Road of the Patriarch
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I also strongly recommend people to read these three books. They contains some very interesting, sound and solid information, and facts. The books are based on facts, and then we can all draw our conclusions. There is no need to expect final answers. It is enough to find out what can NOT be true or reasonable.
Anyone who finds an interest in this topic should read the books, and if someone doesn't feel like reading them, I don't think they're that serious about the topic.
Peace
sun -
I believe many guys who post on this forum just have to educate themselves before posting and wasting space and time!
Salaam to all,
I believe many guys who post on this forum and apparently consider themselves as the most knowledgeable in the universe just have to educate themselves how to be more patient and less arogant with others who might have happened to only recently discovered things and have a lot of questions about them. Seems that the latter forgot the time when they used to be confused and following conjencture!!
Anyways, thanks virtueorvice man for wasting your time to provide the links to the books, at least you let me to save mine P >D
I also strongly recommend people to read these three books. They contains some very interesting, sound and solid information, and facts. The books are based on facts, and then we can all draw our conclusions. There is no need to expect final answers. It is enough to find out what can NOT be true or reasonable.
Anyone who finds an interest in this topic should read the books, and if someone doesn't feel like reading them, I don't think they're that serious about the topic.
Peace
sunThank you zulf for the recommendation, I only yesterday learned about the existence of these books and am very excited to read them, such a feast for the intellect to have on a table eat
Peace evryone
I'm sorry for my english. I'm from switzerland. I just want to share an interesting link www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com there's an other theory for the location of the holy land. Look at the topic Mekka is not Bakka ( pdf ).Thanks cana2010 for the link, I happened to read the document already some time ago, although the rejection of mekka made sense to me, their proposal that it is the Sinai mountain didn't, so I kept on searching until now. Will see where it goes from there.
God bless you all
M. -
I believe many guys who post on this forum and apparently consider themselves as the most knowledgeable in the universe just have to educate themselves how to be more patient and less arogant with others who might have happened to only recently discovered things and have a lot of questions about them. Seems that the latter forgot the time when they used to be confused and following conjencture!!
Salam,
I don't claim that I am a knowledgeable person.
But i have to let you know that before posting i went through all the posts by Pazuzu, trying to read them one by one. In addition I have studied all the three books mentioned above, and the reason i joined this forum was to know more about Pazuzu and their research.
Anyway, not every person has the same tactics and strategies!
By wasting time and space I was mentioning the amount of few precious posts that get lost among so many unrelated, unimportant and futile posts by many others!
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By wasting time and space I was mentioning the amount of few precious posts that get lost among so many unrelated, unimportant and futile posts by many others!
Salaam,
Also I wanted to let you knowt that I have read carefully ALL the posts on this thread and have considered asking the questions which I did, being aware that the thread is slightly inactive. The main point of my post were
- the analysis of horticulture (case study of olive and fig tree) in relation to the proposed by Pazuzu theory. After 2 days of research on his posts I am on the 15th page of his posts and yet still didn't find much analysis about those two trees apart from few mentions that they existed in Yemen without much references.
- Question of Bakka I think I found more or less convincing answer here
- request for more references on lingistics and the Theory of the Mother of Languages. As i have said, I am very interested with this topic and done some proper research on the roots of many languages of the world and their similarity to roots in Arabic and other semitic languages and I believe that I also could contribute to the discussion very valuable points if someone could be willing to hear my feedback. I thought that it would beatifully compliment pazuzu's research, but never mind if you claim that my posts are irrelevant, unimportant and futile!
Peace
M. -
Salaam,
Also I wanted to let you knowt that I have read carefully ALL the posts on this thread and have considered asking the questions which I did, being aware that the thread is slightly inactive. The main point of my post were
- the analysis of horticulture (case study of olive and fig tree) in relation to the proposed by Pazuzu theory. After 2 days of research on his posts I am on the 15th page of his posts and yet still didn't find much analysis about those two trees apart from few mentions that they existed in Yemen without much references.
- Question of Bakka I think I found more or less convincing answer here
- request for more references on lingistics and the Theory of the Mother of Languages. As i have said, I am very interested with this topic and done some proper research on the roots of many languages of the world and their similarity to roots in Arabic and other semitic languages and I believe that I also could contribute to the discussion very valuable points if someone could be willing to hear my feedback. I thought that it would beatifully compliment pazuzu's research, but never mind if you claim that my posts are irrelevant, unimportant and futile!
Peace
M.The valleys of Aseer and Yemen have also been known to harbor breeding grounds for locusts, up until not too long ago. (So when you think of the Old Testament stories speaking of locusts and famine which plagued the land of Msrim, you know where to look). It is also the region that sees the most rainfall in all of Arabia, both in winter and in summer. It is a land known for its wooded mountains (Tr), on which trees of many varieties grow, including Junipers, Lote trees Cedars, Acacia, Bramble, and Cyprus trees. Its mountain slopes have been made into stepped terraces ideal for agriculture, for over 4000 years, and are among the most fertile regions in the Middle East. Figs, olives, dates, grapes, pomegranates and a wide variety of nuts and seeds are grown there until today. The honey of Yemen (the legendary Cedar Honey) is greatly prized globally, and considered one of the finest brands of honey in the world. It is a land known for its rich livestock grazing grounds as well as for its mineral resources of iron, gold, and copper, some of whose reserves remain untapped. - The Road of The Patriarch
The advocates of the Palestinian r theory actually thought that the Qurn supported their argument, specifically in the following passage {And a tree which emerges from r Seen; it grows with oil and is a relish for those who eat}. Their argument is that olives do not - nor did they ever - grow on the so-called Sinai Peninsula, which means that the Egyptian r theory clearly contradicts the Qurn. Whereas, on the other hand, the Blessed Land (al-ar al-mubraka) - which they automatically assumed was Palestine - had plenty of olive trees all year round. In fact, the mountain in question, which overlooks Jerusalem, is called the Mount of Olives, and its peak is around 850 meters above sea level. Their conclusion was that r Seen is in fact the Mount of Olives.
What the proponents of the Mount of Olives didnt realize is that they had fallen under the influence of an old and fruitless Jewish debate regarding the true location of Mount Sinai, a debate that is still raging until today. In fact, some Jewish sects firmly believe that the Mount of Olives is Mount Sinai, where the Lord spoke to Msa. A more recent theory among Biblical scholars and academics has even placed Mount Sinai in the far north of Saudi Arabia, claiming that it is none other than the famous Jabal al-Lawz, a peculiar-looking mountain with a blackened peak, located near the city of Tabk, not far from the Jordanian border. Still, others have claimed that Mount Sinai is somewhere in the Negev desert! -Search for Pharaoh
The Books II and III are filled with place names the similarity between the names cited in Arabian Poetry and Geographical Books with the names in the Old Testament!
As far as I know, Bakkah and Makkah will be tackled in the upcoming books... anyway, I hope Pazuzu will shed more light!
Also you can see The Queen of Sheba and Biblical Scholarship by Bernard Leeman http//www.scribd.com/doc/86438965/2009-Queen-of-Sheba-and-Biblical-Scholarship
You might also be interested in reading Kamal Salibi's books if you can find them!
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I think that to pick a place just on the fig and the olive is to hazardous. Those species will grow anywhere where the climate is right and there is enough water. So, in a quite wide lattitude range. To think without proper verification that in the whole of the Arabian peninsula there could not be any fig or olives is too daring for my taste.
Even, classical Mekka, how can we be sure there weren't plenty of those?
If there was water, the climate is right. And there was water, otherwise there could no be habitation.Salaam
Salaam
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Peace all
The following are verses from the Quran which proves that the present MECCA in Saudi Arabia is not the Mecca of the Quran
And assuredly We have destroyed the CITIES/TOWNS AROUND YOU, and We have variously propounded our signs, that haply they might return 4627
What is the meaning of AROUND YOU (MECCA)
See the map of Mecca and find out how many villages/towns/cities were around it. Were there any TOWNS around MECCA destroyed by Allah? Can the above statement be validated by history and archaeology of Mecca? You won't find a single place being destroyed by Allah around MECCA.
Is it not a WARNING for them (to observe) how many generations We destroyed before them, amid whose DWELLING places they do WALK? Lo! Therein verily are Signs! Will they not then heed? 3226
Is it not a WARNING to such men (to call to mind) how many generations before them We destroyed, in whose DWELLINGS they do WALK? Verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding 20128
Is there any archaeological proof that the people of Mecca were walking in the DWELLINGS wich was destroyed by Allah before? Was MECCA or around MECCA destroyed by Allah?
And indeed they have come upon the town (town of LOUT, supposed to be in Jordan, some 1400 kms away from Mecca) whereon was rained the fatal rain. Can it be that they have not seen it? Nay, but they hope for no resurrection 2540
The people of Mecca saw the ruins of the people of LUT. How did the people of Mecca saw the ruins of Lut when it was under the DEAD SEA) If Jordan is the destination of the people of Lout then where should be the location of the following prophets
"And O my people! let not my dissent (from you) cause you to sin, lest ye suffer a fate similar to that of the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih, nor are the people of Lut far off from you 1189
Prophet Shuaib proclaimed to his people that the people of Noah, Hud, Salih and Lut are NOT FAR AWAY FROM YOU and this means that the people of Shuaib were the successors to these people and knew the stories of the said prophets because their dwelling place was not far away from each other. If Lut was in Jordan then the rest of the prophets should also be in Jordan but according to the verses of the Quran and the historical data available there is no doubt that all these prophets were never in Jordan but old Yemen.
And surely (the town of Lout) it is on a road established /that still abides 1576
So We took retribution from them (Lut and Shuaib), and indeed, both are on a clear highway 1579
If the town of Lout is under the Dead Sea in Jordan, then why Allah is saying that it is on a road established and on a highway?
You pass by {their habitations (of Lout)} (IN JORDAN) in the morning and by night will ye not understand 37137/138
Is it possible to see the ruined town of Lout in the morning and at night while Jordan is located at a distance of 1400 kms from Mecca?
And ye dwell in the dwellings of those who had wronged themselves and it had become manifest unto you in what wise We had dealt with them, and We had propounded for you similitudes. 1445
In whose dwellings the people of Mecca were dwelling? Of Noah, Hud, Salih,or Shuaib? TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA it was MANIFEST in what way Allah dealt with the prior people. Is the verse applicable to the people of Mecca.
The people of Mecca nor the Prophet knew about the previous prophets and people
Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous 1149
We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an before this, thou too was among those who knew it not. 123
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots 12102
We relate to you such accounts of earlier towns some of them are still standing; while others have ceased to exist; 11100
And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers 11120
Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence 2099
The prophet and his people were unaware of the stories of the people and the messengers of the past and it is Allah who is relating the prophet their stories through Quran and in the same Quran the above fabricated story of Abraham, his wife Hajar, the Zam Zam is not mentioned. The absence of the story in the Quran, the prophet and his people?s unawareness of the stories of the past messengers and its people are a clear indication that the above story is 100% fabricated. The truth is that Abraham never put his foot on the soil of Mecca but somewhere in Yemen. We find the story of Abraham arguing with his father, praying for his father?s forgiveness, Abraham breaking the idols, Abraham being thrown into the fire, Abraham migrating with Lout, Abraham pleading for Lout?s people, Abraham settling his SONS in a valley, Abraham raising the foundation of the Kaaba (traditional translation) but what is surprising is that the story which is the foundation of Islam is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. The Quran says that the prophet was unaware of the stories of the past and the above story of Abraham is also not mentioned in the Quran, but the pro hadithers say that the above story was related by the prophet and thus by proclaiming this, they are contradicting the statement of the Quran. Anything that is not mentioned in the Quran should be considered as a conjecture and should be discarded.
And (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud! (Their fate) is manifest unto you from their (ruined and deserted) dwellings. Satan made their deeds seem fair unto them and so debarred them rom the Way, though they were keen observers 2938
The ruined dwellings of Aad and Thamud were manifest to the people of the First House (MECCA/KAABA) but unfortunately these towns were located in YEMEN.
That is from the stories of the Cities (of Noah, Hud, Salih, Lout, Shuaib, Moses) which We recount unto thee of them some are standing and some mown down 11100
Some of the above towns did exist during the period of the prophet while some were mown by the pass of the time.
The above verses disqualifies Mecca / Kaaba as the claimant of the FIRST HOUSE
For we are going to bring down on the people of this township (LOUT) a Punishment from heaven, because they have been wickedly rebellious And assuredly We have left thereof MANIFEST SIGN for a people who reflect. 2934/35
So THOSE ARE THEIR HOUSES desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a SIGN for people who know2752
The RUINS of the previously destroyed DWELLINGS were the manifest SIGN for the current inhabitants
Do you find such HOUSES around Mecca / Kaaba?
IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THE ABOVE VERSES ARE REVEALED IN THE CONTEXT OF SAUDI MECCA THEN GO AHEAD AND IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THEN THINK OVER IT.
I BELIEVE THAT THE ABOVE VERSES AND DISCOVERY OF THE TOWN OF AAD'S PEOPLE (IRAM /UBAR) NEAR OMAN / YEMEN BORDER AND SURAH AHQAF IS A POINTER TOWARDS YEMEN
Read more on UBAR / IRAM
http//harunyahya.com/en/Books/904/perished-nations/chapter/3291
Thanks
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I am not upholding that the Mecca of Qur'an is the one we are told it is today, but not because of the fig and the olive, those can be had in too many places to use it so selectively por Jerusalem or whatever, or for Mecca indeed. I do not think that is a very useful criteria.
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Peace be upon you all
If you all really want to separate the myths from reality of the peoples and religions of the ancient, please do yourselves a favor by reading this book The Christ in Egypt by D.M. Murdoch. In it you will find that, the myths of Christ and Jesus existed many millenia before the advent of present day Christianity and Judaism. If after reading this book with all its primary sources and archeological evidences and still give The Bible some credibility, then you are a hard people to convince.
Please read this book and tell us what you think about the the various theories going around regarding the patriarchs and the religions they brought with them.
Peace and Regards
almarh0m
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The advocates of the Palestinian r theory actually thought that the Qur?n supported their argument, specifically in the following passage {And a tree which emerges from r Seen?; it grows with oil and is a relish for those who eat}?. Their argument is that olives do not - nor did they ever - grow on the so-called ?Sinai Peninsula?, which means that the Egyptian r theory clearly contradicts the Qur?n. Whereas, on the other hand, the ?Blessed Land? (al-ar al-mubraka) - which they automatically assumed was Palestine - had plenty of olive trees all year round. In fact, the mountain in question, which overlooks Jerusalem, is called ?the Mount of Olives?, and its peak is around 850 meters above sea level. Their conclusion was that r Seen? is in fact the Mount of Olives.
What the proponents of the Mount of Olives didn?t realize is that they had fallen under the influence of an old and fruitless Jewish debate regarding the true location of ?Mount Sinai?, a debate that is still raging until today. In fact, some Jewish sects firmly believe that the Mount of Olives is ?Mount Sinai?, where the Lord spoke to Msa. A more recent theory among Biblical scholars and academics has even placed Mount Sinai in the far north of Saudi Arabia, claiming that it is none other than the famous Jabal al-Lawz, a peculiar-looking mountain with a blackened peak, located near the city of Tabk, not far from the Jordanian border. Still, others have claimed that Mount Sinai is somewhere in the Negev desert! -Search for Pharaoh
The Books II and III are filled with place names the similarity between the names cited in Arabian Poetry and Geographical Books with the names in the Old Testament!
As far as I know, Bakkah and Makkah will be tackled in the upcoming books... anyway, I hope Pazuzu will shed more light!
Also you can see The Queen of Sheba and Biblical Scholarship by Bernard Leeman http//www.scribd.com/doc/86438965/2009-Queen-of-Sheba-and-Biblical-Scholarship
You might also be interested in reading Kamal Salibi's books if you can find them!
Peace
thank you for the verses and references, I will look at them. My main point is that according to my understanding, if we assume that Yemen is the origin of montheism (and humanity for that matter) it should be only logical that the two important trees for humans, olive and fig (as even mentioned in Quran) would be originally found there. The verses given by you didn't really answer my question, but thank you for effort
I am not upholding that the Mecca of Qur'an is the one we are told it is today, but not because of the fig and the olive, those can be had in too many places to use it so selectively por Jerusalem or whatever, or for Mecca indeed. I do not think that is a very useful criteria.
May I dare to disagree with you. I don't know what methodologies you guys are using in determining the truth/falsehood or the facts/conjencture but I use the following
a) Reflecting what are the strong and weak points of the given theory in my general logical reasoning
b) if theory has more convincing strengths rather than weaknesses I will test it against verses from Quran that are relevant to the matterNow, according to my observation and study of Quraan, everytime Allah swears in Quran by something, that is indeed very important clue. Because in surah At Tin the swearing by the olive and the fig follows directly swearing by the City of Peace, then obviously (at least to ME) it means something very important and I wouldn't call it 'not very useful criteria'.
Of course I am not basing my research only on this but this is also a test question and have to answer it..
Obviously the matter here is not where the olives are cultivated now but where they appeared FIRST (I remember that according to OT, Noah sent a dove away from the ark and it came back with the olive branch, this story rings a bell from Quran but I'm not 100% sure, so there is another clue!!!).Because in my first post I have mentioned that according to Wikipedia, the first and the oldest traces of olives and figs were found more or less in Palestine and Jordan, my Question to you, the truth seekers, was what do you know about this matter in Yemen, I believe that it would be possible to find even older traces over there, but is my assumption backed by any decent archeological discovery/references or not?? I would appreciate proper references or links to such discoveries, if you have any, instead of going on about how unimportant my question is.
Thank you
M. -
The thing is I do not see why in order for God to swear by anything in the Qur'an those things in order to matter should be the oldest specimens of them, why not gthe most abundant or the best or some other which were notorious for some other reason? How could we know anyway which were the first? Not even the traces proove anything. The fact that you find the oldest traces yet found, that does not proove that there were no others before of which there are no traces, or that later on older trace smay be found.
Also those mentions may be also symbolical. The Qur'an speaks of the olive tree which is neither from the east nor from the west. Why no think that it may be of that kind of olive tree that it is speaking about?
I did not mean to slight your ideas, I just do not see how God swearing by the fig and the olive proove a particular place fig and olive being widespread.
Salaam
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Agreed.
We need to be watchful about our own assumptions.
Like when researchers say that there are no evidence for X.... well, just because there currently are no evidence only means exactly that. Lack of evidence is absolutely not the same as evidence of the opposite. Lack of evidence often just means that X has not been studied properly as yet.We'd never be able to establish what were the first fig and where they were, because it is impossible to record every inch of the planet at every time of the past history. Also, why assume we're looking for the first appearance of fig? I don't think the species fig (or whatever we'd be talking about) never existed before the events of the so called holy books. So we should be pondering WHY we are looking for exactly that which we are looking for.
Peace
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Salam
I am refreshing my Brother Pazuzu, interesting thread. Now, the Quran use the word BILAD for the area where Kinanah is / was. This word does not seems to mean LAND, but something else. This word is mentioned in the Quran as follows
(21267) baladan a city
(31967) l-bildi the land
(75715) libaladin to a land
(7581) wal-baladu And the land
(14357) l-balada city
(1674) baladin a land
(3599) baladin a land
(40413) l-bildi the cities
(503612) l-bildi the lands
(8986) l-bildi the cities
(89114) l-bildi the lands
(9014) l-baladi city
(9024) l-baladi city
(9532) l-baladi city(25493) baldatan (to) a land
(27917) l-baldati city
(341517) baldatun A land
(43119) baldatan a land
(50115) baldatan (to) a landThe Quran tells us that,
The Bless Land was in the Bilad
Abraham sojourned to the Bilad
Saba was in the Bilad
Our resurrection will be at the Bilad.
In order to comprehend what i have written, please read Pazuzu's thread below
Coincidence # 6 Hebron
(This is actually #6. I must have miscounted earlier on)
There are less than 1,000 Jewish settlers living in the town of ?Al-Khaleel? today, most of them having come from Europe or the USA, and they have been turning the lives of some 20,000 Palestinians into a veritable hell. These settlers, under the influence of the imperialist and orientalist interpretation of the Torah, absolutely REFUSE to believe the poor, simple Palestinians, who have never stopped telling the glaring truth, even though they do not have the linguistic or geographical proof to back their claims That Al-Khaleel is and has always been an Arab town, and was never known by the name of ?Hebron?, and that the name ?Hebron? which appears in the Torah has absolutely nothing to do with the geography of Palestine whatsoever, no matter how long the archeologists search for it.
But their cries have fallen on deaf ears, as the imperialists and orientalists have continued to imagine Palestine and its towns as the ancient theater of events mentioned in the Old Testament. And this imagination has led to unpardonable injustices and persecutions, which the conspiring West and the Zionist Arab regimes have never so much as raised a finger against. Yet it is up to us to uncover the truth of the matter. We MUST believe the Palestinians for no reason other than that what they have been saying is the truth, even though they lack the evidence to back it up. Their blatant denial of the name ?Hebron? as being related to ?Al-Khaleel? stems from their firmly-rooted knowledge and familiarity with the land of their birth, passed down from generation to generation.
The Torah tells us that Abraham the Hebrew (?Hebrew? meaning - he who crossed over - - from the wilderness of Arabia, towards the lush mountain oases of the Sarat Mountains), after having settled for a while in the land of the so-called Canaanites (which we have previously proven were none other than the sedentary Bani Kanana tribe, whose domain was the mountain slopes along the Red Sea coast), witnessed the death of his wife Sarah, in a place called ?Kirjat-Arba? (spelled ?Kirjatarba? or ?Kirjatharba? in some translations). And it tells us that this place was also known as ?Hebron?, which appears as in the Orientalist Arab translations
And Sarah died in Kirjat-Arba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her (Genesis ? 232)
Now, since we have postulated that the ?Land of Canaan? was actually the ?Land of Kanana?, in South West Arabia, then, in order for our theory to be correct, we must find evidence of a place called Hebron in that location. It must have been a very well-known place, and mention of it must be found in old Arabian records. But first, we must bear in mind that the original Squared Aramaic letters (which the so-called ?Hebrew? language STOLE and claimed as its own), were originally silent letters, and did not include any vowels. So, if we were to render the word ?Hebron? as it appeared originally (before the Masorite priests perverted the text through their ?accentuation? of the letters), it would be in the form of ?Hbrn? - . We also have to show that the name was associated to a place called ?Kirjat-Arba?.
And here is where another shocking truth has been uncovered
The ancient tribe of Bani Kananah did in fact know of a location called ?Hbrn?, which was actually rendered sometimes as ?Hebran?, ( ) and sometimes as ?Hebra? ( ).
Now, if we compare with , we will see that in terms of Arabic structure, the word is actually the same, once we remove the vowel.
In fact, this place was so popular to the ancient Arabs of the Asir region, that they mentioned it on numerous occasions in their poetry.
Yemeni poet Zayd-al-Khayl al- Tai?i (who died in the 9th year of the Hijra and who was famous for his many travels northwards), mentioned the place in one of his poems
Another poet, Al-Rai?i al-Numairy, also mentions the same place
From our understanding of the descriptions of this place by the Arab poets, we can conclude that Hebran - Hebron was a mountainous place that had fallen into desolation since very ancient times, and had become a den of wild beasts.
Have you heard of the famous Arab Jewish Rabbi by the name of ?Kaab-ul-Ahbar? ?
In case you haven?t, here is a briefing on him He was a prominent Jewish figure who lived during the time of Muhammad (p), and later ?embraced? Islam during the time of Abu Bakr. He was a Yemeni Himyarite Jew, most probably hailing from Sana?a - the capital of Judaism in Arabia. His title actually means ?the Kaab of the Clergy? - meaning the center/head / most prominent of their order. (This is an important clue as to what the word ?Kaaba? actually means). He is even mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
Here?s the link http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9105-ka-b-al-ahbar
Arab geographer Yaqoot al Hamwi (volume 2 - pages 244,245) relates to us the following concerning this Jewish Rabbi
" (ع ...."
Here is what al-Hamwi is telling us
"According to Kaab?ul Ahbar, The first to ever be buried in ?Hebra? was Sarah, wife of Abraham, who had lived in the general area, and who had bought the place for 50 Dirhams"
Now of course, we cannot be 100% sure that this story was in fact true. I have already told you that history is often mixed with legends. And commentators generally agree that many stories tend to attribute legendary events to actual real places. The poets of ancient Yemen did NOT invent place names in their poetry. This is because ?crying at the ruins? was deeply imbedded in their culture, and was a means of expressing sadness over long-lost glories and places that had turned to dust (the tented homes of their lovers, desert oasies, tribes that migrated away, etc...). They were showing emotion to long-bygone days, and VERY real places. This "crying" was later incorporated into Jewish culture, which we see in their ?Wailing Wall" ritual - further proof of where Judaism originated. So although the EVENT of Sarah?s death and burial somewhere in the desolation of Hebron-Hebran-Hebra may have been a local legend, the actual location was very much a real place. Or else how can we explain its mention attributed to a prominent Jewish religious figure, as related to us in the writings of a geographer of the caliber of Al-Hamwi?
Furthermore, the fact that the Jewish Rabbi of the 6th/7th Century A.D, Kaab -ul-Ahbar, knew of the story/legend of Abraham burying his wife (and then later on being buried HIMSELF) in a place called ?Hebra?, makes it very difficult to dismiss that he was not familiar with the place, and with the geography of the Torah in general. Furthermore, a Yemeni Jewish priest like Kaab - a real Semitic Jew - is more qualified to tell us where Hebran was located than all the Rabbis of Poland, Russia, and Lithuania, who are KHAZARI Jews of no relation whatsoever to the Children of Israel.
And if the Hebron of the Torah is indeed the town of Al-Khaleel in today?s Palestine, then why would Kaab, who was a YEMENI, mention it? Why would the Arab poets mention it? What relation did they have to Palestine?
Better yet, why is there a Hadith in Islamic folklore, which says that the prophet Muhammad (P), gave Tamim-al-Dari (one of the so-called ?companions?) a piece of land in a place called ?Hebran?, near ?Wadi al- Qura? (Valley of the Towns), some 300 kilometers south of Mecca?
What does the word ?Kirjat-Arba? mean? Could it be perhaps THE FOUR TOWNS? (The word ?Kirjat? is the same as ?Qiryat?, meaning ?town?. This is one of the thousands of words that the so-called Hebrew ?borrowed? from Arabic). Look at the map of ?Israel? today, and you will see names of towns that begin with ?Qiryat? (examples include Qiryat Shemona, Qiryat Yam, Qiryat Tivon, etc?). This phenomena also existed in Arabia, and continues until this day. The word, in the Eloquent (Arabic) is ?qaryah? .
Reflect please?on where the events of the Old Testament took place?
And if you?re still not convinced, here?s another one for you
Coincidence # 7 Macphela
What is even more shocking is that the Torah, in its mention of Abraham?s wife Sarah, talks about a cave by the name of ?Macphelah?, which served as a burial site. Here are the words of Abraham (P) himself, as reported by the Torah
That he may give me the cave of Machpelah, which he hath, which is in the end of his field; for as much money as it is worth he shall give it me for a possession of a burying place amongst you (Genesis ? 239)
To summarize the story, is appears that Abraham bought a small patch of prairie land and a nearby cave somewhere in the desolate wilderness of Hebran-Hebra, from a man named Ephron son of Sohar. (The Arabic rendering of the name is 3afroun bin Sawhar - I think it?s a no-brainer). And, as was the old Yemeni tradition, buried his wife in the cave, which the Torah calls ?Macphelah?.
In his book ?The Bible Came from Arabia?, Kamal Salibi, who visited the region of Hebran in Saudi Arabia, in the early 1980?s, and spoke with the locals there, brings to our attention the following
Below is an old map of the region taken from a Saudi gazetteer in 1977. You can see the town of Al-Miqfalah, barely 50 kilometers east of Al-Qunfudha, a once prominent Saudi town on the Red Sea coast, some 300 Km south of Mecca. Not only that, but the region ?coincidently? happens to be mountainous, and full of caves, and the stories of prophets buried there have been local legends for centuries uncounted.
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Old map of the Asir region, showing the site of al-Miqfalah (in relation to Makkah)
Blue circle Miqfalah
Red circle Al-Qunfudha
Orange circle Misrama
Black square MakkahOf course, no one in the world listens to these legends, as the memories of the people living in Asir and Yemen are viewed as no more than baseless ranting. Instead, the world has gone on imagining Palestine as the theater of events that never happened there - events which archeologists have disproved time and time again.
The ruins in the Asir region (which the Zionist Saudis have been hiding from the public media), date back to as early as 3500 BC. The towns in that region (the ?Qaryats?) have maintained their names at least since the 7th Century BC. So you can bet that the name ?Miqfalah? existed since the Babylonian exile era, when the Jewish scribes corrupted the Torah for the first time, distributing "Promised Lands" to their descendants as a revenge on the world for the suffering and destruction that were perpetrated against them by the Assyrians (Remember REAL places as theaters for possibly legendary events).
It also shows you how all the descendants of Abraham (P) actually lived in the same region, and that the ridiculous stories that the Muslims believe in, which separate between Abraham?s progeny, placing some in the Levant and others in Arabia are all LIES.
The very scarce archeological digs in Yemen, for example, have demonstrated the habit of burial in caves since the most ancient of times. This agrees with the old traditions of that country, as well as their legends (for example, there are folk stories in Yemen, transmitted from generation to generation, telling of the burial of the Prophet Hud in a cave north of Hadramaut. Also, the prophet Shuaib is believed to be buried in a cave located in a mountain that was named after him Jabal al Nabi Shuaib, which happens to be the tallest peak in all of Arabia). You can read about these legends in such books as ?Al Tijan fi Muluk Himyar" (The Crowns of the Kings of Himyar) by Wahb bin Manbah, and ?Akhbar al Yemen? (Tales from Yemen) by Obaid bin Sharia al Jurhumi. The burial of prophets, kings and heroic figures in caves have been a part of Yemeni culture for many generations.
Coincidence # 8 Mamre
We have seen so far, that Abraham migrated from his original homeland, which was NOWHERE near Iraq, towards a land that Allah described as ?blessed to the worlds?. This blessing existed since the time of Abraham (around 1700 BC), and had nothing to do with Jerusalem (which didn?t even exist back then), nor with Mecca (which also didn?t exist), and certainly had nothing to do with Christianity nor Judaism. It was land full of trees, fruits, flowing mountain streams, and immense resources. By now, you have probably figured out where that mountainous land was.
Allah led the Patriarch to the location of the Sacred Valley - The Bayt. (The same valley in which Allah would later address Moses, on the slopes of "al-Tur". And there, very near to that valley, Abraham set up his tents.
But what was the original place he settled in called? (According to the Torah).
Let?s read
Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the oaks of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD (Genesis ? 131
A bit further down we have
So the field of Ephron which in Machpelah, which before Mamre, the field and the cave which in it, and all the trees that in the field, which within all the surrounding borders, were deeded (Genesis - 2317)
Mamre, which is in Hebron, and near Macphelah?
Has the city of Al-Khaleel in current-day Palestine ever been connected to a place called Mamre? I defy anyone on this planet to bring me proof of this claim. The Palestinians themselves, who lived in that land for generations until the KHAZAR PIRATES came and took it from them, have never heard of the name ?Mamre? in association with the occupied city of Al-Khaleel. Their elders know very well that this mysterious name was introduced by force onto their land.
But the Bani Kananah of Arabia knew of such a place. And they sang many legends about it in their poetry, describing it as wilderness place where ancient Arab heroes and warriors would rest in the shade of trees, and where mystics and oracles would commune with the gods.
In fact, the Torah relates to us an extraordinary event that took place in that copse of oak trees. Here it is
Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 "Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 "And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead and make cakes." 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. 9 Then they said to him, "Where Sarah your wife?" So he said, "Here, in the tent." 10 And He said, "I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son." (Sarah was listening in the tent door which behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, "After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?" 13 And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I surely bear since I am old?' 14 "Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son." (Genesis 18 1 - 14)
This same story appears in the Quran, albeit in slightly different details.
1- No names of places are mentioned, nor any copse of oak trees.
2- The name of the wife who laughed as she received the tidings is not mentioned.
3- The guests who visited Abraham were very unusual in appearance and behaved very strangely, causing Abraham to have some fear in his heart.
4- The guests did not even touch the food.Here is the uncorrupted version of this story
{Has the narrative of the noble guests of Abraham come to you? * When they entered upon him, they said ?Peace!?. He said ?Peace, O people unknown! * Then he went to his family and brought a fat calf. * He offered it to them, he said ?Do you not eat?? * He then became fearful of them. They said ?Do not fear?, and they gave him good news of a knowledgeable son * His wife then approached in amazement. She slapped upon her face, and said ?A barren old woman!?}?
Elsewhere in Allah?s book, we read the same story again, and get a new perspective (note how the two perspectives complete each other, forming an independent whole)
{And Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they said "Peace" He said "Peace," and he made no delay in bringing a roasted calf * But when he saw that their hands did not reach towards it, he mistrusted them, and he began to have fear of them. They said "Have no fear, we have been sent to the people of Lot? * And his wife was standing, so she laughed when We gave her the good news of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob. * She said "O my! Shall I give birth when I am an old woman, and here is my husband an old man? This is indeed a strange thing!" * They said "Do you wonder at the decree of Allah? The mercy and blessings of Allah are upon you O people of the Sanctuary. He is Praiseworthy, Glorious."?
We understand, from the above, that the guests of Abraham were unfamiliar and behaved strangely. The word that Abraham used to describe them was ?munkaroon? (plural of munkar), which means simply that strange / unknown / unfamiliar. Also, not eating the food of the host was considered an insult (and still is), in Arabian culture. We also understand that Lot?s town was nearby, and that the messengers were going there to bring down the wrath of Allah on that place. So, Lot?s town is not far from Hebran - Hebra, which itself is near the Oaks of Mamre (sometimes spelled ?Mamra?), which is also near the Kirjat-Arba (the ?Four Towns?). The region is no more than 300 KM south of Mecca.
Please keep this in mind, for later on, when we finally pinpoint where Muhammad (P) was initially located.
What do the ancient Arab poets say about Mamre-Mamra?
Read this and gawk
Yemeni poet A?mr bin Maad Yakreb (more famous by the name Karb al-Zubaidi) wrote
He is remembering past events of a great battle that took place between the tribes of Hamadan and Zubaid (the poet?s own tribe), where their foes, the Hamadani warriors, took refuge in a mountainous vale full of trees. And the day of that battle was called ?Yawmu Mamra? (The Day of Mamra). The verse also mentions the very famous Asiri tribe of Mazen (These events took place during the first or second century A.D. at the latest). In fact, the tribe of Bani Mazen in southern Saudi Arabia, were located in and around the city of Abha, and the name is still - until today - very famous there. If you don?t believe me, type in (Bani Mazen) in the search bar, and see what you get DOZENS of links associating this tribe to the city of Abha, which is 2000 Km above sea level (it will only work if you make the search in Arabic ). Where is Abha? Look at the map below, and see how close this town is to the region depicted in the previous map
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Blue circle Al-Qunfudha
Red circle Abha
Green circle Najran
Black circle MakkahAnother poet, known simply as "Zhul-Rimma", also mentions the same legendary place - The warrior?s solace of Mamra.
Note how often the Yemenis use the pronoun ?Zhu? or "Zhul" in their names. Over 30 Yemeni kings were labeled as ?Zhul - something" ( Zhul? Azhar , Zhu Nawwas , Zhu Raydan, Zhu Jayhan, etc? ). Also, prophet "Zhul? Kifl" mentioned in the Quran was obviously a Yemeni. What about "Pharaoh"? The Quran calls him "Far?oun Zhul? Awtad" , meaning Far?oun of the Tent Pegs (denoting he was no more than a tribal chief).
The list goes on and on?
Every time you encounter a name that begins with ?Zhul? or ?Zhu?, you can rest assured it?s Yemeni.
Here?s what "Zhul? Rimma" says about Mamre-Mamra. If you can read Arabic, you will immediately note how outstanding the description is
I just wish you folks could read what I?m reading, because this is absolutely earth-shattering.
No words in English can do justice to these timeless verses?poetry that comes from the soul. In the second line, he is describing the desolate grove of Mamre as a location to the south of the resting place of the Heroes of Yemen (The cavern graveyards). In the third line, he describes how difficult and treacherous the mountain paths leading to it can be. Finally, in the fourth line he describes the vestiges of an Ethiopian campaign in the region, and the destruction it left behind. Does this ring a bell? Who was the leader of this Ethiopian excursion against the south of Arabia? (Scratch your heads a little, and you?ll get the answer. This is another major clue as to where Muhammad was located).Here is what a third poet, Kaab bin Zuhair (a pre- Islamic poet) says of this legendary tree grove
Again, we have a description of ?Mamra of the Sarat??In the heart of Asir?The greenest, most fertile, and most river-abundant region in all of Arabia, and in the past, the heart of the incense and myrrh trade routes that ran along the slopes of the Sarat Mountains.
It is the same region and the same trade routes mentioned in the story of Joseph.
And they sat down to eat a meal. Then they lifted their eyes and looked, and there was a company of Ishmaelites, coming from Gilead with their camels, bearing spices, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry down to Misraim (Genesis 3725)
And their father Israel said to them, "If so, then do this Take some of the best fruits of the land in your vessels and carry down a present for the man -- a little balm and a little honey, spices and myrrh, pistachio nuts and almonds (Genesis 4311)
If there is any land in ancient history (before Jerusalem...before Mecca...before Christianity and Judaism) that was blessed to the world, that would be it. There is not a single spot on this entire planet where you will find the names Mamre - Hebran - Miqfalah - all together bundled up in the same region, other than Asir.
Asir , the theater of the Old Testament, was the cradle of all civilizations, and the land of the prophets. And the Muslims who keep insisting that the Levant was the land of the prophets are deluded to the point of insanity.
And the story of Abraham and Sarah, their tribulations and wanderings in the wilderness looking for a place to settle, their digging of the ?Well of Fullness? (Bir? Shabba3a), at the Holy Bayt (the sacred vale where Adam first descended from the earthly paradise high up in the Sarat Mountains) is a 100% ancient Arabic folkloric tale that has been told and retold by the people of that region for over 3000 years.
It has nothing to do with Palestine whatsoever. And the Palestinians have been right all along. The city of Al-Khaleel is NOT the Hebron of the Torah.
And God only knows who is buried there in that catacomb they call ?The Tomb of Abraham?.
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The alleged site of Abraham's tomb in "Hebron", Palestine
Could all these be coincidences?
To Be Continued..
(Next, we will look at the issue of Lot, and the peoples of Ad and Thamud.