Rashad Khalifa & Mansur, were they friends or have they worked together ?
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Peace,
Here is the answer you may be looking for from Ahmad Mansour's article published in 2007
"At the end of 1987 I was sent to prison. When I came out, I decided to immigrate. I took with me all my unpublished papers and writings in two big cases and left to America in January 1988. I was a guest of Rashad Khalifa, who utilized my hardship and declared himself a messenger of God. He asked me to support him. I left him and escaped from his mosque. " http//www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=2048
Regards,
Layth
Do you know the exact duration of Mansour's imprisonment?
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Peace,
In 1987 I was in Turkey and continuing my snail-mail communication with Rashad. He was sending me his monthly 4-page bulletin, Muslim Perspective. Through the bulletin, I learned about Subhi Mansour and his joining the Masjid Tucson... Rashad was very happy that Subhi made the courageous decision and joined his group. Rashad supported him in many ways and let him stay in one of his apartments with full accommodation... Later, he would feel betrayed by Subhy. As it seems, Subhy felt differently. When I met Rashad first time in Tucson (198, he considered me as a sort of replacement ) But, he was hurt by Subhy's sudden departure.
Then, I had the opportunity to spend a year with Rashad, and about 17 years after that I met Subhy in two conferences I have organized. My personal impression of Rashad was categorically different than of Subhy. Rashad's character was solid, and his insight and understanding of the Quran was very impressive. Subhy's expertise is in history and I think he has done a better job than Sunni historians.
I do not wish to delve in details, but I will share a few observations Subhy is innumerate and does not appreciate the philosophical implications of the mathematical system in the Quran. This is not a subjective observation, but it is an obvious fact about him. In one of our meetings in Dallas, to establish MPJP, where about 20 prominent muslims participated, he could not accept others talking in turn. At one point he interrupted the participants in anger, reminding them that he was "a shaikh from al-Azhar" and demanded respect. This and a few other observations have given me all the needed background information to explain why he could not stay in Masjid Tucson for more than a few months.
But, again, I am perhaps comparing apples and oranges. Regardless, Subhy Mansour is a brave and wise scholar who was able to get out of the established box and dare to challenge them through his scholarly work. No human is perfect. Some of his ideas or demeanor might go against ours and even annoy us, but he deserves our support. He also needs to take care of his health, as I am trying, and stay away from unhealthy diet. He is needed for Egypt and other Arabic speaking countries.
In nutshell Rashad not only appreciated math, but he went beyond. Towards the last days of his life, he was so carried away by it he resembled a modern Pythagoras ) Compare it to Subhy who does not even care about composite numbers let alone prime ones!
Rashad's impact on modern Quranic movement is underestimated. Many of those who viciously attack him are unaware of the fact that many of the ideas and arguments used to defend the Quran alone and refutations of hadiths, originated from Rashad's dedicated study of the Quran as a sincere seeker of truth. I am surprised that some Turkish people do not even know Rashad's name, but they have received the message from a friend of mine who received it from me. We should not focus on Rashad or exaggerate him like some among Submitters do, but we should also beware of tendency of unfairly and unknowingly attacking and insulting a courageous monotheist.
Peace,
Ediptwitter @edipyuksel
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of truth. (1736; 10100; 3917-18; 4153; 4221; 6114-116; 1036; 12111; 20114; 217; 3528; 3829). -
Peace,
In 1987 I was in Turkey and continuing my snail-mail communication with Rashad. He was sending me his monthly 4-page bulletin, Muslim Perspective. Through the bulletin, I learned about Subhi Mansour and his joining the Masjid Tucson... Rashad was very happy that Subhi made the courageous decision and joined his group. Rashad supported him in many ways and let him stay in one of his apartments with full accommodation... Later, he would feel betrayed by Subhy. As it seems, Subhy felt differently. When I met Rashad first time in Tucson (198, he considered me as a sort of replacement ) But, he was hurt by Subhy's sudden departure.
Then, I had the opportunity to spend a year with Rashad, and about 17 years after that I met Subhy in two conferences I have organized. My personal impression of Rashad was categorically different than of Subhy. Rashad's character was solid, and his insight and understanding of the Quran was very impressive. Subhy's expertise is in history and I think he has done a better job than Sunni historians.
I do not wish to delve in details, but I will share a few observations Subhy is innumerate and does not appreciate the philosophical implications of the mathematical system in the Quran. This is not a subjective observation, but it is an obvious fact about him. In one of our meetings in Dallas, to establish MPJP, where about 20 prominent muslims participated, he could not accept others talking in turn. At one point he interrupted the participants in anger, reminding them that he was "a shaikh from al-Azhar" and demanded respect. This and a few other observations have given me all the needed background information to explain why he could not stay in Masjid Tucson for more than a few months.
But, again, I am perhaps comparing apples and oranges. Regardless, Subhy Mansour is a brave and wise scholar who was able to get out of the established box and dare to challenge them through his scholarly work. No human is perfect. Some of his ideas or demeanor might go against ours and even annoy us, but he deserves our support. He also needs to take care of his health, as I am trying, and stay away from unhealthy diet. He is needed for Egypt and other Arabic speaking countries.
In nutshell Rashad not only appreciated math, but he went beyond. Towards the last days of his life, he was so carried away by it he resembled a modern Pythagoras ) Compare it to Subhy who does not even care about composite numbers let alone prime ones!
Rashad's impact on modern Quranic movement is underestimated. Many of those who viciously attack him are unaware of the fact that many of the ideas and arguments used to defend the Quran alone and refutations of hadiths, originated from Rashad's dedicated study of the Quran as a sincere seeker of truth. I am surprised that some Turkish people do not even know Rashad's name, but they have received the message from a friend of mine who received it from me. We should not focus on Rashad or exaggerate him like some among Submitters do, but we should also beware of tendency of unfairly and unknowingly attacking and insulting a courageous monotheist.
Peace,
Ediptwitter @edipyuksel
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of truth. (1736; 10100; 3917-18; 4153; 4221; 6114-116; 1036; 12111; 20114; 217; 3528; 3829).I think that Subhy also wants to be the Sheikh of the Koranist Islam. When he started his website he faced problems as many views emerged that was different from his. I don't think he was expected all those Koranist coming over to his website with different interpretations than his. He also seemed a little behind in some areas. He used to delete the comments and later even banned some members, I being one of them. He is advertised in the Egyptian press as the leader of the Quraniyoon. Yet most Koranist have never heard of him. Subhy seems to me never wanted Egyptians to know anything about the movement and presented himself to the liberal elites as the leader of the Koranist Islam. I think what happened with Subhy was that he was not aware of how much the Koranist message has spread and how advanced some interpretations have become. He assumed that it was still the old Rashad Koranist Islam. The internet seemed to have caught him by surprise.
I think Rashad's biggest contribution was th 19 code. He also had some theological contributions. But Rashad made some mistakes as he was influenced to some degree by Wahhabi theology which he applied for himself. He also like Subhi did not want to touch the 5 prayers because he saw it as taboo. However the Koranist Islam moved on.
The problem with Subhy and Rashad was that they moved too fast and held strong views they were forced to defend later. They did not understand that the Koranist persuasion requires continous evaluation and re-evalation of Koranic interpretations. Its a continous process. The two of them somewhat isolated themselves from other Koranist interpretations. We know its impossible to understand many verses of the Koran by your own thought. This is not a reseach oriented Islam but a debate oriented Islam.
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I wish to verify what you said about "He also like Subhi did not want to touch the 5 prayers because he saw it as taboo"
I understand from what you wrote that both Rashad & Mansour continued this practice.
Can you please direct me to some links from both authors doing those claims ?
Thank you very much.
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I wish to verify what you said about "He also like Subhi did not want to touch the 5 prayers because he saw it as taboo"
I understand from what you wrote that both Rashad & Mansour continued this practice.
Can you please direct me to some links from both authors doing those claims ?
Thank you very much.
Well Subhy only writes in Arabic most of the time. He basically took the same format as Rashad did. They both believe that the 5 prayers were handed down from Arbaham to the Meccans and they were praying that day when the Koran came down (verse 8.35). They say this is the reason why the Koran did not explain the 5 prayers and how to pray them since the Meccans already knew.
http//www.shieldedbyprayer.org/the-principles-of-contact-prayers-by-dr-rashad-khalifa.html
Subhy has a website with many articles and there are other Koranist writers there who contribute weekly. But all in Arabic
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In nutshell Rashad not only appreciated math, but he went beyond. Towards the last days of his life, he was so carried away by it he resembled a modern Pythagoras
He used hadith to remove verses and corrupt the book. In nutshell infatuated with number similar to Pythagorean cult although they idolized 10 and allegedly killed one of their own for divulging the square root of two.
At least they knew their stuff while most proponents of nineteen would fail a math class in elementary probability and when exposed asked to show proof they always flee into the internet bushes.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596759.msg293685#msg293685
9129
19 letters beginning of verse to including AllahPeace
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He used hadith to remove verses and corrupt the book. In nutshell infatuated with number similar to Pythagorean cult although they idolized 10 and allegedly killed one of their own for divulging the square root of two.
False allegations. Rashad did use hadith, but did not rely on hadith to reject the non-Quranic verses. His use of hadith was justified, since if there were such a historic addition to the manuscript (not the Quran!), people like you would justifiably would challenge "Where is the smoke of this fire in the history? If such a crime committed in the past, there should have been controversy and even fights over this!" THINK before you criticize.
Second, you are twisting my reference to Pythagoras. First, Rashad and his supporters were one of the most peaceful group on earth and they have been the target of assassination and harassment by Sunnis and Shiites.
Second, such claims about Pythagoras and his friends is also questionable. They are the propaganda fabricated by their enemies. Even at the time Rashad was among us, many lies were fabricated against him. Imagine several hundred years from now.. People like you will fill books with lies and speculations.
My recent book will expose the ignorance and arrogance of leading skeptics and ingrates Runnig Like Zebras... I will inform you when it is out. It will also be available electronically for free or nominal charge.
Peace,
Edip -
Can someone please List the Quran in English translated by Quranists ?
Did Ahmed Subby translated the Quran
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Salam everyone !
It is kind of sad that Mr Subhi would say Rashad used is hardship to take advantage of him. What I understand from his article on his website is that he might have left rather, because Rashad claimed to be a messenger of God. I don't know why Mr Subhi got bothered so much by Rashad claim. After all, he does not have any proof to the contrary. I am of the opinion of one of the brother here that there is probably still some Sunni in him. He does not seem to be appreciative of the support provided to him when he was going through hardships. He should have provided some support in return. After all, he was fighting for the same thing Rashad was.
I love all the monotheists regardless their interpretation of the Quran. The difference of opinions should not be the source of division for the monotheists but should be open for discussion. We should never act like Sunnis etc whose motto is "My way or highway". After all we should put our absolute trust in the Living ONE (GOD). Humans, no matter what their status, make mistakes.Personally all the questions that haunted me since my childhood were answered only by Rashad. Moreover, I love reading all those enlightening articles from Quran alone muslims and monotheists.
peace and God bless
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False allegations. Rashad did use hadith, but did not rely on hadith to reject the non-Quranic verses. His use of hadith was justified, since if there were such a historic addition to the manuscript (not the Quran!),
Edip,
Rashad has used Hadiths as a source of his defamation of the last 2 verses. This is the only place where he got his information from....