3 times Salat (2+1) in Qur'an, 2 page PDF with Color Charts.
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Peace The Chimp
I did not ask for the verses but the names of the. Prayers "Salat as zuher' Salat al as and Salat all maghrib"
These names are not in the Quran and it was invented by your esteemed hadith writers. You are following Bukhai and
Co. and not Quran. There are only two Salat mentioned by name in the Quran and the rest is found in the books of idiot Bukhari.
So what you follow Quran of Allah or nonsense books of Bukhari and co.
"it was invented by your esteemed hadith writers"
No it wasn't. Else evidence? Proof?
The question is about number of prayers . . . and they are 5. I have given the verses for that. Quran mentions 3 by name . . . and gives 2 additional names.
Asr and Magrib are adequate names . . . as they match the times indicated.
Asr is for afternoon
Maghrib the sun going down towards complete darkness.
You are following Bukhai and
Co. and not Quran.
How so? The times for 5 prayers are from Quran . . so how is that following Bukhari and co.
There are only two Salat mentioned by name in the Quran and the rest is found in the books of idiot Bukhari.
And you are wrong . . . there are 3 names mentioned in the Quran attached as adjectives to the word Salat
Fajr - Wusta - Isha and there are 2 additional times mentioned also.
It is quite apparent you haven't bothered to read what I have replied . . . but are so dogmatic that without bothering . . . you are posting false accusations.
Quaint!
Please quit the nonsense . . . and READ!
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So what you follow Quran of Allah or nonsense books of Bukhari and co.
What you follow is . . . ? Nonsense? I have easily given verses where the times of prayers from Quran . . . so your accusation are completely wrong.
And how is it that you are able to read Arabic at all? Who teaches you that? If it wasn't from book of he elders . . .
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the chimp,
The "threat" (as you put it) is for anyone who may be in breach of forum rules. It just so happens that in this case, it is you who I directed my statement to.
So, let us review
You said
This is simply your bias and nothing more. Earlier Muslims did NOT pray 2 prayers - neither that particular document nor Muslims sources state this.
A quote from the article I linked to, opening sentence
Western scholars have already noticed that according to Muslim sources, before the five daily prayers became part of the "pillars" of Islam, the Muslims used to pray only twice a day.The above is clear, thus if your position is to deny the article makes such a claim, or it is false, then please provide evidence/reason as to support your claim. You have provided no evidence whatsoever.
You said
Incorrect. Sunni Muslim story of how Salat came to being is pretty well know. As you state - you have nothing besides your own bias and er . . . "estimates".
The above clearly implies what I said/implied was incorrect, but again you provide no evidence whatsoever to counter what I said.
Here is what Ibn Kathir's tafsir states from HERE
(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon.It is blatantly obvious, Traditional Islamic sources state there were 2 salat daily (or perhaps 3), prior to 5, thus to say otherwise after the above is shown to someone, they must be either lying or intentionally deceiving forum members.
Over to you.
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The "threat" (as you put it) is for anyone who may be in breach of forum rules. It just so happens that in this case, it is you who I directed my statement to.
Yes . . .and why was I singled out for the honour? Given as it clear I am in opposition to you - to the extent I do not see anyone else here? It is a cheap underhand blow . . . and quite nasty.
The above is clear, thus if your position is to deny the article makes such a claim, or it is false, then please provide evidence/reason as to support your claim. You have provided no evidence whatsoever.
Yes . . . read what it says
"Western scholars have already noticed that according to Muslim sources, before the five daily prayers became part of the "pillars" of Islam, the Muslims used to pray only twice a day."
And the next sentence begins
Goldziher states that "before the duty of prayer was extended to five times a day, the Muslims are said to have observed only two canonical times of prayer morning and afternoon . . . 1
So how does this state that the earlier Muslims used 2 pray twice? How is this any different from Sunni narrative? It is we who hold - Salah, Quran, Hajj, Sawm, Adhaan all took time to establish. . . and it is well recorded that Prophet Muhammad used to pray even before he received Prophet-hood and remained somewhat aloof. Your claim was that this is smashing the myth of 5 prayers. . . . how? The 5 prayers were established after the advent of Islam and then everyone prayed five.
Your own source disagrees with the claim you made.
The above clearly implies what I said/implied was incorrect, but again you provide no evidence whatsoever to counter what I said.
Yes - and the original claim is yours . . . with it comes NO EVIDENCE . . . so why should I counter with evidence? How can you ask me to provide evidence . . . when your original claim lacks it? It is your duty to provide evidence for the claims you have made.
It is blatantly obvious, Traditional Islamic sources state there were 2 salat daily (or perhaps 3), prior to 5, thus to say otherwise after the above is shown to someone, they must be either lying or intentionally deceiving forum members.
And this in no way er . . .
Unfortunately for the chimp this article smashes the 5 salat myth, and it's all based on Traditional Islamic sources
No. It does NOT smash the myth of 5 prayers! Else how?
And remember this is the 1st reply back to you
Have you read the article? It does not "smash" the 5 salat myth. . . and is consistent with Muslim version of events.
And what astound me even more is this
(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon.
So - this is version of event from OUR BOOKS . . . which will clearly state that 5 prayers were established and everyone followed that . . . so when you mention this from books and then why try to claim this is unknown? Ibn Kathir is among the most popular Sunni Quran Scholiast there is.
So now explain . . . how is the myth of 5 prayers smashed?
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the chimp,
You said (highlight mine)
And the next sentence begins
Goldziher states that "before the duty of prayer was extended to five times a day, the Muslims are said to have observed only two canonical times of prayer morning and afternoon . . . 1
So how does this state that the earlier Muslims used 2 pray twice?
Assuming you understand what the English word "before" means, then it refers to BEFORE 5, ergo, BEFORE is EARLIER.
You then go on to say
The 5 prayers were established after the advent of Islam and then everyone prayed five.It seems you do not know English. The word "advent" means the arrival/emergence of a thing. Your own Traditional Islamic sources state 5-salat were established after the alleged "isra and miraj" story. Amusingly, your own Traditional Islamic history states there were many Quran revelations prior to chapter 17 (alleged isra and miraj event) yet you claim 5-salat were established after the advent of Islam. I guess Islam didn't exist prior to chapter 17 according to you. ;D
In any case, it seems you are incapable of expressing your view accurately, so let me see if I can help. This is what I think you seem to be saying prior to Quran revelation "muslims" prayed twice daily, then at some point during Quran revelation a 5-salat-daily was established.
Is this what you are trying to say?
You said
So now explain . . . how is the myth of 5 prayers smashed?
See reply 24 on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606027.msg342824#msg342824
It smashes the myth of 5 prayers because it clearly shows it was not always 5, and only was so after the alleged isra and miraj story, found in chapter 17.
As I said, if you had been accurate in your statements, and what they implied, I wouldn't have said anything.
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It seems you do not know English. The word "advent" means the arrival/emergence of a thing. Your own Traditional Islamic sources state 5-salat were established after the alleged "isra and miraj" story. Amusingly, your own Traditional Islamic history states there were many Quran revelations prior to chapter 17 (alleged isra and miraj event) yet you claim 5-salat were established after the advent of Islam. I guess Islam didn't exist prior to chapter 17 according to you.
If you are going to go down this petty road and be abusive and personal like the rest of your brethren . . . then what is the point? Did you make a funny there?
Now
Sunni Islam has always held that Quran and everything else took time to develop - and many facets took even longer. It is well known - Muslim law took several centuries to establish. I have already indicated that.
No - Islam came the day Prophet Muhammad received his 1st message. And at intervals certain things established. Salat - and then call to prayer . . . then came the order of Hajj. Quran took about 23 years . . . so your "funny" in light of this actually quite a silly proposition to make.
Might I suggest I would be more helpful if you stuck to honestly answering RATHER than attempting such feats of comedy.
In any case, it seems you are incapable of expressing your view accurately, so let me see if I can help. This is what I think you seem to be saying prior to Quran revelation "muslims" prayed twice daily, then at some point during Quran revelation a 5-salat-daily was established.
Incorrect - I am perfectly fine in expressing myself. Muslims prayed 2, thrice maybe more. But there was a time when set number of prayers were established. Yes - that is correct.
It smashes the myth of 5 prayers because it clearly shows it was not always 5, and only was so after the alleged isra and miraj story, found in chapter 17.
As I said, if you had been accurate in your statements, and what they implied, I wouldn't have said anything.
Yet - there is no "myth" that there were always 5! Five prayers came when it was established there were 5 prayers. And after that there were 5 prayers! This does not smash any "myths".
Look at you own statement
Unfortunately for the chimp this article smashes the 5 salat myth, and it's all based on Traditional Islamic sources
So based all on Sunni sources . . . it is smashing 5 prayer myth? But it didn't.
Ps - I am not reading pages and pages of past answers or whatnot. If you have anything to add . . . . quote! Else
That article did not smash any 5 prayer myths . . .
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Muslims prayed 2, thrice maybe more. But there was a time when set number of prayers were established. Yes - that is correct.
Thanks for finally being clear and accurate.
Yet - there is no "myth" that there were always 5! Five prayers came when it was established there were 5 prayers. And after that there were 5 prayers!
There is this myth amongst vast majority of Traditional Muslims (I estimate 98+%). Perhaps not amongst learned Muslims. Your original statements did nothing to reveal it was anything else but 5. It's ok, now you have clarified for all to see.
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Thanks for finally being clear and accurate.
I am happy to oblige.
There is this myth amongst vast majority of Traditional Muslims (I estimate 98+%). Perhaps not amongst learned Muslims. Your original statements did nothing to reveal it was anything else but 5. It's ok, now you have clarified for all to see.
What myth? Try reading the above back at yourself? It is ANYTHING but 5. Before 5 Salah being ordained . . . it was something else and that is Sunni version of events . . . this in no way "smashes" myths that you might or might not have. Ordained obligatory prayers have always been 5. End of.
And as for Miraj - you are well acquainted with it . . . it is an even Sunnis celebrate every year . . . hence how are still unaware of how Salah came to be?
You tried it on . . . but it clearly did not work.
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Peace The Chimp
I am not interested in your verses and neither its conjectured interpretations. what's I need from you is the names of the three prayers from the quran which are missing. It means that Allah forgot to mention in the Quran an your fabrication of three missing names proves that Allah!s Quran is incomplete. You are correcting Allah, very good, carry on with your conjectured invention
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Peace The Chimp
I am not interested in your verses and neither its conjectured interpretations. what's I need from you is the names of the three prayers from the quran which are missing. It means that Allah forgot to mention in the Quran an your fabrication of three missing names proves that Allah!s Quran is incomplete. You are correcting Allah, very good, carry on with your conjectured invention
This is deeply ironic . . . when I stick to "Quran only" - guess who blinks first? Yeah. You people do. You are fundamentally dishonest. I have repeatedly exposed that.
It means that Allah forgot to mention in the Quran an your fabrication of three missing names proves that Allah!s Quran is incomplete. You are correcting Allah, very good, carry on with your conjectured invention
This is complete nonsense. Else - Quran "forgot" to mention many things . . .
It is easy to see that you are wrong . . . and since last time - all you have wanted to do is have a go rather than discuss this honestly.
Look about you. . . even your Admin "Wakas" was caught short.
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the chimp,
This is deeply ironic . . . when I stick to "Quran only" - guess who blinks first? Yeah. You people do. You are fundamentally dishonest. I have repeatedly exposed that.
Please provide evidence for this dishonesty.
What hk requests is rather simple - the three salat names other than fajr & isha, as per Quran. You are providing alleged times with no names. Perhaps this is another case wherein you are incapable of expressing your view clearly.
Are you meaning to say the names for all 5 daily salat do not exist in Quran, but 5 times apparently do, and you are using the Traditional non-Quranic names for the other salat? ;D
This is complete nonsense. Else - Quran "forgot" to mention many things . . .
Unfortunately you do not seem to understand basic logic. hk is not saying Quran says X then failing to provide evidence for X. You are.
My preference is to be clear if I say Quran says X then provide evidence for X. Your method seems different.
Look about you. . . even your Admin "Wakas" was caught short.
You mean the time where you ended up saying (finally) what I said all along? Or the time when your words implied Islam did not exist prior to chapter 17? ;D
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Salaam all
In this circumstances I agree with the Chimp, but I don't follow his teaching (Sunni) I just refute term "Quran Only".
First I believe most of Quranites claim if Assalat is ritual with rukuk and sujud.How they know this??
They now this because most of Quranites are ex-traditionalist (Sunni-Shia etc) and it already stuck in their mind if Assalat is raki'-sujud ritual even they follow Quran Only right now.
If we read Quran carefully, Quran never said Assalat is ruku-sujud ritual and salat and raki'-sujud always written separately.Salla simply means pray not physical pray.
I also believe if Quran need to be understand with another narrations like Tanakh, Ahadith etc, despite in Quran written must follow Quran Only (7750).
How we know Sabbath, Furqaan, 3ajuuzan (old woman) in 26171 by using Quran-Only?? It's nearly inmpossible things.Peace
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Salaam all
In this circumstances I agree with the Chimp, but I don't follow his teaching (Sunni) I just refute term "Quran Only".
First I believe most of Quranites claim if Assalat is ritual with rukuk and sujud.How they know this??
They now this because most of Quranites are ex-traditionalist (Sunni-Shia etc) and it already stuck in their mind if Assalat is raki'-sujud ritual even they follow Quran Only right now.
If we read Quran carefully, Quran never said Assalat is ruku-sujud ritual and salat and raki'-sujud always written separately.Salla simply means pray not physical pray.
I also believe if Quran need to be understand with another narrations like Tanakh, Ahadith etc, despite in Quran written must follow Quran Only (7750).
How we know Sabbath, Furqaan, 3ajuuzan (old woman) in 26171 by using Quran-Only?? It's nearly inmpossible things.Peace
Salah basically means like Communion or similar. At least that is the simplest possible explanation for the word and the possibility to use this term in the context so it always makes sense. But I must agree that the word seems to connote many different things in the same word much like Islam and Muslim. I personally found Mindful/mindfulness within the same boundaries, it is like a data uplink to God.
Since salat involves voice communication I can only anticipate that it means that one ought to speak to God as if God is there and have a kind of mono/dia-logue.
Sorry I know the topic of this thread is whether it is three salat or not per day and not what salat is, I was provoked by the previous poster(s). As I personally understands it there is a prayer at dawn/morning and one in the other end of the day and then one at nightfall with included nightly meditation and probably a deeper Communion. If someone can convince me about the two prayer solution then fine as I am not out to convince people about things but I seek the Truth. Wakas said morning and then afternoon? I cannot exclude that the nightly activity is not a form of Communion however.
For afternoon prayer there seems to be certain support from text within the Bible where they talk about the 3 o'clock prayer. But this salat talk makes me go crazy and I wish there could be more precision.
Anyway, I think the meaning of salah is so easy we would laugh if we got to hear the answer from the Lord and know how much conjecture was really involved in the common understanding. I would not be surprised if it is simply keep the tie to God alive and no more than this. That understanding would always support the context too after I have been thinking while reading the flow of text.
God bless you
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Please provide evidence for this dishonesty.
I have evidenced this all over the place . . . follow my profile and see. And once more . . . you condemn me on basis of prejudice/hate/bias first . . . so if you are waiting for "evidence" how do you know I am being dishonest? Shouldn't you wait for the "evidence"? Yeah right.
Evidence is there - repeatedly. This section - see who I was replying to . . . I gave evidence of 5 prayers from the Quran - was the person interested? No.
This is one post . . . I have repeatedly challenged BS on this forum . . .when you people FAIL then you get abusive - just like you, petal.
What hk requests is rather simple - the three salat names other than fajr & isha, as per Quran. You are providing alleged times with no names. Perhaps this is another case wherein you are incapable of expressing your view clearly.
There was no case of it earlier . . . I blew your BS wide open . . . why don't you read it . . . ?
You didn't "smash" any myths by that article . . .
And I have already pointed out - Quran gives names of 3 and not 2 prayers . . . also all names are time references.
Unfortunately you do not seem to understand basic logic. hk is not saying Quran says X then failing to provide evidence for X. You are.
My preference is to be clear if I say Quran says X then provide evidence for X. Your method seems different.
Once more nonsense. Accusation of fallacious logic and then you back it up with this
"hk is not saying Quran says X then failing to provide evidence for X."
Yeah right - how nonsensical. . .
Why don't you try addressing the fallacy you tried to pull above? Not hiding are you? It was fundamentally dishonest . . . and illogical nonsense.
Realized you mistakes there and started on this one?
Why not go and address you own stuff first?
As for "HK" - the question never started off with 5 prayer "names" from Quran. . . . it was about evidence of five prayers from Quran. And I have already answered this . . . Quran gives names of 3 prayers!
See fundamentally dishonest or not?
I mean did you bother to read . . . . or just stuck your oar in?
You mean the time where you ended up saying (finally) what I said all along? Or the time when your words implied Islam did not exist prior to chapter 17? ;D
Neither - I have answered this . . . and I did not end up saying finally or otherwise - what you were saying. It is an illogical stunt . . . and you left it dearest.
Why don't you go back to it . . . leave this to whom it belongs and finish that off first?
I think deep down you know full well the wool you are trying to pull . . . and you probably know full well the idiocy of your own argument.
As - the article you pasted up er . . . and then claimed it smashes "5 salat myth" and then invented that 98%+ Sunni do not know that how Salah started. Yet stupidly pointed out the story of Miraj!
So which "myth" was it that was smashed?
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These are our Sunni books - whom you do not "believe" in at all . . . so how is it you believe one part and then discard the rest? What criteria exactly?
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After 5 prayers were established - our narrative claims everyone prayed 5 - including the Prophet Muhammad. And we agree on the number . . . . so all Muslims when obligatory prayers were established prayed 5. And it is our narrative that says before this - there was no established order/command regarding prayers. . . and early Muslims prayed 2,3 or in-numerable prayers.
So on which basis is this Sunni narrative partially exposing "myths" - which one? Wouldn't "myths" actually be exposed if after this command of 5 prayers . . . people still prayed less than 5?
Or the time when your words implied Islam did not exist prior to chapter 17?
And when was this? Or have you resorted to open lies? Like some of your brethren?
Oh - is that why you moved on? You knew you couldn't answer?
Isn't it telling that when I have given and fulfilled the criteria of finding evidence of 5 prayers from the Quran . . . that people like you simply moved on?
Then goal posts were changed to find the "names" . . . something . . . that really wasn't under question? For example we Sunni - talk about Tawhid a lot . . . and this oneness of God is the most basic definition of being a Muslim but the word does not appear in the Quran - not once. The concept does! The word doesn't.
So when someone asks for evidence for this oneness of Almighty from the Quran and when answered . . . then says no - now prove the word "Tawhid" from the Quran . . .
Now - see the basic dishonesty?
We have never hid this . . . and large swatches of Sunni faith are established such a way. For example "Fiqh" - the concept of Islamic law - we derive/base from the Quran and Hadith. . . and even the word. Yet - the word as such is not found. Similarly Tassawuf - its base material is from Quran - the word isn't.
hk is not saying Quran says X then failing to provide evidence for X. You are.
Yeah . . . see your dear lord . . . he forgot to give you a lot that isn't Quran. See he forgot to include Arabic language in the Quran. And for eternity you are in debt to Sunni/Shia for it! Go figure. The people - who are wrong and have been wrong for everything else. . . yet for Arabic they are neeeded.
Oh wait . . . whenever Yuksel needs it . . . or you people . . . then you invent new meanings.
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Salah basically means like Communion or similar. At least that is the simplest possible explanation for the word and the possibility to use this term in the context so it always makes sense. But I must agree that the word seems to connote many different things in the same word much like Islam and Muslim. I personally found Mindful/mindfulness within the same boundaries, it is like a data uplink to God.
Since salat involves voice communication I can only anticipate that it means that one ought to speak to God as if God is there and have a kind of mono/dia-logue.
Sorry I know the topic of this thread is whether it is three salat or not per day and not what salat is, I was provoked by the previous poster(s). As I personally understands it there is a prayer at dawn/morning and one in the other end of the day and then one at nightfall with included nightly meditation and probably a deeper Communion. If someone can convince me about the two prayer solution then fine as I am not out to convince people about things but I seek the Truth. Wakas said morning and then afternoon? I cannot exclude that the nightly activity is not a form of Communion however.
For afternoon prayer there seems to be certain support from text within the Bible where they talk about the 3 o'clock prayer. But this salat talk makes me go crazy and I wish there could be more precision.
Anyway, I think the meaning of salah is so easy we would laugh if we got to hear the answer from the Lord and know how much conjecture was really involved in the common understanding. I would not be surprised if it is simply keep the tie to God alive and no more than this. That understanding would always support the context too after I have been thinking while reading the flow of text.
God bless you
You hijack topics . . . when questioned you turn very vile and nasty.
Salah basically means like Communion or similar. At least that is the simplest possible explanation for the word and the possibility to use this term in the context so it always makes sense.
How do you know "Salah" means "Communion or similar"? Where did you get that?
It is a simple question . . .I am not swearing, insulting or whatever . . . I am asking a question.
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Anyway, I think the meaning of salah is so easy
How is it easy. How do you know?
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You hijack topics . . . when questioned you turn very vile and nasty.
I was not even talking to you but the other people of this forum. Well, I was warned because of my harsh responses to you, so now I will only reject you in a more subtle manner. It is not worth being banned over this.
How do you know "Salah" means "Communion or similar"? Where did you get that?
It is a simple question . . .I am not swearing, insulting or whatever . . . I am asking a question.
From study of the root word and simple comparisons based on the context in The Book. It was not really rocket science.
How is it easy. How do you know?
Because man complicates things. Lots of conjecture. It has happened in the past and it happens now.
Peace out
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From study of the root word and simple comparisons based on the context in The Book. It was not really rocket science.
I would like to know more. . .
Because man complicates things. Lots of conjecture. It has happened in the past and it happens now.
I don't get what this means? I really do not.
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I would like to know more. . .
I don't get what this means? I really do not.
Peace,
There is no time to explain anything at this time. I might bring that up in the Nearness and Guidance thread at some point.
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Salaam
Salah basically means like Communion or similar. At least that is the simplest possible explanation for the word and the possibility to use this term in the context so it always makes sense. But I must agree that the word seems to connote many different things in the same word much like Islam and Muslim. I personally found Mindful/mindfulness within the same boundaries, it is like a data uplink to God.
Maybe I can agree with the chimp, but remember I'm neutral in here and not belong to any sects (including Sunni).
Actually there is no verses in the Quran which said if salah is bowing-prostating ritual or even communion.
Like I said we even didn't know if salah is a ritual prayer if we keep rely upon Quran only.
Quranites actualy must said "thanks" to hadithers beause they know if salah is ritual prayers by hadith theaching actually.In Quran the word salah and bow-prostate-kneeling even written separately,
Example 243 And hold Assalat, and contribute towards purification, and kneel with those who kneel.People who uphold Quran only withouth knowing hadith at all before, may think if Assalat and kneel-prostate is two separate things.
245 And seek help by patience and salat the contact prayer.It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble.
Once again if people who know nothing bout another narrations beside Quran, will think if salat in 245 is not a physiccal ritual but just a humble pray.
May God bless you
