What is Islam?

[David_Saidi]

I'm getting boring with your confusion . . do you understand our conversation ? rotfl

We are the first stage, and we are speaking about the Principle of Jurisprudence , Usul al Fiqh . . .

We are the process of identifying the main principle from the Quran, and then we will go to the hadith . .

Further . I am also a hadith followers . . so why you bring up the issue ?

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

[muslims]

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

The great circular reasong, for so many pages . . .

Try to prove it form facts and consistent rules with the Quran , rather than using fallacies . . rotfl

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

. . .

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Again . . and I don't have to repeat this silly issue . .

You must be joking, kill anyone who don't follow your rules ?

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

. . .

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

Yes, implementation . . ie. follow the rules and not opposing the rules , therefore where is the ayat ?

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

. . .

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Al-Hikmah does not mean disobeying clear facts, rules and principles from the Quran .

Prove . . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

And DO NOT eat of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you
and if you obey them, you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists. (6121)

Therefore, where is the ayat from the Quran ?

. . .

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

We are speaking about dead people, not dead animal . . .

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Therefore where is the ayat ?

Where is the ayat ?

Where is the ayat ?

[muslims]

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

Nope. . are you trying to distort Allah's words ?

The following verse 16106 mentions nothing at all about killing the disbelievers !
and it also follows that the hadith is irrelevant to the ayat.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

From Abdullah bin Mas'ud ra, that the Messenger of Allah said

"It is not lawful blood of a Muslim who has testified that there is no god to worship except Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, except in three of the following; someone who converted from Islam and left the jama'ah, people who are married but adultery and killing someone else. "(Shaheh Muslim)

From Ikrimah

"Some People of Zindeeq arrested and brought before Ali ra and Ali burnt them. The case was heard by Ibn Abbas, that he said If I do, will not burn them because there is a ban from the Holy Prophet said "Do not torment the punishment of Allah," and I still would have killed them according to the words of the Prophet "Who is change/ replacing his religion, kill him! "(Bukhari)

Again. . you have repeatedly failed to give the authority for such public sentences. . .
And you refer me to irrelevant ayat . .and interpret the ayat without proper methodology
Read again carefully . . Allah said "wrath from Allah" . .
It follows the punishment is from Allah

The ayat is irrelevant unless you are assuming you are Allah. . .

So. . where is the ayat to allow for such punishment ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

So. . where is the ayat ?

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Your biggest mistake is likely that you involve nonsense to interpret "the real thing".

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Can you please write me the passage in the recitation that says this?

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

And he not the only rasool either.

Red Implementation of Islam? What implementation other than what you already see in the decree do you need?

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

This is one of the most abused phrases in the recitation. People forget to think about what exactly is to be obeyed, i.e. what is the decree taught.

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

It is always possible to apply logic and reason in the interpretation also. It is obviously cadaver found in nature such as those killed by other animals. The prohibition could be so that possible disease is not spread unto humans. And an animal that dies by itself could likely be carrying some illness. I think the decree is quite common sense without involving religious ideas.

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

Or we could have common sense knowledge.

God bless you

[David_Saidi]

Salaam muslims

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.
Plus there are many evidences, if some heretic and murtadz people been punished both during Phrophet and Caliphate era

Plus for that christian church, it's HKBP (Huria Christian Batak Protestant), the Bataknese church.
This chuch always against the laws a.k.a they always build the church illegally withouth registered the SKBP certificate.

The muslims crowds is just shouting themself and the one who operate bulldozer of course the government agent.

[David_Saidi]

Salaam Man of Faith

Can you please write me the passage in the recitation that says this?

141 Alif, Lam, Ra. a Book which We have revealed to you, , that you might bring mankind out of darknesses into the light by permission of their Lord - to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy -

From this verse we know if Muhammad is the human who have more authority to explain Quran.

also in this verse

1644 with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

There are many hadith which properchied someone like @muslims who intepret the Quran by his own desire, including this one

Phrophet sallahu'alayhi wa sallam said You know, actually I was given the Qur'an and something similar to the Qur'an. Know this, there will be a rich man who sat on the plush seat and he said, "Hold you the Qur'an. Whatever is said lawful in the Qur'an , then it's halal, otherwise whatever it is said illicit in the Al-Qur'an, then it's haraam . Surely anything that is forbidden by the Prophet, God also see it as haraam " (Takhrijul Msykat no 163)

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)

Look now in this thread for how brother @muslims intepret the Quran.
He is very confident to intepret it withouth mastering first the hadith, tafseer , classical Arab, .... just like the man in thaat two hadits.

So before we intepret the Quran as the God's word, someone need mastering the Phrophet Mohammed's sunnah first.
If not you will find many speculative , disputable and nonconceptual intepretations like you found in this forum.

This is one of the most abused phrases in the recitation. People forget to think about what exactly is to be obeyed, i.e. what is the decree taught.

Mohammad is not only Naby but also a Rasool.
Naby is simply a person who received the wahy and the Rasool is the naby who became living example for the ummah for how to practice God's teaching.

Example of Rasool Nooh, Abraham, Moses, Esa, and Muhammed (all of them, peace upon them)

It is always possible to apply logic and reason in the interpretation also. It is obviously cadaver found in nature such as those killed by other animals.

It's the sign of speculations

[muslims]

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.
Plus there are many evidences, if some heretic and murtadz people been punished both during Phrophet and Caliphate era

Huh? another circular reasoning ? That's how it works, always . . . rotfl

Brother, "authentic scholars" is not a "reason". . . it is appeal to authority, a fallacy

. . .

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

[muslims]

There are many hadith which properchied someone like @muslims who intepret the Quran by his own desire, including this one

Really ? Let see whether your scholars are "inauthentic", "unreliable" and "distorting the words of Allah" . . .

For example . .

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

This what you and your scholars interpret, ie . . Muhammad's words is the indirect wahy of God. . .

Now we read the verse. . .

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed

Taught to him by one intense in strength
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat, the wahy, ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
The heart did not lie what it saw
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15

See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .

It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . . rotfl

Therefore, who are interpreting the Quran by his own desire ?

I think this hadith is more reliable and corroborated with the Quran, the descendants of the Ahlul Kitab . . .

Daripada Ali bin Abi Thalib r.a. berkata telah bersabda Rasulullah saw.;
Sudah hampir sampai suatu masa di mana tidak tinggal lagi daripada Islam ini
kecuali hanya namanya, dan tidak tinggal daripada Al-Quran itu kecuali hanya tulisannya.
Masjid-masjid mereka tersergam indah, tetapi ia kosong daripada hidayah.
Ulama mereka adalah sejahat-jahat makhluk yang ada di bawah naungan langit.
Dari mereka berpunca fitnah (penipuan), dan kepada mereka fitnah (penipuan) ini akan kembali??
(HR al-Baihaqi)

and . . . you should be very ashamed of yourself, for making blank accusations and ridiculous statements in this forum , repeatedly and without justified reasons. . .

[David_Saidi]

Brother, "authentic scholars" is not a "reason". . . it is appeal to authority, a fallacy

Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....

I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etc

Example http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM0Ozn52pUc

People who don't understand Malay language will think if Indonesia and Malaysia was in war because East Kalimantan dispute and alleged separatist named "Republic of Sorona".

But actually this video is about Indonesian military drills and Republic Sorona is a fake rogue state and used for dramatized enemy. Malaysia didn't involved in that drill.

Plus the second video about alleged prosecution against Christian is a misslead news.
It's not muslims NGO who destroy the church but the government officials,
The church is HKBP, a Bataknese chruch and it's illegal because has no proper certificate.

If you want to know, there are many illegal buildings in Indonesia and bulldozer in action is common thing in here.

[David_Saidi]

This what you and your scholars interpret, ie . . Muhammad's words is the indirect wahy of God. . .

wow now you spoke like scholar itself and know everything ;D

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

The tafseer of An Najm ayat 4

Dalam ayat ini, Allah SWT menguatkan ayat 3; yakni bahwa Muhammad saw hanyalah mengatakan apa yang diperintahkan oleh Allah SWT untuk disampaikan kepada manusia secara sempurna, tidak ditambah-tambah dan tidak pula dikurangi menurut apa yang diwahyukan kepadanya.
Abdullah bin 'Amr bin 'As menulis setiap apa yang ia dengar dari Rasulullah saw, karena ia mau menghafalkannya. Tapi orang-orang Quraisy melarangnya. Mereka mengatakan mengapa ia menulis setiap perkataan Muhammad, sedangkan Muhammad itu adalah manusia biasa yang berkata dalam keadaan marah. Maka berhentilah Abdullah bin Umar menulis. Kemudian ia mendatangi Rasulullah saw, dan memberitahukan perihalnya itu. Maka bersabdalah Rasulullah saw

Artinya
"Tulislah, demi Tuhan, tidak ada yang keluar dari perkataanku kecuali kebenaran".
(H.R. Ahmad dan Abu Daud)
Al Hafiz, Abu Bakar Al Bazzar mendapat riwayat dari Ahmad bin Mansyur, dari Abdullah bin Saleh, dari Al Lais, dari Ibnu Ajlan, dari Zaid bin Aslam, dari Abu Saleh dan dari Abu Hurairah bahwasanya Nabi Muhammad saw bersabda

Artinya
"Apa-apa yang aku katakan kepadamu bahwa ia dari Allah SWT, maka tidak ada keraguan padanya".
(HR. Abu Hurairah)
Dari Yunus, Lais, Muhammad bin Said bin Abu Said, dari Abu Hurairah mereka berkata bahwa Rasulullah saw bersabda

Artinya
"tidaklah aku berkata kecuali yang benar".
(HR. Abu Hurairah, Lihat Tafsir Al Maragi, hl. 45, juz 27, jilid IX)

Daripada Ali bin Abi Thalib r.a. berkata telah bersabda Rasulullah saw.;
Sudah hampir sampai suatu masa di mana tidak tinggal lagi daripada Islam ini
kecuali hanya namanya, dan tidak tinggal daripada Al-Quran itu kecuali hanya tulisannya.
Masjid-masjid mereka tersergam indah, tetapi ia kosong daripada hidayah.
Ulama mereka adalah sejahat-jahat makhluk yang ada di bawah naungan langit.
Dari mereka berpunca fitnah (penipuan), dan kepada mereka fitnah (penipuan) ini akan kembali??
(HR al-Baihaqi)

So you accuse me for not getting the hidayah?? pray in heretic masjid??

Sadar diri kau lah... you blame the great scholars like Syaf'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, Al-Ghazali etc and created your own tafseer with has no concept at all.

Hmm perhaps you're the only muslim who survived from punishment in the grave ???

[Noon_waalqalami]

also in this verse

1644 with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.

Peace, read what is written and not read "into it" words that are not there.
What was it which they concealed and did not make clear to the humankind?

3187 and when took the god agreement the ones given they of the book/writ to make clear they it to the humankind and not conceal it so threw they it behind backs theirs and purchased with it price of little of so wretched what are purchasing

1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder to make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting

6114 is besides the god arbitrator of and he the one has descended toward you the book/writ explained of and the ones gave we them the book/writ are knowing that it is descended from lord your in the right/truth so not being from the doubters

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace David Saidi,

It's the sign of speculations

No, it is not. It is the sign of logical conclusions based on the knowledge we have of what is good or not. And when you say "dead animal" then it is impossible to infer any other meaning than a logical conclusion based on the expression "dead animal". If you find a dead animal then it may as well have been sick or killed and infected by a predator. It does not take a wise guy to figure that out.

Naby is simply a person who received the wahy and the Rasool is the naby who became living example for the ummah for how to practice God's teaching.

The "best example" one has on how to practice what is decreed is to recite it.

141 Alif, Lam, Ra. a Book which We have revealed to you, , that you might bring mankind out of darknesses into the light by permission of their Lord - to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy -

You ought to realize that "o Muhammad" does not belong to the original narration.

It was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.

From this verse we know if Muhammad is the human who have more authority to explain Quran.

It does not say a thing about explaining something, it talks about conveying a message, i.e. the decree that was being recited by the man.

Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.

And you believe that Muhammad was using three stones to wipe his rear end while answering the call of nature? Is that what you want people to think of him as a retard?

What exactly is it that you do not learn enough of while reciting the decree?

Phrophet sallahu'alayhi wa sallam said You know, actually I was given the Qur'an and something similar to the Qur'an. Know this, there will be a rich man who sat on the plush seat and he said, "Hold you the Qur'an. Whatever is said lawful in the Qur'an , then it's halal, otherwise whatever it is said illicit in the Al-Qur'an, then it's haraam . Surely anything that is forbidden by the Prophet, God also see it as haraam " (Takhrijul Msykat no 163)

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)

16114 So eat from what God has provided you, that which is good and lawful, and be thankful for the blessing of God, if it is indeed He whom you serve.
16115 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe ?This is lawful, and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

Why would Muhammad recite something of the decree and then make recorded in a hearsay that things are unlawful besides that? Which narrative do you believe more in? This or your beloved "hadith".

Open your eyes and see that you are misled and misguided.

God bless you

[muslims]

Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D

That is because I am not a bigot, you are . . therefore I only see what is just or unjust.

and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.

The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....

What are you saying ? It is not about oppression against the Christian minority in Indonesia? the issue of cancelling Church Permit ? rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dA

http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians

How about Chinese minority?

You rape and burned them alive?

WARNING! VERY DISTURBED IMAGES

http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+

What's all this ?

They are Muslim but they killed, raped and burned people alive ? . . . and you support this kind of oppression ?

. . .

I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etc

What are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349349#msg349349

. . .

and. . where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

[muslims]

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

How all that relates to the issue of our discussion ? Another circular reasoning ?

It seems that you don't even understand what is the issue and what people are saying, and what the Quran is saying. . .

The point is you said . .

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

Meaning, you said the verse 53.3-5 is the authority for saying "Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy"

On the other hand, I prove that you and your scholars interpretation of verse 53.3-4 is totally wrong, a distortion of Allah's words. .

This is because the verse is about Muhammad and Gabriel,
not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy . . .

Now we read the verse. . .

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed
Taught to him by one intense in strength
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat"
The heart did not lie what it saw the wahy, ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15

See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .

It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . . rotfl

Therefore, who are interpreting the Quran by his own desire ?

As we can see from the above, the ayat is relating the wahy by Gabriel to Muhammad. . this is from the Quran.

and what is your reply ?

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

Huh ? Do you know how to read the Quran, or another circular reasoning ? argument by repetition? confused

Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong

Therefore, Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong rotfl

[David_Saidi]

1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder to make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting

Salaam Noon Waalqalami

to make clear

According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-words

It was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.

Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadith

[David_Saidi]

and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.

then what is relation with our discussion??
You simply posting baseless videos

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dA

http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians

I only recognized the second video by Aljazeera and this is still the same case with the previous one
Notice a person named Manurung in there, he is a Bataknese

The other videos somewhat the picture is true, but not the dubbing or commentatories
Do you think when Christian do missionary activities, make moslems convert to their religon, we muslims just sit down and do nothing??

Example of Christian misionary activities

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEYCZMlJz1g
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CToQS6zohCM
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWVCT-GeUU

You don't know nothing the situation in this country bro......
But it's time I told you, Christian may minorities in here, but some of their chruch and ministries was backed by international missinaries organizations stationed in some countries like German and America.
The work is simple, if a missionary capable to convert non christian (lost sheep) into their religion, then the misionary will get reward from that organizations.

Watch the explanation from former Christian http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sY4yXI7M00

You get many her videos by type "Irine Handono" in search tab.

The
The issue is not simple as you think, perhaps in Malaysia there is none or lest such a thing since Malaysia adopted sharia in the constitution

You may heard in a video mentioned "Laskar Jihad" right??
The first purpose of this group first is to defend moslems from Christian attack in Sulawesi
But I don't know why this suddenly turned into Taleban-like.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskar_Jihad

Remember the Christians also did many sin against us (muslims) during the Poso and Ambon conflict.

How about Chinese minority?

You rape and burned them alive?

By using the word "you" means you accuse me to attack the chinese.

Sorry to said this, but I WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person

Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots

http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+

The whole image and video is FAKE

The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them alive

I told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little,

More detail http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpW-5ObbKA

You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.

The picture you posted was very anonymous and don't know who really upload this.

Expecially this http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg

I'm gotta laugh when see this, how can the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.

First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video

DO YOU EVER REALIZE IT, THE HUMAN RIGHTS BOTH FROM LOCAL AND FOREIGN NEVER RELEASE THAT KIND OF IMAGES NOR THE IMAGE NEVER SHOWING IN THE MEDIA LIKE TV.PLUS THE MOST IMAGE ALWAYS IN CHINESE LANGUAGE.WHY YOU DON"T REALIZE IT INSTEAD BELIEVE THE HOAXS SO EASILY??

What are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl

I never said the Ahmadiya video is a fake!!!
I said if the second video about HKBP church is a missleading news

NOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC

[muslims]

Just see how you twist every word in this forum . . . rotfl

yet there is still no answer, over and over again
merely diverting the real issue and circular reasoning . . . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349643#msg349643

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

https//encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTZYHdoAZxPgCYtraY_6VEWV3wH7LS_lXYa4K5Z44vsr8g0LCIp

. . .

You simply posting baseless videos

Baseless video? That's how it is always being, they deserved to be killed like that. he . . .

. . .

The issue is not simple as you think

Yes, it is always not as simple as people think , and many here don't understand. .
Only you understand why they should be killed like animals

. . .

Sorry to said this, but WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person

Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots

What difference does it make ?

You support and approved such action, just look how you defend those barbarians in this forum.

. . .

The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them alive

I told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little

Anti Suharto and killed the Chinese Minority . . this is Islam rotfl

• the news said 1250 burned alive in one situations , rape and killing of the chinese minority

warning, very disturbed images
http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.html

and of course, these minorities are justified to be killed, raped and burned alive. .
so as the Ahmadiyyah killing, it is all justified. . those who killed them are Muslim
so as those 1 million Papuan Native and their traditional weapons, they deserved to be killed and burned alive like animals. right ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349349#msg349349

. . .

You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.

Of course I don't understand the Chinese
They are 42% of the Malaysian population
While Indonesia has less than 1% than the Indonesian population. . you understand them better. he he. .

and see? What is the difference between you and those barbarian ?
I started to sense that there is no difference . . . It is the same person.
and it is a laughing matter for you to see those people were killed, raped and burn alive . . it is porn videos!!

I'm gotta laugh when see this, how an the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.

First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video

So as in Acheh . . .porn vidoes and 600 rapes in a year, ie. 50 per month

http//web.comhem.se/~u99506137/RI-Biadap.htm
http//freewestpapua.wordpress.com/2009/09/24/shocking-images-of-indonesian-military-sweeping-operations-against-west-papuan-civilians/

This is disgusting.

. . .

NOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC

Yes, the Muslim in Indonesia killed, raped and burned people alive, and I am committing slander. . .
They are Muslim and this is your version of Islam . . very funny rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslNnhVCksw#t=360
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQ6kDkirBg
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy15BcK7lFI

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadith

Peace,

There are a testament to God's words in the Bible too although slightly biased and that is the decree to Moses, i.e. the Commandments and the Torah. But you are right that "Qur'an" is the only survived "original" compilation of God's words, and the only full compilation, while what was revealed to Moses could be filled on stone tablets and is merely a very common list of commands and some attachments such as the famous "eye of an eye, tooth for a tooth" and that you shall not eat the flesh of swine and similar commands that were reminded of in the Recitation to Muhammad to a people that had not received a reminder before, i.e. the Arab tribes.

To be quite blunt the recitation of Muhammad is also a hadith, that is God's hadith, and which hadith do you prefer? God's hadith or the hadith of infidels that want to create the same scenario that happened to the Jews and later on the followers of Jesus, i.e. lawmaking without limits or divine authorization, and did you know that the Jews have an approximated 603 "religious" rules?

God's "Law" is very simple while men, especially malicious men, are complicating things. God has not intended to make the Faith difficult for us humans but has a very simple structure with few direct rules other than the obvious decree recited by Muhammad slightly more than a thousand years ago.

The decree recited by Muhammad was the most detailed narrative of God of those previously revealed as per God's own words in the recited compilation. The Mosaic decree were the only previously revealed direct words of God on some material (tablets) and the Torah is what Moses taught from the decree (the word torah in fact means something similar to teaching), and after Moses a succession of missionaries were to uphold the decree with varying degree of success. Some were righteous while most were not and the most successful ones were mentioned in the recitation. The revelation to Jesus was written by his followers and were a testament to their own observation, and is much like hearsay. Many people uphold the updated decree revealed to Jesus but they do not do so without mistakenly associating him with God. Sad to say but Muslims worldwide commit the same kind of error even if they do not call Muhammad the son of God but it is hardly far away from the same degree of idolatry.

Without exaggerating I would say that God sent missionaries after Muhammad presence here on Earth but most were killed or ignored, and some succumbed to their own ego (see Rashad Khalifa). "Send" is perhaps a slightly inappropriate word since it is those that make a distinction among men that are chosen to excel on their roles and one builds his own success through perseverance and patience. But people are prone to treat their missionaries that they like as supermen with an exaggerated amount of power and might. Muhammad was just a man like you and me but what perhaps differentiated him from us is that he saw the Truth and he established a communication with his Lord, and your Lord, and my Lord and build a bond and received inspiration and guidance from the Lord due to his increased Nearness to God.

God bless you

[David_Saidi]

Salaam my brother muslims

I WARN YOU TO SHUT UP IF YOU LACK OF COMPEREHENSIVE AND UNDERSTANDING SKILL

YOUR ARGUMENTS IS NONE BUT PROVOCATIONS

MEANWHILE WHERE IS THE RELATION OF CHINESE and WEST PAPUAN KILLING WITH ME AND ISLAM

DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!

http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.html

I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND

YOU NEVER MET THIS BASTARDS IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE MOST OF THEM HIDING IN SINGAPORE, TAIWAN and PEOPLE REPUBLIC CHINA

Remember I write "some" means not all Chinese.There are many good chinese who understand peace and not do bad scheme

BTW why you care so much with the chinese while the main victims is not the chinese, but Suharto oppositions, collegers and looter in Jogja plaza.
They're missing, kidnapped, jailed and get killed during operation code named "Mawar".Most of the killers are organized people by army

Read http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penculikan_aktivis_1997/1998
http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedi_Semanggi

Most of victims are still moslems ya know, some of them even muslims activist...
Do you know during Suharto regime, the mosques were being watched by government spies and if an imam do khotbah by critize government the imam will face hard punishment

Also during the regime, the muslims was forbidden to used the word Allah

Plus take a look that website, who is the person who wrote that?? LAY CAO LAY, a chinese provokator!!!

I will quoted a stupid claim from that website

Tim relawan untuk kemanusian Divisi Perempuan sesungguhnya adalah tim relawan untuk kemanusiaan yang lebih besar dan dipimpin Romo Sandyawan

"Tim sudah melakukan identifikasi korban-korban kerusuhan yang jumlahnya mencapai 1333 orang, hampir sebagian besar adalah orang Tionghoa. Sekarang, kami sungguh-sungguh sangat marah karena perempuan dijadikan target atau obyek untuk mengintimidasi masyarakat lewat kekerasan seksual. Ini adalah state violence." tegas Romo Sandyawan

Red part Most of victim are chinese

But it's very contradict with the Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta's data, the legal investigator team purposed to investigate the 1998 incident,

This is their data http//semanggipeduli.com/tgpf/bab4.html

From that data, we know if the rape victims are only 34 people, and some of them are not chinese
So the website you cited are absolutely LIAR!!!

(1) data Tim Relewan 1190 orang akibat ter/dibakar

This is the main victims 1190 people get burned and most of them are looters inside Jogja plaza

If you still disagree, watch this http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6XsTwf9c8I
In that videos, there are two Indonesian chinese give the testimony and straightly tackle your whole arguments

1. Ester Indahyani Yusuf , a member of Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta and the writer of a book about the incident
2. Christianto Wibisono, his home was destroyed during the riot and he give testimony for what actually happen in minute 10450

So brother....... I think you start to slander your fellow muslims and start to support the devilish provocators.
How can someone like you capable to get the God's salvation??

Oh yes, I will give you the example of Chinese provocators https//www.facebook.com/xiaoyucan?fref=nf
http//yinnihuarendexueleishi.blogspot.com/
http//yinnihuarendeshehuigeming.blogspot.com/

Now what I want discuss is about Ahmadiya, because if I talking with you about chinese you will not connect and always misslead

[savage_carrot]

Please read the forum rules. This is a reminder/warning.