Pregnancy breastfeeding and weaning : confusion in 'A Monotheist translation'

khal

Your argument contains some fallacies and contradicts 233

Weaning is something that is decided after mutual agreement by the parents and concerns breastfeeding (233). It is also the actual understanding among the medical boards including Pediatric societies and the WHO. It may be be brutal after the recommended two years of breastfeeding but scientifically not recommended. A gradual weaning with reduction in frequency of breastfeeding and replacement by either infant formula or other animal's milk (usually cow's milk) is highly recommended
Read again 4615 And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him (hamalathu) with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing (wahamluhu) and weaning (wafissaluhu) lasts thirty months

In Arabic, the word hamala means to carry/ to bear/ to sustain/ to support. We can easily understand that the first occurrence of the word hamalathu refers to pregnancy, the mother carrying the fetus in the womb until birth, and it appears before birth in the verse. In my opinion the second occurrence of the word wahamluhu has nothing to do with gestation as it has been understood. It is associated with weaning and weaning is when we decide to stop breastfeeding. So the second bearing is the charge of breastfeeding. You will also notice that in the verse it is situated after birth. It is now clearer second bearing (breastfeeding) and weaning lasts for 30 months - breastfeeding for 24 months and a gradual weaning of 6 months

Mazhar

Scientific thresholds According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive. It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500g (17.6 ounces) to survive. A baby's chances for survival increases 3-4% per day between 23 and 24 weeks of gestation and about 2-3% per day between 24 and 26 weeks of gestation. After 26 weeks the rate of survival increases at a much slower rate because survival is high already.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

Wakas

Your argument contains some fallacies and contradicts 233

Firstly, 233 is not even the right verse. Secondly, you showed no fallacies nor contradiction. To prove it, please quote exactly what I said is a fallacy, e.g.

"my quote here"
It is a fallacy because.... (insert your evidence here)

"my quote here"
It contradicts 2233 because... (insert evidence here)

Here is your entire argument

The second bearing is in my opinion related to weaning...

In my opinion the second occurrence of the word wahamluhu has nothing to do with gestation...

khal

Brother Waqas, Salaam
Thank you, you rectify it yourself it's of course 2233

Your quote contains a fallacy
I quote I did some cross-reference and it seems the bearing is referring to carrying the burden, so it likely at least refers to when a bump is visible, and this about 2-4 months for most.

The bearing is carring the burden.... when a bump is visible That's a joke. Women carries the burden for nine months now and at the time of revelation. BTW I would be interested to know which cross reference you made? I have never heard of women carrying burden only for two months during my lectures in obstetrics in medical college. May be you are aware of a new study.

Your argument shows a contradiction to 2233.
You say bearing is only 2-3 months when a bump is visible. and bearing + weaning is thirty months. So I understood that you started the weaning at 6th month pregnancy. That totally contradicts 2233 where weaning starts after 2 years of breastfeeding

This is MY OPINION just using Quran, what I learned as a health professional and rationality God has endowed me. Yes my arguments rely on my opinion as yours depend on your opinion ( like bearing being a 'visible bump&#039. God knows best.

Wakas

peace khal,

Thank you for the reply. That is more like it, i.e. constructive.

Your confusion partly stems from misunderstanding what I wrote, so let me clear that up first. I said, quote

I did some cross-reference and it seems the bearing is referring to carrying the burden, so it likely at least refers to when a bump is visible, and this about 2-4 months for most.

By the underlined part above, I meant the bump becomes visible 2-4 months after conception (i.e. when egg is fertilised), for most. Thus, 9 months (full-term pregnancy average) minus 2-4 months, we get 5-7 months wherein the mother is visibly carrying a burden. Oh look, the midpoint of 5-7 is 6 months )

I just realised in 654 it mentions waiting 3 months to determine pregnancy or not. Fits perfectly with the above.

So, what does "HML" mean with regard to women being pregnant?
"from conception to birth" as you imply,
or
what I implied "visibly carrying a burden, i.e. visibly pregnant"

Let's get to it...

Firstly, logic and practicality. I am NOT of the view that in those days someone would say to a woman they are carrying a burden in the first few weeks of pregnancy for example, because firstly the mother is unlikely to know she is pregnant nor would there be any signs of it. Thus this term was likely used when the mother was visibly pregnant or knew she was pregnant, i.e. known to be carrying a burden. This is not from conception, this comes some time after.

Linguistically, the word stems from "to carry (e.g. a burden)". I doubt many would consider the start of pregnancy a burden or demonstratably carrying something, as it does not show or restrict a woman in any way, or very few that I know of. Please note, I am not saying it can never be used to mean "pregnancy".

You said

Women carries the burden for nine months now and at the time of revelation. BTW I would be interested to know which cross reference you made? I have never heard of women carrying burden only for two months during my lectures in obstetrics in medical college. May be you are aware of a new study.

By "cross-reference" I was referring to Quran, e.g.

...she carries a burden/HML light, so/then continued with it, so when she became heavy...

Note how HML is qualified by "light", implying by itself it is not light or it can be light/heavy and needs qualifying. The verse goes onto say "it" with no qualification, then she gets heavy. Giving us the stages of HML light, normal, she becomes heavy.

There may be other verses also. My point is that it could refer to visibly pregnant, i.e. visibly carrying a burden. This occurs 2-4 months after conception for most women.

That is one way to explain the verses.

You opted for an alternative way, which is perhaps theoretically possible (I dont know, I haven't studied it) but my initial point was you may find this view/option interesting, in terms of resolving confusion.

To repeat, my view has no fallacies nor contradiction.

mmmm

In my opinion it is simple and no contradiction at all. In the ayat 4615 it says weaning (word used is fisaluhu ) 30 months don't include breastfeading becouse you don't want your baby to stop breastfeeding until you complete it ( 2233 and the word used here is yurdiane) so you start weaning the baby after you completed the breastfeeding which is after first 24 months. So the longest period of breastfeeding could be 3 years and 9 months where in the period of 1 year and 9 months child would gradually stop breadfeeding.
This really makes sense from the attachment parenting point of view becouse in that period of 1 year extra children mostly quit on their own without the stress ( which I know how it is difficult with my own child, unfortunately I figured out this after I made her stop nursing at 2 yrs).

huruf

There is the question of nafadh ar-ruH which is not at the moment of conception but time after.

Salaam

khal

Salaam, I think that your conception of weaning is totally misunderstood. For example weaning from a psychoactive drug, you stop the drug and generally done gradually by decreasing the dose. Concerning infants, weaning is understood in the medical community as the passage from brest milk to either infant formula or another animal's milk. The Quran recommends a complete breastfeeding for 24 months and weaning after that.

If you understand the second bearing as the last six months of pregnancy, i suppose you start the weaning at birth. That does not make sense. How can you wean a baby when you haven't even started breastfeeding.

Here's an extract from an article I've written on breastfeeding and will perhaps help you to understand these concepts

Basic concepts and Recommendations of the World health Organization
Pregnancy in humans
Pregnancy is the fertilization and development of one or more offspring in the woman?s uterus. Usually childbirth occurs after a 9 month?s gestation.
Breastfeeding
Breastfeeding is the feeding of an infant or young child with breast milk directly from human breasts rather than using infant formula. Under modern healthcare, human breast milk is considered the healthiest form of milk for babies. It promotes the health of both mother and infant and help to prevent disease. For example, babies have an immature immune system and necessitate the antibodies developed by the mother that they get through breast milk. Non-breastfeeding significantly increases risk for a large number of acute and chronic diseases including lower respiratory tract infection, ear infection, bacteremia, bacterial meningitis, urinary tract infection, necrotic enterocolitis according to the American Academy of pediatrics. In fact, scientific research has found numerous benefits of breastfeeding for the infants with regard to general health, growth and development. Longer breastfeeding has also been associated with better mental health throughout childhood and into adolescence. Alongside the benefits for infants, it has been found that breastfeeding reduces risk of breast and ovarian cancer later in life for mothers and helps to return to the pre-pregnancy weight faster and lowers rates of obesity.
The WHO (World Health Organization) recommends exclusive breastfeeding for around six months of the baby?s life. This should start within one hour of birth and continued only on breast milk for 6 month after which infants should receive nutritionally adequate and safe complementary foods while breastfeeding continues up to two years or beyond. Mashed solid foods should be introduced as a complement to breastfeeding which SHOULD NOT be decreased when starting on solids. After the two years, a weaning process may begin till the end to breastfeeding. The WHO goes even further stating that if these recommendations are followed, 220 000 child lives would be saved each year*.
To summarize 1) Exclusive breastfeeding up to six month
2) Solid foods are introduced at 6 months. No decrease in breastfeeding.
3) Breastfeeding should be continued up to two years or more
*In ?The Global Strategy on infant and Young Adult? WHO
Weaning
Weaning is a stage during which breastfeeding is stopped. This may be brutal but scientifically not recommended. The benefits of gradual weaning are known today and the actual recommendation is to make it a process over several weeks or months. The frequency of breastfeeding is gradually decreased and replaced by either infant formula or animal milk which is usually cow?s milk.

khal

Breastfeeding in the Quran is advised for infants up to two years (2233) and after that, a weaning period starts (3114) till a complete cessation within six months so that the total period of breastfeeding (second bearing after birth) and weaning is 30 months (4615).
This is completely in phase with the recommendations of the WHO after expert evaluation

We understand that breastfeeding take two years
weaning is in two years (fi aamayni) after breastfeeding and NOT take two years as translated in the Montheist translation

Noon_waalqalami

Breastfeeding in the Quran is advised for infants up to two years (2233) and after that, a weaning period starts (3114) till a complete cessation within six months so that the total period of breastfeeding (second bearing after birth) and weaning is 30 months (4615).
This is completely in phase with the recommendations of the WHO after expert evaluation

We understand that breastfeeding take two years
weaning is in two years (fi aamayni) after breastfeeding and NOT take two years as translated in the Montheist translation

Peace -- more like 4615 add 1 & 3

carry his = 6 lunar cycles to birth
breastfeeding = two solar years after birth
separation his < 24 lunar cycles after breastfed

2233 and the mothers yur'i'na/breastfeed they children theirs awlayni/around two (solar)

3114 wafisluhu/and separation his in mayni/years two (lunar)

4615 waamluhu/and carry his wafisluhu/and separation his thirty shahran/cycle of (lunar)

khal

carry his = 6 lunar cycles to birth

Peace Noon
The 6 lunar cycles do not correspond to anything scientific. As far I know, women carry for 9 months. You must certainly be aware that for many women, the first three months can be very difficult to bear and I don't understand why the first three months are not artificially counted just to make the count right. Secondly that does not make sense to say carry + separation is thirty months instead of carry + breastfeeding is thirty months (if your understanding of the 'second carry' is right)

Noon_waalqalami

carry his = 6 lunar cycles to birth

Peace Noon
The 6 lunar cycles do not correspond to anything scientific. As far I know, women carry for 9 months. You must certainly be aware that for many women, the first three months can be very difficult to bear and I don't understand why the first three months are not artificially counted just to make the count right. Secondly that does not make sense to say carry + separation is thirty months instead of carry + breastfeeding is thirty months (if your understanding of the 'second carry' is right)

Peace khal, we need to first confirm exact meaning each word being used.

2233
and the mothers yur'di'na/breastfeed they children theirs hawlayni/around two full two
to who intended that finish al-radaata/the breastfeed

so if desire both fisalan/separation of through compromise from them both and consultation
so not blame on them both and if want you that tastardiu/may breastfeed they children yours

3114 wafisaluhu/and separation his in mayni/years two (lunar)

4615 wahamluhu/and carry his wafisaluhu/and separation his thirty shra/lunar cycle of

hawlayni?
two solar revolutions/years
two pregnancy duration
two breastfeed phases

wafisaluhu?
breastfeed + weaning?

mayni?
two years solar/lunar?

Therefore, it could be ...

carry his = 10 lunar cycles conception to birth
breastfeed = 10 lunar cycles x 2 rotations/phases
separation his = 20 lunar cycles < two lunar years

Noon_waalqalami

BTW, shr meaning lunar cycle or full-moon can be determined from PERF 558 doc.

4615... and carry his and separation his thirty shra/lunar cycle of

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html

http//oi62.tinypic.com/15egt1x.jpg

shr/lunar cycle Jumada (dry parched land) the first from year two and twenty (i.e. year 22) and written his/by son Hadidu

mmmm

Women BF for two years and wean for 22 months after BF is completed. It's simple and since father should finance mother even if they are divorced that is why the weaning period is defined so financing couldn't be abused, in my opinion.