Alcohol/intoxicants.
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Peace,
Alcohol has some benefits but the bad outweighs the good in my opinion. It can be pleasant to be slightly intoxicated by alcohol. I drank until 2008.
However after a lapse of time I could fathom myself drinking a glass of wine, but never anything distilled. The days of playing John Wayne resting my back against an oak tree while drink whiskey straight from a bottle are over.
God bless you
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Aoa
! Look around you and see what are these substances that do more harm than good alcohol nicotine, cocaine, heroin, cannabis (
Waiting for the 'non are specifically named in the Quran & I only take in non excessive amounts'. This seems to be the gist of the pro alcohol lobby.
Regards -
Do not exagerrate in your deen, Allah advises us...
there is also excesses in what some think is purity and is in effect self righteousness on their part, which leads to intolerance, extremism, bigotry and pride...
after all, even caliphs fell into the trap, when they decided to introduce corporal punishment for the drinking of alcohol, from 20 lashes to 80 lashes!!!
and indeed my conscience is clear...
Allah is my judge, not you...
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Peace,
Alcohol has some benefits but the bad outweighs the good in my opinion. It can be pleasant to be slightly intoxicated by alcohol. I drank until 2008.
However after a lapse of time I could fathom myself drinking a glass of wine, but never anything distilled. The days of playing John Wayne resting my back against an oak tree while drink whiskey straight from a bottle are over.
God bless you
Alcohol has some benefits but the bad outweighs the good in my opinion.
did you read the Quran, Allah says just that... so your opinion is correct...
I am not an alcohol evangelist, I just choose to drink it... and that is my right...
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Peace
'' Milk is very different from alcohol''.
And avoid is far from Forbidden alias Haram. Some people here seems to think he is smarter than Allah.
Peace
Please have the decency and the courage to refer to me directly - especially - if you are aiming such pithy comments . . . it is obvious . . . and makes you look a somewhat cowardly. Unnecessarily.
So what is the difference between "forbidden" and "avoid"?
"Forbid - refuse to allow (something)."
"Avoid - keep away from or stop oneself from doing (something)."
The net result is - that there is no difference other than the choice of words employed. Look - you didn't even bother to give an alternative explanation either. . . but rather chose to have a go at me.
It is not the question I am smarter than Allah Almighty . . . but I am a sight more smarter than you? Aren't I?
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Allah never said avoid Alcohol, He said avoid taghut, and avoid Satan's whispers...
That is manipulation of what the verse is saying
"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."
Please read with me - and then if you are reading the above verse differently then show exactly how.
stone alters , and divining arrows are = defilement]
This it refers back to defilement - and defilement refer back to intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows.
So the Almighty is asking us to avoid all of them - including - intoxicant.
and fermented milk contains alcohol...
Milk that he been fermented is something completely different from Milk. They are not the same thing at all.
your gut is full of alcohol, it is a by-product of the excretions of the yeast candida albicans...
Once again - evidence? Normal milk fed to babies and etc . . is NOT fermented alcohol.
stop moralising in matters you are just being self righteous about...
Vice versa - tit-for-tat. . . . back to you. And how are you any different?
and I for one used not to drink alcohol, but have been drinking occasionally for pleasure for quite some time now, red wine, and mead (wine made from pure honey) for the good that is in them, and avoiding excess, i.e. not getting drunk...
And what about it?
and have a very clear conscience about it...
and do not make haram what is not... this is a grievous sin...
And it is equally a grievous sin to make something lawful when it isn't. My bases for thinking that Alcohol is forbidden is the Quran verse of 590 and this is true for most Muslims and has been.
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Do not exagerrate in your deen, Allah advises us...
there is also excesses in what some think is purity and is in effect self righteousness on their part, which leads to intolerance, extremism, bigotry and pride...
after all, even caliphs fell into the trap, when they decided to introduce corporal punishment for the drinking of alcohol, from 20 lashes to 80 lashes!!!
and indeed my conscience is clear...
Allah is my judge, not you...
So, are you saying, the Caliphs - those who were closest to the Holy Prophet got it wrong?
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Alcohol has some benefits but the bad outweighs the good in my opinion.
did you read the Quran, Allah says just that... so your opinion is correct...
I am not an alcohol evangelist, I just choose to drink it... and that is my right...
On individual basis - you can do what you like . . .
However this affects wider society. If Muslims build a state and base it on Quran - and then introduce alcohol ban - you would have to follow all such laws.
A clear problem with talking about excess when talking about gambling and intoxicants - is that they do lead to excess by their very nature. They are addictive and they make one lose control - so the person ends up drinking more and more.
http//www.patient.co.uk/health/Alcohol-and-Sensible-Drinking.htm
Who sticks to these limits?
All known surveys I have read - most people according to what has been set down in that article - over drink.
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Indeed, the negative results of drinking far outweighs the positive ones. Now I'm talking about drinking alcohol, and not about other uses of alcohol. I find it ridiculous that people would prohibit use of alcohol in e.g. perfumes... I personally find that to extrapolate things out of context and into absurdity.
Anyhow, I believe there should not need to be such a elaborate discussion on where drinking alcohol (getting drunk) is prohibited, wise to avoid, or allowed, or whatever. Alcohol is a poison to the body. It should take no more than common sense, experience, observational skills, deductive thinking and self knowledge to understand that it is better to stay off the sauce. It has nothing to do which laws or rules. It's purely about cause and effect, and honesty.
Those who drink it to get drunk do it to escape the sober world for some time... to get a relief from some unconscious (or conscious) nagging feeling of unrest... to let go of certain inhibitions.. to become more relaxed. What happens though is that some people get very aggressive, do and say things they regret afterwards, and generally act very stupidly and ridiculously. And, that from which they sought relief, is not cured by drinking, it is just temporarily suspended, or hidden, so nothing positive is achieved. Rather, chances are great that negative things instead are accomplished. And those who deny that getting drunk is a way to escape yourself are indeed in denial. It's not only alcoholics that are drinking to escape... they are just in a more extreme stage. Getting drunk = Escaping yourself. Rarely do we admit this, simply since we don't know ourselves, though we think we do. Alcohol is also very tricky in that it is addictive. It doesn't really matter on what level it is addictive. Due to it's effects, it is easy to get stuck. I find it however amazing that people keep drinking despite all nasty symptoms of the hangover. While hung over many people vow to not drink again... but then they sit with the bottle a few days later like always. How do people forget so quickly? There must really be some powerful things going on behind the scenes, that make them forget the unpleasant hangovers. Perhaps it feels so good to get a relief from the inner hidden misery that the price of the hangover, and what not, is well worth it. The human being is funny.
The reason why we should avoid it is not just because "God said so". God just don't say things for no reason, for just testing people. We should avoid alcohol due to all the destructive things it in fact leads to... and also that we should not rely on temporary crutches to escape ourselves. Rather if we are unhappy, we should address the real causes of this. Resorting to alcohol for relief will effectively prevent us from finding cures and development in ourselves. Alcohol in this way will prevent our chances for progress and purification.
)
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The_Chimp,
Allah never wrote in The Quran avoid alcohol, in 590 avoid refers clearly to Satan, I explained that clearly in my initial post...
so your avoid rationale is useless...you are indeed self righteous, and want to show off that you are purer than pure... this is the pride that cast Satan out of the garden...
clean your motives, that will be better for your soul than preaching avoidance of alcohol...
and I pray that people like you never be allowed near the levers of power, just look at the messes in Afghanistan and most of the Arab world...
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@Zulf salam,
thanks for your input...
you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...
and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...
so as with those who advise not to drink it... good for you for not drinking...
my stand is I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...
now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...
as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...
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So, are you saying, the Caliphs - those who were closest to the Holy Prophet got it wrong?
Caliphs were humans, and so was Mohammad...
Caliphs were administrators, and erected themselves rulers of an Empire Allah bestowed on the Muslims...
and as in all Empires, the rulers ended up overstepping their remit, becoming dictators and cruel...
Islam came to free people from the tyranny of Man, and initially with Mohammad it did...
but the Caliphs from the Ummayads onwards decided otherwise, and became an authority to benefit themselves, and not the people they were supposed to guide...
prohibition of Alcohol was just a means to exert their power of control... in the higher ranks and in the establishment, it was freely consumed...
look at Saudi Arabia, it epitomises what the Caliphs ended up producing and promoting...
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@Zulf salam,
thanks for your input...
you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...
and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...
so as with those who advise not to drink it... good for you for not drinking...
my stand is I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...
now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...
as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...
See
no, it is not that. the question is whether one forbids oneself to drink for the social goal of prevebting those who are more vulnerable to fall into drinking, which is a social disease. what the environment does matters and helps the people or doesn't help. so again, that it is forbiden or not is zilch. if someone does not understand why one shuld abstain from drinking the fact that he canno find a magical word which says forbidden is not going to improve his soul at all.
we know fobidding alkohol by law, human or divine, is not going to stop people from drinking, only the conscious self interdiction by as many people as possible of such a harmful drug can help society in general to be rescued from its addiction and social anf familiar break ups and sufferin that it brings with it.
salaam
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Indeed, the negative results of drinking far outweighs the positive ones. Now I'm talking about drinking alcohol, and not about other uses of alcohol. I find it ridiculous that people would prohibit use of alcohol in e.g. perfumes... I personally find that to extrapolate things out of context and into absurdity.
Anyhow, I believe there should not need to be such a elaborate discussion on where drinking alcohol (getting drunk) is prohibited, wise to avoid, or allowed, or whatever. Alcohol is a poison to the body. It should take no more than common sense, experience, observational skills, deductive thinking and self knowledge to understand that it is better to stay off the sauce. It has nothing to do which laws or rules. It's purely about cause and effect, and honesty.
Those who drink it to get drunk do it to escape the sober world for some time... to get a relief from some unconscious (or conscious) nagging feeling of unrest... to let go of certain inhibitions.. to become more relaxed. What happens though is that some people get very aggressive, do and say things they regret afterwards, and generally act very stupidly and ridiculously. And, that from which they sought relief, is not cured by drinking, it is just temporarily suspended, or hidden, so nothing positive is achieved. Rather, chances are great that negative things instead are accomplished. And those who deny that getting drunk is a way to escape yourself are indeed in denial. It's not only alcoholics that are drinking to escape... they are just in a more extreme stage. Getting drunk = Escaping yourself. Rarely do we admit this, simply since we don't know ourselves, though we think we do. Alcohol is also very tricky in that it is addictive. It doesn't really matter on what level it is addictive. Due to it's effects, it is easy to get stuck. I find it however amazing that people keep drinking despite all nasty symptoms of the hangover. While hung over many people vow to not drink again... but then they sit with the bottle a few days later like always. How do people forget so quickly? There must really be some powerful things going on behind the scenes, that make them forget the unpleasant hangovers. Perhaps it feels so good to get a relief from the inner hidden misery that the price of the hangover, and what not, is well worth it. The human being is funny.
The reason why we should avoid it is not just because "God said so". God just don't say things for no reason, for just testing people. We should avoid alcohol due to all the destructive things it in fact leads to... and also that we should not rely on temporary crutches to escape ourselves. Rather if we are unhappy, we should address the real causes of this. Resorting to alcohol for relief will effectively prevent us from finding cures and development in ourselves. Alcohol in this way will prevent our chances for progress and purification.
If you put your trust in God and Islam - then the reason of ban of consuming alcohol is because of Quran.
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Allah never wrote in The Quran avoid alcohol, in 590 avoid refers clearly to Satan, I explained that clearly in my initial post...
so your avoid rationale is useless...You claim that in the verse 590 the reference is "clearly" to Satan - is neither clear nor correct. I have twice challenged this - no reply. Simply affirming your previous incorrect reading of Arabic text is not of much value - UNLESS you counter my argument.
In the verse 590 the pronoun refers back to Rijs and not to Satan.
you are indeed self righteous, and want to show off that you are purer than pure... this is the pride that cast Satan out of the garden...
Incorrect. That is you passing value judgment upon me . . . and I have not reciprocated this towards you. This is and ad hmoniem attack. All such attacks are logical fallacies.
clean your motives, that will be better for your soul than preaching avoidance of alcohol...
Your argument clearly does not stand up . . . so this desperate attempt at trying gain an upper hand by illogical means. See when you claimed the above . . . you merely projecting.
As to the avoidance of Alcohol - that is from the Quran.
and I pray that people like you never be allowed near the levers of power, just look at the messes in Afghanistan and most of the Arab world...
More personal attacks.
You have avoided answering any questions . . . but have turned it against me, personally. This is a sure sign that your arguments cannot stand up and your trying to give them some welly by illogical means.
Merit of the argument is in the quality of the argument itself. . . seeking credence by having a go at me will simply the inadequacy of your argument.
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@Zulf salam,
thanks for your input...
you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...
and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...
so as with those who advise not to drink it... good for you for not drinking...
my stand is I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...
now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...
as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...
Drinking as such does not make on a non-believer. No one claims that. And the almighty has forbidden alcohol from the Quran. You have made up quite a few things. When they were challenged - no answer.
If you are that confident . . . why do you feel the need to keep repeating - what you do? This debate is about whether Quran has forbidden Alcohol or not.
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Caliphs were humans, and so was Mohammad...
Caliphs were administrators, and erected themselves rulers of an Empire Allah bestowed on the Muslims...
and as in all Empires, the rulers ended up overstepping their remit, becoming dictators and cruel...
Islam came to free people from the tyranny of Man, and initially with Mohammad it did...
but the Caliphs from the Ummayads onwards decided otherwise, and became an authority to benefit themselves, and not the people they were supposed to guide...
prohibition of Alcohol was just a means to exert their power of control... in the higher ranks and in the establishment, it was freely consumed...
look at Saudi Arabia, it epitomises what the Caliphs ended up producing and promoting...
Prohibition of Alcohol did not start with Ummayds. The question put you was regarding the companions of Prophet Muhammad. It is the Prophet Muhammad - who banned it. We have ample historical data for the 3rd generation of Muslim society to show that Alcohol was considered prohibited. At the time of 3rd generation - that is pretty close to the Prophet Muhammad.
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you are a very stubborn and argumentative person, and Allah advises me that I do not carry on feeding your trolling tendency...
bye...
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@Zulf salam,
thanks for your input...
Salam to you too )
you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...
That's good, because I never had any such intention, and didn't insinuate anything such. Who am I to judge anyone else as believer or non-believer or anything else?
and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...
) Relax, I have not challenged your right to voice your opinion. Peace brother!
my stand is I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...
Fair enough. By the way, I never mentioned whether I drink much, a little, or nothing. I was voicing my opinion on the topic, which is independent from yours and mine drinking or not-drinking habits.
now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...
I agree with that more than you would realize.
as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...
Why would I do that?
Peace and cheers )