What is Islam?

muslims

I obey the Quran but when I participate in this forum, of course I must obey the forum rules.

You are still unable to give the justification for your ideology, and instead.. asking irrelevant question
Your ideology is inconsistent, and it is unreliable. . .

Whether it is from Muhammad or not, is irrelevant. . . and there are good and bad hadith

. . .

There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)
simply because it is impossible to reject all these laws, unless you decide to live by yourself in the jungle (hopefully not)

Therefore the ideology to reject the hadith and simply because it is a hadith is a half baked ideology
It is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense

Now.. .how do you explain this situation?

I'm not asking again.

David_Saidi

There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)

I think I already answered this.
Another Example I obey the Quran, but when I work in a firm which has many non-muslim employees in here, so I must believe the non-Quranic rules that firm provided to us.

Please see the context, Quran is not book of economy, mathematic nor constitutions , it's the guide to how to became good believer and how to reach HIS salvation.Quran is to those who believe on it

Ok if I'm a chairman in a firm and some of my employees are non-muslim and it's a wrong way to implement Quranic rules in my firm (Read surah Al Kafeerun).

Do you understand??

muslims

I think I already answered this.
Another Example I obey the Quran, but when I work in a firm which has many non-muslim employees in here, so I must believe the non-Quranic rules that firm provided to us.

My point is if you can accept bad "man-made law" from the firm's policy and statutory law etc
(e.g. fractional reserve banking. . . creation of money and a usury system to exploit the world for bankruptcy - see. 2.279)

Then why you cannot accept "bad/good hadith", which is also a "man-made law"

Your ideology is inconsistent since both the hadith and statutory law are "man-made law". . .

Is it simply because it is a hadith, and the other is statutory law?

What is your justification for this double standard?

David_Saidi

My point is if you can accept bad "man-made law" from the firm's policy and statutory law etc
(e.g. fractional reserve banking. . . creation of money and a usury system to exploit the world for bankruptcy - see. 2.279)

Then why you cannot accept "bad/good hadith", which is also a "man-made law"

Your ideology is inconsistent since both the hadith and statutory law are "man-made law". . .

Is it simply because it is a hadith, and the other is statutory law?

What is your justification for this double standard?

No double standart for me.It's you mister, don't understand what I say.

I never said if I follow that bank system.

Then why you cannot accept "bad/good hadith", which is also a "man-made law"

Because it's pointless and has no effect for me whatever I follow hadith or not.Please see the context
Why I believe the rules in the company I work for?? because I'm in the situation that I must follow that unless I will get fired.

When I spoke about hadith, mean I speak in the context of theology.

muslims

Because it's pointless and has no effect for me whatever I follow hadith or not.Please see the context
Why I believe the rules in the company I work for?? because I'm in the situation that I must follow that unless I will get fired.

Simply because it is "pointless"... and simply because you don't want to get "fired"

i.e. it is simply personal reasons . . .

Your ideology is inconsistent since both the hadith and statutory law are "man-made law". . .

. . .

What is your justification for this double standard?

If you feel like to follow the rules, you follow
If you don't feel like to follow the rules, you don't follow. . .
So as others, simple . . . personal ideology and dogmatic belief
since there is no principle which and when to follow the rules, and which/when not to follow the rules

and

That's what I said..

Double standard principle
Half baked ideology
No justification

. . .

I never said if I follow that bank system.

I never said that too
I guess you don't understand the system for money creation, nevermind . . .

(e.g. fractional reserve banking. . . creation of money and a usury system to exploit the world for bankruptcy - see. 2.279)

David_Saidi

What I discuss is about Quran and it's theology, intepretations. not anything else!!
So this discussion is between muslim and muslim not muslim and non muslim.

In theological context, I discard the hadith not because personal reasons, but because it's contradict the Quran and 7750 also said to discard it.
So in term of theology/faith all statinory laws must be expelled and follow the Quran only.

When I told you about why I believe in company rules, because I'm not talking in the context of theology, but talking in the context of work ethic.
Why?? It's to respond your post which mixing different contexts into single issue.

Like this one

In that case, you are the first person I know that reject the statutory laws..
and still survive to get your citizenship, proper education, medical benefits, works, electricity, internet etc.

Look!! This is very misslead the issue.
I reject statutory laws teologically, but it doesn't mean I reject it in other situations.

and my following example

I obey the Quran Only but when I participate in this forum, of course I must obey the forum rules.

I make distinct this sentence into blue and red.
In the blue sentence I'm talking in the context of theology, and in the red one I talking in the contex of my position as member of this forum.

Do you understand??

muslims

What I discuss is about Quran and it's theology, intepretations. not anything else!!
So this discussion is between muslim and muslim not muslim and non muslim.

So am I... and my point is clear..

unless you indirectly regarded Muhammad as God
(ie. the issue of Muhammad and the hadith is a theological issue)

What I'm saying Muhammad is a man, and therefore the hadith is a "man made law"
Whether it is from Muhammad or not, is irrelevant. . . and there are good and bad hadith

and I believe you interpret the word hadith in "7750" wrongly..
the word hadith can refer to anything. . . including statutory law, ie. man-made law etc.

David_Saidi

unless you indirectly regarded Muhammad as God
(ie. the issue of Muhammad as a theological issue)

I believe Muhammad as a Nabi not as a deity.

and I believe you interpret the word hadith in "7750" wrongly..
the word hadith can refer to anything. . . including statutory laws, ie. man-made laws etc.

Read the Quran again in what context rejecting hadith/statutory law.
If I'm a soccer player then follow FIFA law (manmade hadith law), then am I disobey 7750 in the Quranic contex?? The answer is NEY.

muslims

If I'm a soccer player then follow FIFA law (manmade hadith law), then am I disobey 7750 in the Quranic contex?? The answer is NEY.

That's my point. . . it is okay to follow some hadith, since it is a man-made law. . .
as equal to the above example of FIFA law

What I'm saying Muhammad is a man, and therefore the hadith is a "man made law"
Whether it is from Muhammad or not, is irrelevant. . . and there are good and bad hadith

Similarly and as equal to any other "man made law"
There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)
simply because it is impossible to reject all these laws, unless you decide to live by yourself in the jungle (hopefully not)

Therefore the ideology to reject the hadith and simply because it is a hadith is a half baked ideology
It is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense

However, you reject all hadith simply because it is the hadith

The hadith is a "theological issue" ? Nope . . . .
Muhammad is a man, and he is not God
Therefore, the hadith is a "man made law", as equal to other laws etc

David_Saidi

This mean you follow the hadith but not for teological/religious purposes.

But how?? Please can you give me the example....

The hadith is a "theological issue" ? Nope . . . .
Muhammad is a man, and he is not God
Therefore, the hadith is a "man made law", as equal to other laws etc

Because for this the hadith is created.
But still, please answer my bold question.

muslims

This mean you follow the hadith but not for teological/religious purposes.

But how?? Please can you give me the example....

Refer here Where does Allah prohibit all hadith?

Yes. on the basis of

just, or
unjust

regardless of it is from the hadith, sacred texts, man-made laws or other resources etc.

This is so since the Quran speaks about "just" or "unjust"
and Islam is not a "religion" (the fallacy of hasty generalization). . .
but a "way of life" (ad-deen)

The "way of life" is naturally an act of every human beings. .
with or without religion

The Quran as a Confirming Book

this is a Confirming Book
in an Arabic tongue

to warn those who have wronged <- unjust
and as good tidings to the doers of good <- just

(46.12)

http//1.bp.blogspot.com/-_ghCpHM1Yi4/Uqvd_yGyraI/AAAAAAAAARM/pwDqWu2kVwU/s1600/confirm.png

However, if you reject hadith simply because it is the hadith
Then what difference does it make between you and them?

No difference . . . and it is also a religion (sectarianism)

David_Saidi

but a "way of life" (ad-deen)

The "way of life" is naturally an act of every human beings. .
with or without religion

I agree with your view except this part.
Deen ul Islam is not "way of life" like Buddhist, because Islam has clear definition of the Deity.

Buddhist is yes it's the way of life, because it has no god, but follows Budha's way of life.

muslims

I agree with your view except this part.
Deen ul Islam is not "way of life" like Buddhist, because Islam has clear definition of the Deity.

Buddhist is yes it's the way of life, because it has no god, but follows Budha's way of life.

Buddhism is not a complete system of life. . .
so as other religions. . .
they are focusing on one aspect, and ignoring other aspects of life . . .

and the illustration from my philosophical statement..

http//carigold.com/portal/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147013&stc=1&d=1394108281

http//s16.postimg.org/h375brtmt/venns.png

However and in Islam, I believe the "ad-deen" is a "way or system of life"
and when we read the "ad-deen" together with "Islam"...
It is a system of life that corroborates with the Sunnatullah. . . ie. justly balanced system of life

and more precisely .. .

I believe the true meaning of Islam is not "Submission"
The true meaning of Islam is "Assimilation"

This is so since Allah's commands and prohibitions have its awwaliyah (priority)
it takes time for its implementation
and it has no end or beginning

Looks around and see
How a seed grows into tree
How baby grows into an adult
How a drop of water becoming rivers and oceans
How Allah creates this universe etc...

It all has its steps and takes time to be implemented

Contradictorily, submission will create tension in the society for conflict of human values
Submission will creates sectarianism, religions, conflicts and wars etc
Submission is focusing on compliance and targeting the end or perfection
Submission is religion

On the other hand, "assimilation" are focusing on the value of balance and justice in the society
Assimilation will create peace and harmony
Assimilation is not conformity, and it is not uniformity
Assimilation brings new elements to mix and neutralize other elements
Assimilation has no end, and it has no beginning
It is beauty and perfection, and it is the deen (system of life)
It is the Deen of Islam

the percentage of right/wrong (just/unjust) in every religions . .

and the process of "assimilation" into . . .

Mankind was one single nation (ie. from Prophet Adam)
2.213

http//s11.postimg.org/hq4ht9ic3/humanunity.png

And thus we have made you a just community
that you will be witnesses over the people
2.143

These were my views.

David_Saidi

I disagree your view if Islam is Assilimilation.

For me Islam is pure from God, not assimilation from some other religions.

I believe you follow the pluralism idea (all religion is same).Yes it sound peaceful, because all religion is same, salvation can be found in all Scriptures etc.
Something like Islam, Christian, Hindhu, Budha will ascending the same heaven

The example of pluralism is moslems allowed to used Vedha as their Scripture in order to go to heaven.

But if we little bit critic actually it's dangerous idea, because each own religion has different theology and it's a step toward the liberalism.

Pluralism is idea created by some secularist in order to create peace between humanity, but avoid the true essential of Allah and His teaching itself.

Myself is not pluralism but pluralistic means I'm a muslim but hold tolerance with other people from any backgrounds

Mankind was one single nation (ie. from Prophet Adam)
2.213

You get wronged to understand this verse.

2213 talking about people/group who disputed about religious teaching then God sent down the Phrophets to them in hope to make clear for what they had been disputed before.
So they will discard the disputation and follow God's teaching together and became the single umat (community/group).

Adam according to the Quran is not the first human but the first person appointed as khalifa.

Adam and his khalifa succesor can be read in this verses

333 God has selected Adam, and Noah, and the family of Abraham,
and the family of Imran over the worlds.
334 A progeny each from the other, and God is Hearer, Knower.

Adam the most commonly knows actually came from Biblical story

muslims

I believe you follow the pluralism idea (all religion is same).Yes it sound peaceful, because all religion is same, salvation can be found in all Scriptures etc.

There is no such thing as "religion" . . . It is "man made", just like politics
a symbol, an illusion . . to control the masses

Ibrahim was not a Jew <- Ibrahim has no religion, so as Muhammad. Both are non sectarian.
nor a Christian Why Muhammad rejects religions from the messengers and books of Allah?
but he was (an) upright (man) <- showing a great concern for what is right, fair and truthful way
a Muslim <- a Muslim is defined by the above ayat; ie. Muslim = an upright man
and he was not one of the polytheists <- Sectarianism, sectarian, idol worshipper
(367-6

therefore while you are speaking from your religious mindset
pointing out and categorizing people according to your "religious symbols", one after another . .
from an atheist, to a sunni, to shia, and now to pluralism. . .
making decisions solely based on which group someone belong to (a sectarian)

me. . . I'm speaking about "system of life", and Islam (assimilation)
making decisions based on what is just or unjust. . balancing between these two aspects
and aligning our life with the Sunnatullah; ie. everything . . .
assimilation, from many. . . back to one nation (ie. Adam), regardless of religions, races, backgrounds etc.

For you is your deen <- based on "religion" - Sectarianism - Bigot - concept of God alone, so as Iblees, Allah Alone
and for me is my deen <- based on "ad-deen" - Just vs. Unjust - an upright man - living justly balanced - Sunnatullah
(109)

(note can you say the same to other religion? nope.. because there is no difference. . . both are religions)

. . .

Adam according to the Quran is not the first human but the first person appointed as khalifa.

That's not my point. . . my point was we were all from Adam, as one nation. .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?"
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

David_Saidi

Yes I agree if din is not simply means religion, but also system, laws and excetera.
For me Islam can be both a religion (relation between human and God) and the way of life (application on verses in daily life).

The definition of religion is simply human's behavior to find and connect with their deity.

By saying this, I still disagree with the concept of pluralism.
Islam, Christian, Hindhu is same?? Yes they're religion and worshipp the deity(ies).
But are they entirely same ?? No especially in theology and theaching.

Can we merged all religions into single teaching? NO, circular reasoning will occurs

Intolerant against others is oppression, but religious assimilation is mockery/insult toward a creed/God/god.
Both of it is a herecy for me

That's not my point. . . my point was we were all from Adam, as one nation. .

I already told you if Adam in your view came from Biiblical story (or some false concept).

You get wronged to understand "single ummah" in the QUran and I also already explain it.

Adam is the first khalifa not the first human and the single ummah (2213) doesn't means we belong to the single nation (patrilinear-matrilinear blood), but it's about people who divided in term religious teaching.

Read 333-34, the descendants of Adam are Nuh, Abraham, Imran and they're appointed as khalifa.
So if you see the term "Son of Adam" in the Quran means we are the ummah under Adam's Caliphate concept not Adam's blood descendant.

But still Allah know best

muslims

Can we merged all religions into single teaching? NO, circular reasoning will occurs

Intolerant against others is oppression, but religious assimilation is mockery/insult toward a creed/God/god.
Both of it is a herecy for me

No one is speaking about "merging all religions"
I am talking about "ad-deen", our way of life. . . not about belief

and our way of life has no religion
It is natural in every human beings
It is only concern with the elements of "just" or "unjust"
and "balance". . . how to bring "balance" in the most "unjust" situations
This is "hikmah" . .

Regarding this "way of life" (hablum minannas), Allah already make it clear. . .

To Him belong the possessions of the heavens and the earth
He spreads out the provision for whoever He wills, and He measures it.
He is fully aware of all things.

He has decreed for you the same system <- below is referring to "religion" vs. "ad-deen"
He ordained for Noah,
and what We inspired to you,
and what We ordained for Abraham,
Moses
and Jesus

"You shall uphold this system and <- the system of "just" vs. "unjust", balance...
do not divide in it." <- No Sectarianism, ie. assimilation.. assimilate with the society

Intolerable for the polytheists (idol worshipper) is what you invite (unity) them towards <- contradicting the above concept
God chooses for Himself whoever He wills
He guides to Himself those who repent.

And they only divided after the knowledge had come to them
due to resentment among themselves
And had it not been for a predetermined decision from your Lord
they would have been judged immediately
Indeed, those who inherited the Book after them are full of doubts.

For that, you shall preach (speak for balance and justice)
and be upright, as you have been commanded <- meaning of an upright man
and do not follow their wishes (for sectarianism). And say
"I believe in all that God has sent down as a Book,
and I was commanded to be with justice between you. <- hablum minannas, unity, assimilation
God is our Lord and your Lord.
We have our deeds and you have your deeds.
There is no argument between us and you. <- hablum minallah, no dispute! It is personal preferences.
God will gather us all together, and to Him is the ultimate destiny."
4212-15

Regarding "hablum minallah"...

O you who believe, you are responsible for yourselves
none who are misguided can harm you if you are guided
To God is your return, all of you, and then He will inform you of what you have done
5105

and Allah will not accept religionism, sectariansim and bigotism

And whoever seeks a "dnan" (&#1575 other than Islam
it will NEVER be accepted of him <- ie. Sectarianism, Religionism, Bigotism
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)

Therefore it is clear that hablum minallah is a matter of personal preferences
They are free to believe in whatever they want

Our concern is only "hablum minannas". . .
To establish balance and justice in the society
and this requires "assimilation". . not "submission"

And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth
authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it
So judge between them by what God has sent down
and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth

For each of you We have made laws, and a structure
and if God had willed
He would have made you all one nation
but He tests you with what He has given you <- Hablum Minallah
so strive to do good <- Hablum minannas, this is our job
To God you will return all of you
and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute. <- Hablum Minallah. He will inform, not us!
548

I already told you if Adam in your view came from Biiblical story (or some false concept).

You get wronged to understand "single ummah" in the QUran and I also already explain it.

I'm referring you to the direct ayat of the Quran
We are the descendants of Adam
Regardless of whether we are labelled as Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Christians etc . . .

Therefore. . .

It is quite okay to be Sunni, Hadithers, Buddhist, Hinduist, Satanist, Luciferianist or etc. since no "religion" has a monopoly on truth and believe it or not, we are all those things, at one time or another.

David_Saidi

Salaam

Yes I know if deen can also be means system.
If we talking about Islam, the parameter is not only philossopy (falsafah) but still not avoid the theology/intepretation.

Despite "way of life", Islam can also be labeled as religion
Why?? Islam has definiton of God and proper rites (salat, fasting).

http//s17.postimg.org/ih7z4dej3/py_wof.png

Way of life is hablum minannas, it's about how we lived in society (horizontal)
While religion is hablum minallah, its about how we worshipp the GOD (vertical).

Way of life and religion has same point Talking about morality
But parameter (good and false) of what is moral, this is what "way of life" and religion differs in.

Islam, Christian, atheism has their own definition of true and false
Pluralism is ultra-assimilation and it's idea planned to merged the parameter (the unity within religion)

"You shall uphold this system and <- the system of "just" vs. "unjust", balance...
do not divide in it." <- No Sectarianism, ie. assimilation.. assimilate with the society

Yes you're true if this is your definition of assimilation.
As muslims we're allowed to participate in society as long we don't divert the GOD's teaching.

For sectarianism... it depent on what context we talk about.
Sectarianism is label for people who different in theology/religion.
But in this differences doesn't make us to be divided in society and this is how we need assimilation.

I'm referring you to the direct ayat of the Quran
We are the descendants of Adam
Regardless of whether we are labelled as Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Christians etc . . .

I already explain to you.
OK which part you don't understand??

Son of God (in Christian) doesn't mean we're offspring of GOD,
Son of Adam (in Quran) doesn't mean we're offsrpring of Adam.

No verses said Adam is the first human nor Quran spoke for who and what Adam is.
Secondly our civillization started in Tanzania, millinea ago, before migrated to another lands.
So we cannot gurantee so easily if we're the blood descendant of Adam.

Son/Bani of Adam, I assume this term if for the the believer or people who accept Adam, Ibrahim and Imran as the khalifah.

But still GOD know best.

muslims

Way of life is hablum minannas, it's about how we lived in society (horizontal)
While religion is hablum minallah, its about how we worshipp the GOD (vertical).

That could also be true, but what is the meaning of "religion" + "way of life" ?
Could it mean "religion" or "way of life" ?
How can "religion" (sectarianism) and "way of life" (nonsectarianism) mixed together ?

. . .

Secondly, I believe you are making your own interpretation of the "ad-deen"
Try search the Quran for that word and it is always understood as "religion"

If it is a "religion", then what difference does it makes with other religions?
For example, how can it fit with this verse?

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (1096)

The Hinduist or others can easily say, sure "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion"
See? It is meaningless. . .

. . .

Thirdly, I believe the definition have been corrupted since there are at least four words with different "root words" have been categorized as "religion"

. . . so many verses (&#1616
. . . madhab (&#1576 . . . belief, religion, hold a belief, ideology, trend, manner
. . . verse 2120, 130 dan 135 (&#1614. . . religion, to dictate, embrace a religion, creed/faith...
. . . verse 2.138 (&#1614. . . code of law, religion

For example

http//i58.tinypic.com/sov1a9.gif

My point is, I believe this should not happen and the meaning should not share the same "root words" since Allah said

an Arabic Qur'an, without any deviance that they might become righteous.
39.28

I believe this is the loophole and the meanings of the Quran have been corrupted
"The word "religion" share many root words and thus, the Arabic meanings can be deviated".

and contradictorily . . .

The Quran has described Islam as Ad-Din, which is generally translated as religion. However, in the light of the above meanings, it should be clear that this is not only incorrect, but distorts and negates the very meaning of din. Islam is not a religion (madhab), and it has never been described as one in the Quran.; <a href="http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm">Islam A Challenge to Religion</a>

and . . .

Dn as Used in Islam

It has been said that the word Dn appears in as many as 79 verses in the Qur'an, but because there is no exact English translation of the term its precise definition has been the subject of some misunderstanding and disagreement. For instance, the term is often translated in parts of the Qur'an as "religion". However, in the Qur'an itself, the act of submission to God is always referred to as Dn, rather than as Madhhab (&#1576, which is the Arabic word for "religion".

Wikipedia

. . .

I already explain to you.
OK which part you don't understand??

I ask you, which part you don't understand?

My point is. . .

We are the descendants of Adam
Regardless of whether we are labelled as Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists, Christians etc . . .

and the Quran says . . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?"
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

David_Saidi

How can "religion" (sectarianism) and "way of life" (nonsectarianism) mixed together ?

Since Quran is the book of Theology, so main subjects spoken on it is about religious system.

2208
"Enter to Islam completely!!" (enter a madzhab)

385 And whoever follows other than Al Islami dynan ( &#1575, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers. (follow another madzhab will not get the salvation)

This verses is enough to prove if Islam according to Quranic cotext mostly refer to creed.

Proof 1) Give the rules for rites - Kitaban mawqutan/scheduled times for salat (4103)

Fasting rules (2184-5)
etc
While "way of life", we can practice somethings as long as not for religious purpose

Forbids to embrance other teaching, hadiths beside the Quran (7750) (talking about theolgy/informal system)

While in "way of life" concept, we're allowed to adopted hadith as long as not for theological purose
(ex math book) (talking about our daily activities/formal system)

This is why I define Islam in the Quran as a theology, creed.

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (1096)

This is why Islam in the Quran defined as a creed.
Ex Me (Buddhist) and you (moslem) study in SMK Damansara Jaya.
Formality we're same, we both students of SMK Damansara Jaya and this how we involved in "assimilation"
But in term of religion we're different (theology/salvation)

I ask you, which part you don't understand?

My point is. . .

I hope we're not stuck in this issue for long times.It looks like you didn't read my explanation.
Many words in the Quran has alternative meanings and shouldn't always translated too literally.

Example - Ayat literally means sign but in Quran it means verse.

Nisaa literally means women, but in Quran it means wives

Son of God, descendant of God.
Now I ask you, what is the proof if you're descendant of Adam?? (Since you're a Malay or Tamil maybe)

I'm tired to re-explain, but you may re-read Quran again for knowing more.