ALL SALAT TIMES ACORDING TO QURAN
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Peace Sabeel Ameer,
This is likely a wishful interpretation by those in the past who read it. It says standing, kneeling and prostrating in the verse you referred to, but there is no bow down there. However I get what you are saying. There is no doubt that one is supposed to formally perform something for God in the context of The Book. People have prostrated and bowed down in all times. It was not only done to God in the past but also as a courteous greeting to someone of respect.
However, the idea of repeating the same words over and over again is of Pagan origin and that is not what prayer (or Communion) is about. Keeping rakat is only a distracting repetitive measure that will make one lose focus on the real purpose of the Communion.
But to kneel down and then lower your head once or twice well that is up to the servant of God, and the same is with what Shia Muslims call Qunut, which I do when I read hymns. I read each hymn once and only two in total. In my case I read the Jesus' prayer and the hymn from the first chapter of The Book. But that is my preference. Your devotion is what counts and know that salat=communication and getting nearer to God. Dare to speak to Him and socialize like a real being and not like God would be a neanderthal god you have to please by ritualistically performing a certain sequence like in video adventure games where you have to perform something in an exact manner to "trigger" a door to open. There is a comprehensive meaning why you perform the Communion and not only to brainlessly perform some set of movements.
If as you say there shouldn't be no counting of rounds, Do you mean that 1) only one round, no more. or 2) we can do these rounds as many as we like in a single salat ?
Well. The optimal scenario would be to stand in prayer for hours per day. No real necessity to count, but all the efforts to seek the "face" of God is what means everything. But you can glorify God by carrying out His will and this can be counted as an extended prayer. Simply remembering The Lord during your daily life is a Communion, and if you speak to God as if He was there is a Communion. Sometimes I continue a phrase in my daily life "... right my Lord?" or "isn't it my Lord?" as if God was within the same room as I am (which He in fact is.. unseen rotfl). People may think I am mentally ill if they come across me talking to The Lord.
Many people read prayers in Arabic while they do not understand a word of what they are saying and it seems foreign to them as if God would only accept this language or does not know other languages. It is neanderthal god warning over that.
But what i cant neglect is that there is a 3 time prayer everyday.
No. I cannot get around the three counts of salat per day either even if I have put it into much testing lately. The disputed verse is the one with as-salah al-wusta and if it does not mean middle communion. Disregarding that verse there is another verse which talks about before sunset.
20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and at the approach of the night - you shall glorify - and at parts of the day, perhaps you may be content.
And why was Solomon upset over something that the sun had set in the horizon? Dawn Communion is hardly missed, it would take a lot to miss communing immediately when you get up, but Solomon forgot to perform a Communion before the sun was down.
3831 When, before evening, well trained horses were displayed before him.
3832 He said ?I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; until it had set beyond the horizon!?In this verse, Qaloo, yaa shuaib, assalaathuka....Here 'assalathuka' - your salat- here salath cant be the 3 times prayer but its meaning should be 'your God's law system'. There are other verses too indicating that the meaning of 'salat' does not ends in the daily 3 times prayer.
Exactly. Thanks for your brainworks. It is a hint for the reader of The Book about the nature of the word salat. This also goes in symbiosis with another instance where birds perform salat or that disbelievers are told to perform salat.. or be killed...
Of course this does not make any sense from a traditional viewpoint, but when you look beyond the sectarian understanding of the word salat then a whole new depth of understanding emerges.
But salat, in practice, is simply communicating with God, submitting to His will and talking to Him.
My understanding of the verse with Shu'ayb is however that because salat is communication with The Lord and they ask him if God, through Communion, tells Shu'ayb orders.
God bless you
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peace MofF,
3831 When, before evening, well trained horses were displayed before him.
3832 He said ?I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; until it had set beyond the horizon!?That translation is disputed, see
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=38&verse=31#(38311) -
Peace Wakas,
I thank you for your efforts. I wish the understanding of The Book to be as exact as possible, but it does not give the right interpretation either. I agree that the Arabic is difficult to interpret in the verse, even for Arabic scholars.
Is there any trouble with the translation of 20130 too?
Nevertheless, since in my understanding it leans towards the existence of a prayer during daylight hours historically, I cannot exclude this from my agenda. I have discarded two prayers during daylight hours completely, but I have felt that there is one between dawn and dusk, particularly some hours before sunset.
If someone can once and for all knock the daylight prayers off the chart then I would of course reconsider, but till then I take it as (at least) one timing from dawn to dusk.
It is "extra-quranic", but in the Bible there is a reference to the "three o'clock" prayer. Hardly proof, but I channel all sources of information.
Brother Wakas, I have studied much of your material where you analyze and comprehensibly go through the verses and a lot makes sense. But I have a critical approach to all I read so I suppose you understand I am not just suddenly adopting new ideas on such as sensitive topic as this. That we have a scripture that people can barely read is a reason you have to be cautious.
In my (current) world there are three "prayers" (if you can call them that), but people have sufficiently convinced me that there are not 4 or 5 prayers. Praying during the night is not of what is mandatory, and asr', dhuhr and maghrib prayers seem to only be invented names and no "fixed" prayer during daylight hours but to the discretion of the servant of God.
Prayers (or communication/bonding) during morning and evening/approaches of the night seem to be quite given from the context of The Book. It is that blasted "middle" prayer that is difficult to nail down. It is only circumstantial "evidence' that points towards its existence since al-wusta is a vague definition and cannot currently be used as proof.
Can you translate the verse with al-wusta to how it should read out in comprehensible English?
God bless you
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peace,
I thank you for your efforts. I wish the understanding of The Book to be as exact as possible, but it does not give the right interpretation either. I agree that the Arabic is difficult to interpret in the verse, even for Arabic scholars.
I personally do not think the Arabic in 3831-32 is difficult. For example in 3832-33 the reference is to a feminine object. The word "shams" (sun) which is a feminine object is not even mentioned in chapter 38, thus any translation referring to sun is likely incorrect.
I am writing part 2 of the article on sabih which will cover 20130
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=20&verse=130#(201301)With regard to 2238-239, see my translation and comments here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966
And from http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg230280#msg230280In my view, in addition to what I have already said, it simply means whilst one is guarding/preserving bonds (in life there are many), remember to guard/preserve the most balanced bond, and that is to God and His system etc. If this is done, then all other bonds will inevitably be straightened and preserved etc, and even when in fear, then it goes onto discuss death of spouse etc.
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Peace on you too Man of faith
but there is no bow down there
isnt ruku - bowing down ?
In my case I read the Jesus' prayer and the hymn from the first chapter of The Book.
i recite bismi (961, 738, 8714,15), and aoodubillahi...(169 and then fathiha (1587) which is not a must. And then 17110,111. And in tashahud the last 3 verses of surat 37 but starts with subhana rabbee rabbil...
The optimal scenario would be to stand in prayer for hours per day
Day time is for occupations, so its not pratical in daytime (737) And in night, God has commanded to recite whats easy from Quran and make the salat easy.(7320) So how's hours of prayer is optimal ?
ritualistically performing a certain sequence.
In 4102, prophet(as) and companions are doing a certain sequence ?
Exactly. Thanks for your brainworks.
Its not my brainworks.I dont know arabic. I read it in a book in a website. I'd ve posted the link here but its not in english. That writer completely disapprove that 'salat' is the 3 time 'sequence prayer'(which's am not able to agree) Instead its 'God's law system'. He explains it with its 1)grammatical side and 2)in context with the Quran. I dont know grammar to check the grammer side but, here's some example in the context of Quran in a few words.
2241 (saheeh international)
those who, if We give them authority in the land, establish prayer and give zakah and enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong. And to Allah belongs the outcome of matters.-no need for authority in land to do ritualistic prayer or communion/bonding but authority in land is needed to establish 'God's law system/God's judicial system/the ideology' in the land.
1437
Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful.-no need to go to the uncultivated land suffering difficulties to establish the sequence prayer or communion. It could have been done in their homes they're already staying.
Same with 1440. And then he explains the salaths of other prophets - which was to establish God's judicial order on the earth. Some more verses,
7170
But those who hold fast to the Book and establish prayer - indeed, We will not allow to be lost the reward of the reformers.-hold fast to the book means live according to the book and establish salat is establish the God's judicial system in practice in the society.
243
And establish prayer and give zakah and bow with those who bow .-So when we establish the sequence salat, we are already makes ruku/bow, and then we are commanded again to do an another ruku ?
557
O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should be believers.-So the ahlul kitaab is ridiculing the deen/religion. in the next verse,
558
And when you call to prayer, they take it in ridicule and amusement. That is because they are a people who do not use reason.-here the word salat is used instead of the word deen/religion in the previous verse. here the christians are ridiculing the God's law system/the ideology of Islam, not the sequence prayer.
In sura 74, the people of heaven will ask about the people in hell why they are in hell. They will reply "They will say, "We were not of those who prayed,(salat) (7443)
-So the pharao, the pagan arabs, other disbeliving people,The Jews and romans that Isa fought against etc are in hell because they did not do the sequence prayer/communion or are they in hell because of they followed an unjust judicial system which looted the common people ? They were reluctant to follow the just God's law system.
The book is a long one.But i cant fully agree with it, because it affect the 3 time prayer..And also doesnt seem right in the verses which promotes the original sequence prayer.But i also came into thinking that the salat has an extensive meaning which is more than the sequence prayer.I wish if it was in English, so you and others in this site can read it and tell me your opinions and objections.
Anyway now i am looking at 3 concepts of salat. 1) the prayer with certain sequence. 2)communion/bonding with no uniform sequences or movements 3)God's law system/the ideology.
So when salat is the 3 time prayer,
The salat's mission/aim is the exaltation and praising of Allah. So what we should do in salat is tasbeeh.
We should do our personal duas after the salat ? -
....(continued from the above post)
(saheeh international translations)
Quran 2218
Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.Quran 621
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is exalting Allah , the Sovereign, the Pure, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.Quran 2441
Do you not see that Allah is exalted by whomever is within the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings spread ? Each has known his prayer and exalting , and Allah is Knowing of what they do.So everythings on heavens and earth, every animals, birds, moon, stars, creatures etc are doing sujood and tasbeeh.
The animals, birds, sun etc are not doing the physical sujood and reciting tasbeeh. They are following the God's law system. The sun's rising in the east, the creatures are doing its activites etc all according to God's law system. Thats how they are doing sujood and tasbeeh. -
Peace Sabeel Ameer,
Day time is for occupations, so its not pratical in daytime (737) And in night, God has commanded to recite whats easy from Quran and make the salat easy.(7320) So how's hours of prayer is optimal ?
Well. It depends on how pious you are. If God is worth your salt then you could as well be in Communion/prayer for hours a day. God is what is carries any real value in this life anyway, and the Believers you ally with of course, but possessions are only temporary so there is no reason to aim at getting rich. Even better is that if you become close to God the possessions/blessings will come sort of automatically.
You can praise The Lord, but the best way of praising The Lord is to do good deeds and be just. Hymns to salute God are a way of doing that, as in the traditional way of praying where you read a short recitation and then either bow down, kneel or prostrate, or all of them at the same time. It is the purpose you are after and not that they are exactly performed in a sequence.
In 4102, prophet(as) and companions are doing a certain sequence ?
What I mean is that salat/communication with God serve a purpose and are just to seek Guidance with God as well as glorification. Reading al-fatiha is an example of glorification. But it is not a brain dead ritual which is just done in a repeated sequence parroting a lot of words. How can salat prevent immorality and vice by simply doing some brainless ritual?
2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the Book/Message and hold the contact prayer/Communion, for the contact prayer/Communion prohibits immorality and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
How can it do that if you do not seek Guidance from God while you perform Communion? You actively seek Guidance and help from God when you "pray".
Its not my brainworks.I dont know arabic. I read it in a book in a website. I'd ve posted the link here but its not in english. That writer completely disapprove that 'salat' is the 3 time 'sequence prayer'(which's am not able to agree) Instead its 'God's law system'. He explains it with its 1)grammatical side and 2)in context with the Quran. I dont know grammar to check the grammer side but, here's some example in the context of Quran in a few words.
I meant that you said something that was good to philosophize upon.
Salat is indeed an interesting word, I have used the definition "Mindfulness" in the past, like "establish mindfulness" (of God). It means indeed contact, connection, bond, etc, but it is difficult to pinpoint the perfect translation.
God bless you
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1 the middle prayer
2 at morn and at afternoon
3 at the beginning and the end of the day (dawn-dusk), as well as during the early watches of the night
4 when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and recitation at dawn
5 and pray during part of the night , as a free offering from thee
6 and praise Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and extol His glory, too, during some of the hours of the night as well as during the ends of the day (dawn-dusk)
7 the evening hours, and when you rise at morn(dawn-dusk)
8 in the afternoon as well, and when the hour of noon
9 and praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and in the night, too, extol His glory, and at every prayer's end
10 and praise whenever thou risest up, and extol His glory at night, and at the time when the stars retreat.
11 the whole night1 dawn (exacting time)
2 morning (unspecified time of it)
3 noon(exacting time)
4 afternoon (unspecified time of it)
5 dusk(exacting time)
6 night (early hours of it, or all night)http//i57.tinypic.com/3344rnm.png
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http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/
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http//i59.tinypic.com/2lx77m0.jpg
CORRECTION
Dusk Prayer = Golden Hour + Evening Twilight
Dawn Prayer = Morning Twilight + Golden Hour
Dusk Prayer ( ا
Start at The Sun's Flattening (ie. Before Sunset, the start of the Golden Hour)
Finish at The Night's Diffusion (ie. Astronomical Dusk, the end of Evening Twilight)Consequently
Dawn Prayer ( ر
Start at Dawn (ie. Astronomical Dawn, the start of Morning Twilight)
Finish at The Sun's Flattening (ie. After Sunrise, the end of the Golden Hour)
SLM
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A nice collection of verses there.
I think for the mainstream Muslims it is before sunrise, noon, afternoon, after sunset, night, and then an extra one in the early morning or deep night.
