Alcohol/intoxicants.
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Indeed, the negative results of drinking far outweighs the positive ones. Now I'm talking about drinking alcohol, and not about other uses of alcohol. I find it ridiculous that people would prohibit use of alcohol in e.g. perfumes... I personally find that to extrapolate things out of context and into absurdity.
Anyhow, I believe there should not need to be such a elaborate discussion on where drinking alcohol (getting drunk) is prohibited, wise to avoid, or allowed, or whatever. Alcohol is a poison to the body. It should take no more than common sense, experience, observational skills, deductive thinking and self knowledge to understand that it is better to stay off the sauce. It has nothing to do which laws or rules. It's purely about cause and effect, and honesty.
Those who drink it to get drunk do it to escape the sober world for some time... to get a relief from some unconscious (or conscious) nagging feeling of unrest... to let go of certain inhibitions.. to become more relaxed. What happens though is that some people get very aggressive, do and say things they regret afterwards, and generally act very stupidly and ridiculously. And, that from which they sought relief, is not cured by drinking, it is just temporarily suspended, or hidden, so nothing positive is achieved. Rather, chances are great that negative things instead are accomplished. And those who deny that getting drunk is a way to escape yourself are indeed in denial. It's not only alcoholics that are drinking to escape... they are just in a more extreme stage. Getting drunk = Escaping yourself. Rarely do we admit this, simply since we don't know ourselves, though we think we do. Alcohol is also very tricky in that it is addictive. It doesn't really matter on what level it is addictive. Due to it's effects, it is easy to get stuck. I find it however amazing that people keep drinking despite all nasty symptoms of the hangover. While hung over many people vow to not drink again... but then they sit with the bottle a few days later like always. How do people forget so quickly? There must really be some powerful things going on behind the scenes, that make them forget the unpleasant hangovers. Perhaps it feels so good to get a relief from the inner hidden misery that the price of the hangover, and what not, is well worth it. The human being is funny.
The reason why we should avoid it is not just because "God said so". God just don't say things for no reason, for just testing people. We should avoid alcohol due to all the destructive things it in fact leads to... and also that we should not rely on temporary crutches to escape ourselves. Rather if we are unhappy, we should address the real causes of this. Resorting to alcohol for relief will effectively prevent us from finding cures and development in ourselves. Alcohol in this way will prevent our chances for progress and purification.
If you put your trust in God and Islam - then the reason of ban of consuming alcohol is because of Quran.
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Allah never wrote in The Quran avoid alcohol, in 590 avoid refers clearly to Satan, I explained that clearly in my initial post...
so your avoid rationale is useless...You claim that in the verse 590 the reference is "clearly" to Satan - is neither clear nor correct. I have twice challenged this - no reply. Simply affirming your previous incorrect reading of Arabic text is not of much value - UNLESS you counter my argument.
In the verse 590 the pronoun refers back to Rijs and not to Satan.
you are indeed self righteous, and want to show off that you are purer than pure... this is the pride that cast Satan out of the garden...
Incorrect. That is you passing value judgment upon me . . . and I have not reciprocated this towards you. This is and ad hmoniem attack. All such attacks are logical fallacies.
clean your motives, that will be better for your soul than preaching avoidance of alcohol...
Your argument clearly does not stand up . . . so this desperate attempt at trying gain an upper hand by illogical means. See when you claimed the above . . . you merely projecting.
As to the avoidance of Alcohol - that is from the Quran.
and I pray that people like you never be allowed near the levers of power, just look at the messes in Afghanistan and most of the Arab world...
More personal attacks.
You have avoided answering any questions . . . but have turned it against me, personally. This is a sure sign that your arguments cannot stand up and your trying to give them some welly by illogical means.
Merit of the argument is in the quality of the argument itself. . . seeking credence by having a go at me will simply the inadequacy of your argument.
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@Zulf salam,
thanks for your input...
you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...
and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...
so as with those who advise not to drink it... good for you for not drinking...
my stand is I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...
now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...
as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...
Drinking as such does not make on a non-believer. No one claims that. And the almighty has forbidden alcohol from the Quran. You have made up quite a few things. When they were challenged - no answer.
If you are that confident . . . why do you feel the need to keep repeating - what you do? This debate is about whether Quran has forbidden Alcohol or not.
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Caliphs were humans, and so was Mohammad...
Caliphs were administrators, and erected themselves rulers of an Empire Allah bestowed on the Muslims...
and as in all Empires, the rulers ended up overstepping their remit, becoming dictators and cruel...
Islam came to free people from the tyranny of Man, and initially with Mohammad it did...
but the Caliphs from the Ummayads onwards decided otherwise, and became an authority to benefit themselves, and not the people they were supposed to guide...
prohibition of Alcohol was just a means to exert their power of control... in the higher ranks and in the establishment, it was freely consumed...
look at Saudi Arabia, it epitomises what the Caliphs ended up producing and promoting...
Prohibition of Alcohol did not start with Ummayds. The question put you was regarding the companions of Prophet Muhammad. It is the Prophet Muhammad - who banned it. We have ample historical data for the 3rd generation of Muslim society to show that Alcohol was considered prohibited. At the time of 3rd generation - that is pretty close to the Prophet Muhammad.
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you are a very stubborn and argumentative person, and Allah advises me that I do not carry on feeding your trolling tendency...
bye...
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@Zulf salam,
thanks for your input...
Salam to you too )
you did not convince me that alcohol makes me a non-believer...
That's good, because I never had any such intention, and didn't insinuate anything such. Who am I to judge anyone else as believer or non-believer or anything else?
and it does not matter your opinion, you voiced it, this is a public forum, and I have as much right as you to voice my take on the matter...
) Relax, I have not challenged your right to voice your opinion. Peace brother!
my stand is I drink it, and I read the Quran, and the Bible, and do not feel guilty about any of it...
Fair enough. By the way, I never mentioned whether I drink much, a little, or nothing. I was voicing my opinion on the topic, which is independent from yours and mine drinking or not-drinking habits.
now let us be decent and accept what Allah has given us, freedom to make choices...
I agree with that more than you would realize.
as for the wider society, go and lobby for the re-introduction of prohibition as in the US 1920-1930's, and good luck to you for that...
Why would I do that?
Peace and cheers )
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you are a very stubborn and argumentative person, and Allah advises me that I do not carry on feeding your trolling tendency...
bye...
Yet - it is clear - the only person being "nasty" is you. I have not been and am not interested in you, personally. So what have I "trolled" on?
You have made a poor case . . . made a few things up. I asked for evidence. Instead just got personal abuse.
What is abundantly clear is that Alcohol is banned by Quran. But if picking on me makes you feel better . . . for sure.
However - your arguments? You couldn't even convince your own self.
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The "substance" is not prohibited, but being "intoxicated" is forbidden . . even 0.1% intoxication.
It is still . . intoxication.
Similarly, holding a knife is not prohibited . . but stabbing a person with a knife, is prohibited . . even if it only a scratch to the skin.
It is still . . assault.
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The "substance" is not prohibited, but being "intoxicated" is forbidden . . even 0.1% intoxication.
It is still . . intoxication.
Similarly, holding a knife is not prohibited . . but stabbing a person with a knife, is prohibited . . even if it only a scratch to the skin.
Khamr - is primarily reference to "intoxicating beverages" - those that are brewed/fermented.
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Salam to you too
That's good, because I never had any such intention, and didn't insinuate anything such. Who am I to judge anyone else as believer or non-believer or anything else?
Relax, I have not challenged your right to voice your opinion. Peace brother!
Fair enough. By the way, I never mentioned whether I drink much, a little, or nothing. I was voicing my opinion on the topic, which is independent from yours and mine drinking or not-drinking habits.
I agree with that more than you would realize.
Why would I do that?Peace and cheers
Peace bro,
a civil answer for a change...
thanks
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Yes and that's why I said . .
One could never know when he is 0.1% intoxicated . . but it is still intoxication.
Therefore, it is forbidden.
something fermented means khamr, sour milk is fermented milk...
and where did you get that ridiculous figure of 0.1%?
it is loss of control through enebriation ie the state of being drunk, "sukarah" that Allah forbids us to pray when in such a state...
if Allah clearly wanted to forbid something, He would say so ... He made it clear for the flesh of pork, and for stealing and fornication with corporal punishments...
so really, those who are trying to be purer than snow are just exaggerating in their system of faith, something Allah does indeed ask us not to do
"la taghlaou fi dinikum"... do not exaggerate in your faith...
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something fermented means khamr, sour milk is fermented...
But is not alcoholic. Bread is fermented - but not alcoholic. It is not "fermentation" that is forbidden.
it is loss of control through enebriation ie the state of being drunk, "sukarah" that Allah forbids us to pray when in such a state...
Interesting! Quran actually uses the word La Taqrabu - do not approach. If this can end up being "forbidness". . . then so can "to avoid".
if Allah clearly wanted to forbid something, He would say so ... He made it clear for the flesh of pork, and for stealing and fornication with corporal punishments...
He did. He said "Avoid". Then end result of avoidance would be that you never go near that thing - in other words it is forbidden.
For example
"That , and whoever honors the sacred ordinances of Allah - it is best for him in the sight of his Lord. And permitted to you are the grazing livestock, except what is recited to you. So avoid the uncleanliness of idols and avoid false statement,"
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Ijtanabu Rijs min al-Awathan.
Here no one will say that Idols are not forbidden.
so really, those who are trying to be purer than snow are just exaggerating in their system of faith, something Allah does indeed ask us not to do
"la taghlaou fi dinikum"... do not exaggerate in your faith...
Nasty indirect references to someone are STILL nasty indirect references to someone.
Isn't it telling - you have not been able to define what this "exaggeration" is.
It is clear that you are unable to handle criticism towards your position. Hence, rather than improving your argument; it is the reliance to the well versed way of pick on the person rather on their argument.
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stop the stubborness...
avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...
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Ijtanabu Rijs min al-Awathan.
that means avoid the abomination brought forth within using idols... not producing works of art that mullahs also exaggerated into forbidding...
exaggerating means exceeding what Allah proclaimed... you are exaggerating and stretching a commandment to make it fit within your intolerance narrative...
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why not stick to khamr, which means fermented...
I'm not speaking about "substance" (khamr) . . but the "consequence" (intoxication) . . the cause and effect . .
and the word "avoid", ie. meaning . . do not even approach of being in that situation
so what is intoxication ?
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stop the stubborness...
avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...
Saying
stop the stubborness...
Is simply pointless - and an illogical mean.
And evidence points that it is YOU who is stubborn. You are not able to counter my arguments - rather are intent on making a scene.
Look - I even invited you to explain this in particular
That is manipulation of what the verse is saying
"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."
Please read with me - and then if you are reading the above verse differently then show exactly how.
stone alters , and divining arrows are = defilement]
This it refers back to defilement - and defilement refer back to intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows.
So the Almighty is asking us to avoid all of them - including - intoxicant.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346768#msg346768
Rather than concentrating and explaining yourself - you went down the root of getting personal. In your wake - you have left question after question unanswered. . . but are trying to strong arm others to accept your views by being personal and somewhat abusive.
Isn't the right thing to do . . . to explain yourself clearly? And simply prove me wrong. Then if I am unable to answer you - this will become apparent. Just as it is apparent that you are not able to answer.
Thank you.
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I never used the word intoxication...
the thread starts with the title Alcohol/intoxicants, but I only covered the case for Alcohol...
why not stick to khamr, which means fermented...
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.
"They ask you about "Khamr"..."
This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.
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Interesting! Quran actually uses the word La Taqrabu - do not approach. If this can end up being "forbidness". . . then so can "to avoid".
Just thought of something.. call it speculation or whatever...
I guess we can see this phrasing "la taqrabu".. "don't come near"... as both telling us not to get covered/drunk by the khamr, that is, not to use/drink/smoke the substance... but not only that, but also not to come NEAR it. Possibly, at least in my imagination, it could be indicating that we should not come near such situation that promote one to get drunk. This could be the company of people that likely will insist you drink and similar environments that not only may tempt you, but also make it easy to fall for the temptation. It makes sense, and it would be wise to avoid such situations, regardless of what the quran says. We are also told not to sit among people who back stab and talk scrap and nonsense, until they change topic. Same thing there. We could sit quiet, but it is better to not be there at all (for several reasons).
Peace