What is Islam?

David_Saidi

Salaam muslims and Man of Faith

Why are you discussing about the hadith and supporting the killing of innocent peoples ? laugh

It's the main proof if you're lack of knowledge of Islam

Who said I supporting killing the Papuan?? and where is the relation with the Islam??

Hadith is a man-made law
Muhammad is a man
So as Bukhari & Co, ulama etc. . .
They are all men, and their law are man-made law.

The second main proof if you're lack of Islamic knowledge.

Hadith is manmade? then who are the people who wrote the translations and Quran mushaf you hold right now?

Quran is God's revelations to Muhammad and Muhammad is the living example (mubbaligh) for how to practice Islam.

332 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.

If we're allowed to intepret Quran ourself withouth Muhammad's guide, then the hadith are solely useless!!.

So Muhammad's hadith are manmade laws, just because he is just a human?? ??? ??? hypno confused

Your people have sentenced those Ahmadiyyah to be killed simply because of their belief (hablum minallah)

Who is my people?? My people is simply muslims who loyal to God and His messeggers including Muhammad (saw)

Ahmadiyah is put the high treason against Islam, hijacked God's teaching, then you think the muslims will allowed such kind of things??
Yes according to human right it's unjustice, but according to GOD it's a justice to prevent the people corrupting the Islam more massively.

They have not committed any injustice relating to hablum minannas

Crime against Allah (minallah) will get more worse punishment rather than crime against human (minannas).
Ahmadiya deserve it because they did crime against Allah.

You supported their action and said that the Ahmadiyya deserved to be killed like that, ie. like animals !
and what they did is like what the kafir did to our Prophets !
Public killings and rajam, (18.20, 26.116, 36.18 and 44.20)

Perhaps if I answer this, you will not believe to me.
The only solution is read hadith and tafseer, the more you learn them the more you understand the Quran.

On the other hand, I have made a counterargument against the hadith and given you the ayat from the Quran
I have proven that your belief and the hadith in inconsistent with the Quran
I have proven that it is inconsistent with the principle of Islamic Jurisprudence, Usul al-Fiqh
Clear authority . . . no compulsion in religion ! . .and as long no direct physical harm to the members of the society

Reject hadith then just leave Islam and play speculations as you wish.
Islam is already been concepted for along time, Quran, hadith, tafseer are collected and formated with proper methodology and already been taught in legal Islamic schools for along time too.

The message of the Quran is "would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
and . . "So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."
and the is no compulsion in the deen. . .

Looks like I must be patient when talk to you.
How many times I must said "asbab ul nuzul"??

I started to get bored to explain to you, and read this yourself

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbab_al-nuzul

Simple you cited and intepret Quran as your own desire, using translations created by muhaddith and mufassir, no knowledge of Arabic al nahw, avoided asbab al nuzul.
You're none but speculators like Quran Alone follower.

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then the hadith etc. . .

Hadith and tafseer is needed for understand Quran.
How to understand Islam is we need to learnt it from Phrophet, since he is a living example.

What is Quran?? Quran is book of wahy who recorded the conversation between Allah and Muhammad.
Since we have no authority, the sahabah and us follow Muhammad for what we must do.

3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.

Intepret Quran withouth Muhammed's examples, then you're just a mere speculators

Just like this example

And in anything over which you disagree <- I disagree with the above facts and your rulings
its ruling is to Allah . <- ie. the Quran
, "That is Allah , my Lord <- Muhammad said this, therefore it is a hadith and it is not his decision anymore. . .
upon Him I have relied It is therefore not to be decided from the hadith,
and to Him I turn back." and obviously not your ulama, but is is the Quran
4210

You spoke like you're a Phrophet and intepret without knowing azbabul ul nuzul

muslims

I give up, it's getting no where . . giveup

All I can see is you are repeating your baseless opinion
lack of understanding of the issue of discussion
no valid conclusion, no valid premises and no valid assumptions
ignoring every answers, issues and using blank denials
lack of understanding of the Usul al Fiqh and the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence
and the using of fallacy as your main argument, ie. ad hominem etc . .

and which I'm not interested to reply anymore since it is circular reasoning and full of inconsistencies, mumbling from the start till the end.

The conclusion, it is not reasoning, and it is full of inconsistencies . . .

Last message, stop killing and murdering innocent people in the name of Allah & Islam . . .

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth,"
They say, "We are but reformers."
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive not.
211-12

David_Saidi

For Man of Faith

I would not consider the hearsay of Muhammad to be truly a divinely inspired source as it is mostly nonsense to be read in the hearsay (hadith).

Why you labeled hadith as hearsay while it's already been well precribed and transmitted since the sahabah (companion) era.

The problem is that there is no religion but only a system of God, and that is not based on a weird discourse "a'la" al-bukhari & co.

Bukhari is not the first person who collecting hadith but just re-collecting, some people who ever met the Phrophet also collecting the hadith like Abd Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'As who wrote Al-Sahifah al-Sadiqah (The Truthful Scripts).

Before Bukhari & co started collecting hadith, the Islamic schools like Maliki, Hanbali already existed for along time during the Phrophet eras.

Bukhari & co graduated from the schools and started the journey to re-collecting hadith from many Islamic schools, because in the past the writting medias is not as right now.

We need to know what the verse literally means and often in the context within. If the context is unclear then it is not necessary to know the original intention with the narration.

Then you will only play speculations until the last day.

May God always blessing you

David_Saidi

lack of understanding of the Usul al Fiqh and the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence

It's you actually.
Your lack is only one avoid asbab un Nuzul

Last message, stop killing and murdering innocent people in the name of Allah & Islam . . .

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth,"
They say, "We are but reformers."
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive not.
211-12

And also stop act like you're a Phrophet who received the wahy.
I only believe Muhammad's explanation, hadith and example regarding the Quran not you

You're not follower of Allah, but simply just a heretic.

muslims

he. . . laugh

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

David_Saidi

he. . . laugh

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

Heheeee
The hadith are collected with proper methodology and was sent down by thruswosthy people like sahabah and via Islamic schools and libraries

No hadith = there is no Quran mushaf and translations you used right now.
It's like you enjoy for eating cake, but mocking a person who cook the cake.

muslims

Heheeee
The hadith are collected with proper methodology and was sent down by thruswosthy people like sahabah and via Islamic schools and libraries

proven, circular reasoning . . . very simple! laugh

No hadith = there is no Quran mushaf and translations you used right now.
It's like you enjoy for eating cake, but mocking a person who cook the cake.

See? No understanding of the issue and no discipline in the Islamic Jurisprudence,
blindly following "People of the Book". . regeneration of the mistakes of the past. . .
over and over again. . . without using reason.

Allah has not appointed bahirah or sa'ibah or wasilah or ham. But those who disbelieve invent falsehood about Allah , and most of them do not reason. And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided? 5.103-104

You're not follower of Allah, but simply just a heretic.

Really? how many times have you changed your religion?
From Sunni, to Quranism, to atheism, to agonism, and then back to Sunni.. what else I do not know ? Hinduism? Buddhism? Christianity? rotfl

muslims

Why you labeled hadith as hearsay while it's already been well precribed and transmitted since the sahabah (companion) era.

Do you understand what is a "hearsay" ? rotfl

and . . . hadith is a man-made law, as equal to other scriptures and laws etc. . .

it must be confirmed and consistent with the principles from the Quran

http//quransmessage.com/articles/illustrations%20FM2.htm

http//quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/salvaged%20history/influenced.jpg

http//quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/214%20years/214%20years.jpg

Who are the actual (missing) narrators ?

Yes, Bukhari & Co. .

It is not Prophet Muhammad
It is not the Sahaba
but the true narrators are Bukhari & Co
It is their story, since everyone else are dead.

muslims

No hadith = there is no Quran mushaf and translations you used right now.

((of) the former people) (Tales) (And they say)
(which he (Muhammad) has had written)
(and evening) (morning) (to him) (are dictated) (and they)
25.5

plus +

http//quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/en%20masse/enmasse-small.jpg

JavaLatte

I told you, I'm not a Quran Alone follower anymore.
I already prove mineself, if withouth the hadith the Quran will sound stranger.

Are you sure, brother?

I think without influence of manmade hadiths, the Qur'an becomes more easier to learn, a very excellent book it is.

Perhaps you need more patience when you learn the Qur'an.

and I suggest to consider brother mmkhan's advice below.

So, waiting till Allah clarifies His aayaat is the best way as said in 10109 and also seeking Allah's help to increase our knowledge 20114.

Peace.

muslims

You're not follower of Allah, but simply just a heretic.

How come they destroyed the following church ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Question Does the following ayat say Allah protected monasteries, churches, and synagogues ? Does it also means Allah protects other religions ?

Permission has been given to those who are being fought
because they were wronged
And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory
those who have been evicted from their homes without right
only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ."

And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others
there would have been demolished
(1) monasteries
(2) churches
(3) synagogues
(4) and mosques
in which the name of Allah is much mentioned
And Allah will surely support those who support Him
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might
(22.39-40)

You misunderstood the concept of Jihad

Permission has been given to those who are being fought
because they were wronged
And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory
22.39

As we can see, permission to fight is granted to all religions
Permission of Jihad is granted even to the disbelievers to Jihad against the Believers if the Disbelievers have been wronged

If the Believers are committing the oppression
Allah will be on their side and Allah is competent to give them victory over the Believers

Islam only defends the fundamental human right of freedom of conscience.
Allah does not take religious labels, but Allah command balance and justice

For the same reason, a true Muslim should not only treat the worshipper with respect
but should also be ready to defend their places of worship when attacked

David_Saidi

Salaam muslims and Javalette

For muslims

proven, circular reasoning . . . very simple! laugh

While you said "circular reasoning", we have many evidences to tackle your arguments.

Do you understand what is a "hearsay" ? rotfl

and . . . hadith is a man-made law, as equal to other scriptures and laws etc. . .

it must be confirmed and consistent with the principles from the Quran

http//quransmessage.com/articles/illustrations%20FM2.htm

Cited form quranmessage.com right??

If you study about Hitler's death, then who want you to believe on? The witnesses or people living in this day.
Same if you want study about hadith, then what sources you want to used? the earlier Islamic scholars who involved on it or Joseph Islam, a scholar living in this day, but not knowing nor involved on collecting hadith.

Withouth ahlul hadit and a hadith, you will never see the Quran right now

((of) the former people) (Tales) (And they say)
(which he (Muhammad) has had written)
(and evening) (morning) (to him) (are dictated) (and they)
25.5

Even you formatted like this, it's still... you rely on ahlul hadith and mufassir and adopted their mushaf and translation.
Still same you forget, who inputted the tashkeel and arranged the Quran in simple format?

Your translation is simply wrote by Ahlul hadith, since Quran Arabic has unique pattern.
Need some tafseer and some book of Classical Arabic Al nahw to create such kind of translation

I can see, this is clear evidence if you're lack of knowledge of Islam (even the simple thing like this).

How come they destroyed the following church ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Question Does the following ayat say Allah protected monasteries, churches, and synagogues ? Does it also means Allah protects other religions ?

Permission has been given to those who are being fought
because they were wronged
And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory
those who have been evicted from their homes without right
only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ."

And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others
there would have been demolished
(1) monasteries
(2) churches
(3) synagogues
(4) and mosques
in which the name of Allah is much mentioned
And Allah will surely support those who support Him
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might
(22.39-40)

Avoding asbabun ul nuzul = NONSENSE!!
Perhaps this is the argument I left, since you intepred the Quran blatantly

David_Saidi

For Javalatte

I think without influence of manmade hadiths, the Qur'an becomes more easier to learn, a very excellent book it is.

Yes, because it hath already been translated and formatted by ahlul hadith.
You simply play mockery against them, but used their work to support your faith

and I suggest to consider brother mmkhan's advice below.

Perhaps you will change your mind after reading this one

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604387.0

muslims

Ignoring the issues , blank denials, blank accusations , and ad hominem etc . . . again ?

I think you are not fit for discussion . . . perhaps, not in this forum . rotfl

Avoding asbabun ul nuzul = NONSENSE!!
Perhaps this is the argument I left, since you intepred the Quran blatantly

and of course, another blank accusations and unable to prioritize the issue relating to Islamic Jurisprudence, ignoring questions and real issues. . .

and the context of historical purpose . . .

They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog <- rules relating to history
and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog
guessing at the unseen
and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog.

Say, "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few.

So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument <- the prohibitions, disobey ?
and do not inquire about them among from anyone."
1822

Inconsistent and contradicting hadith = NONSENSE!!

David_Saidi

and of course, unable to prioritize the issue relating to Islamic Jurisprudence, and ignoring questions and real issues. . .

Ok, we discuss this issue first and please don't divert to anywhere

Ok I want your evidences first, it can be scholar works or something (but not ur personal opinion or intepretations)

muslims

Ok, we discuss this issue first and please don't divert to anywhere

Ok I want your evidences first, it can be scholar works or something (but not ur personal opinion or intepretations)

Yes, the same old strategy . . . rotfl

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then we go to hadith, ijma and qiyas etc. . .
You keep ignoring the issue, please refer to the usul al fiqh

Priority of the Quran over the Sunnah
A Sunnah is the second source of the Shari'ah next to the Qur'an,
the mujtahid is bound to observe an order of priority between the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hence in his search for a solution to a particular problem,
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence; p.58 Second Revised Edition; Mohammad Hashim Kamali

Wishful thinking. . . prove from the Quran, then the hadith. . . then Ijma, Bible, Torah, Qiyas etc.
Again, and according to priority. . .

Quran
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Hadith
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Ijma (consensus of opinion relating to similarities with specific verses from the Bible, Torah (incl. hadith) etc)
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Qiyas (analogical reasoning relating to similarities with
non specific verses from the Bible, Torah, Traditions, Man-made law (incl. hadith) etc)
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Istihsan (equity), Maslahah Mursalah (considerations of public interest),
Istishab (presumption of continuity), Ijtihad (logic, critical thinking) etc . . . .
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Lastly. . . your opinion.

Therefore . . .

I have give you an ayat from the Quran . . .and Allah said "There is no argument between us and you", see also 5.48
This is the rule relating to hablum minallah . . . there is no argument!

Therefore where is the ayat to prove your statement that the Ahmadiya deserved to be killed like that ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

How many times do I have to repeat asking you not to merely stating your opinions ?

and

How come they destroyed the following church ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Question Does the following ayat say Allah protected monasteries, churches, and synagogues ? Does it also means Allah protects other religions ?

and

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

. . .

Therefore, which ayat from the Quran ?

This is the first stage. . . before you are qualified to discuss the rules from the hadith, ijma, qiyas, ijtihad and fatwa etc.

Verse and Chapter that allowed such killings and oppressions ?

Don't fail at the first stage . . . laugh

David_Saidi

Again, and according to priority. . .

Quran
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Hadith
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Ijma (consensus of opinion relating to similarities with specific verses from the Bible, Torah etc)
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Qiyas (analogical reasoning relating to similarities with
non specific verses from the Bible, Torah, Traditions, Man-made law etc)
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Istihsan (equity), Maslahah Mursalah (considerations of public interest),
Istishab (presumption of continuity), Ijtihad (logic, critical thinking) etc . . . .
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Lastly. . . your opinion.

Yes, Quran is the main priority, since it's Scripture
But to undestand it we need the hadith

Man_of_Faith

For Man of Faith

Why you labeled hadith as hearsay while it's already been well precribed and transmitted since the sahabah (companion) era.

What are you talking about? I do not know anything about that and I honestly do not care either. I would rather use the hadith of the Bible than using hadith of Muhammad at least they are less bad in severity on the blasphemy.

Bukhari is not the first person who collecting hadith but just re-collecting, some people who ever met the Phrophet also collecting the hadith like Abd Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'As who wrote Al-Sahifah al-Sadiqah (The Truthful Scripts).

Could be, but I still find that the message of the recitation is enough for me that I do not need any external information to know God's mission.

Before Bukhari & co started collecting hadith, the Islamic schools like Maliki, Hanbali already existed for along time during the Phrophet eras.

Bukhari & co graduated from the schools and started the journey to re-collecting hadith from many Islamic schools, because in the past the writting medias is not as right now.

I find most of what you read in Bukhari as either garbage or things that would be common sense anyway without reading it in hearsay books. It does not teach anything that brings me closer to God honestly.

Then you will only play speculations until the last day.

I have nothing I find myself speculating about. The message is quite clear actually.

muslims

Yes, Quran is the main priority, since it's Scripture
But to undestand it we need the hadith

Still no answer and again, you divert with your personal opinion and circular reasoning . . .
from the start of this discussion. . . and continuing.

The Quran is analogous to the "Constitution", and the hadith is analogous to the "Statutory Law"
Before any Statutory Law is valid, there must be the main principle in the Constitution . .
This is equally true in the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence and Usul Al Fiqh
Before any hadith etc is valid, there must be the main principle in the Quran . .

Therefore, where is the Ayat ?

This is the first stage to determine the legality of any action or rule of laws. . .

Where are the Verse and Chapter that allow such killings, oppressions and barbarianism ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449

Man_of_Faith

Yes, Quran is the main priority, since it's Scripture
But to undestand it we need the hadith

Peace,

What exactly is it that you do not understand of the recitation? I have found it very clear actually without involving hadith. In fact hadith used to make me confused, and I did never believe that any of it was inspired by God.

God bless you