Alcohol/intoxicants.
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Oxygen as a recreational drug. An oxygen bar, no less! That's right, the oxygen that we are breathing right now can be used as an intoxicant.
Herein lies absurdity of your objections - oxygen that we breathe is not harmful nor an intoxicant. If it was we would be going round high - but we are not. Hence there is clear difference between what we breathe and a concentrated from which gives some kind of high.
Here is what your link says
"Yes we breath it all day long but some believe in concentrated form when breathed intensely for short periods that it can produce a high to replace the need for illegal alternatives."
Doesn't tell much does it. What kind of high? Is it a stimulant like coffee, tea, qat?
Here is an article on water intoxication
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
"Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning or dilutional hyponatremia, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside safe limits by over-hydration."
There you go . . . enough said on that. Your own "source" is against your argument and reveals the underlying absurdity.
Here is something for you to ponder upon
How do you think secular law deals with the difference between these intoxicants and those that actually cause damage?
Here is an article on how much alcohol it actually takes to intoxicate a normal person of given weight
http//www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html
So, if alcohol is an intoxicant in any amount (as some argue), it can be inferred that oxygen and water are likewise intoxicants in any amount, right?
Other than the fact that water and oxygen intoxication actually refers to something else. And to the fact that - alcoholic drinks and drugs - their primary function is to alter state of human mind and body functions in some way and this is obviously not true for Water and Oxygen. The two are very different in nature.
Put down the coffee, and the chai, and the tea! Caffeine is a drug. And the pipe, cigarette, and hookah! Nicotine is clearly a drug. Nutmeg and chocolate are drugs. http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Nutmeg *** http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Cacao No extreme is too great, because it is CLEAR that intoxicants are prohibited! <sarcasm>
Tea and Coffee are stimulants - they produce a stimulating effect. Nicotine is a highly addictive and dangerous drug and it is equally fobidden in Islam. Once again the nature of the two is different. I have not yet heard of grave illnesses associated with Tea or Coffee.
Chocolate isn't a drug and neither is nutmeg and neither are they taken as drug.
I think you know that your objectives and so weak they flop over with a delicate push . . . but at least by the end of this no stone would be left unturned - and there will not really be any doubt left that Alcohol is banned in Islam.
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Peace,
In fact I have stopped drinking coffee lately due to its effects. But I have a problem that I drink too much if I let myself drink.
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Oxygen taken in high concentration causes euphoria; this is the reason for recreational oxygen bars.
Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous, this is a truism. It is the same for all substances, including oxygen and water. Poison is by definition harmful.
Nutmeg is a drug, chocolate is a drug, and caffeine is also a drug. It isn't necessary to go into all of the ways that people use the drugs, the side effects or pharmacology of them--but links have been provided anyway. Stimulants are by definition drugs, and the prevalence of them doesn't change that fact one iota--it reinforces the fact that they are recreational drugs.
Here is an additional link for caffeine
http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Caffeine
Oxygen as we breathe does not cause intoxication unless concentrated. Small quantities of alcohol also do not cause intoxication. At my mass, I could imbibe several servings of alcohol before becoming intoxicated. So then, it is between a rock and a hard place for the logic of those that claim that alcohol is totally forbidden. If it is totally forbidden, then it follows that anything else capable of intoxication is also forbidden--including oxygen, water, chocolate, nutmeg, caffeine, nicotine, etc. If, on the other hand, it is intoxication that is totally forbidden, then a believer can enjoy any substance INCLUDING ALCOHOL so long as the quantity is not such as to cause intoxication.
It is still unproven that either intoxicants or intoxication are forbidden; I'm merely playing "devil's advocate" to this position. Some people have the understanding that one or the other is forbidden, and no personal attack is intended. Information is being shared, and everyone can use their own best judgment.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace,
In fact I have stopped drinking coffee lately due to its effects. But I have a problem that I drink too much if I let myself drink.
God bless you
I never drink the foul stuff. Tea - that is different matter. Classy people drink tea. Not your blend rubbish - and not from a clay mug!
You want a proper tea - Ceylon or Assam pure tea. Fine bone china - and proper tea pot.
Quality biscuits at the side!
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Oxygen taken in high concentration causes euphoria; this is the reason for recreational oxygen bars.
But it is not a drug/intoxicant - neither is the primary purpose of Oxygen to be these. Whereas the products under discussion are primarily used as narcotics .
In desperation - you are
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Repeating the same thing - without addressing the objections raised against your arguments.
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Committing logical fallacies - trying to force those points that are clearly outside the context and scope of the argument to bolster your own argument and to seek credence from those points is logically fallacious argument.
We already know things like Chocolate, Oxygen, etc, are not drugs and hence are not under consideration.
Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous, this is a truism. It is the same for all substances, including oxygen and water. Poison is by definition harmful.
Doh! And there we have it . . . Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous so in other words we are NOT Talking about any substance - we are talking about particular substances. We are simply talking about those substances that are PRIMARILY used as narcotics.
Nutmeg is a drug, chocolate is a drug, and caffeine is also a drug. It isn't necessary to go into all of the ways that people use the drugs, the side effects or pharmacology of them--but links have been provided anyway. Stimulants are by definition drugs, and the prevalence of them doesn't change that fact one iota--it reinforces the fact that they are recreational drugs.
Don't repeat yourself. As you have declared every substance to be er . . . "poisonous" then obviously the two mentioned above are harmful.
Now - Nutmeg is a spice - not a narcotic.
Neither is chocolate.
Mere repetition of your previous arguments will not help you out.
Small quantities of alcohol also do not cause intoxication.
So what is small? For example all fruit juices naturally are slightly that is very minutely alcoholic - but again those are outside the scope of the argument.
At my mass, I could imbibe several servings of alcohol before becoming intoxicated. So then, it is between a rock and a hard place for the logic of those that claim that alcohol is totally forbidden. If it is totally forbidden, then it follows that anything else capable of intoxication is also forbidden--including oxygen, water, chocolate, nutmeg, caffeine, nicotine
Fallacious logic! Ha! It is your own logic that is faulty. You have desperately tried to make non-narcotics into narcotics. And wrongly.
A brewed beverage that intoxicates in forbidden - wine, beer, spirits... and what do you argue with? Yeah, chocolate, oxygen, water...
If, on the other hand, it is intoxication that is totally forbidden, then a believer can enjoy any substance INCLUDING ALCOHOL so long as the quantity is not such as to cause intoxication.
And - I think you already know - both are forbidden. A beer at 5% volume of alcohol is forbidden
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Khamar - brewed beverages are forbidden.
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Sukur - anything that is addictive and primary purpose is as a narcotic is forbidden.
Hence one cannot take a single sip of the stuff.
It is still unproven that either intoxicants or intoxication are forbidden; I'm merely playing "devil's advocate" to this position. Some people have the understanding that one or the other is forbidden, and no personal attack is intended. Information is being shared, and everyone can use their own best judgment.
No offense - but you are resorting to being untruthful. If it is not proven - then why do you fail to address my points? Especially the verses 590-91?
Information is being shared, and everyone can use their own best judgment.
Cop out - on issues on cannot apply their own understandings - this leads to anarchy. Islam is NOT for anarchy and chaos.
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Peace,
I still drink tea. It is quite okay, but not just anything goes down in term of brands and types.
PS. nutmeg in large doses may give narcotic effects. However, it is required to consume lots of it for that. But the effects may be very intense and with delusions/hallucinations.
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Peace,
I still drink tea. It is quite okay, but not just anything goes down in term of brands and types.
PS. nutmeg in large doses may give narcotic effects. However, it is required to consume lots of it for that. But the effects may be very intense and with delusions/hallucinations.
Nah - you are missing out - try a tea that isn't a blend - such as your Tetley's or PG Tips . Quality tea is something special - if made properly.
As to Nutmeg
In low doses, nutmeg produces no noticeable physiological or neurological response, but in large doses, raw nutmeg has psychoactive effects.
This is fine.
However
In case reports intoxications with nutmeg had effects that varied from person to person, but were often reported to be an excited and confused state with headaches, nausea and dizziness, dry mouth, bloodshot eyes and memory disturbances. Nutmeg was also reported to induce hallucinogenic effects, such as visual distortions and paranoid ideation. In the reports nutmeg intoxication took several hours before maximum effect was reached. Effects and after-effects lasted up to several days.
This isn't.
But here are few things - this isn't really a narcotic as such - one from which people seek pleasure. There are no street level drug dealers selling nutmeg!
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Peace,
The problem with nutmeg as a recreational drug is that it takes substantial amounts of it to get intoxicated and then people who have tried have reported that it is many unpleasant sensations while affected. And you get a very dry tongue and heavy head the day after. It is simply not worthwhile to abuse it. However, in mild doses it might feel pleasant with nutmeg from a personal side, but never for recreational use as to get high on it.
I have considered drinking nutmeg tea as a relaxation, it is awesome, when you drink it just to calm your senses. But of course we may respond differently to various substances.
PS. I have actually tried to overdose on nutmeg myself while I was crazy in younger ages (or more crazy than now).
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
The_Chimp, there is a reason you are on my ignore list. I'm going to tear through your arguments with some cold hard facts.
But it is not a drug/intoxicant - neither is the primary purpose of Oxygen to be these. Whereas the products under discussion are primarily used as narcotics .
As proven with the example of oxygen bars, oxygen can be used as a drug--it doesn't matter if this is the primary purpose or not. At an oxygen bar, oxygen affects mood and behavior and is a drug.
In desperation - you are
- Repeating the same thing - without addressing the objections raised against your arguments.
If I repeat things, it is because what I repeat are FACTS and they seem invisible to some people. You are the only one raising any objections so far, and it is only now that you have provoked me enough to respond to you.
- Committing logical fallacies - trying to force those points that are clearly outside the context and scope of the argument to bolster your own argument and to seek credence from those points is logically fallacious argument.
We already know things like Chocolate, Oxygen, etc, are not drugs and hence are not under consideration.
Since I have posted links showing how they are used as drugs, your argument is clearly mistaken. rotfl Reading is fundamental. Since they can be used as drugs, they are entirely valid for consideration. Look at the subject "Alcohol/intoxicants."
Doh! And there we have it . . . Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous so in other words we are NOT Talking about any substance - we are talking about particular substances. We are simply talking about those substances that are PRIMARILY used as narcotics.
Did you or did you not post about "those that actually cause damage?" Well, they can ALL cause damage. Further, you are inserting a stipulation about primary use. Does this mean that sniffing glue or huffing paint or using other substances as drugs is okay since it isn't a primary use? Get real!
Don't repeat yourself. As you have declared every substance to be er . . . "poisonous" then obviously the two mentioned above are harmful.
You are now repeating yourself about me repeating myself--and you repeat your arguments (without additional facts) throughout your message. What is the proper label for one who engages in hypocrisy?
Now - Nutmeg is a spice - not a narcotic.
Did you bother to follow the link? Did you notice that it is on a forum about drugs? Did you read about how people use it to get high?
Neither is chocolate.
Read my post immediately above. People do use cacao and chocolate as drugs, and a link was provided to prove it.
Mere repetition of your previous arguments will not help you out.
I require no help against you. If this were a battle of the wits, you are disarmed. There's none so blind as those who will not see.
So what is small? For example all fruit juices naturally are slightly that is very minutely alcoholic - but again those are outside the scope of the argument.
Why is it outside the scope of argument? Because you say so? Because it weakens your position? ) I especially like how you claim that a beer is forbidden in an amount that can't by itself intoxicate, but juice with natural alcohol is allowed. You are truly a shining wit!
Fallacious logic! Ha! It is your own logic that is faulty. You have desperately tried to make non-narcotics into narcotics. And wrongly.
A brewed beverage that intoxicates in forbidden - wine, beer, spirits... and what do you argue with? Yeah, chocolate, oxygen, water...
I compare intoxicants to intoxicants. So sorry if this boggles your mind.
And - I think you already know - both are forbidden. A beer at 5% volume of alcohol is forbidden
So you claim, and without authority.
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Khamar - brewed beverages are forbidden.
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Sukur - anything that is addictive and primary purpose is as a narcotic is forbidden.
Well, stop drinking tea if these are your understandings.
Hence one cannot take a single sip of the stuff.
You are enough to drive a person to drink. I'll drink what I please. If you try to force others, ISA, you will come to the ending that you richly deserve.
No offense - but you are resorting to being untruthful. If it is not proven - then why do you fail to address my points? Especially the verses 590-91?
Did you read the part about "devil's advocate?" Your "points" have already been thoroughly addressed--and I wouldn't want to repeat myself! )
Cop out - on issues on cannot apply their own understandings - this leads to anarchy. Islam is NOT for anarchy and chaos.
Actually, there are multiple understandings and multiple ways to do things. There are many ways to pray, for instance. Tell me true, are you applying your own understanding to the position being presented, or are you taking somebody else as an authority? hmm Others apply their best understanding to AQ and come with a different conclusion than you. Are you so arrogant that you think that you are better than others, or do you admit to taking partners?
Beg pardon to all if this post is snarky--I feel that I have been provoked past decency and have attempted to keep things civil and relevant without personal attacks. I recognize that there in no "winning" here.
Proverbs 264 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
Proverbs 265 Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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@ Abdul Hadi
Beg pardon to all if this post is snarky--I feel that I have been provoked past decency and have attempted to keep things civil and relevant without personal attacks. I recognize that there in no "winning" here.
Huh?
I have not made a single attack on your person. Find me one such line? This is a baseless accusation - remains to be proven. I attack your views and your position - and that is all.
I have not made a single attack on you. I think this is simply because your arguments have failed - now you seek credence. But - please - find me one line that attacks you . . .
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In fact I have stopped drinking coffee lately due to its effects. But I have a problem that I drink too much if I let myself drink.
I suggest you used creamer in your coffee, to reduce nikotin effect.
I usually drink a mongoose coffee, I mean coffee seeds which already extracted by mongoose.
It has some healthy effect.Coffee has some health effect, but if we drink it to much, not good for kidney.
God bless you
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As proven with the example of oxygen bars, oxygen can be used as a drug--it doesn't matter if this is the primary purpose or not. At an oxygen bar, oxygen affects mood and behavior and is a drug.
Oxygen is not a drug. The proposition is silly and ridiculous. And it cannot be used as a narcotic either.
If I repeat things, it is because what I repeat are FACTS and they seem invisible to some people. You are the only one raising any objections so far, and it is only now that you have provoked me enough to respond to you.
No you don't. For example calling "oxygen" drug - how is that fact? Based on what? You repeat your argument - without addressing the objections raised against your position.
All the time - you were answering me - else what the point of answering? Who else is refuting you? And doing that in detail. Yet - you did not once acknowledge me. Then - when it is not working - you resorted to a petty attack on me. Sorry - it doesn't work this way.
Since I have posted links showing how they are used as drugs, your argument is clearly mistaken.
Mister - if you care to review your own links with honesty . . . that oxygen is NOT used as "drug" as such . . . I have already made that clear.
Once again you are repeating - without addressing the objections raised against you.
Also - "I" picked out the actual text and posted it here. Not you - I did that. And I addressed the points raised by you. It is sad - in return you have chosen the nasty way.
Reading is fundamental. Since they can be used as drugs, they are entirely valid for consideration. Look at the subject "Alcohol/intoxicants."
"Since they can be"
As I pointed out
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They are not real drugs - oxygen intake is NOT a drug.
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Water poisoning is NOT a drug.
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Their primary purpose is NOT for drug use.
And if you had really tried to respond to me . . . and tried to read and understand what is being said . . . then you would have noticed nad concluded
- If such material CAN BE used as drugs or for any purpose that harms you - then the SAME RULINGS WILL APPLY. Such usage would be banned.
Did you or did you not post about "those that actually cause damage?" Well, they can ALL cause damage. Further, you are inserting a stipulation about primary use. Does this mean that sniffing glue or huffing paint or using other substances as drugs is okay since it isn't a primary use? Get real!
Once more - if you had bothered to pay attention - rather than resorting such petty behaviour . . . then you would have noticed - substance misuse . . . any substance misuse and the Quranic injunction applies.
I even HINTED this . . . I asked you - how do you think secular law would handle this? No answer.
You are now repeating yourself about me repeating myself--and you repeat your arguments (without additional facts) throughout your message. What is the proper label for one who engages in hypocrisy?
No I am not - I am answering you.
Did you bother to follow the link? Did you notice that it is on a forum about drugs? Did you read about how people use it to get high?
Yes my darling yes . . . and did you notice that I answered this point. Why don't you go back and read - rather than silly and misplaced anger.
Read my post immediately above. People do use cacao and chocolate as drugs, and a link was provided to prove it.
Same thing . . . over and over yet one answer one
I answered this WAY WAY WAY back . . .
Any substance that is up for narcotic use IS and would be banned. The difference and it is an essential difference is this . . .
"Beer" and other alcoholic beverages are brewed SPECIFICALLY to intoxicate and CHOCOLATE and all other such material are not.
And that is a CRUCIAL difference. However when you use ANY MATERIAL for narcotic use - BANNED.
This is WHY "Grape Juice" is not banned and "Wine" would be!
I require no help against you. If this were a battle of the wits, you are disarmed. There's none so blind as those who will not see.
Mere meaningless rhetoric and nothing more.
Why is it outside the scope of argument? Because you say so? Because it weakens your position? I especially like how you claim that a beer is forbidden in an amount that can't by itself intoxicate, but juice with natural alcohol is allowed. You are truly a shining wit!
See rather than being funny and attempting wit and making this personal attack - if you BOTHER to read and respond correctly - you would have noticed the simple crucial difference laid out to you . . .
Beer is a brewed beverage ESPECIALLY for Alcohol - hence it is banned.
Natural fruit juice - AND I WAS HONEST ENOUGH TO MENTION THIS has absolutely minuscule amount of natural alcohol
"These trace levels of alcohol are so miniscule that they have no effect on the smell, colour or taste of the product and so bears no trace of its original nature. The body metabolises the alcohol faster than it is consumed, meaning it can have no possible intoxicating effect. "
I compare intoxicants to intoxicants. So sorry if this boggles your mind.
No you are NOT! Chocolate - the STATE we eat in is NOT a drug and neither is it a narcotic!
It is THAT SIMPLE!
Oxygen as we breathe IS NOT A NARCOTIC
WATER AS WE DRINK IS NOT A DRUG . . .
So you are NOT comparing "drugs"
So you claim, and without authority.
Quran - 590-91.
Well, stop drinking tea if these are your understandings.
Tea is not a drug - and its "Caffeine" is minuscule.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine
You are enough to drive a person to drink. I'll drink what I please. If you try to force others, ISA, you will come to the ending that you richly deserve.
So this is what is all about - you can justify whatever you want. . . this is AN OPEN FORUM as far as I know - and I can make my points AS CAN YOU.
THE PROPOSITION THAT I AM FORCING YOU BY COUNTERING YOUR VIEWS . . . IS RIDICULOUS PROPOSITION
you will come to the ending that you richly deserve.
This is plain nasty!
Did you read the part about "devil's advocate?" Your "points" have already been thoroughly addressed--and I wouldn't want to repeat myself!
No they haven't. Simply claiming they have is useless - if they have . . . where? Do point them out. If they really had been ANSWERED - you would have quoted them . . . you haven't - which points to the fact that nothing as such has been answered.
But you can still prove me wrong. . . by pointing where have you answered such points?
Actually, there are multiple understandings and multiple ways to do things. There are many ways to pray, for instance. Tell me true, are you applying your own understanding to the position being presented, or are you taking somebody else as an authority? hmm Others apply their best understanding to AQ and come with a different conclusion than you. Are you so arrogant that you think that you are better than others, or do you admit to taking partners?
More sheer outright nastiness
Are you so arrogant that
On the same token - or you so arrogant to think you are right? I mean your points failed to impress and you sought to attack me.
Tell me true, are you applying your own understanding to the position being presented, or are you taking somebody else as an authority?
Isn't that sweet . . . both! Have you not notice - my dear dear friend - I ain't not expert on drugs - hence rely on "expert view"
But here are the things I do excel at
Quran - having studied Arabic - and then studied at University the background to Quran - western and Muslim scholarship.
Arabic - Classical and MS.
So - over those I do not need to rely on others.
Now - I am not the least bit interested in "you" or making any judgements against "you". I am interested in the topic . . .
I offer you hand of peace . . . and if you can be generous to accept it . . . quit the shenanigans as highlighted above . . . and sensibly reply to the points raised.
There is no reason to turn nasty.
It will not work.
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Salam
it is not logical and it does not make sense to have a commandment that forbids alcohol.
because it is nonsensical to base such a forbidding injunction on avoiding it...we cannot avoid alcohol, it is everywhere in every organic process, and is important in many organic reactions necessary for life...
indeed the process of fermentation occurs all the time in nature, and its by-product is alcohol...we do have alcohol in our bodies, at all times...
now for the issue of haram, it is not even explicitly written in the Quran that alcohol is haram...
now let us take those two verses used as a rationale to prove that alcohol is forbidden by Allah (haram in Islam)...
5-90
5-91
5-90
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are an affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.5-91
The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you be deterred?as you can see, it is not alcohol that is explicitly asked to be avoided, but the devil, as the word used avoid is in the singular, not the plural,
ajtanibuhu not ajtanibuhum, as alcohol is cited alongside gambling and sacraments, otherwise it would have used the plural which is ajtanibuhum...
now what is the wisdom and commandment central in the Quran... avoiding TAGHUT, which means ABUSE and EXCESS...
and the devil encourages ABUSE and EXCESS...
so following this Quranic guideline, it is the excessive use of alcohol that is to be avoided...
if we used the crooked logic used to make alcohol haram, we would be avoiding one another as men and women as we can partake in fornication, or do some other evil things... or you would be avoiding to talk, because by talking you can be at risk of uttering profanities... these are just stupid extremes to drive through the argument I am making...
so avoiding the devil's encouragement for excess and abuse is what 5-90 and 5-91 are referring to, taking alcohol, gambling, and the throwing of arrows to determine outcomes in matters of faith, as examples...
besides why would Allah say to avoid salat when one is drunk? if alcohol is forbidden for consumption...
but getting drunk is abuse and is rijss (abomination)...and I love Laban, which is the 'alcohol' of milk...
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it is not logical and it does not make sense to have a commandment that forbids alcohol.
because it is nonsensical to base such a forbidding injunction on avoiding it...You have merely said that it is illogical to have such commandment - reason?
we cannot avoid alcohol, it is everywhere in every organic process, and is important in many organic reactions necessary for life...
indeed the process of fermentation occurs all the time in nature, and its by-product is alcohol...Again - it merely a claim . . . evidence?
Also - what is forbidden are 2 things
Sukr - being intoxicated.
Khamr - Intoxicants.
And we all already know - what beverages are prepared to for the purpose of getting intoxicated.
we do have alcohol in our bodies, at all times...
Claim. Please give evidence?
as you can see, it is not alcohol that is explicitly asked to be avoided, but the devil, as the word used avoid is in the singular, not the plural,
Or it could equally well apply to "Rijs". . . still leading to forbidness of Alcohol.
so following this Quranic guideline, it is the excessive use of alcohol that is to be avoided...
huh? Where? Where is this excess mentioned? The above verse clearly says
"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."
It adds up Intoxicant, Gambling, Stones Alters , divining arrows . . . are a defilement from work of Satan. So why would that be the case and then you can do all these but little? That makes no sense.
if we used the crooked logic used to make alcohol haram,
This is a logical fallacy - you have not established the logic to be "crooked" and are merely claiming it so and building further arguments upon it.
we would be avoiding one another as men and women as we can partake in fornication, or do some other evil things... or you would be avoiding to talk, because by talking you can be at risk of uttering profanities... these are just stupid extremes to drive through the argument I am making...
I did not get this. This analogy though - does not work
or you would be avoiding to talk, because by talking you can be at risk of uttering profanities
In that case one would go around avoiding grapes so not to become intoxicated - and that is a silly proposition. See - by not drinking those alcoholic drinks is where the ban lies . . .
so avoiding the devil's encouragement for excess and abuse is what 5-90 and 5-91 are referring to, taking alcohol, gambling, and the throwing of arrows to determine outcomes in matters of faith...
Yet - the verse did not say this. It simply said avoid and refrain. Where is this limitation of excess from?
besides why would Allah say to avoid salat when one is drunk? if alcohol is forbidden for consumption...
but getting drunk is abuse and is rijss (abomination)...Saying avoid Salat when drunk is not evidence that drinking or getting drunk is permitted. It merely says - do not Pray when drunk.
and I love Laban, which is the 'alcohol' of milk...
Really? And who else is terming milk as such?
"Milk is an emulsion or colloid of butterfat globules within a water-based fluid that contains dissolved carbohydrates and protein aggregates with minerals."
"an opaque white fluid rich in fat and protein, secreted by female mammals for the nourishment of their young."
Milk is very different from Alcohol.
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I suggest you used creamer in your coffee, to reduce nikotin effect.
I usually drink a mongoose coffee, I mean coffee seeds which already extracted by mongoose.
It has some healthy effect.Coffee has some health effect, but if we drink it to much, not good for kidney.
God bless you
RedCaffeine you mean?
I simply drink too much coffee. It is readily available in our country and we are big consumers of coffee so it is easy to fall into the trap of just drinking loads of it once you start if you don't restrain yourself. In my line of work we get offered coffee at business meetings and it is sometimes difficult to say no. And I simply cannot control it when I work somehow because I lose that ability to realize how much I have been drinking due to the distraction.
I think there are too few health benefits of coffee to make it worthwhile for that sake, but the high is okay, though it so quickly shows withdrawal symptoms when on a high concentration of caffeine in the blood. Having a minor poisoning is really nasty (you get this when you drink a certain amount of mugs per day).
But if one decides to just drink coffee in the morning or after lunch then it is not a big deal.
I have argued to myself that it might be okay with just a glass of wine sometimes if you stick to that decision too. It is not a big deal and I have doubts that God would condemn me to Hell on that basis as long as I believe and do good. But so far since 2008 I have not had one single glass of it or any other alcoholic beverage. God is giving the reasons why 'khamr' should not be consumed and it is due to possible enmity and hatred between people and to keep one's Communion unfocused and not able to comprehend oneself what is being said. Probably the obvious reasons such as detrimental effects on the body too. With alcohol, for example, we tend to be more susceptible to immoral actions too, adultery etc.
Man has known for thousands of years that we are more easily seduced by alcohol and you have the example with Lut and his daughters (even if I think the actual story is a blatant lie, but the author nonetheless knew). Our ability to judge is increasingly impaired the more we drink, and Islam is depending much on this ability so to that it is a fundamental value in it. You have yawn al-deen as an example. The word indicates judgement and although we slip into my personal opinions, deen does mean to have God's Judgement and explicitly system even if it is part of the meaning. Joseph followed God's deen (judgement) when he restrained himself from committing immorality with his master's wife.
Sorry I try to minimize the multiple meanings with words since I believe that this old language (Arabic) does not have this ability with words or at least minimal such.
God bless you
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Allah never said avoid Alcohol, He said avoid taghut, and avoid Satan's whispers...
and fermented milk contains alcohol...
your gut is full of alcohol, it is a by-product of the excretions of the yeast candida albicans...
stop moralising in matters you are just being self righteous about...
and I for one used not to drink alcohol, but have been drinking occasionally for pleasure for quite some time now, red wine, and mead (wine made from pure honey) for the good that is in them, and avoiding excess, i.e. not getting drunk...
and have a very clear conscience about it...
and do not make haram what is not... this is a grievous sin...
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Salaam
2219 is clear about what an intoxicant is an agent that causes more harm than good. Do you think water, oxygen, nutmeg... fall under this category!!! Look around you and see what are these substances that do more harm than good alcohol nicotine, cocaine, heroin, cannabis (a recent joint French-British study showed that cannabis is one of the major causes of school and college drop-outs as it affects directly the hippocampus, necessary for memory) Are you blind or don't you use your reason? Go to the site of the FDA and you will get a complete list of known intoxicants today - and alcohol top the list along with heroin and cocain.
Caffeine is considered as GRAS (Generally recognised as safe) is a psychostimulant and does not alter consciousness under normal use.
I don't understand the fuss about the word 'avoid' 2219 says that khamar is ithmun and in 7133 God made isthmun haraam. That should be sufficient for us. Yes we have to avoid taghout (590) and with him the tools he uses to divert us from the path of God (591)
@theNabster ; if your gut is full of alcohol because of candida albicans, you should go to your doctor on the spot and get this treated. Candidiasis is a severe disease and it's a doctor who is telling you that. As a professional, I can only advise to stay far away from this substance. 100% of my patients with alcohol problems started like you and all 'knew their limits'... but get trapped.
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Aoa
your gut is full of alcohol, it is a by-product of the excretions of the yeast candida albicans
...Amazing! & the source of your information is?
and I for one used not to drink alcohol, but have been drinking occasionally for pleasure for quite some time now, red wine, and mead (wine made from pure honey) for the good that is in them, and avoiding excess, i.e. not getting drunk...
What kind of pleasure?. At what precise point do you consider excess i.e. Do you monitor your blood levels or do you have cerebral check list.
and have a very clear conscience about it...
Interesting quote.
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Peace,
Alcohol has some benefits but the bad outweighs the good in my opinion. It can be pleasant to be slightly intoxicated by alcohol. I drank until 2008.
However after a lapse of time I could fathom myself drinking a glass of wine, but never anything distilled. The days of playing John Wayne resting my back against an oak tree while drink whiskey straight from a bottle are over.
God bless you