1 Intro + 113 Surahs???

Hizbullah

Salam All,

Very interesting discovery. It seems that some ancient Quran found do not consist of the AlFateha. I do not know how far its true.

ONLY ALLAH KNOWS

Novice

15.87
And certainly We have given you seven of the oft-repeated (verses) AND the grand Quran.

There is a separation between the Quran and the Al-Fatiah (the seven oft-repeated (verses)),

With this in mind that would mean Surah Baqarah, currently 2nd Surah should be the first
(As Al-Fatiah is an introduction, a disclaimer.)

There is evidence to support this theory.

The first is what is mentioned in Baqarah itself when it says ?Bisuratin?

2.23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant, ?then produce a Surah the like thereof? and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful

This would be the first Surah. (So Surah 1.23 instead of 2.23)

And this would be the 10th Surah (So Surah 10.13 instead of 11.13)
11.13
?Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged Surahs like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.?

Produce ?a Surah? in the first Surah and bring ?ten? Surahs in the 10th Surah

There is also something else that supports this claim.

Maybe its a coincidence but??.

The 10 forged ayats appears in 11.13,
the coincidence is 1+113 Surahs, is it linked?

NOTE This separation could mean the Al-Fatiah is the proper Shahada for Islam.

Peace brother
Your claim is based on 223 and 1113 but what you say about 1038

1038
Sahih International
Or do they say , "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful."

Jafar

NOTE This separation could mean the Al-Fatiah is the proper Shahada for Islam.

You could probe further with

Why should there be a 'shahada'?
Who came up with the idea of a 'shahada'?

To me there's no such thing as "proper shahada"..

Reee

Well, there is a logical mistake here

And this would be the 10th Surah (So Surah 10.13 instead of 11.13)
11.13
?Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged Surahs like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.?

Produce ?a Surah? in the first Surah and bring ?ten? Surahs in the 10th Surah

The 10 forged ayats appears in 11.13,
the coincidence is 1+113 Surahs, is it linked?

First you want to change 1113 to 1013 but then you argue with the same 1113 (which to your opinion should be 1013).

khal

Salaam Notexceling, I support this idea for four years now. Good to know that I am not the only crazy guy supporting this 'non sense'. But when we dare to look into it more thoroughly, we will see that this is not complete non sense

Firstly, it's strange that a 7 verses chapter is put at the beginning of the Quran. The Quran is normally arranged from long surahs to short ones. Even if the order according to the length of surahs is not exactly respected, the general trend is there.
Now when we read Al fateha, it is clear that it is a prayer that we address to God seeking for guidance. God cannot ask himself for guidance. It is evdent that Al Fateha is from man to God. However, in the Quran, there are many prayers like the famous rabbanas. But you will notice that the prayers in the Quran are always followed by 'Say' 'He said'...etc. There is no Qul in Al Fateha.
The answer to this prayer (asking for guidance) came in the form of a book. Just read the first few words of Al Baqara

In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful. ALM. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.

We can see that the guidance is from Al Baqara to An Nas

I think you rightly said that the seven repeated (1587 in the conventionnal numbering) refers to Al Fateha. Even if this can be qualified as mere speculation (as any other hypothesis), I personally cannot see to what else the 'seven repeated' can refer. As far as I Know, Al Fateha is the only thing composed of seven parts repeated by millions of muslims worldwide. We also have strong historical support for that understanding... even if I know that this cannot be taken as an argument here. It is a known fact that early muslims also called that chapter 'Umm-ul Quran' How could it be the 'mother' of the Quran and part of the Quran itself. Do not misread me. I am not saying that this chapter is not revealed by God. Just that God himself made a distinction between Al Fateha ahd the rest of the other surahs compiled in the Quran. 1587 says that they are both from God. I see it more like an official application form for the guidance like the one you get from the authorities for an application for a passport for example - the comparaison may seem a bit farfetched.
From the above, we can conclude that Chapter 1 is al baqara and there are in all 113 chapters. Even if the numbering is an addition and was not in the first manuscripts, it is obvious that an intrinsical numbering is present as the Quran is divided into chapters and verses. In the tenth chapter the challenge is to bring tens surahs. Elsewhere the challenge is to bring a verse, a surah, a Quran. Why ten surahs specifically here?
I've noticed that there are other 'coincidences ' with the chapter number like 11 stars in the eleventh chapter but this is not systematic and no rule can be deduced from that. However there is a particular chapter that has caught my attention. It is Al Hadid the Iron chapter no 57 in conventional numbering but actually the 56th chapter. 56 is the mass number (number of protons and neutrons) of the most common isotope of iron (96%).
Furthermore the word al hadid appears in the 26th verse in a surah comprising of 30 verses ((Bismallah is logically counted as the first verse as a) Bismillah is counted as a verse in al Fateha b) I think that one of the reason why there is no basmallah in chapter 9 is precisely a sign from god to stress that the basmallah is an integral part of the chapters elsewhere where it is present c) after analysing the most ancient manuscripts, basmallah is in the same script as the other verses and only a dot separate it from the second verse like any other two consecutive verses of the same manuscript)) 26 is the atomic number (number of protons) of iron.
What is more surprising is the relation between the position of the word al hadid and the atomic mass of iron which is 55.847 Al hadid is the 13th word of the 26th verse, a verse that has 28 words. A simple mathematical calculation will give us the position of the word al hadid which is 55 + 25/30 + 1/30.12/28 = guess what 55.847!!!

Of course, all what has been said has no particular importance concerning the good deeds and the faith in God that is expected from us. Personally I see this as a sign that The Quran is in order and has been protected by God in that order. God wanted the Quran to be in that order and has not let that to the whims and desires of the Prophet, Uthman or any other.

noble

Salam Bros, Khal...

can you explain better 55 + 25/30 + 1/30.12/28

I did not get it...

khal

Peace the Nabster The quran is divided in surahs and verses and in each verse there is a certain number of words. To understand it well, see the quran as composed of 113 boxes (surahs)on top of each other, each box has got a variable number of drawers (each representing a verse in the surah) and in each drawer a variable number of sheets of paper (each representing a word of the verse)

Now if we want to see where is the word al hadid, not in other 3 places where the word appears in the Q but this particular one found in Surah Al Hadid that by which ' God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers in the unseen', we see that it appears in 5626 (5725 in conventional numbering but I've explained why i've arrived at this new numbering) and that it is the thirteenth word of this 26th verse comprising of 28 words. Lets get back to our boxes drawers and sheets of paper. If you want to reach the 13th sheet of the 26th drawer of th 56th box, you will have to take out

55 boxes to reach the 56th box
25 drawers to reach the 26th drawer but remember its only part of a box that contain 30 drawers (30 verses)

so till now you have taken out (55 + 25/30) box

and 12 sheets of paper to reach the 13th sheet in a drawer that contains 28 sheets that is 12/28 of a drawer and here a drawer is 1/30 of a box so you will have to remove 12/28*1/30

In total you will have to remove 55 + 25/30 + 12/28*1/30 = 55.847

Bender

Peace the Nabster The quran is divided in surahs and verses and in each verse there is a certain number of words. To understand it well, see the quran as composed of 113 boxes (surahs)on top of each other, each box has got a variable number of drawers (each representing a verse in the surah) and in each drawer a variable number of sheets of paper (each representing a word of the verse)

Now if we want to see where is the word al hadid, not in other 3 places where the word appears in the Q but this particular one found in Surah Al Hadid that by which ' God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers in the unseen', we see that it appears in 5626 (5725 in conventional numbering but I've explained why i've arrived at this new numbering) and that it is the thirteenth word of this 26th verse comprising of 28 words. Lets get back to our boxes drawers and sheets of paper. If you want to reach the 13th sheet of the 26th drawer of th 56th box, you will have to take out

55 boxes to reach the 56th box
25 drawers to reach the 26th drawer but remember its only part of a box that contain 30 drawers (30 verses)

so till now you have taken out (55 + 25/30) box

and 12 sheets of paper to reach the 13th sheet in a drawer that contains 28 sheets that is 12/28 of a drawer and here a drawer is 1/30 of a box so you will have to remove 12/28*1/30

In total you will have to remove 55 + 25/30 + 12/28*1/30 = 55.847

Salaam,

Can you do the same trick with the word most translators translate as gold, for example 391?

Salaam,
Bender

Bahman

God wanted the Quran to be in that order and has not let that to the whims and desires of the Prophet, Uthman or any other.

noble

Peace
thanks Bro
I got it now.
amazing! ma sha Allah!

Peace the Nabster The quran is divided in surahs and verses and in each verse there is a certain number of words. To understand it well, see the quran as composed of 113 boxes (surahs)on top of each other, each box has got a variable number of drawers (each representing a verse in the surah) and in each drawer a variable number of sheets of paper (each representing a word of the verse)

Now if we want to see where is the word al hadid, not in other 3 places where the word appears in the Q but this particular one found in Surah Al Hadid that by which ' God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers in the unseen', we see that it appears in 5626 (5725 in conventional numbering but I've explained why i've arrived at this new numbering) and that it is the thirteenth word of this 26th verse comprising of 28 words. Lets get back to our boxes drawers and sheets of paper. If you want to reach the 13th sheet of the 26th drawer of th 56th box, you will have to take out

55 boxes to reach the 56th box
25 drawers to reach the 26th drawer but remember its only part of a box that contain 30 drawers (30 verses)

so till now you have taken out (55 + 25/30) box

and 12 sheets of paper to reach the 13th sheet in a drawer that contains 28 sheets that is 12/28 of a drawer and here a drawer is 1/30 of a box so you will have to remove 12/28*1/30

In total you will have to remove 55 + 25/30 + 12/28*1/30 = 55.847

khal

Brother bender, this does not work for gold copper or any other metal or element found in the Quran. You will notice that iron is also mentionned 4 times in the Quran and of course only work for one. I think you are confusing with the theory of the submitters who find 19 everywhere and want to set a mathematical code. There is no code but only signs that the Book is the Truth.
If you find it a 'trick' i'll advise you 'An introduction to mathematical philosophy' by Bertrand Russell if you are not aware of the principles behind Mathematics and see if mathematics rely on tricks.

Bender

Brother bender, this does not work for gold copper or any other metal or element found in the Quran. You will notice that iron is also mentionned 4 times in the Quran and of course only work for one. I think you are confusing with the theory of the submitters who find 19 everywhere and want to set a mathematical code. There is no code but only signs that the Book is the Truth.
If you find it a 'trick' i'll advise you 'An introduction to mathematical philosophy' by Bertrand Russell if you are not aware of the principles behind Mathematics and see if mathematics rely on tricks.

Salaam,

With backwards reasoning one can "prove" everything he wants. One does not need to read 'An introduction to mathematical philosophy' to do this and to understand this.
And sure it works most of times only in 1 occasion, because the method was fine tuned only for 1 "important" result. So the probability that the "trick" will work for other occasions is very small.

For me it would be only a discovery if a method is repeatable for all occasions, then I would call it a discovery instead of a trick.

Salaam,
Bender

noshirk

15.87
And certainly We have given you seven of the oft-repeated (verses) AND the grand Quran.

There is a separation between the Quran and the Al-Fatiah (the seven oft-repeated (verses)),

With this in mind that would mean Surah Baqarah, currently 2nd Surah should be the first
(As Al-Fatiah is an introduction, a disclaimer.)

There is evidence to support this theory.

The first is what is mentioned in Baqarah itself when it says ?Bisuratin?

2.23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant, ?then produce a Surah the like thereof? and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful

This would be the first Surah. (So Surah 1.23 instead of 2.23)

And this would be the 10th Surah (So Surah 10.13 instead of 11.13)
11.13
?Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged Surahs like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.?

Produce ?a Surah? in the first Surah and bring ?ten? Surahs in the 10th Surah

There is also something else that supports this claim.

Maybe its a coincidence but??.

The 10 forged ayats appears in 11.13,
the coincidence is 1+113 Surahs, is it linked?

NOTE This separation could mean the Al-Fatiah is the proper Shahada for Islam.

Salaam

i am sad to remark that i have the same position as bender towards numerological arguments (11.13 and 1+113).
arguments about "10 th sourate" and "ten sourates" is interesting.

However, there is two remarks about fatiha.
first it is clear for a reader that it is "prayers" who are speaking in that sourate and not Allah. Fatiha is a clear prayer and not a "preach".

Second Bismillah seems to be included in the sourate. that's a particularity that worth a particular thinking.

Peace

Bender

Salaam

i am sad to remark that i have the same position as bender
Peace

Salaam,

rotfl

Salaam,
Bender

Bahman

I think you are confusing with the theory of the submitters who find 19 everywhere and want to set a mathematical code.

There is no code but only signs that the Book is the Truth.

Simple to understand- Impossible to imitate

Bahman

We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran.

Notexceling

Guys for me Al-Faitah importance is it explains Bismillahin detail
please refer to my other post.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606192.msg346408#msg346408

marifhaq

To,My dear Bender,
In Saudi Arabia,there is a quran complex in the city of Madina,its site on internet,has many pictures of old qurans,go to this site via google and download pictures of many old quran that have no surah fatiha at the beginning of quran,instead they begin with surah baqarah as first surah.Surah fatiha was later added by some pios scholars because of its beautiful wording,I am avaiable for any help, just send me an email,thanks

Notexceling

I actually thought it could also refer to "Ha" and "Miim"

15.87
And certainly, We have given you seven of the oft-repeated and the Quran Great.

Surah 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46

These 7 are the only Surahs to begin with Ha-Miim.

Maybe?????

Sidenote
Ha and Miim also appear at the end of Ta respectively

Ha
= Ta Ha

Miim
= Ta Sin Miim (twice)

Sidenote2
Ha and Miim also appear in combinations

Ha
= Kaf Ha Ya Ain Sad

Miim
= Alif Lam Miim (6 times),
= Alif Lam Miim Ra
= Alif Lam Miim Sad

Sidenote3
They never appear individually

Filtered all Ha-Miim Surahs with only words that contain Ha-miim

401 Ha Meem. hha-meem
407 bear yamilna
407 (the) praises biamdi
407 (by Your) Mercy ramatan
407 (of) the Hellfire. l-jami
408 the All-Wise. l-akmu
409 You bestowed Mercy on him. raim'tahu
4012 So the judgment fal-uk'mu
4018 intimate friend ammin
4048 has judged akama
4055 (the) praise biamdi
4065 All praise (be) l-amdu
4072 the boiling water; l-ammi
4075 be insolent. tamrana
4080 you are carried. tu'malna

411 Ha Meem. hha-meem
412 the Most Gracious, l-ramni
412 the Most Merciful, l-rami
4112 with lamps bimaba
4123 and you have fa-abatum
4132 (the) Most Merciful." ramin
4134 intimate. ammun
4139 (is) surely the Giver of life lamu'y
4142 (the) All-Wise, akmin
4142 (the) Praiseworthy. amdin
4147 bears tamilu
4148 place of escape. main
4150 mercy ramatan
4154 encompassing. muun

421 Ha Meem. hha-meem
423 the All-Wise. l-akmu
425 (the) praise biamdi
425 the Most Merciful. l-ramu
428 His Mercy. ramatihi
4210 then its ruling fauk'muhu
4216 their argument ujjatuhum
4224 And Allah eliminates wayamu
4228 His mercy. ramatahu
4228 the Praiseworthy. l-amdu
4235 place of refuge. main
4248 Mercy, ramatan
4251 Most Wise. akmun

431 Ha Meem. hha-meem
434 full of wisdom. akmun
4317 (to) one of them, aaduhum
4317 for the Most Gracious lilrramni
4319 (of) the Most Gracious, l-ramni
4320 the Most Gracious, l-ramnu
4332 (the) Mercy ramata
4332 But (the) Mercy waramatu
4333 in the Most Gracious bil-ramni
4336 (of) the Most Gracious, l-ramni
4345 the Most Gracious l-ramni
4363 with wisdom bil-ik'mati
4381 the Most Gracious lilrramni
4384 (is) the All-Wise, l-akmu

441 Ha Meem. hha-meem
444 wise, akmin
446 As Mercy ramatan
4442 Allah has mercy. raima
4442 the Most Merciful. l-ramu
4446 (of) scalding water. l-ammi
4447 (of) the Hellfire, l-jami
4448 (of) the scalding water. l-ammi
4456 (of) the Hellfire, l-jami

451 Ha Meem. hha-meem
452 the All-Wise. l-akmi
4516 and the wisdom wal-uk'ma
4520 and mercy waramatun
4521 (in) their life mayhum
4521 they judge! yakumna
4525 their argument ujjatahum
4526 gives you life, yu'ykum
4530 His mercy. ramatihi
4536 (is) all the praise, l-amdu
4537 the All-Wise. l-akmu

461 Ha Meem. hha-meem
462 the All-Wise l-akmi
468 the Most Merciful. l-ramu
4612 and a mercy. waramatan
4612 for the good-doers. lil'mu'sinna
4615 Carried him amalathu
4615 And (the) bearing of him waamluhu
4620 your life aytikumu
4627 surrounds you awlakum