Alcohol/intoxicants.
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stop the stubborness...
avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...
2230
Ijtanabu Rijs min al-Awathan.
that means avoid the abomination brought forth within using idols... not producing works of art that mullahs also exaggerated into forbidding...
exaggerating means exceeding what Allah proclaimed... you are exaggerating and stretching a commandment to make it fit within your intolerance narrative...
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why not stick to khamr, which means fermented...
I'm not speaking about "substance" (khamr) . . but the "consequence" (intoxication) . . the cause and effect . .
and the word "avoid", ie. meaning . . do not even approach of being in that situation
so what is intoxication ?
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stop the stubborness...
avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...
Saying
stop the stubborness...
Is simply pointless - and an illogical mean.
And evidence points that it is YOU who is stubborn. You are not able to counter my arguments - rather are intent on making a scene.
Look - I even invited you to explain this in particular
That is manipulation of what the verse is saying
"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."
Please read with me - and then if you are reading the above verse differently then show exactly how.
stone alters , and divining arrows are = defilement]
This it refers back to defilement - and defilement refer back to intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows.
So the Almighty is asking us to avoid all of them - including - intoxicant.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346768#msg346768
Rather than concentrating and explaining yourself - you went down the root of getting personal. In your wake - you have left question after question unanswered. . . but are trying to strong arm others to accept your views by being personal and somewhat abusive.
Isn't the right thing to do . . . to explain yourself clearly? And simply prove me wrong. Then if I am unable to answer you - this will become apparent. Just as it is apparent that you are not able to answer.
Thank you.
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I never used the word intoxication...
the thread starts with the title Alcohol/intoxicants, but I only covered the case for Alcohol...
why not stick to khamr, which means fermented...
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.
"They ask you about "Khamr"..."
This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.
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Interesting! Quran actually uses the word La Taqrabu - do not approach. If this can end up being "forbidness". . . then so can "to avoid".
Just thought of something.. call it speculation or whatever...
I guess we can see this phrasing "la taqrabu".. "don't come near"... as both telling us not to get covered/drunk by the khamr, that is, not to use/drink/smoke the substance... but not only that, but also not to come NEAR it. Possibly, at least in my imagination, it could be indicating that we should not come near such situation that promote one to get drunk. This could be the company of people that likely will insist you drink and similar environments that not only may tempt you, but also make it easy to fall for the temptation. It makes sense, and it would be wise to avoid such situations, regardless of what the quran says. We are also told not to sit among people who back stab and talk scrap and nonsense, until they change topic. Same thing there. We could sit quiet, but it is better to not be there at all (for several reasons).
Peace
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stop the stubborness...
avoid is for the tools Satan uses to manipulate people, inebriation is one such tool... you are confused...
2230
Ijtanabu Rijs min al-Awathan.
that means avoid the abomination brought forth within using idols... not producing works of art that mullahs also exaggerated into forbidding...
exaggerating means exceeding what Allah proclaimed... you are exaggerating and stretching a commandment to make it fit within your intolerance narrative...
that means avoid the abomination brought forth within using idols... not producing works of art that mullahs also exaggerated into forbidding...
That means worshiping Idols is forbidden. Nice and simple and clear.
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the_chimp... (you seem to really be now)
as I said in my first answer to you, avoiding Satan, his whispers, and the tools he uses to manipulate is what it to be avoided...
inebriation and consuming alcohol are two different things...
and avoiding is not the same as not coming near to, you are confusing matters and contexts...
and I am currently enjoying a Bordeaux Superior red Wine while I am writing this
I can picture you frothing at the mouth like these idiotic mullahs when they are in the middle of a heated preach...
you crack me up dude... thanks for making me laugh...
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Just thought of something.. call it speculation or whatever...
I guess we can see this phrasing "la taqrabu".. "don't come near"... as both telling us not to get covered/drunk by the khamr, that is, not to use/drink/smoke the substance... but not only that, but also not to come NEAR it. Possibly, at least in my imagination, it could be indicating that we should not come near such situation that promote one to get drunk. This could be the company of people that likely will insist you drink and similar environments that not only may tempt you, but also make it easy to fall for the temptation. It makes sense, and it would be wise to avoid such situations, regardless of what the quran says. We are also told not to sit among people who back stab and talk scrap and nonsense, until they change topic. Same thing there. We could sit quiet, but it is better to not be there at all (for several reasons).
Peace
there is no such a phrase as lataqrabu alkhamr...
there is lataqrabu alzinah...
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Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.
"They ask you about "Khamr"..."
This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.
If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance
Is this interpretation valid ?
Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?
Therefore . .
I'm not speaking about "substance" (khamr) . . but the "consequence" (intoxication) . . the cause and effect . .
and the word "avoid", ie. meaning . . do not even approach of being in that situation
so what is intoxication ?
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Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.
"They ask you about "Khamr"..."
This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.
how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...
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If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance
Is this interpretation valid ?
Is it logical ?
Therefore . .
sorry, no offense, but I will stop here wasting my time, you clearly have not got a clue what you are talking about...
I am closing the browser now...
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how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...
See ? You do agree with me that it is not reasonable to interpret it as a substance. .
Could you say to Allah to learn English ?
If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance
Is this interpretation valid ?
Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?
Therefore it is not reasonable and your understanding/interpretation of the word is clearly inaccurate . .
It sounds ridiculous . . (unless if it refer to intoxication, or the act of making Khamr itself)
The prohibition is not about the "substance" (khamr). . but about the "consequence" (intoxication) cf. the word "gambling" in , ie not substance
Therefore . . what is intoxication ?
What is the cause . . and effect . . and when does it starts ?
and . .
the word "avoid", ie. meaning . . do not even approach of being in that situation
Is it possible that Allah prohibit the act of making Khamr ? or being intoxicated ? or do not even approach the substance of Khamr ?
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peace Abdul-Hadi
sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...
Greetings and Peace, all group
It is best to avoid extremes.
To avoid all alcohol, one would have to avoid many good things--fruit juice, bread, etc. Even then, there is endogenous alcohol production--some people even have a medical condition where they get drunk from endogenous fermentation.
To avoid all intoxicants is impossible. Water is an intoxicant. Oxygen is an intoxicant. To claim that these are not intoxicants is making an argument that alcohol is only an intoxicant when it leads to intoxication.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. GOD is Pardoning, Forgiving.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are an affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering GOD and from the contact prayer. Will you be deterred?
6145 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me to be unlawful for any eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig - for it is foul - or what is a wickedness, dedicated to other than GOD." But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
732 Say "Who has made unlawful the nice things that GOD has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
4715 Is the example of the Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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See ? You do agree with me that it is not reasonable to interpret it as a substance. .
Could you say to Allah to learn English ?
Therefore it is not reasonable and your understanding/interpretation of the word is clearly wrong . .
The prohibition is not about the "substance" (khamr). . but about the "consequence" (intoxication) cf. the word "gambling" in , ie not substance
Therefore . . what is intoxication ?
What is the cause . . and effect . . and when does it starts ?
a substance cannot be intoxicated because a substance does not ingest...
I and you can get intoxicated by an intoxicating substance...
the word intoxicant is a misnomer for alcohol... alcohol becomes toxic only when ingested in very large quantities...
a toxic substance kills you...
nicotine is a toxic substance...
well I am glad this thread has become very lively
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a substance cannot be intoxicated because a substance does not ingest...
I and you can get intoxicated by an intoxicating substance...
the word intoxicant is a misnomer for alcohol... alcohol becomes toxic only when ingested in very large quantities...
a toxic substance kills you...
nicotine is a toxic substance...
So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .
During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?
the middle . . or at the end . . ie. the effect/consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?
and secondly . .
What does the prohibition (avoid) is related to ?
Whether it is . . .
- Avoid the substance of Khamr ? Is it logical ?
- Avoid the making of Khamr ? Is it logical ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by Khamr ? Is it logical ?
1? 2? or 3? or else ?
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the_chimp... (you seem to really be now)
Did not understand this.
as I said in my first answer to you, avoiding Satan, his whispers, and the tools he uses to manipulate is what it to be avoided...
You said - I answered. It is not avoiding "Satan". It clearly is not - It is avoid the "Rijs". Repeating the same thing without answering objective raised - is not impressive - it does not further debate . . . and it is sign of being "stubborn".
inebriation and consuming alcohol are two different things...
And you only become drunk BY consuming alcohol.
and avoiding is not the same as not coming near to, you are confusing matters and contexts...
Yet - I showed you "confusing" the usage as it were.
What does avoid mean? To stay clear of something. And what is "do not come near" - if not to stay away?
Please explain the actual difference? Do not just claim they are different.
and I am currently enjoying a Bordeaux Superior red Wine while I am writing this
And?
I can picture you frothing at the mouth like these idiotic mullahs when they are in the middle of a heated preach...
you crack me up dude... thanks for making me laugh... )
Petty abuse gets you nowhere. It is simply illogical to target the person rather than his arguments. Kind of shows you have run out. . .
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If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance
Is this interpretation valid ?
Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?
Therefore . .
It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.
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how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...
Now you are really getting worse. . . more trivial. Flinging another baseless accusation. Where in this quote is "substance" mentioned?
Sweetheart - you are answering to the wrong person . . .
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.
"They ask you about "Khamr"..."
This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.
Tut! Tut!
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It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.
I'm identifying the prohibition . . and according to what he agrees .
So . we let him decide, according to whatever he wishes . . and see whether his reasoning sounds logical or ridiculous . .