Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers
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Peace Wakas,
A person can be sure yet have no evidence, people think like this all the time. In any case, let me rephrase so you dont evade again The wife says "you have no right to punish me as I do not accept your evidence (if you have any), I will take this case to court". Tell us, what happens next...
Her acceptance of evidence is irrelevant. She is guilty in the eyes of her husband. Thus she is punished. This is Allah?s law.
If she takes the case to Quranic court, the court will side with the husband and charge is dismissed.
And why do you evade answering my question
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Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.Resolve the problem or part.
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Most of those who think they believe in God are actually idolaters
So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly! The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. (12106)Some of those who think they are guided/believers are not
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of GOD, yet they believe that they are guided. (730)
On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them. (622-24)We are trying to determine what is Allah's law, so dont evade, and just answer.
These people are falsely claiming to be a believer. They ignore the proof provided by Allah. They are not believer. Thus they are irrelevant to this discussion.
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peace guest,
Her acceptance of evidence is irrelevant. She is guilty in the eyes of her husband. Thus she is punished. This is Allah?s law.
If she takes the case to Quranic court, the court will side with the husband and charge is dismissed.Finally! This is what I wanted you to admit. Essentially in your view "whatever husband says goes", e.g. if he says guilty, then she is, regardless of evidence. This is completely unheard of in The Quran, thus we will assume this is an exception to the rule, unless you can prove otherwise. Further, in the case of 246-9 The Quran clearly states whatever husband accuses wife of can be refuted by the wife simply by her testimony, so we will have to assume, in your view, Quran suspends this in 434 giving no logical reason as to why. In addition, husband can punish and we have to take the husband's word for it that he did it in a just way. Punishment with no oversight/limit is unheard of in The Quran.
Thus, your view is complete nonsense to anyone who requires no variance in Quran . This is what I wanted to demonstrate, i.e. holding such a view for 434 requires it to be an exception to the rule. Point proven.As a side note, it's blatantly clear you have not read Quran434.com
Now lets move onto the next testing of your view...
Resolve the problem or part.
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
These people are falsely claiming to be a believer. They ignore the proof provided by Allah. They are not believer. Thus they are irrelevant to this discussion.
They are not believers, exactly, but they think they are. So tell us guest, which of these is the true believer, or both are, or both are not
Jim "I am a believer."
Bob "I am a believer."Tell us.
In case you do not get my point, my point is simple, it is impossible to take someone's word for it that they are a believer hence can be trusted. No judicial system in the entire world is built on such blind trust, it requires evidence and law/procedure, exactly like The Quran. Thus, whatever husband says in 434 is irrelevant no matter how much of a believer he thinks he is, as we have no way of telling. The Quran does not have us rely on blind trust when it comes to justice!
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Thus, ironically, Traditional Muslims who uphold hit/beat actually not only go against The Quran, but some of the biggest "scholars" in Traditional Islam.
They also go against the prophet's example, which they always claim to be following. Not a single incident where the prophet has hit one of his wives has ever been recorded. But there are various hadith in Bukhari (and others) describing an incident where the prophet had been arguing / fighting with his wifes and was so upset that he actually left the house and stayed away for several weeks.
Also
... One day Umar was having an argument with his wife and waited as usual for her to accept his shouting with bowed head, according to the custom of Quraysh. But she did nothing of the sort "As I was railing at my wife, she answered me in the same tone of voice. Responding to my reproaches for her acting like that, she said 'You reproach me for answering you. Well, by God, the wives of the Prophet answer him, and one of them ran away from him until nightfall.'"
(Bukhari, Sahih, vol. 3, p. 258, French trans. by Houdas, p. 587)
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peace Leyna,
In hadith it is recorded he struck Aisha, however it is explained away as not a hit but a push. In any case, reference is given at Quran434.com
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peace guest,
Finally! This is what I wanted you to admit. Essentially in your view "whatever husband says goes", e.g. if he says guilty, then she is, regardless of evidence. This is completely unheard of in The Quran, thus we will assume this is an exception to the rule, unless you can prove otherwise. Further, in the case of 246-9 The Quran clearly states whatever husband accuses wife of can be refuted by the wife simply by her testimony, so we will have to assume, in your view, Quran suspends this in 434 giving no logical reason as to why. In addition, husband can punish and we have to take the husband's word for it that he did it in a just way. Punishment with no oversight/limit is unheard of in The Quran.
Thus, your view is complete nonsense to anyone who requires no variance in Quran . This is what I wanted to demonstrate, i.e. holding such a view for 434 requires it to be an exception to the rule. Point proven.As a side note, it's blatantly clear you have not read Quran434.com
Now lets move onto the next testing of your view...
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
They are not believers, exactly, but they think they are. So tell us guest, which of these is the true believer, or both are, or both are not
Jim "I am a believer."
Bob "I am a believer."Tell us.
In case you do not get my point, my point is simple, it is impossible to take someone's word for it that they are a believer hence can be trusted. No judicial system in the entire world is built on such blind trust, it requires evidence and law/procedure, exactly like The Quran. Thus, whatever husband says in 434 is irrelevant no matter how much of a believer he thinks he is, as we have no way of telling. The Quran does not have us rely on blind trust when it comes to justice!
Peace Wakas,
My point is simple as well. If she is guilty but honest then she knows the punishment is appropriate and she need to reform or leave the husband or be divorced by the husband. She does not go to a court.
If she is not guilty then she knows her husband is not a believer and should take appropriate action. In this case the husband do not have evidence. The husband is a liar and he is easily convicted.
If she is a liar then the husband gets rid of her via divorce. The husband has the evidence to convict her in a court.
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peace guest,
guilty AND honest? Interesting. Wife guilty and not responding magically does the right thing reforms or leaves husband!
knows the punishment is appropriate? Interesting. Is it her own made-up sliding scale of appropriate punishments based on what she did? cocaine gets a slap, marijuana gets a pinch etc etc? what if husband disagrees with this sliding scale?
Ooh, she knows her husband is not a believer? God-like certainty? Interesting. What action does she take then? husband is easily convicted? really, based on what, her say so? Oh my, a complete reversal!
she is a liar and he divorces her, thus having to compensate her even though he did nothing wrong, as per Quranic rules? oh but only if he has the evidence, boy he is stuck if he had perishable evidence, e.g. caught her with cocaine but she swiftly flushed it.... tell us, what does he do then? is he stuck?By the way I do not expect, nor do I wish you to answer the above questions.
Let me be blunt, your view is filled with so many insertions, problems, impracticality, contradictions it is untenable, but it's ok, we are about to disprove it yet another way... please answer the question and dont evade
Re 4128-130
Resolve the problem or part.
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
Bear in mind, you said (underline, my emphasis)
If she is guilty but honest then she knows the punishment is appropriate and she need to reform or leave the husband or be divorced by the husband. She does not go to a court. -
Let me be blunt, your view is filled with so many insertions, problems, impracticality, contradictions it is untenable, but it's ok, we are about to disprove it yet another way... please answer the question and dont evade
Re 4128-130
Bear in mind, you said (underline, my emphasis)
If she is guilty but honest then she knows the punishment is appropriate and she need to reform or leave the husband or be divorced by the husband. She does not go to a court.Peace Wakas,
The discussion is on 434 and not on 4129 You are trying to create a relationship between 434 and 4129 where there is none.
Verse 434 addresses a different issue than verse 4129. Therefore, your question is invalid.
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peace guest,
And there you have it ladies and gentlemen...
After multiple posts trying to pin down guest's understanding (and consequently, similar to the traditional understanding), he declines to answer what happens next in 4128-130 if the wife is stuck/suspended, as he considers them different hence an invalid comparison. Unfortunately, he doesn't realise with his "logic" what he considers invalid is irrelevant, as it would not effect his answering of my simple question. What I deduce from his answer does not affect him telling us his view, readers can make up their own minds.
But our exchange has demonstrated what I wanted, which is basically anyone who upholds this view of 'wife-beating' is caught in a web of their own making, and if you run through their understanding and test it against The Quran they soon become exposed. Try it. Just do what I did here.
That is why in all my research I never found one translator or commentator or "scholar" or tafsir who used The Quran to prove their view..... I wonder why that is. -
I have written an article on verse 434 of the Qur'an, a verse which has commonly been misinterpreted to justify violence against women. I have created a website to publish this article www.quranverse434.com
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salaam aqua,
Your article suffers from multiple problems as highlighted here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg347142#msg347142"withdraw/turn away / go away from them"
Requires the tashkeel of present day Arabic Quran to be incorrect
This alleged usage in 434 occurs in 435 with the preposition "Aan", thus making Quran seems inconsistent IF it did mean that in 434
No identical example of this DRB usage in Quran
No explanation of how the authority are notified
It is unclear to what extent one separates, how they can do so without being unjust etc
No supporting marital example in Quran
My view Impractical result when inserted into 4128-130 and somehow requires iAAradan to be a positive thing and potentially makes Drb/3rD similar"cite them" www.Quran434.com
Works perfectly with the tashkeel in the present day Arabic Quran
Several identical examples of this DRB usage in Quran, including when humans are the direct object as in 434
Explains how the authority is notified by 435, and provides perfect logical/sequential coherence
DRB use is clear and simple to implement practically
581-4 provides perfect coherence in terms of marital example
When inserted into 4128-130 provides a complementary practical and coherent solutionIn fact there were more issues in your article. If you begin your own thread for your article I'd be happy to highlight them for you to respond to.
Interestingly, in your work you do not reference www.Quran434.com where you clearly got a lot of information from.
