unforgivable sin
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The word atheist/no theist couldn't be found in the Quran.
Disbeliever (shirk, kufr etc) is someone who refuse God's revelation and worship another god.Peace
Peace earthdom, that's what I meant. Atheist, not in the Qur'an, disbeliever is. How do you define atheists. Do they refuse God's revelations? Yes. Do they worship another God? No. So what can we say then. Atheists are simply people who lack a belief in God.
Peace peace
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Peace,
I find this a difficult question to answer, but in my interpretation of The Book it takes Faith in God to fulfill the circle of redemption. Empty-minded goodness also often has some background in desire to be accepted or self-fulfillment which is not being truly good at heart. It would mean to be good to be seen among men, this is something which is not a valid basis for redemption if you know what I mean. But if you are good truly out of unselfishness or that you yourself require but little then that is authentic goodness. The problem is the border between when it is to satisfy your own ego or truly not expect anything in return.
However not everyone does good out of self-gratification and some seem to intuitively feel the system of God, and they ought to believe in the system of God at least even if they deny God out of ignorance. They follow the system that God created.
I find the dilemma difficult to judge really; when people do remarkably much good with not expectations of anything in return, but they do not believe in God. It could be that they lie against themselves and have an inner Faith that there is an existing God, but due to the chaotic state of world religions they subconsciously deny the existence of God and associate belief in God with the religions and such spirituality.
I would not say " if you don't believe in God then all your good deeds go to waste", because I am not competent enough to judge that as the judgement is with God. Good deeds weigh heavily and you have my thread 'Nearness and Guidance' as a testament to that. But certainly we have those who believe that Jesus is the son of God although these people are really goodhearted and behave well and I feel sorry for their ignorance as I would gladly have them go to Paradise and forgive them because it was unknowing ignorance, but God has made written that such thing is unforgivable. But disbelief and association with partners of God is usually related to mischief and vice, so it could be that those who misbehave and believe conjecture and argue violently about it, those will definitely go to Hell.
I hate to see goodhearted people whose main crime is the misconception that Jesus is a son of God go to Hell on this basis, although I am not competent enough to say whether every single person of those who did so will go that fate. But it is true that they have made Jesus a rival to God, a divinity and they often thank him for everything. If I was God I would certainly be a bit grumpy if I had created the whole world including every atom of the Universe and then people go thank a powerless human who only channeled God's Holy Spirit so that he could perform "miracles". People cannot heed the Message "God is One" which is present in the teachings (Torah) of Moses nor did Jesus every say that you have another lord than the Lord. He did even sneeze at them when they wanted to call him lord.
Sorry I lost focus as your original question was on the "atheists", but I expanded it a little. The Message is that this is a test we are here on Earth and one parameter seems to be to discover about God, much like Abraham on his own without any scriptural help used his logic that there must be one Creator. We should have Faith in the system of God and not give the system any helpers or associates from our imagination or real beings and know that we are from Him. Otherwise we do not have to be affiliated with religious groups but we only have to have this Faith in the One system and its One administrator 'God' and that we live up to God's system of being good and upholding what is good. Faith in God while keeping the bond to Him and doing His works here on Earth is what is required of us and not to be "Muslims" belonging to "Islam".
But once again, the individual judgement is on The Lord, so best is to try to enlighten those who refuse to believe and otherwise the judgement is with God.
Sorry if I just rambled on in circles without being able to elaborate anything in all that text. Hope it was useful anyway.
God bless you
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Peace earthdom, that's what I meant. Atheist, not in the Qur'an, disbeliever is. How do you define atheists. Do they refuse God's revelations? Yes. Do they worship another God? No. So what can we say then. Atheists are simply people who lack a belief in God.
Atheist think by use their own minds and reasons, not bounded by any religious texts.
Peace
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Peace drfazl,
This has always been my view on it.
Peace
sushi,Your view is correct. Your own view point is most applicable to you and that view point shall alone be most easy for you to be on the righteous conduct. When a view point is unique to yourself, that is from Allah; so bow to Allah and follow that which He has sent down upon you; and it is the way of Allah.
"Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind."
The problem can be what is defined as believing in God. Some traditional Muslims would say if you don't believe in a creator of some sort then that's shirk and unforgivable.
I say that is not the case.
I cannot comprehend that if someone who tries to do good works and good deeds (God's attributes) however they are not convinced of any creator, can then perish within the horrible chaotic state of hell. Atheists for example. I know some awesome aetheists who do such good works for the world, more than say a mulla who sits praying 5 times a day and not doing anything productive in the world (I think it's quite pointless to not do anything else to be honest).
Red wrong Green correct
Blue can be discussed here.
Every good comes only from God and every bad comes from our own works indeed. First it is God, who causes a sense of wishful goodness in our souls which sense we ought to follow. Follow means, following the wish we have been infused as sense in our hearts. If we know, the wish and sense is not a material thing to be gotten through our physical efforts and means of work.What we are chasing through our physical works and means are something that is not what Allah has wished or intended for us, for we shall never know materially, what that good sense in us is. When Allah intends a thing for any of us, all He has to say to it is 'Be!' And it is breathed into the soul as glad tidings. Every good news from Him for us is to be created afresh from the unseen of the secret treasures, hidden to us. The secret news is to be materially revealed only at the appointed time by Allah. For every creation, there is a time period. Since Allah does not copy His own creations, these to be created things for each of us, are unique and new ones, whose form and shape and the place where it is intended to be gifted to those who believed known only to Allah. Therefore we believers in the glad tidings shall not create form and shape to what Allah intends to create and that which He has kept as a secret until the time for it arrives. Thus all works and most of our efforts are in a direction far removed from the direction of our God's path.
Chaotic state of hell Sure enough, what we posses from our all out efforts materially shall perish and what remains with Allah alone exists until last. From our God given wish, what we bring into our frame of imagination as things would perish in vain that causes severe mental torture. And that greater portion that which we could not comprehend into forms and shapes of the glad tidings from Allah, takes shape gradually on its own course, coursing through God intended pace, to be delivered at the appointed time. All the good things we are experiencing and enjoying in our real life are gotten only in this manner, from Allah.
All our physical efforts are shirks in this manner, materialised hastily by our own imaginations, to the glad tidings, the blessings of Allah. And Allah's grace is such that we cannot imagine in full, all the ramifications of the entire gamut of what Allah has blessed upon us; and we are protected from creating shirks in those spheres of the rest of the Spectrum. A believer thus, while still all the time creating partial shirk - Allah comes to His rescue and makes the believers leave out the greatest part of His blessings that are well protected by Allah, guarding them as unimaginable.
And because of a believer's constancy in his belief, and of his seeking forgiveness; and his fear for God; and the will to guard against evil, Allah creates in material form most of His Blessings as surprise gifts through out his life time, that lasts for good. These people will not rejoice at what Allah had endowed upon them for they remember all those gifted moments are from the Mercy of Allah and glorify Him. They shall never be proud or self-boasting regarding those things. And the believers would despair not over whatever is lost from them for they remember they were not from Allah.
Regarding the atheists it is from them alone are the real believers totally pure from the muslims types of shirks, the christians types of shirks, the jewish types of shirks and so on.
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Peace,
I find this a difficult question to answer, but in my interpretation of The Book it takes Faith in God to fulfill the circle of redemption. Empty-minded goodness also often has some background in desire to be accepted or self-fulfillment which is not being truly good at heart. It would mean to be good to be seen among men, this is something which is not a valid basis for redemption if you know what I mean. But if you are good truly out of unselfishness or that you yourself require but little then that is authentic goodness. The problem is the border between when it is to satisfy your own ego or truly not expect anything in return.
However not everyone does good out of self-gratification and some seem to intuitively feel the system of God, and they ought to believe in the system of God at least even if they deny God out of ignorance. They follow the system that God created.
I find the dilemma difficult to judge really; when people do remarkably much good with not expectations of anything in return, but they do not believe in God. It could be that they lie against themselves and have an inner Faith that there is an existing God, but due to the chaotic state of world religions they subconsciously deny the existence of God and associate belief in God with the religions and such spirituality.
I would not say " if you don't believe in God then all your good deeds go to waste", because I am not competent enough to judge that as the judgement is with God. Good deeds weigh heavily and you have my thread 'Nearness and Guidance' as a testament to that. But certainly we have those who believe that Jesus is the son of God although these people are really goodhearted and behave well and I feel sorry for their ignorance as I would gladly have them go to Paradise and forgive them because it was unknowing ignorance, but God has made written that such thing is unforgivable. But disbelief and association with partners of God is usually related to mischief and vice, so it could be that those who misbehave and believe conjecture and argue violently about it, those will definitely go to Hell.
I hate to see goodhearted people whose main crime is the misconception that Jesus is a son of God go to Hell on this basis, although I am not competent enough to say whether every single person of those who did so will go that fate. But it is true that they have made Jesus a rival to God, a divinity and they often thank him for everything. If I was God I would certainly be a bit grumpy if I had created the whole world including every atom of the Universe and then people go thank a powerless human who only channeled God's Holy Spirit so that he could perform "miracles". People cannot heed the Message "God is One" which is present in the teachings (Torah) of Moses nor did Jesus every say that you have another lord than the Lord. He did even sneeze at them when they wanted to call him lord.
Sorry I lost focus as your original question was on the "atheists", but I expanded it a little. The Message is that this is a test we are here on Earth and one parameter seems to be to discover about God, much like Abraham on his own without any scriptural help used his logic that there must be one Creator. We should have Faith in the system of God and not give the system any helpers or associates from our imagination or real beings and know that we are from Him. Otherwise we do not have to be affiliated with religious groups but we only have to have this Faith in the One system and its One administrator 'God' and that we live up to God's system of being good and upholding what is good. Faith in God while keeping the bond to Him and doing His works here on Earth is what is required of us and not to be "Muslims" belonging to "Islam".
But once again, the individual judgement is on The Lord, so best is to try to enlighten those who refuse to believe and otherwise the judgement is with God.
Sorry if I just rambled on in circles without being able to elaborate anything in all that text. Hope it was useful anyway.
God bless you
Peace Man of Faith,
I understand what you are trying to say. I think it needs to be identified what shirk or unforgivable sin is. Someone who worships Jesus and continues to do good deeds is a complicated one, however majority of christrians as far as I know don't see Jesus as God but see him as a part of God and feel they need to pray through him to get to God. People do forget about God though.....
I understood most of what you're saying. Don't worry it was pretty clear ).
God bless
peace -
Peace
sushi,Your view is correct. Your own view point is most applicable to you and that view point shall alone be most easy for you to be on the righteous conduct. When a view point is unique to yourself, that is from Allah; so bow to Allah and follow that which He has sent down upon you; and it is the way of Allah.
"Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind."
Red wrong Green correct
Blue can be discussed here.
Every good comes only from God and every bad comes from our own works indeed. First it is God, who causes a sense of wishful goodness in our souls which sense we ought to follow. Follow means, following the wish we have been infused as sense in our hearts. If we know, the wish and sense is not a material thing to be gotten through our physical efforts and means of work.What we are chasing through our physical works and means are something that is not what Allah has wished or intended for us, for we shall never know materially, what that good sense in us is. When Allah intends a thing for any of us, all He has to say to it is 'Be!' And it is breathed into the soul as glad tidings. Every good news from Him for us is to be created afresh from the unseen of the secret treasures, hidden to us. The secret news is to be materially revealed only at the appointed time by Allah. For every creation, there is a time period. Since Allah does not copy His own creations, these to be created things for each of us, are unique and new ones, whose form and shape and the place where it is intended to be gifted to those who believed known only to Allah. Therefore we believers in the glad tidings shall not create form and shape to what Allah intends to create and that which He has kept as a secret until the time for it arrives. Thus all works and most of our efforts are in a direction far removed from the direction of our God's path.
Chaotic state of hell Sure enough, what we posses from our all out efforts materially shall perish and what remains with Allah alone exists until last. From our God given wish, what we bring into our frame of imagination as things would perish in vain that causes severe mental torture. And that greater portion that which we could not comprehend into forms and shapes of the glad tidings from Allah, takes shape gradually on its own course, coursing through God intended pace, to be delivered at the appointed time. All the good things we are experiencing and enjoying in our real life are gotten only in this manner, from Allah.
All our physical efforts are shirks in this manner, materialised hastily by our own imaginations, to the glad tidings, the blessings of Allah. And Allah's grace is such that we cannot imagine in full, all the ramifications of the entire gamut of what Allah has blessed upon us; and we are protected from creating shirks in those spheres of the rest of the Spectrum. A believer thus, while still all the time creating partial shirk - Allah comes to His rescue and makes the believers leave out the greatest part of His blessings that are well protected by Allah, guarding them as unimaginable.
And because of a believer's constancy in his belief, and of his seeking forgiveness; and his fear for God; and the will to guard against evil, Allah creates in material form most of His Blessings as surprise gifts through out his life time, that lasts for good. These people will not rejoice at what Allah had endowed upon them for they remember all those gifted moments are from the Mercy of Allah and glorify Him. They shall never be proud or self-boasting regarding those things. And the believers would despair not over whatever is lost from them for they remember they were not from Allah.
Regarding the atheists it is from them alone are the real believers totally pure from the muslims types of shirks, the christians types of shirks, the jewish types of shirks and so on.
Peace drfazl, thanks for your long reply.
So you reckon that atheists can be without shirk (agreed by the way) but obviously some do commit shirk?
What is your definition of shirk using the Quran? If you can extract verses from the Quran and define it like so then that would be great.I think one question is this.
You have someone who believes in a God, but also prays to Jesus as well.
You have someone who is uncertain of the existence of a God as such but does good works (essentially doing God's attributes but just uncertain of an existence of God... atheist).
You have someone who believes in a God but seeks worldly pleasures like lots of money, sex etc etc.Which ones in your opinion are committing shirk, something that is unforgivable. Is it hard to accept something being unforgivable for the most forgiving God? But then again, is God "most" forgiving? Or "all" forgiving?
peace
Awaiting your response -
Peace drfazl, thanks for your long reply.
So you reckon that atheists can be without shirk (agreed by the way) but obviously some do commit shirk?
What is your definition of shirk using the Quran? If you can extract verses from the Quran and define it like so then that would be great.
Peace
sushi,"And most of them believe not in Allah except while they associate others with Him." 12106
This is the general law of human nature which is mostly forgiven by Allah, as long as we show Allah our sincere efforts at improvement in our iman. Such people always have fear and concern of their own weaknesses and seek forgiveness from Allah while seeking from Him to elevate them in iman. 10100 And it is not for a soul to have iman except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason.The definition of shirk using Quran is Those who involve in shirk with pride are impure and those who commit shirk and fear God all the time for their own all-time weaknesses at it, and put their trust in Him that He saved them from all forms of shirks forever and praying to Allah for purifying and strengthening their hearts are under the Mercy of God. Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone 449 Thus Allah would purify of the shirks of those who would not sit in judgement on others' iman, as to who a mumin is and who is not a mumin, and those who fear their own status.
If we read this ayat Allah bundles them all into one category 262 Indeed, 1. those who call them Believers or 2. those who call them Jews or 3. those who call them Christians or 4. those who call them Atheists - Among these, those who believed in the One, The All Encompassing, Superior Power and there punishment for their evil works and reward for their Good deeds; and guard them - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
I think one question is this.
You have someone who believes in a God, but also prays to Jesus as well.
You have someone who is uncertain of the existence of a God as such but does good works (essentially doing God's attributes but just uncertain of an existence of God... atheist).
You have someone who believes in a God but seeks worldly pleasures like lots of money, sex etc etc.Which ones in your opinion are committing shirk, something that is unforgivable. Is it hard to accept something being unforgivable for the most forgiving God? But then again, is God "most" forgiving? Or "all" forgiving?
If you think I have not answered your above question in the previous paragraphs please ask me again.
-
Peace
sushi,"And most of them believe not in Allah except while they associate others with Him." 12106
This is the general law of human nature which is mostly forgiven by Allah, as long as we show Allah our sincere efforts at improvement in our iman. Such people always have fear and concern of their own weaknesses and seek forgiveness from Allah while seeking from Him to elevate them in iman. 10100 And it is not for a soul to have iman except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason.The definition of shirk using Quran is Those who involve in shirk with pride are impure and those who commit shirk and fear God all the time for their own all-time weaknesses at it, and put their trust in Him that He saved them from all forms of shirks forever and praying to Allah for purifying and strengthening their hearts are under the Mercy of God. Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone 449 Thus Allah would purify of the shirks of those who would not sit in judgement on others' iman, as to who a mumin is and who is not a mumin, and those who fear their own status.
If we read this ayat Allah bundles them all into one category 262 Indeed, 1. those who call them Believers or 2. those who call them Jews or 3. those who call them Christians or 4. those who call them Atheists - Among these, those who believed in the One, The All Encompassing, Superior Power and there punishment for their evil works and reward for their Good deeds; and guard them - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
If you think I have not answered your above question in the previous paragraphs please ask me again.
Peace drfazl,
I think I understand what you're saying, but you're saying that those who commit shirk all the time are the wrongdoers. But they cannot be forgiven, correct?
4116 God does not forgive to have partners set up with Him, but He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying
The verse implies that at any time (or how ever many times, even just once) that God does not forgive shirk. Also, I think your translation of 262 isn't correct or might need more explaining. It says those who believe, the Jews, the nazarenes, and the sabians (atheists isn't used in the Qur'an).
Peace peace
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Peace drfazl,
I think I understand what you're saying, but you're saying that those who commit shirk all the time are the wrongdoers. But they cannot be forgiven, correct?
I said by nature every one commits shirk; and all of us when we commit shirk shall be forgiven if only we have no pride and guard us to a well possible extent. Can you point out that part which gives the meaning you had taken. And I had said Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
4116 God does not forgive to have partners set up with Him, but He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying
The verse implies that at any time (or how ever many times, even just once) that God does not forgive shirk.
Every person is judged by Allah throughout his life time with tests after tests he had earned due to his shirky business; and each time rescuing him and teaching him that Allah alone is his Rescuer, if only he behaves with gratitude. His entire life span is meant for and allowed to him only to slowly and determinedly learn shirk-avoided life, for Allah's sake, before his life comes to an end.
An example to this is when we fall sick and sickness after sickness at intervals grip our bodily organs one after another, Allah cures him; yet he fails to understand or learn from each sickness to stay away from associating doctors when it is Allah who cures him. It goes on and on and his life almost comes to an end. But in the end also if he goes to the hospital for example to save his life, and further his life on the earth it is not to be so. And then when he dies at the hands of a bunch of doctors, he has failed finally. He stood example to him that he wanted to defy Allah and beat up His Hour; and his death on the Hour makes him a witness that he died as one who died while committing association because of unbelief. Our lives should not end like this. The way to die is open to the discretion of each.
9125 But those in whose hearts is a disease,- it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.
Also, I think your translation of 262 isn't correct or might need more explaining. It says those who believe, the Jews, the nazarenes, and the sabians (atheists isn't used in the Qur'an).
I know. Only four groups are given as examples here in this ayat; it does not mean it excludes, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and atheists and so on. I did not mean to give the literal meaning to Sabeans but gave one another way to completion of life, people had devised for them.
Peace peace
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I said by nature every one commits shirk; and all of us when we commit shirk shall be forgiven if only we have no pride and guard us to a well possible extent. Can you point out that part which gives the meaning you had taken. And I had said Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Every person is judged by Allah throughout his life time with tests after tests he had earned due to his shirky business; and each time rescuing him and teaching him that Allah alone is his Rescuer, if only he behaves with gratitude. His entire life span is meant for and allowed to him only to slowly and determinedly learn shirk-avoided life, for Allah's sake, before his life comes to an end.
An example to this is when we fall sick and sickness after sickness at intervals grip our bodily organs one after another, Allah cures him; yet he fails to understand or learn from each sickness to stay away from associating doctors when it is Allah who cures him. It goes on and on and his life almost comes to an end. But in the end also if he goes to the hospital for example to save his life, and further his life on the earth it is not to be so. And then when he dies at the hands of a bunch of doctors, he has failed finally. He stood example to him that he wanted to defy Allah and beat up His Hour; and his death on the Hour makes him a witness that he died as one who died while committing association because of unbelief. Our lives should not end like this. The way to die is open to the discretion of each.
9125 But those in whose hearts is a disease,- it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.
I know. Only four groups are given as examples here in this ayat; it does not mean it excludes, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and atheists and so on. I did not mean to give the literal meaning to Sabeans but gave one another way to completion of life, people had devised for them.
Peace peace
Peace drfazl,
"The definition of shirk using Quran is Those who involve in shirk with pride are impure and those who commit shirk and fear God all the time for their own all-time weaknesses at it, and put their trust in Him that He saved them from all forms of shirks forever and praying to Allah for purifying and strengthening their hearts are under the Mercy of God."
That's where i had taken the understanding from but obviously had taken it wrong. So basically if you die in a state where you have been committing shirk then you're buggered basically (obviously final judgment is down to God). So there isn't an unforgivable sin then as such..
In regards to the different religions, where can we say that the Quran doesn't exclude the other religions. I'm assuming its the part where the Quran talks of any of those who believe.
peace
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Peace Sushi,
I understand where you are coming from. However, I have to say that this particular issue seems to be quite clear in the Koran. If you do not believe, you cannot go to heaven. I suppose, not believing in God by implication suggests you must believe in another greater being either consciously or subconsciously. Part of submission is believing in what you cannot see. It doesn't matter how good you are. Part of the deal is believing in the one God.
Conversely, the Koran also says that most of the believers won't go to heaven. Presumably, they may believe in God, but something else also, or they have not been good enough.
In conclusion, be good and believe!!
Dawn
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Peace Sushi,
I understand where you are coming from. However, I have to say that this particular issue seems to be quite clear in the Koran. If you do not believe, you cannot go to heaven. I suppose, not believing in God by implication suggests you must believe in another greater being either consciously or subconsciously. Part of submission is believing in what you cannot see. It doesn't matter how good you are. Part of the deal is believing in the one God.
Conversely, the Koran also says that most of the believers won't go to heaven. Presumably, they may believe in God, but something else also, or they have not been good enough.
In conclusion, be good and believe!!
Dawn
I see where you're coming from, I suppose it depends on what we think God is for a start. I'm sure we cannot come to the conclusion that ALL athiests will go hell.. i don't feel comfortable with that conclusion in all honesty.
Peace peace