Fight them until they convert?
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Wakas' article also mentions there is a difference between mumin and muslim. The FM link given says, "The Submitter is not required to accept the Quran, or any of the previous Books, or any of the messengers?He simply a) accepts One God, and b) does good works."
I really find it difficult to digest this. So basically, you needn't do Salat and Zakat? And you need not accept the Koran?
How can that be...when the Koran repeatedly says that those who do not accept the book will be punished. And that righteousness involves believing in past books, angels, prophets etc.
I really can't find any basis for this in the Koran. It seems more like some modern day fallacy which is based on a selective reading of the Book. The Koran makes no such explicit claims. I find no difference between believing and submitting.
The verse about the nomads saying "we submit" can be understood even if believing = submitting.
Peace
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Peace,
Salat or zakat is nothing new for The Book (Quran) so why this confusion? And it is still the issue of using the traditional way of seeing these words.
But you ought to accept The Book as divine scripture although it takes not long to absorb its Knowledge and Wisdom. You could however live without it as long as you accept God's system and Judgement. The Torah (teachings) of Moses or the Gospel to Jesus are enough to live by. The famous ten commandments say a whole lot. Justice and fair judgement is the key and absolute devotion to God alone.
God bless you
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Wakas' article also mentions there is a difference between mumin and muslim. The FM link given says, "The Submitter is not required to accept the Quran, or any of the previous Books, or any of the messengers?He simply a) accepts One God, and b) does good works."
I really find it difficult to digest this. So basically, you needn't do Salat and Zakat? And you need not accept the Koran?
How can that be...when the Koran repeatedly says that those who do not accept the book will be punished. And that righteousness involves believing in past books, angels, prophets etc.
I really can't find any basis for this in the Koran. It seems more like some modern day fallacy which is based on a selective reading of the Book. The Koran makes no such explicit claims. I find no difference between believing and submitting.
The verse about the nomads saying "we submit" can be understood even if believing = submitting.
Peace
I agree with MofF "And it is still the issue of using the traditional way of seeing these words."
That is the issue you are having I think. You may find it interesting many have discussed the difference between muslim/mumin including Traditional "scholars". There are even books on it, e.g. this one.
I recommend actually studying The Quran with regards to this important concept, before dismissing it.
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Peace Man of Faith.
There is still no sense in killing them unless they perform contact prayer. That is zealotry and dogma. But if you change the meaning to what it really means of establishing a link to God and works with the purification of their Judgement.
Can you force someone to establish a link to the god? Wouldn't this contradict 2256 in a similar way as forcing someone to perform a ritual?
In my view salat does not refer to the god in this context. If we take salat to mean something like bond or link (as implied in Wakas' article for example) then it probably refers to the broken contracts, doesn't it?
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Peace Bookish.
Wakas' article also mentions there is a difference between mumin and muslim. The FM link given says, "The Submitter is not required to accept the Quran, or any of the previous Books, or any of the messengers?He simply a) accepts One God, and b) does good works."
I do not agree with this view, because being a muslim has nothing to do with believing in the god in the first place. As explained at many places throughout the forum and also in this article by brother ayman http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part2.pdf muslims are simply peacemakers. Being a peacemaker does not imply believe as pointed out in 4914-15. But a believer must necessarily be a peacemaker.
The verse about the nomads saying "we submit" can be understood even if believing = submitting.
So how can you do it?
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Why would they surrender and then plot to kill? When the enemy surrenders, it means they have given up.
Why should you go to the extent of demanding "submission to God" from them? If they propose peace, that's reason enough for you to spare them. They can simply offer peace and then happily go about their own ways of religion.
You are almost suggesting that we keep fighting them until they give up idol-worship. Why? Or are you suggesting that they cannot be sensitive and peace-loving people?
The question remains is there a way to explain these verses if salat = prayer and there is no compulsion in religion?
Such verses are easy ammunition for people to criticize the Koran, and quite rightly so...because an explanation is wanting.
You need to get it that the context of Surah 9 Taubah is a context of fierce war from non-believers against a small group of believers, and the commandments of the Surah concerns these two groups only, in that specific context in time, place and history...
so you cannot generalise it, or complain about it in any other context...
as you are not of that time...
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Peace,
It is not the bond to God that you force this people to establish but the consciousness of God's System and Judgement. The Book "nags" about upholding or establishing a system of justice and this is the inclination with God's command to fight these people until they quit their evil deeds. Not to dogmatically and zealously implement a ritualistic system on them that they must observe contact prayer. How is this Muslim state be able to control that these repenters observe their traditional prayer anyway. The verse is lacking reason and logic with the traditional interpretation in many ways. And salat and zakat overall do not add up if you add logic in the analysis of the discourse.
People simply accept it unquestionably until now because it has been interpreted that way from when someone invented this meaning.
But at the same time salat could possibly be understood with prayer as its partial meaning but then you have to count in that it is communication with the Lord or a general consciousness/awareness which the word implies.
Another issue is that humans are obsessed with objects so we idolize things from right to left and a ritual could possibly be an idolatry when we cause an objectification of our service to God. In other words these words are very straightforward but man makes them objects through its idolatrous nature.
God bless you
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I do not agree with this view, because being a muslim has nothing to do with believing in the god in the first place.
Sorry brother but I find such a claim too bizarre and unsubstantiated. It also goes against the very message of the Koran.
Being a peacemaker AND believing in God and the Last Day still has some support in the Koran. Because the Koran ALSO mentions that people who reject God and the Last Day - their deeds will be in vain.
How can a muslim not have anything to do with God?
5156 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
Peace brother
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Hi all,
Although the Koran promotes fairness, justice and forgiveness, the following verses really stand out from the rest, and apparently go against the premise of "No compulsion in religion..."
95 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
911 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
839 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
929 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
(from Pickthall)
How can people who do not believe (and are at war) be expected to establish Salat and Zakat?
Although other verses on war can be explained by considering the context, the above verses seem to defy explanation.
I'd be glad if someone could explain them.
Thanks...
You have to read the history and how pagans treated Muslims at the start of the message.
Islam is a way of life which was far different than the way of life that pagans used to live at that era.
Pagans fought the message of Islam which was a message of peace to save the poor,free slaves,free women,save baby females who were buried alive,elimination of prostitution ..etc.
So it was a war between good and evil and then the evil has to die for the good ones to be saved.
The prophet converted that community from ignorance to a powerful Islamic empire at that era when the rest of the world was still in darkness.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvNcU7bHgLs
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ihf_oPvlg
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Salaam bookish and all.
It depend for who inteprete that verses.
Actually that verses was used by some terrorist groups to judge their action, if u want to know.To intepret Scripture we must use wisdom thinking, not by hatred/one-sided prespective or pick one verse only and create hasty conclusion.
All that verses, related well with the rule of war
2190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, God does not love the aggressors
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This is also an uncomfortable verse
556 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud/stern/hard/haughty/severe/firm towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
None of the words are good words.....
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This is also an uncomfortable verse
556 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud/stern/hard/haughty/severe/firm towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
None of the words are good words.....
why are None of the words are good words?
also, it is not O you who believe, it is rather O you who have believed... think about the difference...
and look at the context in which the verse was revealed...
finally, being a Believer entails being tested, this is not a beauty conquest based only on looks... it is based on character, resolve, and big responsibility...
Allah is addressing Believers... -
I happened to go over the surrounding verses. The following verses (which come after the verses we are discussing) do seem to provide a context....
95 If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
96 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
Somehow the two verses seem to clash with each other...perhaps I'm missing something.
Also, this
861 And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.
I guess it does not really mean to say that you keep fighting them until they convert...though the use of Salat and Zakat is interesting.
But it really is easy ammunition for someone who wants to take them out of context and paint a picture that's not really there...
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This is also an uncomfortable verse
556 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud/stern/hard/haughty/severe/firm towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
None of the words are good words.....
That is what happened with Jews when they turned away from the real message of Islam and they distorted the religion and named it Judaism and we may realize that by Baha'ullah who have changed his own religion to Baha'i faith instead of Islam.
James 47
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.Romans 103
For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.Recently Islam has been distorted and that was foretold by the prophet but still some believers will keep attached to the real teaching of Islam and the prophet called them the strangers because there life will be hard in a time which holding in Islam is like holding an ember.
?The person who sticks tightly to my Sunnah, at the time when the rest of my Ummah will be in a state of discord & disunity ? will be like one who is holding on with his bare hands to ember.?
Watch the video to realize that we are living and observing the approaching of the end of times.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu5py5rUCQk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBQiCpjY49E
The prophet while sick, asked the people to be gathered for his final speech(sermon) shortly before his death.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Xc1MfX9X8
In this state of weakness for believers, Allah will send a believers not among Arabs but they will come from the east mainly from Khorasan that no army can win a war against them.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvEPmOOpg4w
Peace
