Understanding the story of Lot and homosexuality

huruf

Peole are not animals who just let themselves be led by their physical impulses, neither with people of the same sex nor with people of different sex.

And that is one problem with applying Lut's history to determining how much does God condemn "homosexuality" because if we take it as that, we would come to the conclusion that what they did wrong was choosing the sex and not the raping and the violence and the use of other human beings for their beastly purposes, or had they done that to people of the other sex would have been better and moral? In fact some people from reading Lut's words interpret that in fact Lut did offer his daughters or feminine followers to the rapers, was he condoning raping and beastliness provided it was not done to men but to women? Like good rapers rape women, not men?

That is the big objection, or one big objection that I find when applying Lut's history to condemn homosexuality and it is that by the same token they approve of violence on women and the use of women as a legitimate usable object for lusts and bestiality of males. Disgusting, in fact I find that more disgusting than their preying on males.

So we should know what we are talking about. In the Qur'an God's gives males the task of taking care of women with their wealth and male partners of women to respect them and pay them and honour them, but aside of the history of Lut I do not see that the Qur'an goes into the question of "homosexuality". If anybody sees anything like that anywhere, please point it out.

May be it is as plain as that homosexuality or heteresexuality in fact do not exist, but are simply cultural figments.

There are, I know, and I am sure of it, very few people who do have physically border characteristics from the point of view of physiollogy and chemistry, they are neither fully females or fully male sor they are partly females and partly males. That is like people who have six fingers or siamese siblings or anything out of the norm. They are a very hard trial for the people who happen to have that conformation. All that can be done is take them as they are and be compassionate for their plight, because if it is already a trial for "normal" people to wade through the cultural conventions and idiocies of societies concerning sex, for a people like them it must be hell.

Other than that "homo" or "hetero" may be compulsive for some people, but it is nto because of their "natural" urges but because of other circumstances, most of the time emotional that set their survival instincts to atune to their emotional conditions. It is very easy to not do anything about the causes of things and simply decide that as you are you are right because it is "natural". Some things may be unavoidable, but not because they are "natural" but because whatever, but if they are unavoidable, they are unavoidable and the last thing one should do is punish oneself because of unavoidability on topp of suffering already that unavoidability. But another firs thing one should not do is kid oneself as to the reason or causes for whatever one does. It only confuses isues and comlicate things making them unsolvable, because one rejects investigating and finding out.

Feeling attraction to whatever may no be a sin but not wanting to know and wanting to cling to ignorance for lack of courage is an error, and errors always come back with a vengeance.

So I do not agree that people get comfort in this oversimplification of assuming that people are "naturally" attracted to one sex or the other and do not take any interest in their own beings and motives and identity because they already have their alibi for doing what comes EASIER for them. Good thigns are not necessarily easier in the short run, but on the long run are far more satisfactory.

This artificial division between "homos" and "heteros", as far as I am concerned, is crap. It is just social and intellectual laziness disguised largeness of spirit or tolerance.

It is not about condemning or approving anything, it is about knowing oneself and helping others, respectfully and without trespassing on their intimacy, to know themselves.

Salaam

Bigmo

IMPORTANT!

When Science is Context Three Questions Show
The Men of the Quranic Lot Story
Are Heterosexual men not Homosexual men

Introduction

Today, there are many studies showing sexual orientation is not environmentally influenced, but rather individuals are born with a sexual orientation.

See Parts I-IX Below

Applying these studies as an element of context within the Quranic Lot story, the story shows a condemnation of lustful homosexual acts of heterosexual men, and not a condemnation of homosexual acts of homosexual men. In other words, and the thesis of this short article, the men of the Quranic Lot story are heterosexual men not homosexual men. To support this thesis, I will share three commonsensical questions that must be asked about the Quranic Lot story when these studies become part of the story's context.

First Question

The first question that must be asked when these studies become part of the context is found in the Quran verse 781. The verse states,

". . . with lust you approach men instead of women . . ."

(Quran 781, M. Asad)

As seen, this verse uses ?instead of.? This usage shows the men of the Quranic Lot story are heterosexual men. How? Because the question that must be asked with science as context Can homosexual men approach women ?instead of? men?

Second Question

The second question that must be asked when these studies become part of the context is found in the Quran verse 1178. The verse states,

". . . Said "O my people! these daughters of mine they are purer for you ! . . ."

(Quran 1178, M. Asad)

As seen, this verse states that Lot offered his daughters to these men. This offering shows the men of the Quranic Lot story are heterosexual men. How? Because the question that must be asked with science as context Would Lot offer homosexual men his daughters?

Third Question

The third question that must be asked when these studies become part of the context is found in the Quran verse 26166. The verse states,

"keeping yourselves aloof from all the spouses whom your Sustainer has created for you? . . ."

(Quran 26166, M. Asad)

As seen, this verse states God created spouses for these men. This creating of spouses for these men shows the men of the Quranic Lot story are heterosexual men. How? Because the question that must be asked with science as context Would God create women for homosexual men?

Conclusion

When science is context, these three questions are enough to rightly question the long held belief that the Quranic Lot story is a condemnation of homosexual acts of homosexual men rather than a condemnation of lustful homosexual acts of heterosexual men.

Watch the videos and read.

The source
http//www.godists.com/articles/islam_when_science_is_context_three_questions_show_the_men_of_the_quranic_lot_story_are_heterosexual_men_not_homosexual_men

"2929] "You sexually approach men, you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say, "Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!"

"You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"

"Do you approach the males of the worlds?"
"You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"
They said, "If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out."

He said, "I am in severe opposition to your acts!"

Does God approve of homosexuality? I think that's an obvious NO! Does that give us the right to go gay bashing on Friday night? No. It's between them and God. But no, it's not allowed.

How do you explain the verses I quoted above? If you're saying it's bad but not a sin... You may have a case (maybe). But if you're saying God is cool with Adam and Steve getting busy... I'd have to disagree. I don't think he's cool with it."

"2929] "You sexually approach men, you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say, "Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!"

"You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"

"Do you approach the males of the worlds?"
"You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"
They said, "If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out."

He said, "I am in severe opposition to your acts!"

In the Quran we are told

And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying) Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you - they wronged Us not, but they did wrong themselves. 2.57

And remember ye said "O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions." He said "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing. 2.61

Here we are told how the Israelites complained about the food and requested God to give them beans and vegetables when they already were given quail and manna. Moses commented on how the Israelites would prefare the veggies and beans over the meat and actually referred to it as inferior. This argument may make sense for most people but not for a vegetarian who would not see meat as a superior food to eat.

So a heterosexual may understand the verses you quoted. But a homosexual would not understand it that way since his attraction are not for females.

The issue with homosexuality is that its a behavior and not a character so it does not tell us anything about a person. Is this homosexual a believer or a non believer? Is he a righteous person or is he dishonest and selfish? Does he speaks truth when he speaks or is he a deceiver? Homosexuality does not tell us anything about a person except his sexual preference. Is he loyal to his male partner or does he commit adultery with other partners and exploits his partners and uses them? These questions shold be looked at when he look at any homosexual and not just look at his sexual preference only.

The Quran is concerned about a person's charachter and how it affects his behavior and not just his behavior regardless of his charachter. The same could be said about alcohol or smoking cigarettes or using recreational drugs. Too many times Muslims only look at behavior without considering the more important charachter of a person like arrogance, selfishness, misserliness, disloyalty and dishonesty and enviousness etc.

What i tried to point out is that homosexuals are not mainstream and represent a minority of males so sometimes we need to take that into account when we consider the Quran since the Quran sometimes talks to different audiences but generally it speaks to mankind as a whole. The Israelites were being stubborn while the people of Lot were being aggressive and violent and arrogant since they thought that they can rape whomever they want. Whether they were homosexuals or not we do not know. Its unlikely the Israelites were vegetarians but were probably just being stubborn so maybe the people of lot are just being assholes (excuse my language). But I believe both Moses and Lot were speaking as normal human beings would speak about food and sex. But like vegetarians, homosexuality is not mainstream. And how a homsexual would look at a women is very different than how most men would look at them. So we must take that into mind when we look at the verses of the Quran.

TheQuranAloneRevolution

Coming from a bi/gay Background, I choose not to act upon my desires and keep chaste. There is nothing un-Islamic about having sexual desires. The sin is however, in acting upon those desires. Sex outside of marriage is fornication (Zina). The fact is, most LGBT community do not have a form of spousal tie. Most change partners frequently, This is clearly ungodly. Yes of course God creates sin/sinners and righteous work, this is so he can test us, whether we choose to follow him, or follow desires/ego. I, as a reform muslim, who is attracted to both genders, choose to keep chaste until marriage, instead of acting upon carnal hedonistic desires. God did not ask for a change in the person, but rather a change in Character and conduct.

The Quran is very selective on whom we can marry and whom we cannot marry, We cannot marry women our father married, women from the same nursing mother, 2 sisters, Idol-worshiping women.... All of this help deduce that marriage is between men and women, because God set down standards to be ruled by, anyone who goes beyond the standard is wronging themselves, whether it is having intimate relationships with unlawful women, or men, or even animals, these are beyond the Standards, that is why God did not need to break down every single situation of marriage that can be allowed--He Simply set a standard, and what is beyond that standard is a sin.

Furthermore, I believe that nonsexual love and affection of the same gender is more of a coping mechanism for those who have attraction to the same gender. In many middle eastern countries/cultures for example, good friends desire a certain amount physical intimacy with each other. Friendships tend to be closer to the modern American concept of a "bromance" than the American concept of friendship. Men Kiss, hug, and hold hands while walking. This is considered a normal part of society. We all desire some level of love and affection, and seeking it in loving, affectionate, platonic (nonsexual), genuine, close relationships would be a coping method here, if one chooses to remain chaste.

419 "...If you hate your women, then perhaps you may hate something which God has endowed in it much goodness."

hawk99

Peace Family,

I seek refuge in GOD, from Satan the rejected
In the name of GOD, Most Gracious and Most Merciful

The people of Lot were vile, rape was but one of the offences, it was not a case of being born such and such
but entrenched criminal behavior of various sorts.

God bless

peace

huruf

I think that physical contact between people, touching, caressing without any sexual content is natural and necessary. However in today's society all physical contact has been restricted to the sexual. That is depriving people of an animal legitimate snese of well being like feeling physical closeness and intimacy other than sexual intimacy. It is a modern develoment. I remember when young, girls used to go hand in hand or arm in arm as the commonest thing and there was no hitn at all of any sexual content in it. equally people used to be effusive in physical expressions.

Today many many people have dogs and they say that one good thing about having a dog is that you have physical closeness, you touch the animal and it feels good.

I find that very funny. Not that I find anything wrong in being close to a dog and enjoying its touch, but to the fact that we shun physical closeness to people, but take refuge in closeness to animals. What are we playign at? There is nothign wrong with physical intimacy with those we love. I think that is rather the lack of that non sexual intimacy which helps today to fall into the trap of unbounded indiscriminate sex life, because sex life is the only way left for physical intimacy. So sex becomes the allpurposy physical relationship. We have been led like idiots into that trap.

Mammals rojoice in physical closeness, you just have to watch how the offspring of animals pile on top of each other just for the heck of it. Like being so close was the peak of wellbeing and comfort.

Salaam

hawk99

Peace Family,

Remember there were other societies that were destroyed because of their crimes, therefore the crimes
enunciated in the Quranic verses pertaining to those societies are unacceptable by God including homosexual
relations.

Coming from a bi/gay Background, I choose not to act upon my desires and keep chaste. There is nothing un-Islamic about having sexual desires. The sin is however, in acting upon those desires. Sex outside of marriage is fornication (Zina).
The Quran is very selective on whom we can marry and whom we cannot marry, We cannot marry women our father married, women from the same nursing mother, 2 sisters, Idol-worshiping women.... All of this help deduce that marriage is between men and women, because God set down standards to be ruled by, anyone who goes beyond the standard is wronging themselves, whether it is having intimate relationships with unlawful women, or men, or even animals, these are beyond the Standards, that is why God did not need to break down every single situation of marriage that can be allowed--He Simply set a standard, and what is beyond that standard is a sin.

Agreed

Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? "You forsake the wives that your Lord
has created for you! Indeed, you are transgressing people."

And GOD made for you spouses from among yourselves, and produced for you from your spouses
children and grandchildren, and provided you with good provisions. Should they believe in falsehood,
and turn unappreciative of GOD's blessings?

God bless

peace

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Peace Family,

Remember there were other societies that were destroyed because of their crimes, therefore the crimes
enunciated in the Quranic verses pertaining to those societies are unacceptable by God including homosexual
relations.
Agreed

Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? "You forsake the wives that your Lord
has created for you! Indeed, you are transgressing people."

And GOD made for you spouses from among yourselves, and produced for you from your spouses
children and grandchildren, and provided you with good provisions. Should they believe in falsehood,
and turn unappreciative of GOD's blessings?

God bless

peace

C'mon...it has been demonstrated seriously that homosexuality far predates the people of Lot. Is the Qur'an in error? Nah! The abomination is clearly something other than homosexual acts.

Not just men were destroyed from the people of Lot. Were the women and children spared, or likewise destroyed? Isn't this a clue?

There is also the thorny "problem" of homosexuality being common in nature...even among mosquitos.

226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

huruf

Yes, I insist that what the people of Lut did was not the mere fact of homosexual relations. Come to that, God should have destroyed the ancient greeks several times over.

What the people of Lut did would nto have been any better had they done to women what they did to males, would it? Part of the evilness seems to have been the fact of it being almost universal, except for the bunch of Lut's followers. Was Lut's wife also destroyed for aping males or females? It seems it was more for setting a standard of social mores that were beastly, violent, gangsters... A violent and mob behaviour so ingrained that nothing but doing away with them all would get them out of it. Greeks were commonly engaging in same sex relations all the time, but since they did not become universally violent on that coun, God let them go on.

All the confusion about the evilness of Lut's people seems to rest on Lut's words that seem to lead to the thought that had they done all those evil, beastly ganging and mobbing to women it would have been all right. But that cannot be the expplanation or we would be upholding a hell society. So it must be something else that Lut intended with his words. As far as I can weight the events as narrated by the Qur'an, he was buying time, and indeed, as the vents turned out, that is what he did indeed. Those silly comments of hinting at them trying something as "innocent" as raping women put off for a day the plans of his people, thus allowiing him and his followers to leave the city during the night and be spared. I very much doubt that he would have given away his daughters or female followers to be raped or that he had at any time any such intention. He put forward that offer in the trust that it would be rejected with contempt, as it indeed was.

So no, if we want hoosexual relations condemned int he Qur'an it must be supported by other ayas than those of the people of Lut, because the ayas on the people of Lut do not deal with that, but with a society that set sexual violence as a social standard.

Salaam

TheQuranAloneRevolution

Greetings and Peace, all group

C'mon...it has been demonstrated seriously that homosexuality far predates the people of Lot. Is the Qur'an in error? Nah! The abomination is clearly something other than homosexual acts.

Not just men were destroyed from the people of Lot. Were the women and children spared, or likewise destroyed? Isn't this a clue?

There is also the thorny "problem" of homosexuality being common in nature...even among mosquitos.

226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Peace,
Let me clarify

Lot was speaking to his people as a group & a community, not just isolated cases of homo-sexual-intimacy. This would be the reason why Lot states "No one has ever done before"..... We do not know of a community, before Lot's people, in the Quran that practiced widespread homosexual intimacy.
We cannot simply look at nature and derive what is sexually sound and moral and what isn't. Animals also have incest, homosexual behavior, multiple partners or orgies, you cannot look at that and justify that this is ok to also practice these, i.e just because it is found in "nature", does not guarantee a morally sound stamp on it.
God has specifically commanded us Laws about whom we can and whom we cannot marry, these laws cannot be understood without having a hetero-sex couple. If we superimpose 2 people from the same sex, these laws would be invalid, (e.g you cannot marry your mother or two sisters, but what about marrying your father or marrying two brothers ! ) Same Sex Marriage would thus not work if we superimpose the Quranic Marriage laws on top, because the standard was always between men and women, and, anything beyond that standard is a transgress.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

In the story of Lot it seems as if the people of Lot tried to get to the angels (that seem to look beautiful) and likely rape them and Lot seems to have offered his daughters instead (possibly to honor his guests). The primary crime could have been rape and from other narratives it is revealed that the people of Lot committed highway robbery. It could be that they looted the male travelers and raped them. The narration does not reveal if they spared female victims from rape.

We do not know God's view of when Lot offered his daughters as that was an individual decision.

Despite this I am sure from the recitation that homosexuality is not exactly a norm, but the gravest problem is that it was forced upon those they robbed. Homosexuality is against the anatomical design of the creation, and two men or two women do not complement each other. And it appears that homosexuality is despised by God through the narration.

God bless you

hawk99

I think that physical contact between people, touching, caressing without any sexual content is natural and necessary.
Today many many people have dogs and they say that one good thing about having a dog is that you have physical closeness, you touch the animal and it feels good.

Peace huruf,

As you are aware, physical contact, such as hugging and touching is far different from sex.

C'mon...it has been demonstrated seriously that homosexuality far predates the people of Lot. Is the Qur'an in error? Nah! The abomination is clearly something other than homosexual acts.

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

The people of lot rejected the messenger, as did those societies that were destroyed before and after him!
Sodomy was but one of the entrenched crimes committed by the people Lot. Remember that there were
very few believers in the town.

Why do you choose to ignore this ayat? Is it a mistranslation? If so please let us know.

Lot said to his people, "You commit such an indecency; no one in the world has done it before!
"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

Not just men were destroyed from the people of Lot. Were the women and children spared, or likewise destroyed? Isn't this a clue?

Clue to what? no need being cryptic, please explain.

God bless

peace

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

My comments are in red.

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

The people of lot rejected the messenger, as did those societies that were destroyed before and after him!
Sodomy was but one of the entrenched crimes committed by the people Lot. Remember that there were
very few believers in the town.

Why do you choose to ignore this ayat? Is it a mistranslation? If so please let us know.

Lot said to his people, "You commit such an indecency; no one in the world has done it before!
"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

How can I ignore it and address it at the same time? It is a glaring contradiction as translated. If it isn't a mistranslation, it is at least a poor one.

"No one in the world has done it before!" No one = NOT ONE. Existing physical evidence shows that homosexual acts long predate the people of Lot. Cave paintings over 10,000 years old depict it. There is also evidence that it was common in Mesopotamia circa 3000 BCE--over a thousand years before the people of Lot were destroyed (1953 BCE). Mesopotamia was a society, or "people." Also, a more accurate translation is probably

'Will you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you? For you come in lust to men in preference to women. No, you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds'

To which I would comment that approaching anyone for lust is indecent. It is the approaching for lust that is a transgression, and the fact that it is men approaching men makes it incredulous.

Clue to what? no need being cryptic, please explain.

Did the women and children practice sex with the men instead of the women? Why were the women and children among the people of Lot destroyed along with the men? It is beyond reason to suppose that they were ALL transgressing in homosexual acts--something else was going on. Benefitting from highway robbery, perhaps?

2929 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"

5338 None can carry the burdens of another.

God bless

peace

Let me put a few questions in sequence to the reader. For the sake of discussion, suppose that the people of Lot are being destroyed solely for homosexual acts

Was the transgression of the people of Lot individual or communal?
If communal, how does this in any way impact individual acts, especially in the here and now? )
If individual, how is this reconciled with existing physical evidences that the same acts had taken place long before? hmm

If the questions aren't valid, it is hard to get good answers. Look at the evidences and then make an informed decision.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

I find nothing in the Qur'an that tells me that either homosexuality or homosexual acts in themselves are despised--and certainly nothing that tells me to treat other people differently based on their sexual preferences/orientation.

6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

TheQuranAloneRevolution

Greetings and Peace, all group

My comments are in red.

Let me put a few questions in sequence to the reader. For the sake of discussion, suppose that the people of Lot are being destroyed solely for homosexual acts

Was the transgression of the people of Lot individual or communal?
If communal, how does this in any way impact individual acts, especially in the here and now?
If individual, how is this reconciled with existing physical evidences that the same acts had taken place long before? hmm

If the questions aren't valid, it is hard to get good answers. Look at the evidences and then make an informed decision.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

I find nothing in the Qur'an that tells me that either homosexuality or homosexual acts in themselves are despised--and certainly nothing that tells me to treat other people differently based on their sexual preferences/orientation.

6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Lot was speaking to his people as a group & a community, not just isolated cases of homo-sexual-intimacy. This would be the reason why Lot states "No one has ever done before"..... We do not know of a community, before Lot's people, in the Quran that practiced widespread homosexual intimacy.

Your women are like a Fruit-bearing Crop. You may come to them (I.E Have sex with women), in anyway you want, so long as you maintain righteousness..." (2223)

God created the anatomical penis that would produce sperm, and the only rightful place that sperm belongs is in the anatomical vagina. You need to be married in order to have sex, and there is no mention of Same sex marriage in the Quran
I state again,
3) God has specifically commanded us Laws about whom we can and whom we cannot marry, these laws cannot be understood without having a hetero-sex couple. If we superimpose 2 people from the same sex, these laws would be invalid, (e.g you cannot marry your mother or two sisters, but what about marrying your father or marrying two brothers ! ) Same Sex Marriage would thus not work if we superimpose the Quranic Marriage laws on top, because the standard was always between men and women, and, anything beyond that standard is a transgress.

Show me one piece of evidence of Marriage Contract (Nikaah, Zawaaj) is between two men or two women from the Quran.... can two brothers marry each other, or a brother and a father? what about two men from the same nursing mother, explain the mariage laws & prohibitions in 423

Sincerely,
A concerned, chaste Individual.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

My comments are in red for easy reading.

Lot was speaking to his people as a group & a community, not just isolated cases of homo-sexual-intimacy.

Great! This means this example is NOT a valid reason to bother individuals.

This would be the reason why Lot states "No one has ever done before"..... We do not know of a community, before Lot's people, in the Quran that practiced widespread homosexual intimacy.

Maybe not in the Qur'an, but such societies have existed. Mesopotamia comes to mind...

Your women are like a Fruit-bearing Crop. You may come to them (I.E Have sex with women), in anyway you want, so long as you maintain righteousness..." (2223)

This applies to women, no mention is made of men. If you want to split hairs, two men or two women can't even have sex together--call it what you will, but it isn't ~really~ sex in a biological sense.

God created the anatomical penis that would produce sperm, and the only rightful place that sperm belongs is in the anatomical vagina.

Actually, the penis does not produce sperm--you mean the testicles. The only "rightful place" is a matter of opinion. But are you arguing that men that don't produce sperm can have sexual relations with any willing participant, or that such people must cease all sexual relations? The argument that sexual acts revolve around sperm is ludicrous.

You need to be married in order to have sex, and there is no mention of Same sex marriage in the Quran

Maybe there ~is~ mention of same sex marriage in AQ. It would seem that many of the translations are skewed towards a traditional understanding rather than literally translated. For instance, the use of "spouse" instead of the more accurate "mates." I don't really see why the Qur'an would mention same-sex marriage anyway, because it has little to do with the Deen--that is what AQ is about, yes?

I state again,
3) God has specifically commanded us Laws about whom we can and whom we cannot marry, these laws cannot be understood without having a hetero-sex couple. If we superimpose 2 people from the same sex, these laws would be invalid, (e.g you cannot marry your mother or two sisters, but what about marrying your father or marrying two brothers ! ) Same Sex Marriage would thus not work if we superimpose the Quranic Marriage laws on top, because the standard was always between men and women, and, anything beyond that standard is a transgress.

There is no mention of many things in AQ. We are told that we would hate to eat the flesh of our dead brother, but cannibalism is not specifically forbidden. I care little for traditional standards, that is like saying that one will follow what a father followed. We are told to avoid sin, what is evident and what is subtle, and that covers many extremes. I'm not sure that same sex incestuous marriage is/was/is likely to ever even be an issue, ISA! I call strawman on the same sex incest marriage argument.

Show me one piece of evidence of Marriage Contract (Nikaah, Zawaaj) is between two men or two women from the Quran.... can two brothers marry each other, or a brother and a father? what about two men from the same nursing mother, explain the mariage laws & prohibitions in 423

No need. Take a look at the connected 424...

Sincerely,
A concerned, chaste Individual.

Concerned? confused Why be concerned about something very unlikely?

424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not? Yes or no, please.

235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341097#msg341097

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

huruf

I am not sure the term aszwaj in the Qur'an can be given any meaning. As i have said previously, the relevance of any sexual relations between people of different sex is the fact the reeproduction of the species comes from that, therefore it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, it is not a choice for the species collectively as such, since it is so, it is only logical and understandable that the Qur'an, that any real revelation should put so much stress, should speak so long and should go into detail regarding that kind of relationship, because without that there is no humanity.

Sexual doings between any other kind of people or masturbation are absolutely inconsequential except at a private level. Lust as such evil inclination, like drunkardness, are social evils, since when we come to things like prostitution and seduction and rape and violence they are perversions that damage the individuals and the society. Desire is human and is good in itself, but acting regardless of the own wellbeing or the wellbeing of others is not good, but that is exactly what the people of Lut did. Humilliating by sex is a very much used tool of tyrany private and open. In fact as we well know, sex is a weapon. Or can be used as a weapon whcih come to the same.

I do not think that utting these kind of questions in the context of hetero or homo is of any use. We should put it into the context of reproduction and the honour and guarantees that should go to it. And in the context of private feelings and desires. Like many deseases have common symptoms but we cannot treat them the same, because the causes may be very different. We have to go in depth to find out which is the desease that causes those symptons and treat the disease if there is a treatment that does nto do more harm than the disease itself, but we cannot blanket and keep forever dealing with the symptoms. And sometimes there is no solution and we do have to live with a disease as best as we can.

Also why would be worse to be indecent with a person of the same sex than to be indecent with a person of different sex? If we use a person as a use and throw thing, does it make it better or worse that that person is of the same or of different sex? I do not think so.

I think that having a partner of different sex is more fulfilling because simly we contribute, or at least attempt to contribute to further the species. In fact it is holy bound, even if people say that sex is not marriage, the fact is that marriage is precisely that, the possibility of furthering the species, of worshiping the One through furthering the species He has created and which is entrusted to us. That is the sacredness of marriage, with or without papers, whether we feel that responsibility or not, in fact that is what it is.

That cannot happen no matter how much sex we may have with somebody of the same sex no matter how much we love him or her. Because that kind of sex is simly inconsequential. Brings no honour, means no "sacred" task, it is a personal private feeling and may be satisfaction but of no concern whatsoever to anybody else, except of course, that the persons involved might have other commitments and were cheating on them.

I do think that the Qur'an goes into that kind of thing because it is of no much consequence. The same as having a meal that we like very much may be very satisfactory or may be very harming and we may vomit or whatever, but that is no social consequence if we do not use other people for it. Why should the Qur'an bring sets of rules on the kinds of foods that we may eat or not. We get very general things, like the carrion, the pig, etc. But it doe snot get minute.

We get the same, do not get near fahisha. Do not demean yourself or make a gutter of you personal life, etc.

Again, homosexual sex is not the equivalent of heterosexual sex. Although when women are past the age of procreation in fact they are also beyond the procreation sex. At that age, also, whatever they do with their sexual life is of no much consequence. Does it mean that they could engage in whatever?

It means, just like any other person, one should not get near fahisha, for one's own sake, for others' sake. We are nto animals.

But the Qur'an does nto have to go into the minute. I think we all know erfectly well when we indulge in getting near fahisha and when we do not. What happens is that we are all traumatised by over moralizing or over trivialising and we do not keep a healthful balance in our attitude to somethign that in itself is nto complicated. We make it so.

Salaam

hawk99

My comments are in red for easy reading.

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

Commenting inside the box does not make your reply easier to read, please comment outside of the box
if possible.

424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not? Yes or no, please.

Are you saying that 4/24 makes homosexual marriage legal? nope

From you

This applies to women, no mention is made of men. If you want to split hairs, two men or two women can't even have sex together--call it what you will, but it isn't ~really~ sex in a biological sense.

If not sex, what do you call it.

By the way, The surah you quote is "The Women".

The context is such

Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage?if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time?but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

God bless

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace hawk99,

Are you saying that 4/24 makes homosexual marriage legal? nope

That is right, my brother. The relationship is intended to follow God's design and the way God is formulating Himself indicates that it is supposed to be followed in that manner.

For the individual it is difficult to understand the issue of homosexuality in people and why it emerges so discussing the dilemma is hard as it is nearly impossible to reach a consensus without further scientific discoveries about the phenomenon. It seems as if homosexuality is innate in some people, i.e. they were born that way without their own will to be that way, but it could also be an own internal conflict within their minds because of some factors of their childhood. But like I said it is difficult to analyze and the topic is nearly taboo.

For someone who is straight with the typical "gender-mind" it is extremely hard to understand the mind of a homosexual and how, for example, a man can be turned on by another man and the first thought that comes up is that someone who is aligned that way must be mentally ill. It ought to be some developmental problem that causes homosexuality to arise because it is "against nature" as it is against the anatomical design. Such homosexual intercourse is unproductive and in natural ways it leads nowhere except into twisted pleasure.

A bisexual person can choose the right path because they seemingly are attracted by both genders and can thus follow God's design.

Yet mankind cannot read the minds and understand certain behavior so homosexuality is limited in understanding.

Whether a mental disease or innate birth defect we cannot oppress those who are homosexual, but it is arguable if we should openly encourage the behavior and cause it to be a widely accepted doctrine. It serves no purpose and why should homosexual marriage thus be initiated?

God bless you

TheQuranAloneRevolution

Greetings and Peace, all group

My comments are in red for easy reading.

424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not? Yes or no, please.

235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341097#msg341097

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

You clearly have no knowledge of the Arabic, 424 is talking about Women, from the start of the verse, all the way to the end.. So the answer is Yes--a homosexual relationship is beyond this.

424 And the independent from the women (feminine), except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex (feminine). As for those (feminine) whom you have already had joy with (feminine), then you shall give them (feminine) their dowries as an obligation (feminine). There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

What constitutes marriage is a A spouse= A Mate, Definition of Mate

Spouse = Zawj
Mate = Zawj ( i.e it is Same word, people translate them differently, Spouse = Mate (Arabic Zawj) )

"It is He who created you from one soul (MASCULINE) and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her (FEMININE). And when he covers her (i.e sex), she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, "If You should give us a good , we will surely be among the grateful." (7189)

God Created TWO PAIRS of of spouses, One male (zakar) and one Female (Onthaa).
5345 He is the One who created the two Mates, male and female

Thus the union and Marriage is between male + Female.

In fact, opon believers There is a punishment for homosexual activity for men, which is very peculiar because it is a different punishment than for adultery, and separated from regular punishment (i.e it does not call for lashings)

"The two of you (2 Masculine figures/ Masculine Dual) who commits lewdness shall be admonished. If they (masculine Dual) repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Most Merciful." (416)

So Believers with same-sex attraction need to practice self control and keep their chastity, unless they want to give marrying women a try.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

Commenting inside the box does not make your reply easier to read, please comment outside of the box
if possible.

Are you saying that 4/24 makes homosexual marriage legal? nope

From you

This applies to women, no mention is made of men. If you want to split hairs, two men or two women can't even have sex together--call it what you will, but it isn't ~really~ sex in a biological sense.

If not sex, what do you call it.

By the way, The surah you quote is "The Women".

The context is such

Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage?if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time?but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

God bless

peace

I would call them sexual acts, but not sex.

It is REALLY reaching to claim that a title modifies the contents. In law, titles of codes are for convenience only and do not modify the codes. Look at the various titles in AQ...do they all likewise modify the contents?

http//www.quranbrowser.com/html/chapter_names.html

I find nothing in 423-425 that prevents homosexual relationships.

Anyone who prevents two people from getting married seems to be encouraging adultery. I'd recommend making sure that one is on the firmest of grounds (NOT shaky tradition) before interfering between two mates.

From the perspective of fairness, it is flat wrong for a government to prefer heterosexual mates to homosexual mates. Is there to be equality for all, or are some people created more equally than others? Should we stand for fairness, or for bias?

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

You clearly have no knowledge of the Arabic, 424 is talking about Women, from the start of the verse, all the way to the end.. So the answer is Yes--a homosexual relationship is beyond this.

Thank you for clarifying. Homosexual relationships are beyond what is mentioned, and beyond what is mentioned is permitted. What do you know, the Arabic IS clear and easy to understand.

424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi