The 5? times of tasbih

ths

Peace to everyone,

I've posted this before but didn't receive any responses, so I thought I'd post it again because I think it's quite important.

20130 mentions around 5 times in a day that tasbih should be made. It is important that God never says that tasbih is a timed requirement (kitaban mawqutan) as it does with the salah. However - these same terms are the same terms as used for salah.

20130

This verse commands Muhammad to glorify God 5 times in a day.

Qabla tuloo3 al-shams before the rising of the sun. Fajr
Qabla ghuroobihaa before it's setting. Maghrib
Min 2aanaa2 al-layl - of the hours of the night. Isha
Wa 2a6raaf al-nahar this is often translated as "the two ends of the day". That's how I have understood it all this time, as indicating Fajr and Maghrib.

Now this is a problem because in 11114 we are told to perform salah at the two ends of the day, and a portion of the night

I, and many others, take this verse as talking about Fajr and Isha (sunset, which is called maghreb today). The word 'taraf' is in dual case, which indicates 2 ends of the day

In 20130, however, it says 'atraaf', as in more than 2 ends of the day.

• So what is atraaf al-nahar?

• How is it different from sunrise and sunset?

• Is 'atraaf al-nahar' perhaps a summary of the 3 periods mentioned in the verse? That would be the most logical explanation if it didn't mention aanaa' al-layl, because the night isn't really a part of the day (nahaar).

Ibn Kathir interprets this verse as talking about the 5 daily prayers -

qabla tuloo3i l-shams - fajr

qabla ghuroobihaa - Asr

min anaa' al-layl - Isha

Atraaf al-nahar - Dhuhr and Maghreb

Needless to say, I don't agree with his tafsir here. But I'm struggling to come up with a believable one myself

David_Saidi

Peace be upon you

20130 mentions around 5 times in a day that tasbih should be made. It is important that God never says that tasbih is a timed requirement (kitaban mawqutan) as it does with the salah. However - these same terms are the same terms as used for salah.

It's "kitaban mawqutan", yes this is the problem.
I believe Kitaban (pescribed) mawqutan (times) in 4103 is the salat's appointed time protocol.
But til now people still confused with many theories for which one is the right/fixed mawqutan in 4103.

The question Is tasbih part of salat?

So what is atraaf al-nahar?
How is it different from sunrise and sunset?

I believe the first end of day is gadat ()
Gadat or guduwat means "early mornings"

Proof

7205

2436

And the second end of day (nahr) is asyl ( ) means late afternoon/evening

Proof 725, 2436, 3342

GODsubmitter

OK gentlemen, would you please be so kind to use the English words for us who do not speak Arabic, because we might have no idea what are you talking about.
After all, I understand that Qur'an is for the whole of creation, and for the whole of humanity, I often wonder how is it meant to be understood if even the Arab speaking people have discrepancies and confusion in understanding it.

Thank you

ths

Salaam Godsubmitter,

I think people have started using the arabic terms alone because there is always such a massive argument about the word used as translation! I know I do because I don't want to have the topic sidetracked by tangential arguments regarding what salah is. But for the sake of this discussion let me translate salah as prayer, and tasbih as glorification. If anyone disagrees with these translation please start a new topic to discuss that. I'm open to different translations but want to focus on the timings specifically for now.

Salaam David, very interesting!

I've always written off ghuduwwi and all these terms as just synonyms for "morning" and "evening". Now I have to take a closer look at them.

The question Is tasbih part of salat?

I would say that Salah always includes Tasbih, but Tasbih isn't always done during Salah

One really interesting note that I've stumbled on recently is that the angels are said to do tasbih night and day, whilst mankind is told to do tasbih in the mornings and evenings, and occasionally at night

Angels/Controllers night and day - 2120, 4138

Muslims morning and evening - 3342, 2436, 20130, 341, 4055, 5039, 489, 1911

Muslims night - 5040, 5249

So it seems that tasbeeh and salah are indeed correlated and meant to be performed at sunrise and sunset and a part of the night, just like salah.

My current understanding is that many many synonyms are used for "dawn" and "evening" for salah and tasbih, and that God specifies these in 5039 when we are told that they are specifically before the rising of the sun, and before it's setting.

Dawn - 7eena taquum 5248-49, adbaar al-nujoom 5248-49, bukratan 7625-26, qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi 5039-40, bil-as7aari 5116-18, qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi 20130, atraaf al-nahaar 20130, quraan al-fajr 1778-79, al-ibkaar 4055, 7eena tusbihuun 3017-18, salat al-fajr 2458

Evening - aseela 7625-26, qabla 'l-ghuroob 5039-40, qabla ghuroobihaa 20130, atraaf al-nahaar 20130, dulook il-shamsi 1778-79, al-3ashiyyi 4055, tarafay 'l-nahaari 11114, 3ashiyyan 3017-18, salat al-isha 2458

Night - al-layli 731-7, min al-layli 5248-49, min al-layli 7625-26, min al-layli 5039-40, min al-layli 5116-18, min 2aanaa2 al-layli 20130, ghasaq al-layli 1778-79, min al-layli 1778-79, zulfan min al-layli 11114, adna min al-layli 7320,

But the problem is that 20130 messes everything up! It mentions at least 5 timings, more likely more than that because "a6raaf al-nahar" (sides of the day) refers to more than 2 sides of the day.

So the verse mentions sunrise and sunset and a part of the night, but then continues "and at the ends of the day (more than 2), so that you may attain to happiness"

So how many "ends" are there to a day??

So far I think that the best explanation is that "ends of the day" are qualifiers, or synonyms of what came previously in the verse, and that we must understand "nahar" here not as the sun-lit part of the day, but as a "day" in the sense of a 24-hour period.

So be patient regarding what they say, and glorify the praiseworthiness of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting and of the hours of the night, so glorify, and the (many) ends of the day, so you may attain satisfaction

I think the "wa" (and) at the end is not an actual "and". If I recall my hazy highschool grammar lessons to which I never paid any attention, the waaw can sometimes be read differently.

I googled it, and this was the first hit.

I think this may be a case of number 7 under waaw al-3aa6ifah ( &#1577 - ie the "and" of the synonym, where the "and" is not a different thing but a synonym for the previous terms. They give the example of 1286, although it's not the greatest example in my opinion. Corpus Quran also agrees that it's a waaw al-3aa6ifah, but doesn't specify which one from the 8 or more types ...

Also, I need to check whether "nahar" can be interpreted as a 24-hour day. My first impression is no, but the English word "day" can certainly mean both the sunlit period before darkness, and the part that you are awake in regardless of whether it's sunny outside or the sun has set.

David_Saidi

OK gentlemen, would you please be so kind to use the English words for us who do not speak Arabic, because we might have no idea what are you talking about.
After all, I understand that Qur'an is for the whole of creation, and for the whole of humanity, I often wonder how is it meant to be understood if even the Arab speaking people have discrepancies and confusion in understanding it.

Thank you

Thanks for reminder, GodSubmitter.
Quran Arabic is using ancient dialect, hence even nowaday Arabs cannot quickly understanf it.
Relation between Quranic Arab n modern Arab is like modern and medieval english language.

I would say that Salah always includes Tasbih, but Tasbih isn't always done during Salah

Agree.Gloryfy can be done outside salat too.

Angels/Controllers night and day - 2120, 4138

Muslims morning and evening - 3342, 2436, 20130, 341, 4055, 5039, 489, 1911

Muslims night - 5040, 5249

The subject in 2120 and 4138 is not angel/malayka

I see phrase "night and day" is not a schedule, proof

2120 They glorify in the night and the day, they do not cease (yafturuun)
4138 glorify Him night and day, and they never despair. (yas amuun)

By following that two green phrases, I see if they do tasbeeh not scheduled night and day, but night until day.
I intepreted the verses , if the believer must gloryfy the God day until night/all days and never stopped to do it.

This verses is one of the main proof if tasbih is not just a merely ritual, but commitment/act of closeness to God.

So far I think that the best explanation is that "ends of the day" are qualifiers, or synonyms of what came previously in the verse, and that we must understand "nahar" here not as the sun-lit part of the day, but as a "day" in the sense of a 24-hour period.

I follow Waka's advice in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606315.msg348057#new

I think the "wa" (and) at the end is not an actual "and". If I recall my hazy highschool grammar lessons to which I never paid any attention, the waaw can sometimes be read differently.

I agree if "wa" is not just simply means "and" in the Koran.
The mutual example is verses like 2238, the word "wa" before assalati al wusthaa,

or 343

So how many "ends" are there to a day??

For this, I'm still stuck for many centuries ) and still examine further.

GODsubmitter

Thank you gentlemen.

Peace

Wakas

• So what is atraaf al-nahar?

• How is it different from sunrise and sunset?

• Is 'atraaf al-nahar' perhaps a summary of the 3 periods mentioned in the verse? That would be the most logical explanation if it didn't mention aanaa' al-layl, because the night isn't really a part of the day (nahaar).

Ibn Kathir interprets this verse as talking about the 5 daily prayers -

qabla tuloo3i l-shams - fajr

qabla ghuroobihaa - Asr

min anaa' al-layl - Isha

Atraaf al-nahar - Dhuhr and Maghreb

Needless to say, I don't agree with his tafsir here. But I'm struggling to come up with a believable one myself

Here is my study wherein I discuss the above in detail
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Mazhar

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gifTime Bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance The Key to the door of success

Sociality is the fundamental characteristic-dimension of the created realm, matter and life both. However, the Man needs to be given training and skills required for functioning successfully in the society. The par excellent social activity is the socialization of the Subject with the Lord-King-Sovereign. The affectionate Sovereign is he who affords opportunities to his subjects to be in his presence occasionally for sometime for paying homage and seeking blessings of him. The subjects gain strength, feel of security and confidence by being in the House of the Sovereign. It becomes subject's pride.

We as social beings living in societies and states are well aware of the protocols of Subject-Lord contact. Timings are determined by the Lord. The Subject is required to follow the prescribed dress code and manners of speech and gestures while in the premises of Lord.

Universe is the State of the Sustainer Lord of all the created realm and we are the resident subjects of it. The Sustainer Lord, Allah the Exalted has prescribed and made it mandatory for us to contact Him everyday at intervals. This is called in ArabicAs-Salaat The time bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance.

We will study and discuss it confining ourselves within the Grand Qur'aan.

Basic perception and meanings infolded in the Root and
The point in time in human history when was prescribed and ordered to be institutionalized.
Later generations in timeline discarded it. It was re-institutionalized by the elevated Universal Messenger.
It is a prerequisite for recognition as brother in Islam
It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day
Preparatory protocols for its performance; and Prohibition when not to perform it.
It is Gesture-speech, highest communicative dynamism Sublime submission of servitude and allegiance;
Be always mindful for performing As-Salaat; and just peep in the Hell-Prison to listen its dwellers.

Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance The Key to the door of success