What is Islam?

Man_of_Faith

Peace David Saidi,

It's the sign of speculations

No, it is not. It is the sign of logical conclusions based on the knowledge we have of what is good or not. And when you say "dead animal" then it is impossible to infer any other meaning than a logical conclusion based on the expression "dead animal". If you find a dead animal then it may as well have been sick or killed and infected by a predator. It does not take a wise guy to figure that out.

Naby is simply a person who received the wahy and the Rasool is the naby who became living example for the ummah for how to practice God's teaching.

The "best example" one has on how to practice what is decreed is to recite it.

141 Alif, Lam, Ra. a Book which We have revealed to you, , that you might bring mankind out of darknesses into the light by permission of their Lord - to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy -

You ought to realize that "o Muhammad" does not belong to the original narration.

It was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.

From this verse we know if Muhammad is the human who have more authority to explain Quran.

It does not say a thing about explaining something, it talks about conveying a message, i.e. the decree that was being recited by the man.

Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.

And you believe that Muhammad was using three stones to wipe his rear end while answering the call of nature? Is that what you want people to think of him as a retard?

What exactly is it that you do not learn enough of while reciting the decree?

Phrophet sallahu'alayhi wa sallam said You know, actually I was given the Qur'an and something similar to the Qur'an. Know this, there will be a rich man who sat on the plush seat and he said, "Hold you the Qur'an. Whatever is said lawful in the Qur'an , then it's halal, otherwise whatever it is said illicit in the Al-Qur'an, then it's haraam . Surely anything that is forbidden by the Prophet, God also see it as haraam " (Takhrijul Msykat no 163)

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)

16114 So eat from what God has provided you, that which is good and lawful, and be thankful for the blessing of God, if it is indeed He whom you serve.
16115 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe ?This is lawful, and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

Why would Muhammad recite something of the decree and then make recorded in a hearsay that things are unlawful besides that? Which narrative do you believe more in? This or your beloved "hadith".

Open your eyes and see that you are misled and misguided.

God bless you

muslims

Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D

That is because I am not a bigot, you are . . therefore I only see what is just or unjust.

and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.

The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....

What are you saying ? It is not about oppression against the Christian minority in Indonesia? the issue of cancelling Church Permit ? rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dA

http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians

How about Chinese minority?

You rape and burned them alive?

WARNING! VERY DISTURBED IMAGES

http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+

What's all this ?

They are Muslim but they killed, raped and burned people alive ? . . . and you support this kind of oppression ?

. . .

I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etc

What are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349349#msg349349

. . .

and. . where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

muslims

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

How all that relates to the issue of our discussion ? Another circular reasoning ?

It seems that you don't even understand what is the issue and what people are saying, and what the Quran is saying. . .

The point is you said . .

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

Meaning, you said the verse 53.3-5 is the authority for saying "Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy"

On the other hand, I prove that you and your scholars interpretation of verse 53.3-4 is totally wrong, a distortion of Allah's words. .

This is because the verse is about Muhammad and Gabriel,
not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy . . .

Now we read the verse. . .

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed
Taught to him by one intense in strength
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat"
The heart did not lie what it saw the wahy, ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15

See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .

It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . . rotfl

Therefore, who are interpreting the Quran by his own desire ?

As we can see from the above, the ayat is relating the wahy by Gabriel to Muhammad. . this is from the Quran.

and what is your reply ?

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

Huh ? Do you know how to read the Quran, or another circular reasoning ? argument by repetition? confused

Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong

Therefore, Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong rotfl

David_Saidi

1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder to make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting

Salaam Noon Waalqalami

to make clear

According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-words

It was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.

Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadith

David_Saidi

and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.

then what is relation with our discussion??
You simply posting baseless videos

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dA

http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians

I only recognized the second video by Aljazeera and this is still the same case with the previous one
Notice a person named Manurung in there, he is a Bataknese

The other videos somewhat the picture is true, but not the dubbing or commentatories
Do you think when Christian do missionary activities, make moslems convert to their religon, we muslims just sit down and do nothing??

Example of Christian misionary activities

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEYCZMlJz1g
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CToQS6zohCM
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWVCT-GeUU

You don't know nothing the situation in this country bro......
But it's time I told you, Christian may minorities in here, but some of their chruch and ministries was backed by international missinaries organizations stationed in some countries like German and America.
The work is simple, if a missionary capable to convert non christian (lost sheep) into their religion, then the misionary will get reward from that organizations.

Watch the explanation from former Christian http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sY4yXI7M00

You get many her videos by type "Irine Handono" in search tab.

The
The issue is not simple as you think, perhaps in Malaysia there is none or lest such a thing since Malaysia adopted sharia in the constitution

You may heard in a video mentioned "Laskar Jihad" right??
The first purpose of this group first is to defend moslems from Christian attack in Sulawesi
But I don't know why this suddenly turned into Taleban-like.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskar_Jihad

Remember the Christians also did many sin against us (muslims) during the Poso and Ambon conflict.

How about Chinese minority?

You rape and burned them alive?

By using the word "you" means you accuse me to attack the chinese.

Sorry to said this, but I WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person

Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots

http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+

The whole image and video is FAKE

The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them alive

I told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little,

More detail http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpW-5ObbKA

You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.

The picture you posted was very anonymous and don't know who really upload this.

Expecially this http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg

I'm gotta laugh when see this, how can the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.

First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video

DO YOU EVER REALIZE IT, THE HUMAN RIGHTS BOTH FROM LOCAL AND FOREIGN NEVER RELEASE THAT KIND OF IMAGES NOR THE IMAGE NEVER SHOWING IN THE MEDIA LIKE TV.PLUS THE MOST IMAGE ALWAYS IN CHINESE LANGUAGE.WHY YOU DON"T REALIZE IT INSTEAD BELIEVE THE HOAXS SO EASILY??

What are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl

I never said the Ahmadiya video is a fake!!!
I said if the second video about HKBP church is a missleading news

NOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC

muslims

Just see how you twist every word in this forum . . . rotfl

yet there is still no answer, over and over again
merely diverting the real issue and circular reasoning . . . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349643#msg349643

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

https//encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTZYHdoAZxPgCYtraY_6VEWV3wH7LS_lXYa4K5Z44vsr8g0LCIp

. . .

You simply posting baseless videos

Baseless video? That's how it is always being, they deserved to be killed like that. he . . .

. . .

The issue is not simple as you think

Yes, it is always not as simple as people think , and many here don't understand. .
Only you understand why they should be killed like animals

. . .

Sorry to said this, but WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person

Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots

What difference does it make ?

You support and approved such action, just look how you defend those barbarians in this forum.

. . .

The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them alive

I told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little

Anti Suharto and killed the Chinese Minority . . this is Islam rotfl

the news said 1250 burned alive in one situations , rape and killing of the chinese minority

warning, very disturbed images
http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.html

and of course, these minorities are justified to be killed, raped and burned alive. .
so as the Ahmadiyyah killing, it is all justified. . those who killed them are Muslim
so as those 1 million Papuan Native and their traditional weapons, they deserved to be killed and burned alive like animals. right ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349349#msg349349

. . .

You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.

Of course I don't understand the Chinese
They are 42% of the Malaysian population
While Indonesia has less than 1% than the Indonesian population. . you understand them better. he he. .

and see? What is the difference between you and those barbarian ?
I started to sense that there is no difference . . . It is the same person.
and it is a laughing matter for you to see those people were killed, raped and burn alive . . it is porn videos!!

I'm gotta laugh when see this, how an the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.

First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video

So as in Acheh . . .porn vidoes and 600 rapes in a year, ie. 50 per month

http//web.comhem.se/~u99506137/RI-Biadap.htm
http//freewestpapua.wordpress.com/2009/09/24/shocking-images-of-indonesian-military-sweeping-operations-against-west-papuan-civilians/

This is disgusting.

. . .

NOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC

Yes, the Muslim in Indonesia killed, raped and burned people alive, and I am committing slander. . .
They are Muslim and this is your version of Islam . . very funny rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslNnhVCksw#t=360
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQ6kDkirBg
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy15BcK7lFI

Man_of_Faith

Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadith

Peace,

There are a testament to God's words in the Bible too although slightly biased and that is the decree to Moses, i.e. the Commandments and the Torah. But you are right that "Qur'an" is the only survived "original" compilation of God's words, and the only full compilation, while what was revealed to Moses could be filled on stone tablets and is merely a very common list of commands and some attachments such as the famous "eye of an eye, tooth for a tooth" and that you shall not eat the flesh of swine and similar commands that were reminded of in the Recitation to Muhammad to a people that had not received a reminder before, i.e. the Arab tribes.

To be quite blunt the recitation of Muhammad is also a hadith, that is God's hadith, and which hadith do you prefer? God's hadith or the hadith of infidels that want to create the same scenario that happened to the Jews and later on the followers of Jesus, i.e. lawmaking without limits or divine authorization, and did you know that the Jews have an approximated 603 "religious" rules?

God's "Law" is very simple while men, especially malicious men, are complicating things. God has not intended to make the Faith difficult for us humans but has a very simple structure with few direct rules other than the obvious decree recited by Muhammad slightly more than a thousand years ago.

The decree recited by Muhammad was the most detailed narrative of God of those previously revealed as per God's own words in the recited compilation. The Mosaic decree were the only previously revealed direct words of God on some material (tablets) and the Torah is what Moses taught from the decree (the word torah in fact means something similar to teaching), and after Moses a succession of missionaries were to uphold the decree with varying degree of success. Some were righteous while most were not and the most successful ones were mentioned in the recitation. The revelation to Jesus was written by his followers and were a testament to their own observation, and is much like hearsay. Many people uphold the updated decree revealed to Jesus but they do not do so without mistakenly associating him with God. Sad to say but Muslims worldwide commit the same kind of error even if they do not call Muhammad the son of God but it is hardly far away from the same degree of idolatry.

Without exaggerating I would say that God sent missionaries after Muhammad presence here on Earth but most were killed or ignored, and some succumbed to their own ego (see Rashad Khalifa). "Send" is perhaps a slightly inappropriate word since it is those that make a distinction among men that are chosen to excel on their roles and one builds his own success through perseverance and patience. But people are prone to treat their missionaries that they like as supermen with an exaggerated amount of power and might. Muhammad was just a man like you and me but what perhaps differentiated him from us is that he saw the Truth and he established a communication with his Lord, and your Lord, and my Lord and build a bond and received inspiration and guidance from the Lord due to his increased Nearness to God.

God bless you

David_Saidi

Salaam my brother muslims

I WARN YOU TO SHUT UP IF YOU LACK OF COMPEREHENSIVE AND UNDERSTANDING SKILL

YOUR ARGUMENTS IS NONE BUT PROVOCATIONS

MEANWHILE WHERE IS THE RELATION OF CHINESE and WEST PAPUAN KILLING WITH ME AND ISLAM

DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!

http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.html

I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND

YOU NEVER MET THIS BASTARDS IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE MOST OF THEM HIDING IN SINGAPORE, TAIWAN and PEOPLE REPUBLIC CHINA

Remember I write "some" means not all Chinese.There are many good chinese who understand peace and not do bad scheme

BTW why you care so much with the chinese while the main victims is not the chinese, but Suharto oppositions, collegers and looter in Jogja plaza.
They're missing, kidnapped, jailed and get killed during operation code named "Mawar".Most of the killers are organized people by army

Read http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penculikan_aktivis_1997/1998
http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedi_Semanggi

Most of victims are still moslems ya know, some of them even muslims activist...
Do you know during Suharto regime, the mosques were being watched by government spies and if an imam do khotbah by critize government the imam will face hard punishment

Also during the regime, the muslims was forbidden to used the word Allah

Plus take a look that website, who is the person who wrote that?? LAY CAO LAY, a chinese provokator!!!

I will quoted a stupid claim from that website

Tim relawan untuk kemanusian Divisi Perempuan sesungguhnya adalah tim relawan untuk kemanusiaan yang lebih besar dan dipimpin Romo Sandyawan

"Tim sudah melakukan identifikasi korban-korban kerusuhan yang jumlahnya mencapai 1333 orang, hampir sebagian besar adalah orang Tionghoa. Sekarang, kami sungguh-sungguh sangat marah karena perempuan dijadikan target atau obyek untuk mengintimidasi masyarakat lewat kekerasan seksual. Ini adalah state violence." tegas Romo Sandyawan

Red part Most of victim are chinese

But it's very contradict with the Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta's data, the legal investigator team purposed to investigate the 1998 incident,

This is their data http//semanggipeduli.com/tgpf/bab4.html

From that data, we know if the rape victims are only 34 people, and some of them are not chinese
So the website you cited are absolutely LIAR!!!

(1) data Tim Relewan 1190 orang akibat ter/dibakar

This is the main victims 1190 people get burned and most of them are looters inside Jogja plaza

If you still disagree, watch this http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6XsTwf9c8I
In that videos, there are two Indonesian chinese give the testimony and straightly tackle your whole arguments

Ester Indahyani Yusuf , a member of Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta and the writer of a book about the incident
Christianto Wibisono, his home was destroyed during the riot and he give testimony for what actually happen in minute 10450

So brother....... I think you start to slander your fellow muslims and start to support the devilish provocators.
How can someone like you capable to get the God's salvation??

Oh yes, I will give you the example of Chinese provocators https//www.facebook.com/xiaoyucan?fref=nf
http//yinnihuarendexueleishi.blogspot.com/
http//yinnihuarendeshehuigeming.blogspot.com/

Now what I want discuss is about Ahmadiya, because if I talking with you about chinese you will not connect and always misslead

savage_carrot

Please read the forum rules. This is a reminder/warning.

JavaLatte

Yes, the Muslim in Indonesia killed, raped and burned people alive,

The killing, raping, and other kind of crimes also happened in many other countries in the world, not just in Indonesia.

And I observe that people who claim as Muslims are not always obey Allah.

And you also can look into yourself. Your attitudes (insulting and enjoy mocking at others) seem far from the righteous attitudes that I know from the Qur'an.

Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

And you also can look into yourself. Your attitudes (insulting and enjoy mocking at others) seem far from the righteous attitudes that I know from the Qur'an.

I have felt this before too.

God bless you

David_Saidi

Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim

In the past I lived in Indonesia, but it doesn't means I support the government. Government and citizen/civvilian are two different entities
Allah is the most I loyal to and all good muslims whatever their sects, race, countries as long as they're not corrupted Quran and hadith, they're my brother ans sisters.

Embrance Ukhuwah Islamiyah (Islamic brotherhood)

muslims

I have felt this before too.

You should because you also belong to those who like to mumbling with personal fallacy
and with no methodology for identification of truth
and in fact many are here. . .

and when people start questioning your contention and asking for prove . .
when people start "testing the truth of your contention", with premises from the Quran
you becoming into this. . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341096#msg341096
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341094#msg341094
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg342173#msg342173

revealing your true Muslim character . . .

Truth because I said it is truth . . don't ever ever ever question what I said!

muslims

And you also can look into yourself. Your attitudes (insulting and enjoy mocking at others) seem far from the righteous attitudes that I know from the Qur'an.

Is this the answer to the issue or it is merely ad hominem?

muslims

Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim

Another self contradicting statement ? or. . you mean to say "muslims who kill muslims (from the same sect) like in the Aceh case"

July 2010
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.

I believe they make the syahada, pray to the same Allah, fasting, pay zakat . . go to hajj and teach righteousness etc. (refer here). They are muslim as the majority called themselves a Muslim.

Distinct Ahmadi beliefs

Although the central values of Islam (prayer, charity, fasting, etc.) and the six articles of belief of Ahmadis are identical to those of mainstream Sunni Muslims and central to Ahmadi belief, distinct Ahmadiyya beliefs include the following

That the prophecies concerning the second coming of Jesus were metaphorical in nature and not literal because Jesus is in their belief is dead, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad fulfilled in his person these prophecies and the second advent of Jesus, that he was the promised Mahdi and Messiah.
The continuation of divine revelation. Although the Qur'an is the final message of God for mankind, He continues to communicate with his chosen individuals in the same way he is believed to have done in the past. All of God's attributes are eternal.
That no verse of the Qur'an abrogates or cancels another verse. All Qur'anic verses have equal validity, in keeping with their emphasis on the "unsurpassable beauty and unquestionable validity of the Qur'n". The harmonization of apparently incompatible rulings is resolved through their juridical deflation in Ahmad fiqh, so that a ruling (considered to have applicability only to the specific situation for which it was revealed), is effective not because it was revealed last, but because it is most suited to the situation at hand.
That Jesus, contrary to mainstream Islamic belief, was crucified and survived the four hours on the cross. He was later revived from a swoon in the tomb. Ahmadis believe that Jesus died in Kashmir of old age whilst seeking the Lost Tribes of Israel. Jesus' remains are believed to be entombed in Kashmir under the name Yuz Asaf. Ahmadis believe that Jesus foretold the coming of Muhammad after him, which Christians have misinterpreted.
That the "Messiah" and the "Imam Mahdi" are the same person, and that it is through his teachings and influence and through his prayers and those of his followers that Islam will defeat the Anti-Christ or Dajjal in a period similar to the period of time it took for nascent Christianity to rise (see also Ahmadiyya relationship with Christianity) and that the Dajjal's power will slowly melt away like the melting of snow, heralding the final victory of Islam and the age of peace.
That the history of religion is cyclic and is renewed every seven millennia. The present cycle from the time of the Biblical Adam is split into seven epochs or ages, parallel to the seven days of the week, with periods for light and darkness. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appeared as the promised Messiah at the sixth epoch heralding the seventh and final age of mankind, as a day in the estimation of God is like a thousand years of man's reckoning. According to Ghulam Ahmad, just as the sixth day of the week is reserved for Jumu'ah (congregational prayers), likewise his age is destined for a global assembling of mankind in which the world is to unite under one universal religion Islam.
The two Ahmadiyya groups have varying beliefs regarding the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believes that Muhammad brought prophethood to perfection and was the last law-bearing prophet and the apex of humankind's spiritual evolution. New prophets can come, but they must be completely subordinate to Muhammad and cannot exceed him in excellence nor alter his teaching or bring any new law or religion. They are also thought of as reflections of Muhammad rather than independently made into Prophets, like the Prophets of antiquity. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement believes that Muhammad is the last of the prophets and no prophet, new or old, can come after him, also rejecting any notion of Jesus returning to earth as a Prophet

Wikipedia, Ahmadiyya

. . .

I'm closing the issue of Ahmaddiya since you have no reason to justified your contention, from page 50 to page 58. .
Other than distortion of the rules form the Quran, blank denials, fallacy and circular reasoning. .

and . . I think there are full of people who just like to mumble without facts and personal fallacy
and without using clear authority and reasoning . . .

Truth for them, because I said it is truth . .
and without proving that their contention has no inconsistency with any rules from the Quran

Premise. . .

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah <- ie. including the rules, hadith etc
they would have found within it much contradiction
482

Clear authority; all true premises
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606010.msg342131#msg342131

. . . The conclusion

Facts

at page 50. . .

Mohammed (saw) is also sectarian, if not he won't attacking pagan or jewish tribes to make them embrance Islam.
And also the Caliphate will not destroy Byzantine just because they're Christian.

Islam is identity and must be united in single ummah whatever the sects.

. . .

The issue Whether Muhammad is a sectarian and attack people to make them embrace Islam ?

at page 50. . .

Another contradiction . . .

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

See? Another wishful thinking . . . your contention are full of inconsistencies.

and did you mean this kind of unity and Islam ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_GTRcKq_I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ReNSqqVeU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0S4qUQWzU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

. . .

Contention (1) The hadith said those people should be killed.

David Saidi

According to hadith, the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah.
Also in hadith, Ahmadiyah will labelled as "raddad".Same as murtad, they will get death sentence if they're not repent.

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

My counterargument

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

and . .

It is not the true methodology for Islamic Jurisprudence (usul al fiqh) . . and there is not a single ayat to support the hadith. Contradictorily, there are bundle of authority that prohibit such action.

your contention are contradicting the Quran.

the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.

refer here for authority

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349380#msg349380
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349596#msg349596
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349395#msg349395
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349438#msg349438

. . .

Contention (2) The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer of verse 16106, therefore can kill the disbelievers etc.

David Saidi

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

My counterargument

Verse 16106 is not the authority since "Allah said "wrath from Allah" . . and it follows the punishment is from Allah. It is a clear distortion of Allah's words.

Nope. . are you trying to distort Allah's words ?

The following verse 16106 mentions nothing at all about killing the disbelievers !
and it also follows that the hadith is irrelevant to the ayat.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349616#msg349616

. . .

Contention (3) The Quran is silent on those issue, therefore can kill the disbelievers.

David Saidi

the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.

There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment

Laws regarding picture
Circumcision and etc

My counterargument

The Quran is not silent on those issues, it is a clear authority.

The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

. . .

Contention (4) Verse 533-4 says Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human)

David Saidi

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

My counterargument

Verse 533-4 does not say whatever Muhammad saying is a wahy, it is a clear distortion of Allah's words.

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed
Taught to him by one intense in strength <- Gabriel
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat, the wahy,
The heart did not lie what it saw ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15

See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .

It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . .

refer here for authority

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349643#msg349643

. . . no answer, from page 50 to page 58

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

and it will just remain the same. . and I believe the killing of the Ahmadiyya, is not Islam.

But whoever kills a believer intentionally
his recompense is Hell
wherein he will abide eternally
and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment
493

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land
it is as if he had slain mankind entirely
And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely
And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs
Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors
532

Noon_waalqalami

Salaam Noon Waalqalami

to make clear

According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-words

Salaam David Saidi,

OK again you missed the point and verse ? what was to be made clear to humankind and not conceal it?

3187 and when took the god agreement the ones given they of the book/writ that thou make clear it to the humankind and not thou conceal it so threw they it behind backs theirs and purchased with it price of little of so wretched what purchasing

1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder that thou make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting

muslims

DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!

I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND

"...WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND..."

The less than 1% minority want to take over the Indonesia country, just what they did in Singapore and Thailand.

The contention is very sound and logic.

. . .

Therefore . . .

prove that life is not about Sunnatullah
prove that justice is not about balance

refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349248#msg349248

. .

The point of discussion from the Papuan issue, Timor Leste, Acheh, Christian and Chinese minorities etc is. . .
Religious tolerance and freedom under threat in Indonesia. .
Their way of living has nothing to do with Islam, but it is fanaticism, religionism, racism, nationalism and sectarianism etc.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvYp8SRpPNI

No balance and no justice . . . and there is no Ying and Yang.

goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil . . .

http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif

Therefore . . there is no Islamic way of living in Indonesia.

It is merely Religionism and Sectarianism.

I'm bigot?? Yes, I will became bigot to someone who tried to annilihate my faith

my faith = sectarianism
(killed and burned alive all minorities. . . they are threatening our security with their ancient weapons, and so on. . . )

whereas, and contradictorily. . .

refer here Reply #443
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg348769#msg348769

For you is your deen <- based on "religion" - Sectarianism - Bigot - concept of God alone, so as Iblees, Allah Alone
and for me is my deen <- based on "ad-deen" - Just vs. Unjust - an upright man - living justly balanced - Sunnatullah
(109)

(note can you say the same to other religion? nope.. because there is no difference. . . both are religions)

http//s11.postimg.org/hq4ht9ic3/humanunity.png

Therefore and in my opinion , what you fight for is not Islam.

in the fact muslims actually must united into single ummah, helping each other and not bounded by nationality or races.

What makes you think I will unite with the oppressor and who support the killing of 500,000 innocent people and treat them like animals ?

and do not be of those who associate others with Allah
of those who have divided their religion and become sects
every faction rejoicing in what it has
3031-32

You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day
having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger
even if they were
their fathers
or their sons
or their brothers
or their kindred
Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him
And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally
Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah .
Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful.
58.22

While. . .

July 2010
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

Ahmadiya deserved it

Religion is an insult to human dignity
With or without religion
you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion
Steven Weinberg

end.

muslims

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.

They are not authentic scholars, and obviously. . they are not the ulama.

I prefer to the following definition of an ulama (35.27-2. . .

The Quran has referred to those people as ulema, and in modern terminology they are called scientists.

or. . an expert in any field of studies or discipline relating to life and Allah's creations !

Physics, botany, zoology, and the humanities are all touched upon. The knowledgeable persons are awestruck because their insight has convinced them of His power and Wisdom in controlling the universe perfectly.

Reason . . .

The Ulema?Who Are They?

The issue

The capacity to acquire knowledge makes human beings the most superior of creations. But what is knowledge? Who is entitled to be called a knowledgeable person (ulema)? What is the Quranic point of view on this?

FIRST PART, the definition of knowledge

We must identify the "type and category of knowledge", before we can identify who is the ulama. . .accordingly, the believers and muslim.

The following is the verse to define the "type and category of knowledge" that must be acquired for someone to be called as the ulama . .

1736
And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge.
Indeed, the hearing,
the sight
and the heart
about all those will be questioned

7179
And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind.
They have hearts with which they do not understand,
they have eyes with which they do not see,
and they have ears with which they do not hear.
Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray.
It is they who are the heedless.

ie. knowledge is related to . . . heart + eyes + ears. . .

This verse also indicates that knowledge is only that which can be explained by the senses and the mind. Intangible, abstract matters have nothing to do with the senses. Observation of natural phenomena and the study of the universe, experimentation to discover the laws of creation, maintenance, and workings of the components of the universe are the applications of sense-perception. In modern terminology this is called scientific knowledge. As the Quran states, the pursuit of such knowledge is the duty of all believers (momineen).

It is "scientific knowledge" . . . and therefore,

it is the duty of the Muslim ummah to understand the laws of nature and utilize them for the benefit of mankind.

Indeed, within the heavens and earth are signs for the believers.
And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures
are signs for people who are certain .
And the alternation of night and day
and what Allah sends down from the sky of provision
and gives life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness
and directing of the winds
are signs for a people who reason.
These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth.
Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?
453-6

This is because . . .

Allah has stated in unambiguous terms that belief in Him comes through the study of nature and its laws. If studying natural law does not lead one to believe in Allah, then nothing else can. This astounding declaration illustrates the importance of studying natural phenomena. Real belief based on reason can only be achieved through this method.

Yes, "real belief based on reason can only be achieved through this method". . acquiring true knowledge.

It is not just that, but . . . those who follow that path will find out how Allah will reveal Himself.

The Quran describes the setup of the universe and follows by saying that meeting with Allah is possible. It indicates that if you want Allah to reveal himself to you then you have to study the universe, scrutinize every object in it, and through observation and experiment, discover the laws governing this system. Thus all the mysteries of Nature will be unlocked one by one and you will gain insight into how Allah is sustaining this universe. This is what meeting and ?seeing? Allah means. As far as the entity of Allah is concerned, He is beyond the comprehension of human minds, let alone sense-perception. Seeing or meeting Him does not refer to the physical sense, it means gaining knowledge of how the universe functions and is regulated by Him. It is clear that according to the Quran, only those who observe natural phenomena can know how Allah runs the universe.

Therefore it is clear that according to the Quran, only those who observe natural phenomena can know how Allah runs the universe.

It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you see;
then He established Himself above the Throne
and made subject the sun and the moon,
each running for a specified term. He arranges matter;
He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain.
132

Contradictorily. . .

People who have been unaware of these signs in the universe have their doubts about seeing proof of Allah. In fact they would not have to go very far to do so; the study of any object in the universe can provide evidence for the workings of Allah?s laws. The rabubiyat order is not tied to any one thing but encompasses the whole of the universe ?Indeed, are they in doubt concerning the meeting with Allah? It is He who controls all things.? (41/54)

. . .

SECOND PART Once we identified the knowledge (ie."scientific knowledge&quot and barriers . . one must then becoming a muttaqeen (absolute obedience to Allah) in order to observe natural phenomena.

Therefore, this requires "spirituality" and "consciousness"; ie. free ourselves from shirk.

It is clear that according to the Quran, only those who observe natural phenomena can know how Allah runs the universe. It is a long, arduous process which sometimes requires scaling the highest peaks of the Himalayas, diving to the bottomless depths of the Atlantic, bearing the scorching heat of the Saharan dessert, and doing research in the bone chilling cold of the North Pole. This kind of research is only carried out by those who are not satisfied with what they know at present; those who look beyond the horizon and strive for more knowledge. The Quran says, ?Verily, in the alteration of the night and day, and in all that Allah has created, in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who are devoted believers (muttaqeen).? (10/6)

Contradictictorily, ie those who are not the muttaqeen

Indeed, those who do not expect the meeting with Us
and are satisfied with the life of this world
and feel secure therein
and those who are heedless of Our signs
107

Therefore . . .

These verses offer a cause for the cyclical rise and fall of nations. Those who are satisfied with the status quo and do not strive for improvement and a better future are devoid of thought and action; they fall from grace and are left far behind in the struggle of life. In contrast, those nations that work hard to develop new inventions and make new discoveries surge far ahead. Because of their initiative and well directioned hard work, nature rewards them by revealing its hidden treasures.

and that's why. . .

On the other hand, there are European nations with very little land but with so much production capabilities that they not only provide for local needs but they even manage to export surplus food. This is due to the fact that they are perpetually laboring in accordance with the laws of nature in order to take advantage of its hidden treasures. It is a divine law that the livelihoods of those who eschew the laws of Allah continuously diminish (20/124). This law is universal and there are no exceptions. Muslims have been shunning this law for centuries; as if this were not enough, we also have not put our senses to proper use and have been thus divested of these faculties. We have fallen into the category of those people whose ?hearts, ears, and eyes have become useless, and they do not take heed.? (16/10

Consequently . . .

And whoever turns away from My remembrance - indeed,
he will have a depressed life
and We will gather him on the Day of Resurrection blind."
20124

. . .

THIRD PART Therefore, what is the conditions for becoming an ulama , accordingly a True Believer and a Muslim ?

Firstly. . .

i) Knowledge is only that which can be verified by the human senses and mind

Secondly. . .

ii) Use of the senses means to observe natural phenomena, study the laws of nature, carry out consistent research, and experience the revelation of Allah?s laws that run the universe and provide systematic sustenance, growth, and development.

Such practice is the hallmark of believers in general and the duty of muttaqeen in particular. This is zikr-o-fikr i-khudawandi, or following the laws of Allah. This behavior brings to light the hidden secrets of the universe and on the basis of knowledge we can say to our Rabb, ?You did not create anything in vain.?

Thirdly. . .

The critical factor is whether one uses the information according to the laws of Allah. So, there are two conditions in becoming a Mumin to gain knowledge from nature, and to use it according to the injunctions of Allah. The Quran demands that ?its system be accepted in its totality.? (2/20 A nation that does not meet both of these criteria cannot be Mumin, and since Muslims fail regarding the first condition, we cannot claim to be Mumin.

In order to use the forces of nature in accordance with Allah?s laws it is absolutely necessary to study the Quran because these laws are contained within it. Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge conduct affairs of the state according to Allah?s injunctions because they know ?if any fail to judge by the light what Allah has revealed, they are no better than the unbelievers.? (5/44)

and that's why . . .

In contrast, Western nations do not fulfill the second criterion; thus, on a practical level, Muslims and western non-Muslims are in the same position.

Additionally. . . spirituality, consciousness. . ie. iqra. (kenal diri)

This is not all that must be done. Allah has stated that there is testimony to the truth of Quranic claims in the form of signs provided by Him in the universe.

We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves
until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth <- spirituality and iqra, kenal diri.
But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
4153

. . .

FIFTH PART Therefore, who is the ulama . . . accordingly who is the True Believers and Muslims ?

By knowing this it is easy to figure out who, according to the Quran, is a knowledgeable person and what the term actually means. The Quran has even explained this fact so there is no confusion

Do you not see
that Allah sends down rain from the sky <- all the subjects to describe ulama are related to science
and We produce thereby fruits of varying colors?
And in the mountains are tracts,
white and red of varying shades and extremely black.
And among people
and moving creatures
and grazing livestock
are various colors similarly.
Only those fear Allah , from among His servants
who have knowledge (ulama).
Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Forgiving.
35.27-28

as we can se, all the subject to describe an ulama is related to science. . .

These two verses deal with different parts of the universe, different branches of nature, and different fields of science. Physics, botany, zoology, and the humanities are all touched upon. The knowledgeable persons are awestruck because their insight has convinced them of His power and Wisdom in controlling the universe perfectly.

Therefore, the Quran defined the ulama as follow

The Quran has referred to those people as ulema, and in modern terminology they are called scientists.

This is because . .

These are the people who study nature and after observation and consistent experimentation, conquer the forces of nature. Allah has put the forces of nature under our control, but only those who know the laws can manipulate these forces. The only way to become one of the ulema is to acquire this knowledge.

and accordingly . . . the Mumineen and Muttaqeen is. . .

it is evident that, according to the Quran, the Mumineen, Muttaqeen, those who abide by and keep Allah?s laws in sight, and those who have faith and long to ?meet? with Allah, are people who study the universe and perform practical research on the objects therein as well as the forces of nature. The experience thus gained is called knowledge, and the Quran calls those who have this knowledge ulema.

. . .

LAST PART Comparision with current definition of ulama.

First. . .

They do not know the fundamentals of natural sciences, and their knowledge is limited to theoretical discussions and verbal emendations.

Second. . .

These discussions are mostly related to issues that have no bearing on the universe or the practical life of people.

Third. . .

The curriculum of religious schools is spread over ten years during which students study logic, philosophy, rhetoric, grammar, literature, etc, most of which is outdated.

Fourth. . .

They also learn about astronomy, geometry, and arithmetic, which are also outdated.

Fifth . . .

It is curious to note that the study of the Quran is not included in the curriculum. A certain exegesis (Jilalain) is taught that consists of only synonyms of the Quranic words. In the last year of study an exegesis of the second chapter of the Quran is taught (Bazadi). This is the education upon completion of which they receive certification for becoming an aalim (knowledgeable person).

Sixth. . .

law making has fallen victim to the same ignorant judgments

example. . .

The Mufti then gave his verdict in favor of the use of loudspeakers. However, another aalim, Mufti Mohammad Shafee, a senior teacher in the religious academy of Deoband, published a verdict in a magazine in which the use of the devices for prayer was declared unlawful. He wrote that he did not know the nature of the device and how it worked. He sought information from the science teacher, Mr. Brij Nandan Lal of Alexander High School of Bhopal, and the teacher said, ?Because of the use of electrical power I am hesitant to believe that the sound is original, and find it hard to deny it either because to prove otherwise is equally difficult.? After this ?exhaustive research? and on the basis on conjecture from a non-Muslim, a Muslim aalim decided that it was the decree of Allah and His prophet to forbid the use of loudspeakers. This illustrates nicely how ignorant the ulema are in matters natural and modern science; it is ironic that they still retain the ability to issue verdicts (fatwas) on them

I must say, that it is quite embarrassing having those people as the Ulama of Islam.

The truth, they are in fact not the ulama, but the "ignorant" (+ Ahlul Kitab) and know nothing about science and the law of nature etc . . .

Consequently . . .

And whoever turns away from My remembrance - indeed,
he will have a depressed life ... <- or depressed ummah, depressed nation, depressed country etc. . .
and We will gather him on the Day of Resurrection blind."
20124

JavaLatte

Peace,

I have felt this before too.

God bless you

Yeah, need extra patience to deal with him. ;D

Thank you, brother.

May God bless you too.

Peace.

JavaLatte

Is this the answer to the issue or it is merely ad hominem?

That is my reminder to you.

You often preach by using plenty-long posts,

but I wonder Where are your PRACTICES? Your actual applications?

How can you uphold peace if you love provoking others and making others get upset.

If you do support peace, why not trying your best to reconcile between conflicting parties, to extinguish the fire of dispute, but unfortunately you're more like someone who lit the fire.

If you truly practice lessons in the Qur'an, perhaps you'll become humble person.

Peace.