppression. And no unnecessary killing. If those who fight are righteous when they win against them and let them live when they surrender they might see the Light and believe.

917 It was not for the polytheists to maintain the temples of God while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
918 Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he keeps the Communion, and he contributes towards Purification, and is only concerned by God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.
919 Have you made the watering of the pilgrim and the maintenance of the Restricted Temple the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives in the cause of God? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.

It is obvious that these people sought their own monetary gain and gave little in return. And a little like it is today in Mecca, where the Saudi government squeaks out every little coin of the pilgrims and to only earn more money to their wealth and fame. History repeats itself. Communion is sadly associated with Pagan rituals in Christianity, but the word fits our needs in English as according to this dictionary input communion / kmyunyn / noun 2 formal a special relationship with someone or something which makes you feel that you understand them very well
between/with

In the mountains, I feel in communion with nature.

I suppose you go right on spot with this definition from the dictionary concerning salah. I think we, praise to God, went right on spot in the definition of as-salah. Of course it does not conflict with the prescribed regular salat as it is also a definite communion.

924 Say ?If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your wives, and your kin, and money which you have gathered, and a trade which you would be concerned over its decline, and homes which you find pleasing; if these are dearer to you than God and His messenger and striving in His cause, then wait until God brings His decision. And God does not guide the wicked people.?

One of the abused verses to put love on Muhammad while it means loving the cause of God and His Messenger (at that time).

929 Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, nor do they restrict what God and His messenger have restricted, nor do they uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Message; until they pay the reparation, willingly or unwillingly, and they are subdued.

Another abused verse. Even used to take out a constant tax (jizyah) from any non-muslim forever and ever. Its traditional interpretation conflicts and contradicts the verse which tells that there is no compulsion in the system. Why should they pay an unfair tax simply for not believing the way another one does, when it is said that righteous Nazarenes and Jews will go to Heaven.

930 The Jews said ?Ezra is the son of God,? and the Nazarenes said ?The Messiah is the son of God.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

Of course these ones were not the only assigned sons of God when 'the Book' was revealed.

931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.

Obviously this is against the ancient Criterion given to Moses "You shall have no other gods before Me, You shall not make idols. What do the people not do anyway? Both Jews and Christians had the Message at their hands and yet they manage to create sons of God. What ignorance is that not? And now Muhammad is a patron of God too, so the history repeats itself, while they were told to serve One god.

933 He is the One who has sent His messenger with the Guidance and the system of Truth, so that it will expose all other systems, even if the polytheists hate it.

We have patrons of polytheists here who hate the things we write. Is that not a fulfillment of what God has already told? They want us to revert to their ways.

966 Do not apologize, for you have rejected after your belief. If We pardon one group from you, We will punish another group. That is because they were criminals.
967 The hypocrite males and the hypocrite females, they are to each other. They order vice and prohibit good, and they close their hands. They forgot God, so He will forget them; indeed, the hypocrites are the wicked.

It is obvious that they "believed" until the Messenger came around and showed that the loads of conjecture that had in their system was only wrong and that the Message was only consisting of a few tiny parameters, possible to be narrowed down to (1) believe and (2) do good.

970 Did the news not come to them of those before them, the people of Noah and ?Aad and Thamud. And the people of Abraham, and the dwellers of Midyan, and those overthrown. Their messengers came to them with clarity; it was not God who wronged them, but it was themselves that they wronged.

Have I not told you in previous posts what these people came and told to their respective communities? It was very plain simple telling them to be good and believe in the One god.

986 And if a chapter is sent down ?That you shall (1) believe in God and (2) strive with His messenger,? those with wealth and influence ask your leave and they say ?Let us be with those who remain behind.?

9111 God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have the Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Book. And whoever fulfills this pledge with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the great triumph.

9119 O you who believe, be aware of God and be with the truthful.

Joe_Betik

Salam Man of faith,

The meaning of 'qur-an' depends, methinks, on our understanding of the word 'iqra' (Chapter 96), because they share Radicals (Roots). As such, some people view 'qur-an' as 'reading', when they viewed 'iqra' as the imperative 'read.' But since you proposed that 'qur-an' is 'book', what is 'iqra' then?

However, I agree with you that 'kitab' could (personally it should) be 'message', but i do not see the potential meaning could be 'knowledge' or 'information', as I believe Arabic has other terms for these two English words. I believe 'knowledge' is '3ilm' while 'information' is 'ma3loomat' and we frequently come across these Arabic terms in the Qur-an.

Cheers!
mohammed noh

The_Chimp

Salam Man of faith,

The meaning of 'qur-an' depends, methinks, on our understanding of the word 'iqra' (Chapter 96), because they share Radicals (Roots). As such, some people view 'qur-an' as 'reading', when they viewed 'iqra' as the imperative 'read.' But since you proposed that 'qur-an' is 'book', what is 'iqra' then?

However, I agree with you that 'kitab' could (personally it should) be 'message', but i do not see the potential meaning could be 'knowledge' or 'information', as I believe Arabic has other terms for these two English words. I believe 'knowledge' is '3ilm' while 'information' is 'ma3loomat' and we frequently come across these Arabic terms in the Qur-an.

Cheers!
mohammed noh

Problem is he has no expertise or much knowledge of Arabic.

unknownuser

Salaam Joe Betik

The meaning of 'qur-an' depends, methinks, on our understanding of the word 'iqra' (Chapter 96), because they share Radicals (Roots). As such, some people view 'qur-an' as 'reading', when they viewed 'iqra' as the imperative 'read.' But since you proposed that 'qur-an' is 'book', what is 'iqra' then?

However, I agree with you that 'kitab' could (personally it should) be 'message', but i do not see the potential meaning could be 'knowledge' or 'information', as I believe Arabic has other terms for these two English words. I believe 'knowledge' is '3ilm' while 'information' is 'ma3loomat' and we frequently come across these Arabic terms in the Qur-an.

You missunderstood Man of Faith.He never said Quran = message.

He created that arguments, because he against mine intepretation in of Alkitab in 22.
Man of Faith just try to see "Al Kitab" in 22 as message, not "The Book" which it's literal/harafiyah meaning.

Quran = recitation, while iqra is fi'il/verb form of Quran and mean "recite".

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

No, I was not misunderstood, but it was something I have been thinking about for some time. Kitab is not literally book but Message but connotes to source of Knowledge. You see my flows of text and see message fits perfectly whereas it sounds even pathetic in some parts when you use the traditional choices. Also Quran is physically book and it is something you read from. Certainly a book can be in verbal form too but it is still book. It is an Arabic Book -) not Arabic Quran, so I doubt it is a proper noun.

It was not really to meet Earthdom I began this talk but because I was convinced about the misconception now. Verily look at the verses with new Light and you shall see. Forget dictionaries and only think about coherence and comprehension.

The Chimp can go somewhere else and show himself. Put the face down in some Hadith books instead of fooling around here. I do not care if I only knew one word of Arabic. With God's help even a complete unlettered person could learn the whole Message.

God bless you

The_Chimp

Peace,

No, I was not misunderstood, but it was something I have been thinking about for some time. Kitab is not literally book but Message but connotes to source of Knowledge. You see my flows of text and see message fits perfectly whereas it sounds even pathetic in some parts when you use the traditional choices. Also Quran is physically book and it is something you read from. Certainly a book can be in verbal form too but it is still book. It is an Arabic Book -) not Arabic Quran, so I doubt it is a proper noun.

It was not really to meet Earthdom I began this talk but because I was convinced about the misconception now. Verily look at the verses with new Light and you shall see. Forget dictionaries and only think about coherence and comprehension.

The Chimp can go somewhere else and show himself. Put the face down in some Hadith books instead of fooling around here. I do not care if I only knew one word of Arabic. With God's help even a complete unlettered person could learn the whole Message.

God bless you

"Kitab is not literally book but Message"

Reference? Evidence?

Nothing . . . just what you invent.

Also Quran is physically book and it is something you read from. Certainly a book can be in verbal form too but it is still book. It is an Arabic Book -) not Arabic Quran, so I doubt it is a proper noun.

Once more - this is completely incorrect . . . and highlights fundamental lack of understanding what a Proper Noun is . . . also higlights your lack of knowledge in Arabic.

Hence - once more - you resort to making things up . . . you do not know what you are talking about.

Man_of_Faith

Reference is God. Peace out.

jhonsonmustafa

Problem is he has no expertise or much knowledge of Arabic.

Peace,

Please Show mercy to others... It disturbs peace.

The_Chimp

Reference is God. Peace out.

And what does that mean?

What does that mean?

That I am right . . .you invented it from your mind . . . and referenced it to God!

Is he sending you "messages" now? How do you know it ain't Satan?

I mean

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1XaNU20II8

Look! Australian Jesus!

Man_of_Faith

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill. Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message, Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand. The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

You know nothing about God so opt out from this discussion.

Reference is God and then it is the Book,

The_Chimp

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill. Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message, Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand. The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

Peace

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill.

So does the Australian Jesus - in fact his might be stronger . . . the Pope . . . another example. So reading and understanding what the message is . . . that to you is petty? Why?

I thought the WHOLE point is the Quran . . . so why would studying that be petty? I do not get that! I mean that is what it is about.

Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted.

Again - you keep banging on about the message . . . . what message? Who is sending you messages . . .

Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

No we are discussing you. And his tribe were polytheist - yes. But what of it?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message

I do not know what this means.

Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand.

Yes. But somehow I do not think you can recite it by heart.

The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

Again - what does it all mean.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

What extra religious stuff? Learning the Quran is NOT "extra" stuff. It is basic common sense!

I mean how do you live at all . . . is a wonder to me! I did not think one had to make people understand . . . what "learning" is all about!

You know nothing about God so opt out from this discussion.

Reference is God and then it is the Book,

Saying that is no help . . . what god?

Is it the one like Joseph Smith . . .?

Australasian Jesus?

Rashad Khalifah and the number 19?

Elijah Muhammad?

What messages have you been getting?

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I discovered about God on my own and I did not need any Book for that. It is the example of Abraham that I pointed out in the previous post.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

The_Chimp

I discovered about God on my own

I doubt it . . . as it depends - if you grew up in Sunni/Shia Muslim then you would have been indoctrinated. But explain how?

However - whether you believe in God or not is FUNDAMENTAL question . . . and it is BEFORE whether you choose to follow a religion or not. Hence - even those - like me - indoctrinated as kids when adult have the chance to rethink and choose. However - I do not think this is what you are referring to.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

Try not to get like this . . . and I am ASKING you . . . so please explain.

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

But this is just general guff - practically EVERY sane adult knows this . . . in fact irrespective of whether they believe in God or not!

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

Once again . . . you make no sense . . . you are unable to explain yourself . . . and I pose a legitimate question . . .

How is your alleged relationship with god any different than that of the Australian Jesus?

Joe_Betik

Peace,

I discovered about God on my own and I did not need any Book for that. It is the example of Abraham that I pointed out in the previous post.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

Salam Man of Faith,

Please don't be sad. Please calm down, instead. Don't let one person disturb your day, when there are many others who appreciate and welcome what you are doing.

Allow me to quote an earlier post please

...

In fact for some years now I have adopted the opinion that as long as a person refers to God about anything and everything, God will surely guides that person. God will never take that person's faith for granted. Even without that person studying the Q, let alone understands Arabic. So even an illiterate in the North Pole could always ask God, anytime, anywhere, anyhow. God is with us wherever we are.

And the Q that we study was the guide for Muhammad the prophet. It was his guide to becoming into a true servant of God that befits the status of God's 'khalifa' (proxy) in this earthly life. It should be the easier option if we were to study, understand and adhere to the Q. Still we must refer to God for the correct meaning as meant by God. And still we have to empty the cup to rid all types of baggage.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, never ever leave God out of our life equation. Then only will God be the Lord of our comprehension (rabbi al3alameen), the reference, the teacher, the knowledgable, the just, the wise, the compassionate, the understanding, the master at the time of accountability, the supporter, the friend, etc.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605460.msg330680#msg330680

Are you a living proof to my above statement? )

But seriously, guys, when God is the Lord of comprehension in a person's study of the Qur-an, then little knowledge of Arabic might not be any hindrence whatsoever, as the meaning (in the language that person understands) might automatically be revealed upon the person while the person is reading the Arabic text. In other words, while reading the Arabic text, one might just see the meaning (in the language that he/she understands) on the Arabic text itself. And this is also one of the many forms of revelation. I hope this explains.

But, this is just one of the numerous methods that God could employ to make a person fully understand the Qur-an. And we learn about God teaching man in 965 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=5).

In fact, even if a person doesn't know anything about the Qur-an, or even Islam, but the person establishes a correct 'relationship' (salat) with the correct 'God' (Allah), please refer to the hadith on Ibraheem's search for God with logic in Chapter 2, then God will surely provide the person with appropriate guidance.

But why appropriate guidance, you might ask. It depends on what we ask God for.

Any 'ommiy' (one without prior knowledge) could ask questions like "God, who am I? God, where are You? God, am I correct to view this matter like this? God, please guide me to understand this matter correctly." Etc.

But students of the Qur-an like us all here, how many of us ask God for the correct meanings (as meant by God) for certain Arabic words/concepts in the Qur-an, like 'salat' or 'hajj' for example?

In the narratives of past prophets in the Qur-an, we also learn that God's guidance was usually revealed to them on the-need-to-know basis.

So likewise, the same basis is applicable to us too. Meaning, God may or may not reveal everything that we have asked for. Even comprehensions regarding the Chapters or concepts we come across in the Qur-an. Sometimes it is simply a test of patience. Sometimes it is about our level of closeness to God, thus our standing (makam). It might even be due to our carelessness towards past revelations. Or it might be that a revelation might not be appropriate. This is merely my personal comprehensions, but God knows best regarding this matter.

So you see, there is no substitute for 'having God' (apologies for the lack of a better term, and the Malay term is 'bertuhan&#039. Some people may not study, or even heard of, the Qur-an, but they have God in their lives - they are always mindful of God anytime and everytime, anywhere and everywhere. There is every possibility that God may choose to reveal correct guidance to them irrespective of whether they subscribe to the correct or wrong notions about God, or even serve the correct God or the wrong god(s). Past confessions in this forum and elsewhere will attest to the truth of this notion.

Studying the Qur-an does not make a Muslim. Many people study the Qur-an, but they never have God in their lives - they leave God out of the equation, even in their studies of the Qur-an. They thought they could know or understand by themselves as implied in 966-7. (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=6).

So instead of coming closer to God they move further and further away. And instead of becoming peacemakers, they become 'objects of anger' ('almaghdoobi 3alayhim', 17).

So, it is now up to you, Man of Faith, to continue sharing what you have discovered to be the truth to you. I said the truth to you, because sometimes they are really just that, even though I do not rule out any possibility that they could be the truth to us as well.

Please don't ever get distracted by any harsh nor unethical remarks. God be with you, brother!

And as always, this is merely my personal comprehension. It might not necessarily be the truth to anyone here. So be careful with my posts. )

Cheers!
mohammed noh

The_Chimp